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Quote from: mf-tzo on February 08, 2015, 10:16:04 pmShouldn't the increase demand for bitusd increase BTS price?In general, if the demand for BitAssets is coming from the outside and there are people willing to short at the price feed, then I think that is a safe way of looking at it. If it is within BitShares, I don't think it should have an effect. On the other hand if the person holding the short is "demanding" BitUSD so he can cover his short to unlock his BTS collateral to then dump for fiat, then it would actually cause a decrease in BTS price (and you would also notice the correlating decrease in BitUSD supply).Basically, it is never as simple as "people demanding BitUSD" = "BTS price must go up".
Shouldn't the increase demand for bitusd increase BTS price?
Quote from: bytemaster on February 08, 2015, 06:05:01 pmQuote from: Rune on February 08, 2015, 06:01:19 pmLooks like everything already got covered, crisis over folks BitUSD supply is now at 500k, and 24 H volume is at 200k making it number 5 on CMC And people claim you cannot sell 200K of BitUSD at anywhere near $1 in one day. Looks like someone managed to exit their position at the FEED price. In other words they bought up $200K worth of BTS without moving the price. and is that good? just trying to understand... Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D
Quote from: Rune on February 08, 2015, 06:01:19 pmLooks like everything already got covered, crisis over folks BitUSD supply is now at 500k, and 24 H volume is at 200k making it number 5 on CMC And people claim you cannot sell 200K of BitUSD at anywhere near $1 in one day. Looks like someone managed to exit their position at the FEED price. In other words they bought up $200K worth of BTS without moving the price.
Looks like everything already got covered, crisis over folks BitUSD supply is now at 500k, and 24 H volume is at 200k making it number 5 on CMC
Quote from: arhag on February 08, 2015, 06:09:26 pmQuote from: Rune on February 08, 2015, 06:01:19 pmLooks like everything already got covered, crisis over folks Well let's still make sure the bug (meaning expired short covers at the price feed should match with short sells at the price feed) is fixed.Uhm, how did you come to the conclusion that everything got covered?
Quote from: Rune on February 08, 2015, 06:01:19 pmLooks like everything already got covered, crisis over folks Well let's still make sure the bug (meaning expired short covers at the price feed should match with short sells at the price feed) is fixed.
Looks like everything already got covered, crisis over folks
When I say above the price feed i mean that the bitasset is overvalued (so feed is in BTS per bitasset). I get super confused when the feed is described the other way so this is how I have to think of it .
Right this makes sense. As long as they'll get margin called if the collateral goes too low then there's nothing wrong with letting their order sit at the price feed. At first I thought it was unfair they wouldn't have to pay interest, but at high bitasset demand interest rate goes to 0 anyway.
If the feed is 100 BTS per bitUSD, then if there's a buy order at 115 BTS per bitUSD it should be possible to match that buy order and all other buy orders by shorting all the way down to the feed price for an instant expected profit (since you can expect bitasset price to tend towards the feed price). Then every time bitasset demand increases enough to make buy orders go above the feed, there will be an incentive to short the bitasset since you can be certain you will profit from the amount that the buy orders exceed the feed price.
Why? The point of expiration is to provide BitAsset holders with a guarantee that they can exit into BTS within 30 days at or above the price feed (in BitAsset/BTS). That is still true. They will eventually be able to put a relative BitUSD sell order at 0% offset from the price feed and then just wait. We can guarantee that their order will be matched within 30 days. There is no need to force expired orders to buy 10% below the price feed, unless of course their collateral ratio drops below 200% in which case they should then be margin called and buy any BitUSD sells at a price that is above the price 10% below the price feed (BTW, this is probably a good time to bring this comment to the attention of the developers).
There are good reasons why the price feed was first introduced. We don't want the short market to drive the growth of BTS priced in the underlying asset of the BitAsset, that should be done by the market between actual BitUSD holders and BTS (or actual USD holders and BTS on outside exchanges). Removing the limitation could instead break the peg and drive the value of the BitAsset to zero. Now that particular problem doesn't necessary limit us from changing the short limit to slightly above (in BitAsset/BTS) the price feed, say even 10% above (since if it does not reflect outside reality the price feed won't follow the shorts). But the worry I have with that is that it prevents existing BitAsset holders from having the guarantee to exit into BTS within 30 days by simply offering to sell at the price feed. If the shorts are very eager to short sell the BitAsset, the actual BitAsset holders may be forced to sell their BitAsset at a 10% discount from the peg.
