Best MUSIC DAC launch model for 2014?

[luckybit]

Sounds great. I agree that a pre-sale would generate some buzz and give people another chance to get in. This seems like a fair revised allocation.

My only added suggestion is to not have the pre-sale drag on and on. AGS lasted for too long. I'd go with 30-60 days maximum unless you need more time to develop the product.

If people wanted to get in then what was AGS/PTS for? What about those people?

So now AGS/PTS has to compete with some presale operation? I can see the point that presales can generate hype but AGS/PTS already generated hype. Tell them to buy AGS/PTS.

Dilution is barely acceptable but I don't see any benefit to this idea. What exactly does it gain?

[luckybit]

well i am against the IPO. But I understand the need to raise capital for development. So if you do make an IPO I would like this to be in bitusd. This would be a very good chance to show to everyone how each DAC support the other.

Why raise any bitcoins or PTS? You want capital? Get it via Bitusd and convert that to usd when needed...

The IPO is pointless. If they just pre-allocate 30% to themselves it's the exact same effect. Once the shares hit the exchange they can sell off some of it.

So the question is why did they originally offer 45/45/10 and now they want to do 35/35/30?

They are asking for more money without justifying why it's necessary other than because they can.

[mf-tzo]

New investors can just buy PTS if they want to get shares prior to launching.

AGS investors invested in all DACS and gave away their liquidity long time ago. That's why I always think that these are the strongest hands.

IPO with bitusd will attract people that really want to help the DAC to succeed by supporting it even more and will not dump their shares either.

I don't understand why you think that an IPO raising bicoins will attract new people. New people will get attracted by buying PTS in advance as long as this is well communicated to them. i.e. How many will be the total shares, calculate exactly how many shares they will get with each PTS, help people estimate clearly in advance their profits based on expected market cap upon launching in order to understand the benefits if owning PTS and they make proper investment decisions...

Anyway, I am sure that you guys will come up with a good plan as always..

I would go for 45/45/5/5==> AGS/PTS/Foundation/Bitusd IPO

[luckybit]

If we go for a pre-sale. It will be a Bitcoin only AGS style one. Only shorter, 30 to 60 days yes.

I think only 10% should go to pre-sale. 20% to pre-sale is too high.

Also at what price should the presale be? It has to be higher than what PTS and AGS paid for it otherwise it's at the expense of PTS and AGS. PTS and AGS was like the initial pre-sale. People donated and got shares.

If there is another round then the shares should be more expensive. But I don't see why this is necessary.


Do you have expenses that require both 10% to the foundation and then another 20%? Basically you're saying the foundation should get 30% up front? I'm skeptical of this plan because you haven't established where the money should go, why it is needed, and why you think Bitshares Music could raise enough money in a presale to have it be worth it.

Also the whole presale thing seems like a completely unnecessary ritual. If you just say 30% goes to the foundation then you can just sell that. I think the presale idea is bad.

[graffenwalder]

well i am against the IPO. But I understand the need to raise capital for development. So if you do make an IPO I would like this to be in bitusd. This would be a very good chance to show to everyone how each DAC support the other.

Why raise any bitcoins or PTS? You want capital? Get it via Bitusd and convert that to usd when needed...

While this would be great, we shouldn't forget that we are still using test wallets, not a final product.
I think this would create a great barrier for new investors.

[mf-tzo]

well i am against the IPO. But I understand the need to raise capital for development. So if you do make an IPO I would like this to be in bitusd. This would be a very good chance to show to everyone how each DAC support the other.

Why raise any bitcoins or PTS? You want capital? Get it via Bitusd and convert that to usd when needed...

[tonyk]

As I can see the AGS style will be best choise, as example:
- Allocate 35% to PTS, 35% to AGS, 30% to a pre-sale
- As AGS: accept only BTC and PTS
- PTS which you will have after pre-sale will bring you Notes and can be counted as Foundation part
- Make pre-sale for 30 days, each day as auction 0.5% for BTC, 0.5% for PTS

This proposal is pretty good with the exception of accepting PTS- for your own good and the reasons explained well in previous posts.
Now the next step is to mentally accept the 'Music Foundation' is not getting any free share allocations. (i.e. no 10% reserved share). Getting the hard cash should be good enough. ( if you want some Notes, feel free to buy some in the IPO)
The 3rd step is to accept bitUSD (in addition to BTC) - the positives are numerous let's name a few:
- Hedge against possible (likely in my mind) BTC price movement;
- Support for the whole Bitshares eco-system (which your Music DAC is a part of now, and we all hope grown part of it);

[mf-tzo]

I wouldn't allocate 30% to presale. It's too much imo. Investors who participate in presale basically seek to short-term profit; they are dumpers. In addition, if we allocate too many Notes to presale, the average price will be lowered, especially given the situation that crypto-market is experiencing recession, and then this will generate negative effects on AGS/PTS holders.

And it is not 'only 5%' because initial suggestion was 45%. 15 out of 45 is a quite big difference.

