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Offline emski

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Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« on: September 23, 2014, 02:10:38 PM »

In response to Bytemaster's chess DAC proposal that can be found here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9199.0

Here is my proposal:
Two account types: Players and Gamblers.
Players have ELO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) and compete against each other in direct 1v1 chess battles. Possibly tournaments etc...
All the games are played on the blockchain all the moves are transactions signed by respective Players' private keys.
Before each game a winning odds are calculated based on the Players' ELO. Gamblers can bet on the winner and any other statistic (who will get first piece, what will be the next move, how many turns to check (mate), etc) .
2% of all bets go to the winner.
1% of all bets go to the loser.
In case of a tie each player gets 1%.
2% are burned. (3% in case of a tie).

This way we have a Game with verifiable players, ELO, ratings and so on. Just as competitive as anywhere else. And as the players take some of the fees -> there are some rewards for them.
However, player moves are feeds for the Gamblers, where the actual money are.

Thoughts ?

PS: Of course the Players should be public figures , maybe real chess players who play for honor and will not cheat in order for some Gamblers to benefit.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 02:12:38 PM by emski »

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 02:24:11 PM »
How to deal with bots, or players open chessmaster on the side and play always the best moves in order to win the game?

I would love a DAC like this to be implemented but I can't imagine how you could make it a fair game between real players.

Offline emski

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 02:34:31 PM »
How to deal with bots, or players open chessmaster on the side and play always the best moves in order to win the game?

I would love a DAC like this to be implemented but I can't imagine how you could make it a fair game between real players.

It doesn't matter if the player has opened chess bot. You don't need a fair game. You need game's feed.

Of course this could be easily checked the same way they do it on tournaments -> run a lot of chess engines and check if player's action are identical. However this should be external to the blockchain.

The main thing here is for the players to be public and trusted. They shouldn't conspire with Gamblers. The bigger danger to this model is Players "selling" games not Players using chess engines. You can easily exchange Chess with GO for example -> computer engines there are significantly worse than (good) human players.

Offline serejandmyself

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 02:47:00 PM »
GO would defently be more interesting in your idea then chess. But why not implement both of the ideas into one? (the 2 dacs)
btsx - bitsharesrussia

Offline emski

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 02:50:11 PM »
GO would defently be more interesting in your idea then chess. But why not implement both of the ideas into one? (the 2 dacs)

There shouldn't be limit. You could have a DAC with many games into the blockchain.
What is important in this model is that real players provide feed for the Gamblers. And Gamblers provide funds for Players. And the wheel is turning.

The question is who will implement that. Ideas are cheap, labor on the other hand is not.

Offline serejandmyself

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 02:58:10 PM »
i dont know i would make both into one, in fact from what i understood from BM the chess DAC will implement what you wrote (correct me please if im wrong). As for ideas - you are right 100% - we all have ideas here, but not anyone can implement them.
btsx - bitsharesrussia

Offline emski

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 03:05:33 PM »
i dont know i would make both into one, in fact from what i understood from BM the chess DAC will implement what you wrote (correct me please if im wrong). As for ideas - you are right 100% - we all have ideas here, but not anyone can implement them.

The idea BM explained is without Players. Gamblers will compete to "Buy" future moves for each "Player". I don't like that concept (at least into gaming perspective) but this is my opinion.

As for the implementation -> there are a lot of people able to implement that (given the functionality III has already provided). However it requires some (a lot of) free time and dedication that not everyone could afford.

PS: Of course BM's idea lacks the downside of Players "cheating" by arranging games. Everything is on the blockchain and there is no risk for anyone to rig the results.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 03:08:09 PM by emski »

Offline serejandmyself

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 06:21:33 PM »
i dont know i would make both into one, in fact from what i understood from BM the chess DAC will implement what you wrote (correct me please if im wrong). As for ideas - you are right 100% - we all have ideas here, but not anyone can implement them.

The idea BM explained is without Players. Gamblers will compete to "Buy" future moves for each "Player". I don't like that concept (at least into gaming perspective) but this is my opinion.

As for the implementation -> there are a lot of people able to implement that (given the functionality III has already provided). However it requires some (a lot of) free time and dedication that not everyone could afford.

PS: Of course BM's idea lacks the downside of Players "cheating" by arranging games. Everything is on the blockchain and there is no risk for anyone to rig the results.

No, no, no - its not - thats what i thought at the begining. Its about both a game and betting. Re read the whole thread if you can again mate.
btsx - bitsharesrussia

Offline emski

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 08:42:14 PM »
No, no, no - its not - thats what i thought at the begining. Its about both a game and betting. Re read the whole thread if you can again mate.

BM's proposal suggest teams instead of Players. Chess (Go) is a two players game. There is a challenge of opposing another soul one on one. The essence of the game is lost when multiple people are voting/buying moves. A single player can use multitude of strategies against the opponent , using the personality and weaknesses of the opponent. Some Players' moves are even beautiful to follow.

I think that there should be real Players playing the game(s) for rating and prizes (percentage from bets). I think the DAC shouldn't be only for Gamblers - It should be also oriented to Players -> ELO, tournaments, prizes.

Offline gamey

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 11:22:00 PM »


I think if you make a straight forward chess game on a blockchain there is no point in not adding wagering.  I think that bidding on moves might end up being very problematic.

The neat thing is if you implement one DAC, you've done 95%+ of the work on the other version.  So if someone did decide to write this, then we could likely see this variant along with the bidding variant.  (Which as an experiment I would like to see, but I would caution anyone assuming it will be a significantly profitable DAC.)   

Chess just has such little randomness to it, that I don't think it would be fun to gamble on.  Sports have randomness.  Poker/backgammon have randomness.  What Western poker players call Chinese Poker has randomness to it.   13, versions of gin, etc.  They all have randomness.  Chess doesn't.  No signficant luck, so no fun to gamble on. 
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline Stan

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Re: Alternative Chess DAC Proposal
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2014, 02:04:43 AM »


I think if you make a straight forward chess game on a blockchain there is no point in not adding wagering.  I think that bidding on moves might end up being very problematic.

The neat thing is if you implement one DAC, you've done 95%+ of the work on the other version.  So if someone did decide to write this, then we could likely see this variant along with the bidding variant.  (Which as an experiment I would like to see, but I would caution anyone assuming it will be a significantly profitable DAC.)   

Chess just has such little randomness to it, that I don't think it would be fun to gamble on.  Sports have randomness.  Poker/backgammon have randomness.  What Western poker players call Chinese Poker has randomness to it.   13, versions of gin, etc.  They all have randomness.  Chess doesn't.  No signficant luck, so no fun to gamble on.

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

 

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