Author Topic: BitNation - Governance 2.0  (Read 5436 times)

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Offline edilliam

I've met some of the Bitnation people in London. In fact I bumped into them again today at the London Bitcoin Expo. They are really lovely and I think their hearts are in the right place. It's going to be interesting to see how they progress technologically. I'll probably be popping along to their meetups every now and again to see how much common ground is between us and whether or not collaborations in certain areas are possible etc.

Offline Akado

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ít seems they're going forward with their ID thing. The concept is nice. It seems they messed up on their crowdsale though

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/blockhains-first-citizen-328
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:42:05 pm by Akado »
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Offline roadscape

Related article, interesting: The Fall and Fall of Bitnation

"News today has been covering the mass exodus of the entire Bitnation team. They have written letters criticizing the organization, how it was run, and its ethical foundations. It was the first project which attempted to implement a system of governance using decentralized technologies, and as of now appears to be little more than empty promises and a massive failure. Last I checked, they had raised approximately .4 bitcoin, or around $150. Hardly enough for a nation.
[...]
Henry Ford famously said that if he asked people what they wanted they would have asked for a faster horse. Bitnation is, even executed perfectly, nothing more than a faster horse."
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Offline CoinHoarder

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I don't see how the crowd sale is significantly different from Ethereum or Bitshares Music. I guess because it's being marketed like it's a security in a company? I'm not exactly sure if that is the reason for the resignation and I think it has to be more than that.

It is significantly different from Ethereum/Bitshares Music in that mass adoption is incredibly unlikely on multiple levels. Ethereum is coin/application agnostic just as Bitshares Music is genre agnostic. The kind of libertarian-like hands off approach they are taking is not really a popular political view point akin to the "free state project" inside the libertarian community. I think for this to gain mass adoption there would have to be some sort of political/governmental fallout. It doesn't seem that likely to be as disruptive as Ether or BTSM.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea but I think it has little chance of gaining mass adoption and thus being a good investment due to the barriers in ideology and the current governmental systems in place.

Edit: But I suppose you were speaking specifically as to the legality of the crowd funding aspect of it.. excuse my rant.. I just think this is a horrible investment. :)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:20:15 am by CoinHoarder »
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Offline luckybit

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I don't see how the crowd sale is significantly different from Ethereum or Bitshares Music. I guess because it's being marketed like it's a security in a company? I'm not exactly sure if that is the reason for the resignation and I think it has to be more than that.
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Offline CoinHoarder

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I'd like to see an easy explanation of what this is, after 5 min glancing through I still have no clue.

Government services on a block chain.. it is a good idea, it is a shame they didn't get legal guidance or do more due diligence on the crowd funding. Perhaps they will still be successful... either way I'm sure there will be more attempts at it as the idea has been floating around for a while.

I was/am a bit skeptical of it though seeing as though Swarm has over-promised and under-delivered thus far and it was mentioned up thread it is by the same team (or under the guidance of the same team.)

Quote
Bitnation is a Decentralized Organization (DO), a for-profit entity incorporated on the Bitcoin Blockchain through the CounterParty technology. Bitnation will offer a platform which includes an ID System, a Decentralized Application (DAPP) Library, a dispute resolution mechanism, insurance, diplomacy and security services and more, mostly through offering a small transaction fee on selected DAPPS downloads and Smart Contracts.

Through making it non-geographical and voluntary, we create a market that is fast moving and competitive allowing for innovation and improvement which the current nation state system is incapable of. Bitnation will aggregate services, both in-house developed services like arbitration, blockchain incorporation, marriage. Additionally, Bitnation will aggregate external services like education, healthcare, security. Services will be available both as independent services and in a collection of packaged services.

Our services will be accessible on any blockchain that is compatible, including but not limited to Bitcoin and Ethereum. The functions of Bitnation will be as “blockchain-agnostic” as possible to mitigate the risk of a 51% attack¹ or poor maintenance of a single blockchain.

As far as we are aware, Bitnation is the first attempt to build a DBVN.

