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Messages - tonyk

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3196
'You have 2 BTS, you short 1 BitUSD at 1:1.
Now you have 0 BTS *and that's it*, you do not have 1 BitUSD also!'


-With 1 BTS you sell 1bitUSD; you end up with -1bitUSD; the collateral of 2 BTS is formed by said (your) 1 BTS and the 1 BTS received from the sale of said 1 bitUSD.

 -With 1 BTS you buy 1bitUSD so you do have 1 BitUSD.

3197
Nicolay,
I politely ask you to leave the responses in this thread to Dan...
As you are incorrect here, the same way you were incorrect in the other thread.

 
I don't think that's right... you put up 2x collateral at the time you place the order. The bts you trade the bitusd for and your margin are separate. You never have negative balance, just locked collateral

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Each party puts up 1x for a total of 2x entering the trade, and the output of the trade is -USD backed by 2x and +USD

3198
General Discussion / Re: MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin
« on: May 13, 2014, 02:23:58 pm »
...via-mastercoin investors...
You mean the via-mastercoin investor (as in one person)... ;)

3199
I gave a lot of thought about the “Have a cake and eat it too” attack and came to really really sad conclusion:

1. It won’t be a problem to explain to BM why this is actually an attack. (My definition of attack is – flow/ deficiency in the implementation that leaves the system vulnerable and gives a possibility to malicious participants to either benefit (financially) or destroy the market even with no personal gain)

2. The problem is that even if the flow is fixed (the flow in this case is the possibility for an account to be short and long the same bitAsset at the same time), the possibility for someone to be long and short the same asset, (coupled with the limited risk of the short position to 2x max loss) still exists! The malicious player will just need 2 accounts to achieve this same result… and I do not see how this can be prevented => this is deficiency of the model (of the prediction market called BTS X) existing on a blockchain with no access to all assets of the short position holder but just to up to his initial margin.

3. The unfortunate result of 2. is that the “Have a cake and eat it too”  is not simply an attack (something fixable) but argument #3 why BTS X will not work. And this is pretty bad news for me, as I will truly benefit much more if the BTS X experiment does work…
 …well let’s hope it does against all odds...

3200
'I don't follow... do it step by step. I buy both bts and bitusd. Now what?'
You buy 1 bitUSD and sell 1 bitUSD BTW not 'buy both  bts and bitusd.'
 

Neutral* bitAsset position with unlimited max gain.
*[neutral] Read with limited max loss of 0 i.e. riskless (for this particular asset) and at 0 cost;

0 risk and 0 cost (and do not star arguing that there is commission, so it is not 0 cost – for all practical purposes it is 0 cost) with gain potential - generally no one in his right mind offers such benefits. It is potentially a lot for nothing situation…
How one profits from this? – I do not know yet, working on it… all I know it is a situation that is so good it is not logical to exist. Close relative: lotto ticket at ~0 price and 10^-12 chance to win $100. => the lotto organizer is doing something wrong.

I like this kind of analysis... lets see if I can rephrase it.

You buy 1 BitUSD and short 1 BitUSD and we assume parity at the time you took the position; therefore your account looks like:

2 BTS held as collateral for 1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.

If BTS goes down your short position is wiped out and you can sell your 1 BitUSD for 2 BTS... break even.... it may be possible for someone else to call your short and thus the going price for you to sell your 1 BitUSD for may be less than 2 BTS.

If BTS doubles in value, then you can cover for .5 BTS and sell your 1 BitUSD for 2 for a grand total of 3.5 BTS, a gain of 1.5 BTS.
If you held 2 BTS then you could have had 4 BTS or a .5 BTS opportunity cost   

So the conclusion would be that the 'always win' move is to hold both at the same time...  If there is a always win position that might suggest there there is an always loose position and that the system is unbalanced.  Either that or the 'always win' move isn't truly an always win position.

So I think I found the problem with the analysis...  It is always win in terms of BTS, but if you do it in terms of USD then it isn't.   Lets run the same numbers again.

Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth $0.50 for a total of $1  (a 50% loss or more)
BTS doubles... you end up with 3.5 BTS worth a total of $7 for an opportunity cost of $1

If instead you had gone long 2 BitUSD then you would have ended up with 4 BTS worth $2.00 (break even or less). 

So I think we need to be very careful how we calculate our profits and losses with various trading strategies because it is very easy to be deceived into thinking you have gains which are just nominal rather than real.

To get a better understanding I will do the 2 possible neutral positions (let’s call them ‘Simple Neutral Position’ and ‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’)  in parallel, so it is easier to see the differences:

1.Open the position

‘Simple Neutral Position’
2 BTS  held on the balance sheet.
Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS. 