It's a bit problematic that shorts aren't punished for expiring by getting forced to cover at a higher price,
I'd assumed that would be the case to avoid situations like what we're currently seeing.
But what I really don't understand is why my short at 115 BTS per bitUSD doesn't even show up on the orderbook. I'm really hoping this is a bug and not intentional.
If we're not able to short bitassets at above the pricefeed (bitassets priced in BTS, so above the pricefeed == bitasset overvalued) then increased demand for bitassets will not result in increased demand for bitshares, because you will not be able to short into buy orders above the feed and thus can't profit from increasing bitasset supply by locking up BTS.
Shorts will be forced to cover 10% above the feed starting 2 hard forks from now. There was a discussion about this a few weeks ago when lots of CNY orders expired
Quote from: Rune on February 08, 2015, 02:59:33 pmI just did a bitUSD short at a pricelimit of 115 BTS per USD. It didn't get matched even though it's within 10% of the feed,Why would your short get matched if its price limit is 115 BTS/BitUSD (or 0.008696 BitUSD/BTS)? The current price feed is 99.63 BTS/BitUSD or 0.010037 BitUSD/BTS. This means the expired shorts should buy any BitUSD sell orders at a price of 0.010037 BitUSD/BTS or above, which your order obviously is not. Also, expired shorts do not buy 10% below the feed (you are confusing that with margin called shorts). In this case 10% below the feed is 0.9 * 0.010037 BitUSD/BTS = 0.009033 BitUSD/BTS. Your short order has a price limit that is even below that! But even if your price limit was 0.0099 BitUSD/BTS it would still not be matched because it is below the price feed.
I just did a bitUSD short at a pricelimit of 115 BTS per USD. It didn't get matched even though it's within 10% of the feed,
Quote from: Rune on February 08, 2015, 02:59:33 pmI just did a bitUSD short at a pricelimit of 115 BTS per USD. It didn't get matched even though it's within 10% of the feed, and it's not even showing up on the orderbook. Looks like there is a bug of some sort. It's pretty bad because it removes the automatic incentive there'd otherwise be to get rid of these expired calls, I have a feeling that if they stay on the books for too long it'll be a major sell signal.Looks like normal orders that are up to 117 BTS per USD are not getting matched either. What can we do? We need to get rid of this ASAP.Yes, the 30 day limit was a terrible idea. I would like to know if this forced 30 day cover worked in the past?
I just did a bitUSD short at a pricelimit of 115 BTS per USD. It didn't get matched even though it's within 10% of the feed, and it's not even showing up on the orderbook. Looks like there is a bug of some sort. It's pretty bad because it removes the automatic incentive there'd otherwise be to get rid of these expired calls, I have a feeling that if they stay on the books for too long it'll be a major sell signal.Looks like normal orders that are up to 117 BTS per USD are not getting matched either. What can we do? We need to get rid of this ASAP.
Sold bitusd I had. But you're right. To hit a short, you would have to sell BTS a bit under the pricefeed. To hit the expired shorts you have to sell bitusd a bit above the price feed, like BM said.
Quote from: graffenwalder on February 08, 2015, 09:34:15 amQuote from: svk on February 08, 2015, 09:02:11 amQuote from: Rune on February 07, 2015, 06:55:20 pmQuote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 06:28:40 pmExpired shorts do not pay fees. They will sell to anyone with usd looking to sell at just above the feed. So can anyone with BTS short bitUSD right now at 10% above the feed and make an instant 10% gain? Then this "backlog" should disappear very quickly.No, I tried and it doesn't work.. There are shorts from the feed price up to +10% right now and no orders are executing.Quote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 07:21:35 pmIt will be covered by Monday is my prediction. How? They're not buying anything atm..Just tested it, but the expired shorts are buying bitusd when you sell a bit over the price feed. (not selling into BTS sell orders of course)Did you sell bitUSD you already had or short it? Cause there are shorts right now at the feed price that aren't being executed..