¹ Learn Cryptography, www.learncryptography.com/51-attack/

3.1 Ƀitnation Overview

Bitnation aims to provide services a traditional government provides, including dispute resolution, insurance, social services, security, diplomacy and various packages. Bitnation will identify the best technology out there for our governance services, as well as vetting suitable subcontractors for non-technical governance applications via diplomacy and security.

Bitnation will negotiate prices to buy services in bulk, therefore making it cheaper for its customers to purchase the services from Bitnation than directly from a traditional provider, with a greater vetting of user interface and support. As an organization, Bitnation stands by its principle of being “Borderless, Decentralized, and Voluntary” at all times, having transparency with its plans and finances, as well as solely using and developing open source code.

The key-functionalities of the Bitnation technological platform consist of a P2P browser, an ID System, a DAPP Library with an API layer where everybody can download DIY Governance DAPPs or upload and give away (or sell) their own DAPPs. The dispute resolution and smart contract function key functionalities as well - which supports many other parts of the governance ecosystem in the platform.

However, to clarify some commonly asked question with respect to what we intend to provide, or not provide -- Bitnation will provide:

An ID system, including physical IDs, based on verification and reputation
A dispute resolution mechanism with voluntary choice of code of law, and arbitrator
Diplomacy, as far as global advocacy goes
Security, as in tools for organising voluntary neighbourhood security systems

Bitnation will not provide the following functions or services:

A diplomatically recognized “citizenship” enabling international travels (unless it reaches critical mass adoption)
A code of law (choice of code of law is entirely voluntary)
Physical law enforcement. Bitnation’s primary crime prevention method is its reputation system²
A blockchain or a currency. Bitnation will rely on different blockchains, and will be using Bitcoin as the standard currency, and over time, move to accept other currencies such as Litecoin, Peercoin, Dogecoin, and other coins available on CounterWallet and digital currency exchanges.

Quote from their whitepaper: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZiIZ-rmI79HPNbfJ1AXwcgoe8TKMoUMatDf7YfO5LZw/edit
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 04:22:11 pm by CoinHoarder »
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Offline CLains

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I'd like to see an easy explanation of what this is, after 5 min glancing through I still have no clue.

Offline yellowecho

Sounds like their team launched the crowd sale without doing their homework.  Correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding that BitShares has spent a lot of time with lawyers and our friends at Dacsunlimited in Hong Kong to ensure legality on crowdfunding and product launching efforts.  BitNation seems cool and a great fit within BitShares... though I'm not sure what they offer that BitShares DACs cannot.
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Offline luckybit

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Some critiques on bitnation from an former member:

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/17285/why-we-wont-be-a-part-of-the-bitnation-crowdsale/

This "critique" seems like it was made in a state of fear. Irrational fear of the SEC cracking down on blockchain entites.

This fear makes logical sense because election season starts soon but if you actually look at the actual level of risk it's low. You'll get a slap on the wrist, you'll pay a fine, but that fine if based on Satoshi Dice is likely to be under $100,000 for an operation that made millions. The fine shouldn't be so scary that people are afraid to even attempt to innovate because that is bad for science.

I highly doubt anyone violating the SEC is going to be sent to prison. I mean you never know because they did crack down really hard on Aaron Swartz but it's very unlikely that people will be going to prison. If you really believe Bitshares X could be worth billions, or if you really believe BitNation could improve the functioning of governance, then fear of the government seems to be a really odd argument to make.

You won't improve governance because you fear the SEC? Okay then you can resign and let people less fearful do it instead. Why write an open letter to spread all kinds of FUD and fear about the legality of crowd sales when not a single crowd sale except for Satoshi Dice has actually been fined? And Satoshi Dice was only fined because they took it further than almost everyone and also were about gambling which never is politically popular.

BitNation might or might not be ideal for the Bitshares community but we do have more in common with them than we have with the SEC.
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Offline xeroc

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Offline luckybit

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Governance utilities are where I have always hoped blockchain tech would take us!  Consensus-regulated governance, ie about the truest representation of democracy you could have.....with room for innovation!