I fully agree with that quote

[clayop]

- 30% AGS, 30% PTS, 10% foundation, 30% presale. This reduces AGS/PTS only by 5% but gives the presale folks a better (subjective) feeling of equality. I could even live well with 25/25/10/50 if that helps to receive disproportionally more funds and new community members! New community members will likely also be attracted to BTSX....

I wouldn't allocate 30% to presale. It's too much imo. Investors who participate in presale basically seek to short-term profit; they are dumpers. In addition, if we allocate too many Notes to presale, the average price will be lowered, especially given the situation that crypto-market is experiencing recession, and then this will generate negative effects on AGS/PTS holders.

And it is not 'only 5%' because initial suggestion was 45%. 15 out of 45 is a quite big difference.

[Frodo]

  for new allocation. Fresh money from presale will definitely help.
Concerning the bitcoin volatility why not exchange for bitUSD afer the presale?

[santaclause102]

Thanks cob for your open mind.

I don't know about the regulatory side of it. But in general: If there could be fatal problems regulatory wise then avoid them at all costs. If not a fund raiser is crucial to get starting capital.

I would do this:
- AGS stlye, daily auctions is great!
- 30% AGS, 30% PTS, 10% foundation, 30% presale. This reduces AGS/PTS only by 5% but gives the presale folks a better (subjective) feeling of equality. I could even live well with 25/25/10/50 if that helps to receive disproportionally more funds and new community members! New community members will likely also be attracted to BTSX.... Edit: I would reverse that a bit: New consideration: I don't know how aware people even are how much percent they get... (example maidsafe; I guess ppl just bought maidsafe; investors in safecoin get only 10% as far as I know). I'd still consider the 30/30/10/30 deal a balanced appraoch.
- I wouldn't allow PTS donations. This would be great for the community but it is price fixing (worked for AGS because the PTS price adapted (that also created a lot of criticism since PTS halved in price in January) to the its value in AGS donations) and will be received as "cheap recycling of PTS" outside of this community.
Another advantage: It would increase the commitment of the Bitshares foundation since there are a lot of PTS in the AGS fund.
Another disadvantage: It would reduce your initial working capital since PTS are not that liquid.
Maybe a solution would be to allow PTS donations but only reserve 20% of the presale to PTS. This would be a compromise of the ad/disadvantages above but still price fixing.   

Could you go into detail a bit how the notes of the BTS-Music-Foundation will be used? Or does "foundation" mean "bitshares foundation"?

[graffenwalder]

As I can see the AGS style will be best choise, as example:
- Allocate 35% to PTS, 35% to AGS, 30% to a pre-sale
- As AGS: accept only BTC and PTS
- PTS which you will have after pre-sale will bring you Notes and can be counted as Foundation part
- Make pre-sale for 30 days, each day as auction 0.5% for BTC, 0.5% for PTS

Before saying a potential yes to PTS donations. Please consider what this would do to the PTS price.

AGS style would mean snapshot of PTS when donation period is over.
We have seen PTS plummeting on days that relatively low BTC was donated.

Ergo such an announcement, would have a drastic effect on the current PTS price.

Also trolls would have fuel saying, that PTS was pumped on the initial proposal, just to be dumped after this.

[mf-tzo]

My initial thoughts are:

1. I don't feel that we are so much in a crypto booming. Especially with bitcoin price dropping from the beginning of the year

2. What happens if BTC drops in price much faster than notes? You will spend very fast all the bitcoins for future development and not raise so much money. Consider also the possibility that not many people learn or invest on the IPO so with few bitcoins, few people earn more shares and dilute PTS-AGS shareholders. This will create a bad image for the PTS and raise questions for their purpose in acquiring in advance shares for future DACs. I have already seen a lot of new members asking why to invest in PTS now and not wait when the DAC is launched.

3. You do give the opportunity to new people to participate through PTS. I don't understand why you think that an IPO will be different and will bring more members in our community. The same persons that are likely to invest through IPO might as well invest by buying PTS and keep them for the next DACs.

4. Definitely agree imposing a cap to the dilution from the delegates in order to avoid selling pressure.

5. Isn't the 10% of the Foundation sufficient for the development of the DAC especially if it is to be worth billions?

6. All in all I think that IPOs in crypto had their run. I read often in the news how IPOs scam investors etc etc so it might not be such a good publicity for the DAC as you intend but rather bounce against us.

All the above are just some initial thoughts so I may got many points wrong..

[testz]

As I can see the AGS style will be best choise, as example:
- Allocate 35% to PTS, 35% to AGS, 30% to a pre-sale
- As AGS: accept only BTC and PTS
- PTS which you will have after pre-sale will bring you Notes and can be counted as Foundation part
- Make pre-sale for 30 days, each day as auction 0.5% for BTC, 0.5% for PTS

[clayop]

Auction a day. Pure AGS style!

Good! But we should consider advantages and disadvantages of each presale style.

AGS style has no huge sell pressure because the presale price has variations. However, fairness issue can arise as like we have experienced in AGS (between late May and early July, AGS price was quite lower than other periods).

In contrast, auction a whole period (viacoin style) can resolve fairness problem because there is only one presale price. But if the presale price is lower than expected, a huge dump can happen in the near future.