Author Topic: 5% Annual inactivity fee applied to unclaimed stake?  (Read 6934 times)

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Offline Empirical1.1

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from the OP above, I was wondering how you can see how much has been "unclaimed"... where can you garner such data about BTSX DAC ..and others?

Code: [Select]
delegate (locked) >>> blockchain_unclaimed_genesis
711,574,579.54392 BTSX

Thanks...   where is info about how to do command line stuff.. and perhaps all the available codes?

You can also look here lot of interesting stats for someone like me that's allergic to the console.

http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/home
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 03:02:57 pm by Empirical1.1 »

Offline mf-tzo

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IMHO there shouldn't be any inactivity fee before a very strong security is in place (cold wallet, trezor for BTSX etc). Some people do not want to claim their shares for the next 5 years and only trade a very small portion of BTSX until the whole thing goes mainstream.

Once all the security (easy for very stupid people like me) is in place I would not mind a 30% inactivity fee for 1 year. Until then you are asking people to risk their security measures. In my thinking BTSX is bitcoin in 2009. If I could go back in time and had a small batch of bitcoins I wouldn't want to expose them for whatever reason but just leave them somewhere securely for the raining days...

Offline Riverhead

Remember the fee is for inactivity for a year. To avoid it just transfer your balance to yourself once a year. Call it proof of control so the DAC knows the coins aren't orphaned.

I don't see it as a great hardship. You could even setup a simple script to do it.

Open client, click update votes button, close client. Repeat once a year.

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Offline gordonhucn

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It doesn't make sense to me. The fee will force people either sell their unclaimed stakes or transfer the stakes once awhile , neither way you can get 5% fee from them, unless they don't know about it at all. Which means although this can be announced as widely as possible but the punishments will only drop to the people who hasn't heard it, it still feels morally not right.

People with unclaimed stakes paid for their stakes as everyone else, they are being more supportive to the whole market than the dumpers at least.

A fee that can be avoided with a as little work as importing your wallet and making a single transaction is not really a fee.    All future DACs will have a much stronger inactivity fee: losing 100% of your stake over 12 months if you don't get involved within the first 3 months.   This is a good way to drive new users to try out your DAC and gain adoption.  Otherwise many people may not even bother trying a new DAC.... silent partners if you will.     

people will try the new DAC because it is interesting, not because there are fees for being silent. People invest in a new DAC and hope it could be something interesting, if such fees exist they will be forced to sell all their stakes and close their expectations for this DAC, maybe the DAC will become something interesting later but definitely without those people. For me, the whole "using fees to activate people to use a DAC" thing doesn't make sense at all. Drive people with hope, with product features, with innovations, but never with fee that makes no sense.

Offline xeroc

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Thanks...   where is info about how to do command line stuff.. and perhaps all the available codes?
you just click "console" in the GUI  :P

Offline happybit

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from the OP above, I was wondering how you can see how much has been "unclaimed"... where can you garner such data about BTSX DAC ..and others?

Code: [Select]
delegate (locked) >>> blockchain_unclaimed_genesis
711,574,579.54392 BTSX

Thanks...   where is info about how to do command line stuff.. and perhaps all the available codes?

Offline xeroc

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from the OP above, I was wondering how you can see how much has been "unclaimed"... where can you garner such data about BTSX DAC ..and others?

Code: [Select]
delegate (locked) >>> blockchain_unclaimed_genesis
711,574,579.54392 BTSX

Offline happybit

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Bytemaster has said you could easily spend/need $10 million a year to keep BTSX competitive for the next 10 years. Unfortunately this is unlikely to be able to be derived from fees alone.

(Currently 36% of BTSX remains unclaimed) However if we assume that 5% of all BTSX is never claimed then a 5% annual inactivity fee would provide 0.25% of BTSX a year to fund development.

At a $2 Billion CAP this would be $5 million a year.

So I'm open to an inactivity fee as it could provide a significant funding source once BTSX got a reasonable CAP even if it was only applied to stake that was never claimed.

Thoughts?

from the OP above, I was wondering how you can see how much has been "unclaimed"... where can you garner such data about BTSX DAC ..and others?

Offline tonyk

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and all the (transplanted) DOGE supporters would probably do too!  :P

Ok... I asked in another thread but I get my answers where I can get them.

You DO realize that posting in all the appropriate threads, and on all the issues that you might think are wrong with the Bitshares system can not be done by someone who just happen to land on this forum, do you... funny man...

[edit] I also wondered why you say you are in Europe and your IP seems to not be even close to that....
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:28:18 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Riverhead

The issue is that if bitshares_toolkit becomes the standard DAC launch platform and the PTS/AGS agreements are honored we could be seeing dozens or hundreds of DAC's a year popping up in all sorts of different geographic/business/hobby areas. It'd be like trying to keep up with every web business being developed. At some point people aren't going to try and claim every last token they're being given.

Offline happybit

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It doesn't make sense to me. The fee will force people either sell their unclaimed stakes or transfer the stakes once awhile , neither way you can get 5% fee from them, unless they don't know about it at all. Which means although this can be announced as widely as possible but the punishments will only drop to the people who hasn't heard it, it still feels morally not right.

