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Messages - JoeyD

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271
General Discussion / Re: Maybe we can make AGS2.0 in the future
« on: May 22, 2014, 07:26:59 pm »
Quote from: gamey on May 22, 2014, 03:28:10 am
Quote from: sudo on May 22, 2014, 01:16:12 am
Quote from: JoeyD on May 21, 2014, 08:16:29 pm
Quote from: sudo on May 21, 2014, 03:13:29 pm
Assuming that  someone stole your PTS wallet.dat  with AGS donation record
wallet.dat has password  but not strong enough。it can be cracked sooner or later。

PTS you can transfer to a totaly new address or new wallet at any time or regularly。make it more safe。

But  AGS, you must race with the thief when the new DACs release。Who wins when he import the wall.dat &transfer the coin to another address。
Again & Again  forever……
Unfortunately making AGS liquid would not fix those problems in any way, actually it would make pawning off stolen AGS a lot easier, as well as make it easier to scam people out of their AGS-shares.

So better make a secure paper copy of your donation key and do not use a hot wallet at all. (Making a secure paper copy means writing it down on paper preferably by hand, not printing it via wifi from an online windows pc)

make AGS liquid would make pawning off stolen AGS a lot easier？ how？
AGS(liquid) is the same as pts,According to what you have said，Now the AGS（not liquid）is safer than Pts？


if AGS become liquid  you can transfer AGS it to a brandnew address generated offline&coldstorage。
Now  the address cotains AGS you used sometimes before, maybe under high risks。

It depends on the nature of the attack.  If someone is targeting your AGS key and gets it then they will immediately move your AGS.  If they can't move it, you'll at least have a shot at getting your dividends from there on out. 

Now if you suspect you have been compromised and beat the intruder to the transfer then yes it is safer.
Yes I meant it the way gamey described it, the problem with increased liquidity is that it also becomes impossible to prove and track ownership. 

Now even if your donation-key is stolen, you have the option of going public and claiming ownership with the will to prove it in any way you can, while a thief might not be willing to do the same. After the theft being made public, maybe then there can also be steps taken to ensure you get your fair shares.

272
BitShares AGS / Re: Crowdfunding using AGS?
« on: May 22, 2014, 07:00:00 pm »
Disclaimer: Before being labeled as echo-chamber or groupthinker, because I dare to disagree, I'm not pro/contra any coin/share and I'm probably one of the persons with the least amount of stake in bitshares compared to other projects, including some of the direct competing ones.

While I am all for competition, the fact that you are advertising your own competing products does not make your comment sound very objective even if you say you are doing so per invitation.

The very first DAC to come out will do exactly what Adam B Levine is apparently trying to create a competitor for and it's called bitsharesME and it will be released before DPoS-pts and way before bitsharesX(T).

Adam did you also provide a number of trustworthy contacts that would have been able to do what you blame Daniel Larimer for not doing? Seeing your concerns, have you tried applying for that position in the Invictus-team yourself? Talk is cheap especially if you are not doing any of the technical work yourself. Imo, you are making light of how difficult it is to find trustworthy people in this scene and I really, really hope it is only because of you being naive. Especially considering how many people are actively trying to scam the Invictus/bitshares-team already and one even successfully making off with their brand and website, which seems to be one of the driving factors of needing to rebrand into bitshares.

I've seen quite a few scammers target your platform(s) or you personally in order to catch a larger amount of people in their plans. For someone who has helped give scammers a voice in the past, you don't come across as being particularly concerned about it, nor does it seem to have made you any more humble or reserved in your statements. I've had people come up to me and boast about how they were able to mislead the stupid masses, proudly explaining in detail a number of successful strategies they pulled of in the past, and I see your platform and you personally as prime targets for people like that. So when you talk about spending funds as lightly as you are doing, that does not particularly inspire a whole lot of confidence.

