Author Topic: How committed is the community to bitsharesX as opposed to the next "DAC"?  (Read 19917 times)

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Offline bytemaster

I'm well aware of the importance of network effects.  I think you underestimate how broken Bitcoin is.  Bitcoin would have to change in very big fundamental ways to stay competitive and I don't see it.  It's kind of like arguing that VHS tapes won't be replaced because they have the network effect.  I also think you underestimate how much more far reaching this tech is than "finding one coin to rule them all to replace Bitcoin."

Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

Does Bitcoin have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  Well it is becoming more dominant and more competitive compared to altcoins every day, despite its glacial technological evolution.  Usefulness drives adoption, not technology.

If Bitcoin is increasing in usefulness so much faster than any other altcoin, why will it have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  It's competitive superiority is increasing, not decreasing.

(I think BitsharesX might have a chance, toppling Bitcoin is a long shot, not a sure thing.)

You act as if the infrastructure built around bitcoin couldn't be adapted to BTSX very quickly.   Here is the little secret that gives BTSX an edge:  it works at almost any scale. 

Regardless of BTSX market cap users can settle and contract in dollars, gold, silver, etc while getting a higher yield than their bank.   At the end of the day BTSX produces real value while BTC consumes real value.    BTC network effect is based upon people building infrastructure around BTC hoping to make money in this industry.  Their infrastructure becomes more valuable with BTSX and thus they will support it.
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Offline questionsquestions

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Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

Does Bitcoin have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  Well it is becoming more dominant and more competitive compared to altcoins every day, despite its glacial technological evolution.  Usefulness drives adoption, not technology.

If Bitcoin is increasing in usefulness so much faster than any other altcoin, why will it have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  It's competitive superiority is increasing, not decreasing.

(I think BitsharesX might have a chance, toppling Bitcoin is a long shot, not a sure thing.)

The problem is Bitcoin is not growing the gap. Sure, it's getting more third party recognition, but the volatility is its undoing. No one (aside from speculators) will hold it and the 'killer-apps' for which it was touted (International remittance, value storage, microtransactions) have in practice shown to be unviable.

Now, that's not to say future developments (such as Open Transactions) won't remedy some of these short-comings, but don't forget Bitcoin was a 'proof-of-concept', and every aspect of its implementation (however clever) does reflect these limitations (hard coded magic numbers, monolithic code-base etc etc).

Bitshares is an evolution, and as such has learned from the real-world limitations that Bitcoin has exhibited. Whether all of the bases have been covered by Bitshares is another matter, but the very fact that they have managed to create an asset that is tracking one of the most stable currencies in the world (USD) and it seems to be working (1 BitUSD is worth 1.01 USD) is the killer feature that will allow Bitshares to supplant Bitcoin. All the uses cases that were envisaged for Bitcoin now become possible - very exciting.
 

Offline Empirical1.1

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I'm well aware of the importance of network effects.  I think you underestimate how broken Bitcoin is.  Bitcoin would have to change in very big fundamental ways to stay competitive and I don't see it.  It's kind of like arguing that VHS tapes won't be replaced because they have the network effect.  I also think you underestimate how much more far reaching this tech is than "finding one coin to rule them all to replace Bitcoin."

Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

Does Bitcoin have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  Well it is becoming more dominant and more competitive compared to altcoins every day, despite its glacial technological evolution.  Usefulness drives adoption, not technology.

If Bitcoin is increasing in usefulness so much faster than any other altcoin, why will it have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  It's competitive superiority is increasing, not decreasing.

(I think BitsharesX might have a chance, toppling Bitcoin is a long shot, not a sure thing.)