-------
‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’:
You buy 1 BitUSD and short 1 BitUSD and we assume parity at the time you took the position; therefore your account looks like:
2 BTS held as collateral for -1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   
Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 




2. Scenario - BTS doubles...:

‘Simple Neutral Position’  2BTS * $2 = $4;
‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’ – you sell your 1bitUSD and at the same price cover your short (i.e -1 bitUSD); 2 BTS collateral is released back to you; 2BTS * $2 =$4

3. Scenario - BTS crashes...:

‘Simple Neutral Position’: 2 BTS worth $0.33 for a total of $.66
‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’ ; your short was closed so you end with 0 BTS from the collateral; you have 1 bitUSD worth 3.03 PTS; you sell it and end up with 3 BTS; 3*$0.33~ $1

In the last scenario you see the enhancement;

3201
General Discussion / Re: List your IPO idea for Bitshares Me
« on: May 13, 2014, 05:52:22 am »
I have not very cool but very profitable idea: I will use Me for the IPO of my centralized exchange and payment processing company. (not a DAC, not on blockchain) almost old-fashioned.

The exchange will allow:
-Direct USD to bitUSD; CNY to bitCNY and Euro to bitEuro exchange - for a small fee.
- Direct BTC to bitBTC exchange.
The payment processing company will allow merchant to accept bitUSD instead of USD (and it will be cheaper for them also), and if they choose their account will be credited in USD for every bitUSD purchase.

….

After one  year or so, I will buy Stan ‘supertanker full with Coke and Enterprise-class starship, outfitted with a replicator’ ….
Then I will retire with the rest of the money to a nice place with no internet or TV...

3202
I do not think you have read the article you link to...

3203
General Discussion / Re: Selling something that you do not have!
« on: May 13, 2014, 04:52:33 am »
Using (no, leveraging) other peoples' money.
Is this a question?

3204
Explaining it at this hour is a tad difficult is correct and I did not wrote this CRUDE Form of the   “Have a cake and eat it too attack” for you to read before tomorrow. Also I hoped I will refine/clarify it till then so... night now

3205
Tony, your math is not adding up.  The initial cost is 2 BTS.   Please check it carefully.

Seems fine to me.... will double check though!
Yes you are right... it is wrong let see if this changes anything(it should not).

3206
General Discussion / Re: BitUSD question?
« on: May 13, 2014, 04:02:11 am »
thought the q was more like can you trade them directly i.e bitUSD to bitGold or you have to go bitUSD to BTS to bitGold

3207
CRUDE Form  of  “Have a cake and eat it too attack”
attack description:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57544#msg57544
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57576#msg57576


1. Due to publication in the internet (i.e. available to everyone) it is known that you can have risk free position in bitUSD (in the BTS X exchange) which cost 0 %.
2. It is also clear that in 99%+ of the time such position will make 0% dollars.
3. In order to increase your chances of success you must have your (1 bitUSD; - 1bitUSD) position as low as possible (as low as possible ratio bitUSD/USD).
4. Significant part of the market participants are aware of p.1-3, so coordinated or not, but in their joint knowledge and interest they drive the price of bitUSD low and take their neutral position (1 bitUSD; - 1bitUSD)
5. rest is history… the price is returning to near parity bitUSD/USD ~1; all who took their '1'/-1 position below ½ bitUSD/USD make money; all who took their 1/-1 position in the ½ to 1 range end up even; all who did not read about the “Have a cake and eat it too attack” pay for the party….


F*** !!!! The F***** thing is changing my 'plus ones' to  +5%

3208
General Discussion / Re: BitUSD question?
« on: May 13, 2014, 03:35:36 am »
Short bitUSD=long BTS
Long bitUSD= short BTS

Incorrect!

=====   +++++ ===== +++++ ======


Once you have bought bitUSD, will you be able to then buy bitGold or bit*?* with it?
That is question for Dan. Generally it is possible, and if I remember correctly his last response was that it will be possible...

3209
Updated post is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57694#msg57694
2 BTS held as collateral for 1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.


Actually correct:
2 BTS held as collateral for -1 BitUSD
-1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS


...continuing...updating... 5%....

this will likely lead this:
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth $0.50 for a total of $1  (a 50% loss or more)
BTS doubles... you end up with 3.5 BTS worth a total of $7 for an opportunity cost of $1

to be actually:
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth  a total of X  - IT does not matter what X is; You have 2 BTS worth the same as if you just bought 2 BTS and hold them.
BTS doubles + ... you end up with 1 BTS worth a total of $Z > $2  for an opportunity cost of $0

...updating... 7%....

BTW on a side note you are introducing the outside market in this discussion, which taints your analyses (probably due to the discussion with MolonLabe).
I am of the opinion that the outside market/s are important if you try to analyze the feasibility of the system (the general concept). And I consider an ‘attack’ only something that is implementation specific, and not something proving the general idea of the system inapplicable… But it is may be just me.
 

3210
General Discussion / Re: BitUSD question?
« on: May 13, 2014, 02:56:02 am »
Yes, you are correct bitUSD is created out of thin air… or just by the will power of the shorts… whatever explanation works for you…

But do not associate this with anything negative… soon I will be adding more info on other, well established market, working with the same ‘out of thin air’ asset creations here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4575.0

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