Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?  (Read 368 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline monsterer

Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« on: October 09, 2014, 06:30:49 PM »

They all need logic to run. The logic must run somewhere. It can't run inside the blockchain(?) so it must reside on some server somewhere. Which makes it centralised, doesn't it?

Unless you distribute the DAC as a client and ask end users to run it - but what is their incentive to do so?

Have I got my understanding of this correct?

Cheers, Paul.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 06:33:43 PM by monsterer »
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline toast

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2014, 06:38:19 PM »
A DAC runs on everyone and anyone's computer. At any instant in time there just needs to be *somebody* able to produce blocks, and that somebody can change at any time. Anybody who produces blocks (even "end users" which is everybody) can get paid.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline monsterer

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2014, 06:48:00 PM »
A DAC runs on everyone and anyone's computer. At any instant in time there just needs to be *somebody* able to produce blocks, and that somebody can change at any time. Anybody who produces blocks (even "end users" which is everybody) can get paid.

Ok, so the incentive to run the DAC client is some kind of block reward from transaction fees? Do DACs all need to have the DPOS system?

Is there a wiki somewhere which explains all this? :)

Cheers, Paul.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline sschechter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2014, 07:59:41 PM »
Paul,

A DAC is an abstract concept.  After months of deliberation, DPOS was the chosen method for implementing DACs in the most profitable way. 

You can find more info here: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Main_Page

BTSX: sschechter
PTS: PvBUyPrDRkJLVXZfvWjdudRtQgv1Fcy5Qe

Offline monsterer

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2014, 08:49:17 PM »
Paul,

A DAC is an abstract concept.  After months of deliberation, DPOS was the chosen method for implementing DACs in the most profitable way. 

You can find more info here: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Main_Page

A DAC might be an abstract concept, but it must have a concrete implementation.

If DACs must use DPOS this means that only delegates will be rewarded directly for the compute time consumed by running the DAC client on their local machines. Most people running a DAC client will have no incentive to do so, unless I'm missing something?

Cheers, Paul.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline toast

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2014, 08:58:15 PM »
Paul,

A DAC is an abstract concept.  After months of deliberation, DPOS was the chosen method for implementing DACs in the most profitable way. 

You can find more info here: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Main_Page

A DAC might be an abstract concept, but it must have a concrete implementation.

If DACs must use DPOS this means that only delegates will be rewarded directly for the compute time consumed by running the DAC client on their local machines. Most people running a DAC client will have no incentive to do so, unless I'm missing something?

Cheers, Paul.

non-delegates don't produce blocks so it doesn't matter.
A DAC can use any consensus protocol you like. You could have POW mining and then anyone could be a block producer and get paid (except in practice it would centralize even further than normal).
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline monsterer

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2014, 09:16:13 PM »
Here's my thought process:

I can understand why you'd want to own shares in a company which pays dividends. You don't need a DAC for that. The company can be centralised, but it's obviously vulnerable to being taken down and that risk devalues it. The company has a massive incentive to run the logic which defines the operation of the company (e.g. satoshi's dice, running on a centralised server).

The point of a DAC is to decentralise the 'company', removing the risk of takedown. This means that the company's logic has to be inside a client which runs on end user's machines and operates much like an altcoin. But, what I'm trying to understand is where the incentive lies for end users to run the client on their machines?

Unless running the client rewards the user in a more substantial way than just owning plain dividend paying shares does, what is the incentive to run it?

Are there any examples out there which clarifies this, for the uninitiated (i.e me)?

Cheers, Paul.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline toast

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2014, 09:31:32 PM »
Here's my thought process:

I can understand why you'd want to own shares in a company which pays dividends. You don't need a DAC for that. The company can be centralised, but it's obviously vulnerable to being taken down and that risk devalues it. The company has a massive incentive to run the logic which defines the operation of the company (e.g. satoshi's dice, running on a centralised server).

The point of a DAC is to decentralise the 'company', removing the risk of takedown. This means that the company's logic has to be inside a client which runs on end user's machines and operates much like an altcoin. But, what I'm trying to understand is where the incentive lies for end users to run the client on their machines?

Unless running the client rewards the user in a more substantial way than just owning plain dividend paying shares does, what is the incentive to run it?

Are there any examples out there which clarifies this, for the uninitiated (i.e me)?

Cheers, Paul.

The block producers are selected by shareholders. They are rewarded every time they produce the block. The end user just validates the blockchain with their client whenever they run a full client

It's just like how in bitcoin, the average user does not run a block producer or even a validator (full node). But it's still decentralized and resistant to takedown because there are enough redundant verifiers that can be swapped out at any time.

A DAC is just a profitable altcoin. What's the incentive to run an altcoin client?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline monsterer

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2014, 09:42:59 PM »
The block producers are selected by shareholders. They are rewarded every time they produce the block. The end user just validates the blockchain with their client whenever they run a full client

It's just like how in bitcoin, the average user does not run a block producer or even a validator (full node). But it's still decentralized and resistant to takedown because there are enough redundant verifiers that can be swapped out at any time.

A DAC is just a profitable altcoin. What's the incentive to run an altcoin client?

The altcoin client is the wallet which enables you to own the coin, so in order to invest in the coin you have no choice but to run the client.

With bitshares things are different because you can own the asset which represents the DAC without running the DAC. So you can receive dividends without doing any work running the client. In that case, why run the DAC unless it rewards you?

Cheers, Paul.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline toast

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2014, 09:52:49 PM »
How do you own shares without getting the client? On the exchanges? The exchanges run clients

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12058
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BTS: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2014, 06:45:02 AM »
How do you own shares without getting the client? On the exchanges? The exchanges run clients
I think he wanted to point out the difference to PPC and NXT where you have to run the client in order to produce blocks in order to get the fees
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline monsterer

Re: Is it possible for a DAC to be 100% decentralised?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2014, 08:16:25 AM »
How do you own shares without getting the client? On the exchanges? The exchanges run clients

I think there is a confusion of clients here. Obviously you need to run the bitshares client in order to own any asset. But, and this is the important part for me: you don't need to run any DAC client in order to own the asset which represents that DAC.

That asset will pay dividends without you ever installing and running the DAC client associated with it.

Now, AFAICT, if you were to install and run the DAC client AND you were voted as a delegate, you would receive 50% more dividends? (ref: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1121.msg12464#msg12464) But doesn't this mean there is little incentive to run the DAC client if you are not a delegate?

Cheers, Paul.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 09:03:03 AM by monsterer »
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

 

Google+