Because of centralisation of mining via pools, Bitcoin can be crashed in a heartbeat by getting to two people. Far from being decentralised its incredibly vulnerable, probably more so than most banks. It's also slow and expensive (inflation)

I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be replaced in the medium term. It's unique selling point was that it solved the disadvantages of centralisation and was private. In practice it's very bad at both for most.
It's not pulling away from the competition either despite global exposure and massive investment this year it's down and struggling. Also a 5 billion valuation is nothing these days. It's very vulnerable.
Bitcoin will be replaced by something decebtralised, private and less volatile. Even better if you can store and transfer the value of traditional mediums of exchange in a decentralised private way like BitAssets do.

However  if there was a sudden financial event it might benefit the most, so I hold some Bitcoin circa 18%. (Also despite the downtrend and volatility if you're staying in crypto it's more stable than most other choices if you don't want to follow them 24/7.)

Atm BTSX isn't a competitor as it's still new and in rapid development and is currently more CPOS than DPOS. + I guess they need the same merchant, PayPal type access as Bitcoin. But in general they're developing so fast that it's a few months away from changing everything.

Also who can compete with Daniel & Co?


Offline Agent86

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I'm well aware of the importance of network effects.  I think you underestimate how broken Bitcoin is.  Bitcoin would have to change in very big fundamental ways to stay competitive and I don't see it.  It's kind of like arguing that VHS tapes won't be replaced because they have the network effect.  I also think you underestimate how much more far reaching this tech is than "finding one coin to rule them all to replace Bitcoin."

Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

Does Bitcoin have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  Well it is becoming more dominant and more competitive compared to altcoins every day, despite its glacial technological evolution.  Usefulness drives adoption, not technology.

If Bitcoin is increasing in usefulness so much faster than any other altcoin, why will it have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  It's competitive superiority is increasing, not decreasing.

(I think BitsharesX might have a chance, toppling Bitcoin is a long shot, not a sure thing.)
Ok, I think I may have overestimated how much time you have spent researching.  I think we can agree to disagree.  I also never said BTSX toppling Bitcoin is a sure thing.

Offline mf-tzo

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If you support bitcoin fine. Keep supporting it but as long as the peg is proved to work (which i am 98% certain it will work with all the bots trading) why not invest your bitcoins to bitbtc and earn interest? A small % of your bitcoins changed for bitbitcoins I think will convince you, and if not you can withdraw back to real bitcoin any time you feel like..

Offline fussyhands

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I'm well aware of the importance of network effects.  I think you underestimate how broken Bitcoin is.  Bitcoin would have to change in very big fundamental ways to stay competitive and I don't see it.  It's kind of like arguing that VHS tapes won't be replaced because they have the network effect.  I also think you underestimate how much more far reaching this tech is than "finding one coin to rule them all to replace Bitcoin."

Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

Does Bitcoin have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  Well it is becoming more dominant and more competitive compared to altcoins every day, despite its glacial technological evolution.  Usefulness drives adoption, not technology.

If Bitcoin is increasing in usefulness so much faster than any other altcoin, why will it have to change in fundamental ways to stay competitive?  It's competitive superiority is increasing, not decreasing.

(I think BitsharesX might have a chance, toppling Bitcoin is a long shot, not a sure thing.)

Offline fussyhands

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...

In basket of goods.  In buying power.  Don't delude yourself.  Buying power of gold is highly volatile.

Offline oldman

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First BTSX isn't just a little better than Bitcoin; it's orders of magnitude and solves fatal flaws.  Bitcoin can't stay at the top given the competition. 

I think you underestimate the importance of incumbency and economic network effects.  Bitcoin gets the essentials done:  it allows you to send money through the internet much faster, cheaper, and without the limitations of the banking system.  Altcoins are useless because of low adoption.  As far as the rest of the world is concerned there is only one cryptocurrency:  Bitcoin.  That is what is being integrated into the world's financial systems and into retail and online payments systems, what the highest quality easiest to use wallets are tailored to, what the cryptocurrency ATMs are using, etc.  For most people its becoming easy to get and spend Bitcoin, but remains prohibitively difficult to use any altcoin.