You are probably right, they are unlikely to switch......which leave one enormous hole for Bitshares and DPOS to fill.  I know several of these governance type utilities are worked on already....but imagine the impact of unifying them!

Focus on decentralizing the energy grid. Distributed generation is strategically necessary for any kind of distributed governance.

Bitshares X is future proofed for these functions but again the problem is energy.
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Honestly I am a bit skeptical of Swarm. They have somewhat underperformed considering the amount of money they took in. Maybe they will turn it around though. I hope so, as other than AGS this was the other investment I was suggesting to people that could do well.

Their forums/Bitcointalk thread are pretty dead. I am not sure how well the token has done as it was just added to coinmarketcap.

I hate to throw a jab at them and then endorse them in the same breath, but if anyone has a good DAC idea it may be worth looking into as a form of funding: https://www.swarm.co/apply/

Marvelous idea - a centralized company which we should trust to help us create DACs. I mean shouldn't they lead the effort in being decentralized themselves?

Well, I was suggesting to use it as a source of funding for the development of a new DAC. They did raise a million+ worth of BTC. I wasn't suggesting they be in control of the DAC as that defeats the purpose of a DAC. Bitshares had some VC money go into AGS/PTS too..

I believe they are making a Swarm client, but it isn't available yet. They are using the money donated as some kind of VC fund apart from making a crowd funding platform as well.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 05:15:48 pm by CoinHoarder »
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Offline bitmeat

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Honestly I am a bit skeptical of Swarm. They have somewhat underperformed considering the amount of money they took in. Maybe they will turn it around though. I hope so, as other than AGS this was the other investment I was suggesting to people that could do well.

Their forums/Bitcointalk thread are pretty dead. I am not sure how well the token has done as it was just added to coinmarketcap.

I hate to throw a jab at them and then endorse them in the same breath, but if anyone has a good DAC idea it may be worth looking into as a form of funding: https://www.swarm.co/apply/

Marvelous idea - a centralized company which we should trust to help us create DACs. I mean shouldn't they lead the effort in being decentralized themselves?

Offline CoinHoarder

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Honestly I am a bit skeptical of Swarm. They have somewhat underperformed considering the amount of money they took in. Maybe they will turn it around though. I hope so, as other than AGS this was the other investment I was suggesting to people that could do well.

Their forums/Bitcointalk thread are pretty dead. I am not sure how well the token has done as it was just added to coinmarketcap.

I hate to throw a jab at them and then endorse them in the same breath, but if anyone has a good DAC idea it may be worth looking into as a form of funding: https://www.swarm.co/apply/
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Offline tonyk

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Other then 'stealing' my idea https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8881.msg115238#msg115238

and putting bit* in front of the next word (which annoys me more and more by the day)

They are missing the first 2 elements of the 'one earth one nation concept'. One should start with :

-money
-vote

...

I would add information to that list, so like BDNS. Information-Money-Vote

I think BitNation is putting together elements these kind of concepts

Consensus technology has the power to make governments irrelevant to the provision of law, courts, crime prevention, contract enforcement, voting, or any other so-called public good. 

I am not claiming that governments will be overthrown or that people will vote them out of office, instead I mean to say that their rulings and opinions will be of no practical significance once superior consensus technologies are able to garner more influence and power through voluntary, nonviolent, entirely legal action than governments can wield at gunpoint.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2853.msg35523#msg35523

Great!

Money, Vote, Information and... Music, because

"Without music, life would be a mistake." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Method-X

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For this to be a DAC it needs to be profitable. Where would revenue come from?

Offline matt608

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AMAZING thanks for sharing this, I hadn't heard about it!  A similar project:
http://democracyos.org/


Offline Ben Mason

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Other then 'stealing' my idea https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8881.msg115238#msg115238

and putting bit* in front of the next word (which annoys me more and more by the day)

They are missing the first 2 elements of the 'one earth one nation concept'. One should start with :

-money
-vote

...