273
DAC PLAY / Re: Nothing but a Lotto DAC Business Graph
« on: May 22, 2014, 05:51:04 pm »
I feel a bit bad about not commenting on your plans and work HackFisher, which might make you feel like you're talking in the void. Thing is I really find your project one of the most promising and interesting DACs, honest gambling is a real big thing I think, but I'm not a gambling man and have no opinions to give from that perspective. I do have a decent grasp of the basics in probability math and statistics, but alas that is also the reason I'm not a gambling man and don't really believe in luck.

So don't let the lack of comments discourage you, there is support for your efforts, just not much in way of opinions.

274
General Discussion / Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 22, 2014, 11:54:55 am »
Quote from: betax on May 22, 2014, 11:31:31 am
Quote from: betax on May 22, 2014, 10:52:07 am
Why not launch PTS2 when AGS donation is finished? Or finish it early if required.

Then make PTS2 = PTS + AGS, this will keep it simple further on as new DACS will honour PTS2.

AGS will become liquid as it has already serve its purpose.

Let PTS die and do a transition as it has been suggested.

The new PTS2 could be call FounderShares as suggested before and would be clear is equal to PTS + AGS (Proto + Angel). The 300k reminder could be distributed in equal terms across both PTS / AGS as both have had have different risks and good periods.

This actually sounds like one of the better suggestions, but would require bounties to be issued by the community for marketing projects etc.

While a lot of people seem to think that the AGS-fund is an enormous amount of money, to me it doesn't look all that impressive compared to the amount of work and spending that will be required for all the projects that are planned and what the community seems to expect the fund to pay for.

275
General Discussion / Re: Delegated Proof of Stake (DPOS) White Paper
« on: May 22, 2014, 11:40:57 am »
Latching on to Delulos question and after listening to the mumble-recording I've got a couple of questions as well.

How is the firing and hiring of delegates handled? I somewhat understand how the popularity vote works, but not what happens when one delegate is fired. Is there a digital dug-out, where reserve delegates are waiting to be put into the playing field? Also if for security reasons there needs to be an odd number of delegates how is that handled, are delegates dynamically removed or hired when the total is an even number? Can the total number of delegates vary dynamically by user vote or does it require a hard-fork?

276
General Discussion / Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 22, 2014, 07:58:23 am »
In response to Adam B Levine, Mess, Werneo and Stan as central communication manager you cannot burn the 15% (I know it's silly to even suggest otherwise, but Adam B Levine was not suggesting proof of burn of the PoW-PTS, because that obviously would not work) nor give them to current PTS-holders for the reasons that have been explained already repeatedly like in the links below.

Some remarks that have now been repeated several times on this forum even on different threads really makes me wonder if people have a clue what they are talking about, but that doesn't seem to inhibit them from making accusations or voicing their opinion and drowning out the real arguments. How do you propose Invictus to just magic the old pts out of existence? If they could actually do that what are you even investing in? What's the point of projects like this if some central group had that kind of power? Invictus can't force the market to chose their way and if the market choses against Invictus DPoS-PTS, they will have to honor that choice. Click on the links below if you don't get what I'm talking about.

It's getting a bit tiresome to see the same thing explained over and over again and the discussion just looping back to the same misconceptions as if nothing happened, seems a forum is not a good way to discus this.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.msg59085#msg59085
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.msg59209#msg59209
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4636.msg59213#msg59213
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4658.msg59215#msg59215
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.msg59274#msg59274

Back to suggestions, I've come up with a 3-rd one and this one is a winner for sure.

Give it all to me and then I'll flaunt around showing how rich I became off of bitshares that'll be sure to reach the mainstream media. I could even organize a public poll on this forum for the most ridiculous way to do it. For example moon Putin / Obama or another public figure of choice depending on what'll get most attention with bitshare millionare tattooed on my butt-cheeks. Or crash a high-profile / high-society dinner party with a couple of pornstars with enough doubly inflated real-estate to have readable advertisementspace for the words "You could be here if you were a bitshare millionaire". I'm considering  the slogan "I'm a bitshare millionaire and I don't care", but I'm open to suggestions.

277
General Discussion / Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 21, 2014, 11:12:13 pm »
Hmmm, after long and careful deliberation and contemplation, I think it would be best for everyone if the remaining PTS2 is just sent to me and I promise I will most definitely try to spend it well.