To get high adoption you need a lot of people to adopt ONE altcoin simultaneously and stick to that ONE altcoin for an extended period of time, so there is a chance to integrate it with all the systems that will make it useful.  Which altcoin should we adopt?  A groundbreaking new altcoin comes out every few months.  It doesn't really matter how much better than Bitcoin each new altcoin is if there is another one coming out in a month that will steal the attention and momentum.

Meanwhile Bitcoin infrastructure continues to rapidly grow, and the usefulness of Bitcoin compared to every altcoin continues to climb exponentially.  Like it or not, Bitshares are currently useless to most people, and no amount of technical sophistication alone will change that.  And like it or not, the usefulness gulf between Bitcoin and all altcoins has been *growing*, not shrinking, even as technically superior altcoins come out.

I'm here because I think Bitshares X has a chance.  But it's only a chance.  It wouldn't take too many missteps to miss the chance.

The whole concept of Bitshares is precisely not to create another altcoin to compete with Bitcoin.

Bitshares upgrades existing assets with new features and benefits via cryptography and the decentralized ledger.

bitUSD etc. Are not an altcoins and will happily coexist with Bitcoin.

This is why Bitshares will succeed: Bitcoin will sell the masses on crypto-assets and BTSX will provide the diversification, yield and liquidity necessary for wide scale adoption.

The tech really is that good!

Offline Agent86

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First BTSX isn't just a little better than Bitcoin; it's orders of magnitude and solves fatal flaws.  Bitcoin can't stay at the top given the competition. 

I think you underestimate the importance of incumbency and economic network effects.  Bitcoin gets the essentials done:  it allows you to send money through the internet much faster, cheaper, and without the limitations of the banking system.  Altcoins are useless because of low adoption.  As far as the rest of the world is concerned there is only one cryptocurrency:  Bitcoin.  That is what is being integrated into the world's financial systems and into retail and online payments systems, what the highest quality easiest to use wallets are tailored to, what the cryptocurrency ATMs are using, etc.  For most people its becoming easy to get and spend Bitcoin, but remains prohibitively difficult to use any altcoin.

To get high adoption you need a lot of people to adopt ONE altcoin simultaneously and stick to that ONE altcoin for an extended period of time, so there is a chance to integrate it with all the systems that will make it useful.  Which altcoin should we adopt?  A groundbreaking new altcoin comes out every few months.  It doesn't really matter how much better than Bitcoin each new altcoin is if there is another one coming out in a month that will steal the attention and momentum.

Meanwhile Bitcoin infrastructure continues to rapidly grow, and the usefulness of Bitcoin compared to every altcoin continues to climb exponentially.  Like it or not, Bitshares are currently useless to most people, and no amount of technical sophistication alone will change that.  And like it or not, the usefulness gulf between Bitcoin and all altcoins has been *growing*, not shrinking, even as technically superior altcoins come out.

I'm here because I think Bitshares X has a chance.  But it's only a chance.  It wouldn't take too many missteps to miss the chance.
I'm well aware of the importance of network effects.  I think you underestimate how broken Bitcoin is.  Bitcoin would have to change in very big fundamental ways to stay competitive and I don't see it.  It's kind of like arguing that VHS tapes won't be replaced because they have the network effect.  I also think you underestimate how much more far reaching this tech is than "finding one coin to rule them all to replace Bitcoin."

Again, no one can promise you what BTSX or anything else will be worth in the future and that is why I'm suggesting you stay informed and if you see other 2.0 projects come along that you like, you are free to put your money where you like.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 12:48:43 pm by Agent86 »

Offline tonyk

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline matt608

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I've been reading though this very interesting thread where Charles Hoskinson voiced similar concerns as fussyhands about the focus of the developers on Bitshares-X vs other DACs, which makes me thing fussyhand's concerns are reasonable.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5033.0

Offline fussyhands

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First BTSX isn't just a little better than Bitcoin; it's orders of magnitude and solves fatal flaws.  Bitcoin can't stay at the top given the competition. 

