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How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?

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Offline Empirical1.1

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How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« on: October 02, 2014, 08:48:50 AM »

This is a question for non-developers. I'm also interested in why.

One of the key things we can do imo to help BTSX adoption is to be active voters. (While useful now with all the updates, BTSX should become actively decentralised if it wants to get a high valuation. ) Personally though I don't like to expose my entire BTSX stake frequently to hackers etc. by voting.

With the stake I do vote with, because BTSX (fantastically) is being developed so fast, I often leave it for weeks to avoid downloading every new BTSX version.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 09:03:08 AM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2014, 10:12:04 AM »
This is an important debate and will get very important as its a potential PR attack point. I personally have only used about 10% to vote with. They went to zerox, hes very active and helpful.

So why haven't i voted with the other 90%? Two or three reasons (four it seams)

1. until the bugs are all out i am reluctant to open wallets with large balances. (is this Justified?)

2. I have seen the page where delegates say what they will do. This is all well but to vote i need to feel like i know the delegates a bit better. Being active on the forum is great for this because you can get an idea of a persons personality/approaches to life.

3 I still don't 100% understand it, for example, does my vote last for ever until i change it? A video would be good here.

4 What's the incentive for an individual to vote? Yes, i know the system fails if none of us do, so its for the greater good but i'm still not pulled to to do it.

So my opinion for what its worth.
We need real incentive or punishment for people to vote. It actually costs 0.5 btsx to place a vote at the moment. Maybe give an few btsx reward, base the incentive on the size of a persons pot. If you own 1million btsx then you get a larger reward than someone with 10,000. This would incentivise all but chanel the costs into getting the most amount of votes cast. For a punishment maybe the opposite? dont vote in a time frame and some of your coins will be burnt?

We also need to know our delegates, im not one who thinks we need their real world identity but each delegate should do there PR bit it might seem strange but i would be interested in what they read/listen to do they like hiking skiing partying, all this information tells us more than the sum of ots words. Voting on cold hard facts is one thing but its natural to want to like the person you are doing a favour to (voting is the favour) You can't get to like/trust/admire someone without feeling like you know them a little.

One thing is for certain, if people don't vote then DPOS is severely weakened and the more who vote the stronger DPOS is. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 10:19:15 AM by stuartcharles »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 10:20:58 AM »
I wouldn't know why you would be exposing your stake to hackers when voting.

The more crucial question than much stake one is voting with (because that is easy = vote for 1 delegate and transfer all stake to your own account) is "for how many delegates is my whole stake voting for?".
Because: A shareholder's voting power is maximized when he votes FOR 101 DELEGATES with his whole stake. If a shareholder only votes for 1 delegate with his whole stake he only used 1/101 of his voting power. See http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/ApprovalVoting https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5205.0
It is healthy / secure for the system if every shareholder maximizes the effect of his voting shares so that an attacker does have a hard time voting his bad delegates in. In the future delegate slates will solve this but it makes sense to create awareness for it anyway. Shareholders have to understand their "company" and the rights they have in it!

...This is also the reason why it is not selfish for a delegate to set up 20 own delegates because then a shareholder can vote for 100 delegates controlled by 5 people (who each have 20 delegates) he trusts. Delegate slates will be a solution to this but until they are established this is better than only voting for 5 delegates controlled by 5 different people.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 10:24:07 AM by delulo »

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2014, 11:05:56 AM »
I wouldn't know why you would be exposing your stake to hackers when voting.

The more crucial question than much stake one is voting with (because that is easy = vote for 1 delegate and transfer all stake to your own account) is "for how many delegates is my whole stake voting for?".
Because: A shareholder's voting power is maximized when he votes FOR 101 DELEGATES with his whole stake. If a shareholder only votes for 1 delegate with his whole stake he only used 1/101 of his voting power. See http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/ApprovalVoting https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5205.0
It is healthy / secure for the system if every shareholder maximizes the effect of his voting shares so that an attacker does have a hard time voting his bad delegates in. In the future delegate slates will solve this but it makes sense to create awareness for it anyway. Shareholders have to understand their "company" and the rights they have in it!