278
General Discussion / Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 21, 2014, 10:57:28 pm »
Quote from: toast on May 21, 2014, 10:35:42 pm
I strongly oppose keeping the unmined pts for "marketing" and suggest scaling existing pts holding up to 2 million as was the original plan.

Past marketing spending does not give me great confidence =[

Do you mean distributing the new coins to current PTS-holders? If so, then you can't do that, because you will be screwing over the AGS-donators big time. Especially the ones who donated PTS to the AGS-funds. And to be brutally honest, ags-funds paid for the DPoS-technology directly not the PTS-holders, who are mostly betting amongst themselves how much of a free ride they'll be getting :D.

After all the discussion I still see only 2 options:
1) distribute evenly between AGS (both pts and btc ones) and current PTS-holders
2) Use the 15% coins to increase the value for all parties involved, such as a marketing campaign, although the dollar-value is peanuts by today standards. Maybe a faucet, air-drop, charity, marketing doesn't mean it should be purely greed driven and if possible should be done by community vote (but that probably won't be feasible).

Number 2 sounds more impressive to me (pun intended) and could help things get off the ground, but as Toast pointed out, it should not be done in the way marketing has been done up till now by Invictus/bitshares. Nothing personal, but PR, marketing and community involvement needs some major attention after launching the first DPoS-chains at the very latest.

279
General Discussion / Re: Maybe we can make AGS2.0 in the future
« on: May 21, 2014, 08:16:29 pm »
Quote from: sudo on May 21, 2014, 03:13:29 pm
Assuming that  someone stole your PTS wallet.dat  with AGS donation record
wallet.dat has password  but not strong enough。it can be cracked sooner or later。

PTS you can transfer to a totaly new address or new wallet at any time or regularly。make it more safe。

But  AGS, you must race with the thief when the new DACs release。Who wins when he import the wall.dat &transfer the coin to another address。
Again & Again  forever……
Unfortunately making AGS liquid would not fix those problems in any way, actually it would make pawning off stolen AGS a lot easier, as well as make it easier to scam people out of their AGS-shares.

So better make a secure paper copy of your donation key and do not use a hot wallet at all. (Making a secure paper copy means writing it down on paper preferably by hand, not printing it via wifi from an online windows pc)

280
General Discussion / Re: AGS , PTS and now PTS2 . Spot the difference
« on: May 21, 2014, 08:06:23 pm »
Quote from: Simeon II on May 21, 2014, 02:04:58 pm
Quote from: Stan on May 21, 2014, 05:10:31 am
Quote from: jwiz168 on May 21, 2014, 04:41:53 am
Now that Invictus announced a derivative of PTS that adapts DPOS, which of it has an edge or more valuable than other. It says that PTS2 will be 1:1 value as to the original PTS. But this might lead to confusion among traders and investors. This brings AGS a little bit of advantage. Eventhough it hard to make AGS liquid, the stability and adaptability of it made this over PTS or PTS2.

Not 1:1 in value.  It's 1:1 in shares (BIPS).  We think the upgrade will quickly grab all the value and then grow because it has a better design and marketing strategy and it is the one we will honor.  If enough investors and developers choose otherwise, then the opposite could be true.

'Not 1:1 in value.  It's 1:1 in shares (BIPS).' in other words it is about 15% drop in value... the rest is hope 'We think the upgrade will quickly grab all the value and then grow'
Are you FUD-ing or what? What 15% drop in value? Are you talking to us from an alternate reality where pts was not supposed to be mined up to 2 million and everyone was not counting on that?  Or are you trying to suggest you want it all to go to PTS-holders? If so the people who really paid for development via AGS want to have a word with you. What's your point with the bolded word hope anyway? You hope you'll still be breathing when day breaks tomorrow, but no such guarantee exists.

281
General Discussion / Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« on: May 21, 2014, 07:28:06 pm »
It might also be a nice idea to put some things into perspective. I've helped organized parties that only lasted a single evening, had the use of free labour, infrastructure and facilities, cut costs and corners wherever we could and it still burnt through more than 3 times the 15% PTS-marketcap that the people here are pissed off about.