Quote from: svk on February 08, 2015, 09:02:11 amQuote from: Rune on February 07, 2015, 06:55:20 pmQuote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 06:28:40 pmExpired shorts do not pay fees. They will sell to anyone with usd looking to sell at just above the feed. So can anyone with BTS short bitUSD right now at 10% above the feed and make an instant 10% gain? Then this "backlog" should disappear very quickly.No, I tried and it doesn't work.. There are shorts from the feed price up to +10% right now and no orders are executing.Quote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 07:21:35 pmIt will be covered by Monday is my prediction. How? They're not buying anything atm..Just tested it, but the expired shorts are buying bitusd when you sell a bit over the price feed. (not selling into BTS sell orders of course)
Quote from: Rune on February 07, 2015, 06:55:20 pmQuote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 06:28:40 pmExpired shorts do not pay fees. They will sell to anyone with usd looking to sell at just above the feed. So can anyone with BTS short bitUSD right now at 10% above the feed and make an instant 10% gain? Then this "backlog" should disappear very quickly.No, I tried and it doesn't work.. There are shorts from the feed price up to +10% right now and no orders are executing.Quote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 07:21:35 pmIt will be covered by Monday is my prediction. How? They're not buying anything atm..
Quote from: bytemaster on February 07, 2015, 06:28:40 pmExpired shorts do not pay fees. They will sell to anyone with usd looking to sell at just above the feed. So can anyone with BTS short bitUSD right now at 10% above the feed and make an instant 10% gain? Then this "backlog" should disappear very quickly.
Expired shorts do not pay fees. They will sell to anyone with usd looking to sell at just above the feed.
It will be covered by Monday is my prediction.
Quote from: pc on February 07, 2015, 03:41:45 pmQuote from: Markus on February 07, 2015, 12:56:56 amIt looks like this is a BUG!Expired shorts are not matched against unlimited short orders. Selling BitUSD slightly below peg will get matched though.There's a known bug that unlimited shorts aren't considered when a short with a higher interest rate and a limit less than 0.9 of the feed price exists. https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares/issues/1315Quote from: Gentso1 on February 07, 2015, 03:11:05 pm"Short orders are forced to cover after 30 days by taking the best offers at the time. No fee is charged.Forced covers happen at the feed price or 10% below it.So the person or persons with the short in question, can they just let it ride forever? Are they still being charged interest?How does this end ?
Quote from: Markus on February 07, 2015, 12:56:56 amIt looks like this is a BUG!Expired shorts are not matched against unlimited short orders. Selling BitUSD slightly below peg will get matched though.There's a known bug that unlimited shorts aren't considered when a short with a higher interest rate and a limit less than 0.9 of the feed price exists. https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares/issues/1315Quote from: Gentso1 on February 07, 2015, 03:11:05 pm"Short orders are forced to cover after 30 days by taking the best offers at the time. No fee is charged.Forced covers happen at the feed price or 10% below it.
It looks like this is a BUG!Expired shorts are not matched against unlimited short orders. Selling BitUSD slightly below peg will get matched though.
"Short orders are forced to cover after 30 days by taking the best offers at the time. No fee is charged.
Quote from: xeroc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ on February 07, 2015, 04:39:47 pmHm .. ok .. my impression was that a expired short is different from a margin call in such that the expired short is auto-covered at exactly the feed and not above (below, depends on perspective)That's the plan for the future, I think. Right now, both are treated the same.
Hm .. ok .. my impression was that a expired short is different from a margin call in such that the expired short is auto-covered at exactly the feed and not above (below, depends on perspective)
an expiring short results in a FORCED cover? I thought exporation is different from margin calls?!?
If they're buy orders at the feed, why they do not buy all the short orders that sell at the price feed?
I would suggest for BM to sell/short to them some bitUSD...after all he is the strongest proponent of the idea that it is a good business practice to lend money and pay interest for the privilege to lend them funds... 0.02 BTS#200% collateral from shorts, as black-bird counter measures...