People with unclaimed stakes paid for their stakes as everyone else, they are being more supportive to the whole market than the dumpers at least.

A fee that can be avoided with a as little work as importing your wallet and making a single transaction is not really a fee.    All future DACs will have a much stronger inactivity fee: losing 100% of your stake over 12 months if you don't get involved within the first 3 months.   This is a good way to drive new users to try out your DAC and gain adoption.  Otherwise many people may not even bother trying a new DAC.... silent partners if you will.     

As mentioned elsewhere above, no rational person will pay this fee, so it only really catches those unaware of it. Or perhaps they are aware of it, but with so many DACs coming out, they don't have time to test everything all at once, despite being supporters, and make a timing mistake. Should they be justly penalised? It does not actually penalise anybody for being a "silent partner" if they are aware of it, because they can do such a small (yet unnecessary) thing to avoid it. In theory everybody could avoid the fee and still not use the DAC. I concur that this does not sit well with me.

The incentive for people to try the DAC is the opportunity to gain something from its use or to understand its potential better. That needs to be promoted.
If this is required for funding, are there not better ways?

I think one better way to "expose" people to their shiny new DAC would be to give them a guided tour, introduce all the new services etc, and get a little treat of "extra shares" for having done it.  Like in Reward Training vs. Discipline-Based, I go for the reward!

and all the (transplanted) DOGE supporters would probably do too!  :P

Offline starspirit

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It doesn't make sense to me. The fee will force people either sell their unclaimed stakes or transfer the stakes once awhile , neither way you can get 5% fee from them, unless they don't know about it at all. Which means although this can be announced as widely as possible but the punishments will only drop to the people who hasn't heard it, it still feels morally not right.

People with unclaimed stakes paid for their stakes as everyone else, they are being more supportive to the whole market than the dumpers at least.

A fee that can be avoided with a as little work as importing your wallet and making a single transaction is not really a fee.    All future DACs will have a much stronger inactivity fee: losing 100% of your stake over 12 months if you don't get involved within the first 3 months.   This is a good way to drive new users to try out your DAC and gain adoption.  Otherwise many people may not even bother trying a new DAC.... silent partners if you will.     

As mentioned elsewhere above, no rational person will pay this fee, so it only really catches those unaware of it. Or perhaps they are aware of it, but with so many DACs coming out, they don't have time to test everything all at once, despite being supporters, and make a timing mistake. Should they be justly penalised? It does not actually penalise anybody for being a "silent partner" if they are aware of it, because they can do such a small (yet unnecessary) thing to avoid it. In theory everybody could avoid the fee and still not use the DAC. I concur that this does not sit well with me.

The incentive for people to try the DAC is the opportunity to gain something from its use or to understand its potential better. That needs to be promoted.
If this is required for funding, are there not better ways?

Offline happybit

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It doesn't make sense to me. The fee will force people either sell their unclaimed stakes or transfer the stakes once awhile , neither way you can get 5% fee from them, unless they don't know about it at all. Which means although this can be announced as widely as possible but the punishments will only drop to the people who hasn't heard it, it still feels morally not right.

People with unclaimed stakes paid for their stakes as everyone else, they are being more supportive to the whole market than the dumpers at least.

A fee that can be avoided with a as little work as importing your wallet and making a single transaction is not really a fee.    All future DACs will have a much stronger inactivity fee: losing 100% of your stake over 12 months if you don't get involved within the first 3 months.   This is a good way to drive new users to try out your DAC and gain adoption.  Otherwise many people may not even bother trying a new DAC.... silent partners if you will.     

What? I may loose all my BTSX after 12 months, if I don't do something in the first 3 months?

What if I do something after 93 days? Just a day over 3 months? -- please clarify this idea, it is crazy can this be implemented in already running DACs?

Offline bytemaster

It doesn't make sense to me. The fee will force people either sell their unclaimed stakes or transfer the stakes once awhile , neither way you can get 5% fee from them, unless they don't know about it at all. Which means although this can be announced as widely as possible but the punishments will only drop to the people who hasn't heard it, it still feels morally not right.

People with unclaimed stakes paid for their stakes as everyone else, they are being more supportive to the whole market than the dumpers at least.

A fee that can be avoided with a as little work as importing your wallet and making a single transaction is not really a fee.    All future DACs will have a much stronger inactivity fee: losing 100% of your stake over 12 months if you don't get involved within the first 3 months.   This is a good way to drive new users to try out your DAC and gain adoption.  Otherwise many people may not even bother trying a new DAC.... silent partners if you will.       
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Offline Empirical1.1

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It doesn't make sense to me. The fee will force people either sell their unclaimed stakes or transfer the stakes once awhile , neither way you can get 5% fee from them, unless they don't know about it at all. Which means although this can be announced as widely as possible but the punishments will only drop to the people who hasn't heard it, it still feels morally not right.

People with unclaimed stakes paid for their stakes as everyone else, they are being more supportive to the whole market than the dumpers at least.

The 5% inactivity fee is not new & I don't think it's immoral, it is part of the original design, I think it's been in all the whitepapers so they knew about it.

Also even if it just made people claim their original stake, that's good for helping keep the DAC decentralised by having more stake voting once in a while.