So in my experience 1 million dollars is not enough for a single dinner-party, which makes it look almost like a joke as a marketing fund. I also don't think the AGS-fund represents a very impressive amount of money, but then again I used to work for one of the biggest employers in the country (I'm not from the US btw.)

282
General Discussion / Re: Against PTS2 (naming) and Using the fund in marketing
« on: May 21, 2014, 05:50:52 pm »
Quote from: DonJoe on May 21, 2014, 01:56:07 pm
1. I agree DPOS is necessary for PTS, why can't you just hard fork PTS and keep using the PTS name instead of PTS2? Leaving both PTS and PTS2 in the market is like leaving one of your child in the wild wide and die. Just announce a client hard fork and do the mapping. PTS miner will disappear and everyone upgrade their client.

This is even more impossible to do than it is for MS to force you to use a specific version of windows. You can't just "hard-fork" and magically force separate individually acting people to do what you want. Also the differences between pts and the new dpos-pts are too big to just be able to upgrade. The snapshot plus launch of completely new version really does seem to be one of the cleanest and quickest solutions, but that does not give Invictus any power over your choices or those of anyone else.

283
General Discussion / Re: Rest in Peace, DA
« on: May 21, 2014, 05:39:02 pm »
Quote from: donkeypong on May 21, 2014, 04:19:24 pm
Quote from: Simeon II on May 21, 2014, 01:48:18 pm

What part do you not get?
 PTS holders now have 100% of the PTS.
After the new PTS 2.0 come to life, they will own 1.65/2 or about 82% of generally the same thing

Either way, PTS would reach 2,000,000 soon anyway (by mining otherwise), so your 82% is going to be the same.

Exactly and also don't forget the 1% inflation after the 2 million would have been reached.

284
General Discussion / Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 21, 2014, 05:32:22 pm »
Quote from: Mako on May 21, 2014, 05:03:47 pm
yes，they can。they shouldn`t sell over the pts 1.0 to the market ,and give future DACs to pts 1.0,and pts will die. let pts die naturally

The way I read it, Invictus wants pts 1.0 to die, but they can't tell you or force you what to do. So if the majority stubbornly loves PoW and sells off their DPoS pts 2.0, then the market will let pts 2.0 die, without Invictus being able to do anything about that. The community / market really will decide and if it chooses pts 1.0 over pts 2.0 then bitshares or Invictus has no choice but to honor that decision. Also future DAC developers will have to adapt to that situation as well.

I see that people are confused, but this is not the usual central planning kind of upgrade and even with traditional central planned monopolies upgrading can't be forced on the users. Look at MSWindows. How many versions have there been since WindowsXP, but a very significant amount has chosen to stick with XP despite all the power and centralization of the MS-corporation who are the sole owner of the closed source and control absolutely everything. That community choice has forced MS to change their plans and honor the wishes of their customers against their own wishes and reintroduce things like a start-button that does not distract or disrupt your work-flow.

In short, Invictus has no choice but to respect the wishes of the majority and if the majority/market wants PoW-pts 1.0 then that's that.  Even if Invictus wants it dead and buried the second pts 2.0 goes live, they have no real power over that decision, other than trying to persuade people and exchanges to go with pts 2.0.

285
General Discussion / Re: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread
« on: May 21, 2014, 04:37:33 pm »
Quote from: donkeypong on May 21, 2014, 04:23:42 pm
Quote from: xeroc on May 21, 2014, 11:32:59 am
Sure.. practical .. but the 15% premine issue persists.

I am afraid of the public opinion calling these 15% a premine (which its is, if 3i holds the privkey)   thus will tank the price imo.

We should really consider a community fund.

+die pts1 ... die!!!
+pts2 .. tha moon ;-)

Then don't call it premine, since it isn't. Postmine? Community fund? How about making a SIMPLE voting DAC to vote on how this money should be spent?
I doubt that would change much, because you will have to decide who gets the vote and you have the same problem all over again.

@Vendetta Most of your points have been answered already. What language do you post in usually? Maybe there is a forum member who could translate.

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