I would add information to that list, so like BDNS. Information-Money-Vote

I think BitNation is putting together elements these kind of concepts

Consensus technology has the power to make governments irrelevant to the provision of law, courts, crime prevention, contract enforcement, voting, or any other so-called public good. 

I am not claiming that governments will be overthrown or that people will vote them out of office, instead I mean to say that their rulings and opinions will be of no practical significance once superior consensus technologies are able to garner more influence and power through voluntary, nonviolent, entirely legal action than governments can wield at gunpoint.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2853.msg35523#msg35523

That's one of my favorite Bytemaster quotes.  It helps me sleep at night....truly.  Thanks for digging it up!

Offline Empirical1.1

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Other then 'stealing' my idea https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8881.msg115238#msg115238

and putting bit* in front of the next word (which annoys me more and more by the day)

They are missing the first 2 elements of the 'one earth one nation concept'. One should start with :

-money
-vote

...

I would add information to that list, so like BDNS. Information-Money-Vote

I think BitNation is putting together elements these kind of concepts

Consensus technology has the power to make governments irrelevant to the provision of law, courts, crime prevention, contract enforcement, voting, or any other so-called public good. 

I am not claiming that governments will be overthrown or that people will vote them out of office, instead I mean to say that their rulings and opinions will be of no practical significance once superior consensus technologies are able to garner more influence and power through voluntary, nonviolent, entirely legal action than governments can wield at gunpoint.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2853.msg35523#msg35523



Offline Ben Mason

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Governance utilities are where I have always hoped blockchain tech would take us!  Consensus-regulated governance, ie about the truest representation of democracy you could have.....with room for innovation!

You are probably right, they are unlikely to switch......which leave one enormous hole for Bitshares and DPOS to fill.  I know several of these governance type utilities are worked on already....but imagine the impact of unifying them!

Is it POS?

Not that i'm aware of....

Offline fuzzy

Governance utilities are where I have always hoped blockchain tech would take us!  Consensus-regulated governance, ie about the truest representation of democracy you could have.....with room for innovation!

You are probably right, they are unlikely to switch......which leave one enormous hole for Bitshares and DPOS to fill.  I know several of these governance type utilities are worked on already....but imagine the impact of unifying them!

Is it POS?
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Offline Ben Mason

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Oh dear.....well i agree with you BitNation does not sound right at all and also money power certainly comes first.  I guess we are already building the components that will form the Bitshares Earth....or Bearth  ;D

Offline tonyk

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Other then 'stealing' my idea https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8881.msg115238#msg115238

and putting bit* in front of the next word (which annoys me more and more by the day)

They are missing the first 2 elements of the 'one earth one nation concept'. One should start with :

-money
-vote

...
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Ben Mason

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Governance utilities are where I have always hoped blockchain tech would take us!  Consensus-regulated governance, ie about the truest representation of democracy you could have.....with room for innovation!

You are probably right, they are unlikely to switch......which leave one enormous hole for Bitshares and DPOS to fill.  I know several of these governance type utilities are worked on already....but imagine the impact of unifying them! 

Offline nomoreheroes7

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That's a pretty far-out concept...but very interesting, and a very nice website. It looks like they already plan to use the bitcoin blockchain, though:

"Bitnation is a Distributed Organisation incorporated on the Bitcoin blockchain"

So I imagine it'd be hard to get them to jump ship now. Unless of course Bitcoin ultimately implodes, which is looking more and more like a possibility lately... ;)

But yea, a competing BitUnion/BitSociety/BitCountry/BitPeople would be awesome...lol too bad they already took the BitNation name.

BitPolity? BitRepublic? BitDemocracy?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 01:44:26 pm by nomoreheroes7 »

Offline Ben Mason

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Has anyone heard of this project?  http://www.bitnation.co/

I've asked them to consider using the Bitshares Toolkit.....if not, we should be building a competing governance utility I think