I think you underestimate the importance of incumbency and economic network effects.  Bitcoin gets the essentials done:  it allows you to send money through the internet much faster, cheaper, and without the limitations of the banking system.  Altcoins are useless because of low adoption.  As far as the rest of the world is concerned there is only one cryptocurrency:  Bitcoin.  That is what is being integrated into the world's financial systems and into retail and online payments systems, what the highest quality easiest to use wallets are tailored to, what the cryptocurrency ATMs are using, etc.  For most people its becoming easy to get and spend Bitcoin, but remains prohibitively difficult to use any altcoin.

To get high adoption you need a lot of people to adopt ONE altcoin simultaneously and stick to that ONE altcoin for an extended period of time, so there is a chance to integrate it with all the systems that will make it useful.  Which altcoin should we adopt?  A groundbreaking new altcoin comes out every few months.  It doesn't really matter how much better than Bitcoin each new altcoin is if there is another one coming out in a month that will steal the attention and momentum.

Meanwhile Bitcoin infrastructure continues to rapidly grow, and the usefulness of Bitcoin compared to every altcoin continues to climb exponentially.  Like it or not, Bitshares are currently useless to most people, and no amount of technical sophistication alone will change that.  And like it or not, the usefulness gulf between Bitcoin and all altcoins has been *growing*, not shrinking, even as technically superior altcoins come out.

I'm here because I think Bitshares X has a chance.  But it's only a chance.  It wouldn't take too many missteps to miss the chance.

Offline fussyhands

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

Offline oldman

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Are there plans to make a BitBasket that will be pegged to the basket of commodities used to calculate the CPI?

This is perhaps a historic opportunity to create a universal currency pegged to the world average CPI... interesting concept.

Easy to implement and see if there's any interest.

Offline Stan

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read the paper!

Kind of long, but you will learn stuff that will serve you for life!

OK I read the paper.  It makes some sense.  I think many people over estimate the importance of a perfectly stable currency, compared to, say USD, which is slightly but predictably inflationary.  I don't think perfect stability will change very much.  (Indeed, as I'm sure you are aware, there are many economist who believe that mild but predictable inflation leads to better economic growth because it counteracts wage rigidity.) But compared to the currencies of failed states, or to Bitcoin, either USD stability or perfect stability would be a huge improvement in some respects.  On the other hand, I think much of Bitcoin's appeal is the possibility of making huge returns.  I think that is why a lot of people are invested in it, and why it is hovering around $400 instead of something that reflects its current transactional utility (i.e. something much much less, perhaps a couple dollars).

At any rate reading the paper did help me understand the vision of Bitshares X a little better.  If Bitshares BitAssets system stands the test of time it will give you the best of both worlds.  You can peg your money to USD or a commodity basket, or you can go on the wild ride and keep it as BTSX.  Personally, I don't see any reason to be an early adopter, and take all the risk of catastrophic system failure that that entails, if you are just going to peg your money to USD.  Might as well hold onto real USD in that case.  But down the road, if the system has shown itself to be robust, that will be a great feature.

And it makes Bitshares X the first cryptocurrency system that I know of that allows you to instantly send "USD" through a meaningfully decentralized network ("meaningfully decentralized" is meant to exclude the likes of Ripple).  That seems like a pretty big deal.

Are there plans to make a BitBasket that will be pegged to the basket of commodities used to calculate the CPI?

The thing that excites me is BTSX will enable "dial-a-yield". 

You can roll your own basket to achieve the mix of diversity, growth and stability you prefer.
...almost decoupled from the ominous common-mode risks of the current world financial system (WFS).

Now, what are the relative risks of the devil you know (WFS) and the devil you don't know (BTSX)?

I'm thinkin' 50/50, but you can dial that mix too.

Given the number of global financial black swans lining up on final approach since 2008,
the public perception of those risks vs. our risks may be headed in opposite directions.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 02:06:37 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.