...This is also the reason why it is not selfish for a delegate to set up 20 own delegates because then a shareholder can vote for 100 delegates controlled by 5 people (who each have 20 delegates) he trusts. Delegate slates will be a solution to this but until they are established this is better than only voting for 5 delegates controlled by 5 different people.

Firstly i just through a few ideas out there, i'm sure there are better. I just wonder whether the community as a whole sees any merit in developing the voting system further in a way that maximises votes cast?

Maybe someone could clarify if you were to receive some kind of reward for voting would you be "be exposing your stake to hackers when voting" or would Titan keep you covered?

Thanks for the info on voting more than one delegate, i did realise this but i simply don't want to vote blindly and i haven't "got to Know" any other delegates. I know i need to make the effort to make more time. However its a fact of human nature that we engage a level of effort parallel to our interest in the subject.

So what i am saying is we need to increase peoples interest in the subject. Can be carrot, stick or both and lets get to know the delegates a bit more so can contect with them and support them.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2014, 11:15:43 AM »
Yeah some good points here.

I wouldn't know why you would be exposing your stake to hackers when voting.

I mean I would perhaps expose my stake to being stolen. Loading a wallet onto a PC and unlocking it to vote could potentially get it stolen if I had a Trojan/key logger or something I was unaware of - I'm a point and click guy, but this a concern/possibility right?

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2014, 11:36:45 AM »
Quote
I mean I would perhaps expose my stake to being stolen. Loading a wallet onto a PC and unlocking it to vote could potentially get it stolen if I had a Trojan/key logger or something I was unaware of - I'm a point and click guy, but this a concern/possibility right?

I have the same concerns...And since I am not a tech guy I don't know how secure are my funds when my wallet is unlocked for voting..
Security wise is my wallet exposed like if I have a ppc wallet unlocked for minting, the same exposure as my btc wallet when synchoniosed to the networl, less secure or more secure?

Offline xeroc

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2014, 12:02:49 PM »
I have the same concerns...And since I am not a tech guy I don't know how secure are my funds when my wallet is unlocked for voting..
I am not aware of any malware yet .. people need to infiltrate your system in-deep and know pretty well what they want .. so stealing funds with a wallet installed and 'locked' is damn difficult or next to impossible ... if you have it unlocked you better have the RPC interface listen to localhost ONLY (default setting ;-) )
if the wallet is unlocked some advanced memory attacks might compromise your keys ..

Quote
Security wise is my wallet exposed like if I have a ppc wallet unlocked for minting, the same exposure as my btc wallet when synchoniosed to the networl, less secure or more secure?
no .. you can sync the blocks while locked ... HOWEVER you need to unlock in order to
- see incoming funds (TITAN limitation)
- send funds (obviously)
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2014, 12:40:33 PM »
Quote
I just wonder whether the community as a whole sees any merit in developing the voting system further in a way that maximises votes cast?
I think it is well worth considering to reward those that vote with max voting capacity. The thing is that this might incentivize to just vote for anyone....
RDPOS https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6096.0 is the solution as of now. I like the idea... to be implemented.

Offline cube

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Re: How much of your BTSX stake are you actively voting with?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2014, 01:04:11 PM »
Quote
I mean I would perhaps expose my stake to being stolen. Loading a wallet onto a PC and unlocking it to vote could potentially get it stolen if I had a Trojan/key logger or something I was unaware of - I'm a point and click guy, but this a concern/possibility right?

I have the same concerns...And since I am not a tech guy I don't know how secure are my funds when my wallet is unlocked for voting..
Security wise is my wallet exposed like if I have a ppc wallet unlocked for minting, the same exposure as my btc wallet when synchoniosed to the networl, less secure or more secure?

Yes. Most people would have these concerns. Key loggers and malware permitting remote spying/control are tools that hackers can use to pry some coins out of the wallet.  If you have a large sum, unlock the wallet just for voting and once done, send the excess fund into cold storage.
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