BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: monsterer on November 11, 2014, 09:23:34 am
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The release says '2 weeks', but it would be nice to have a hard number to work with :)
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you can register a 100% pay delegate , but you don't normally elect to be one , unless you're the core developer or great contributor who can bring value to the system. Normal people wants to be a 100% pay delegate , shareholders won't approve .
Normally , you can do 3% if you're ordinary people.
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The release says '2 weeks', but it would be nice to have a hard number to work with :)
(wallet closed) >>> blockchain_get_info
{
"blockchain_id": "75c11a81b7670bbaa721cc603eadb2313756f94a3bcbb9928e9101432701ac5f",
"symbol": "BTS",
"name": "BitShares",
"version": 109,
"db_version": 159,
"genesis_timestamp": "2014-07-19T03:18:40",
"block_interval": 10,
"max_block_size": 51200,
"max_blockchain_size": 107374182400,
"address_prefix": "BTSX",
"relay_fee": "0.10000 BTS",
"delegate_num": 101,
"max_delegate_pay_per_block": "50.00000 BTS",
"max_delegate_reg_fee": "8.12366 BTS",
"name_size_max": 63,
"memo_size_max": 19,
"data_size_max": 65536,
"symbol_size_max": 8,
"symbol_size_min": 3,
"asset_shares_max": 1000000000000000,
"short_symbol_asset_reg_fee": "137,842.38720 BTS",
"long_symbol_asset_reg_fee": "137,842.38720 BTS",
"max_pending_queue_size": 10,
"max_trx_per_second": 1,
"min_block_fee": "0.00000 BTS"
}
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"max_delegate_reg_fee": "8.12366 BTS",
Is that per block? In that case, how many blocks in two weeks?
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What prevents a large shareholder to vote in his own high pay delegate. Even if that one is eventually voted out he can just register a new one and start again.
I am still hoping BM considers separating delegates and employees.
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"max_delegate_reg_fee": "8.12366 BTS",
Is that per block? In that case, how many blocks in two weeks?
This is the one-time fee to register a delegate on the blockchain and has nothing to do with how much you earn as a delegate.. it depends first of all if you are voted up enough to produce blocks .. and then secondly on your payrate .. which is a parameter you have to specify when registering on the blockchain .. and can only be lowered ... not increased
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What prevents a large shareholder to vote in his own high pay delegate. Even if that one is eventually voted out he can just register a new one and start again.
I am still hoping BM considers separating delegates and employees.
currently the last active delegate has 5.72% approval .. if you own more than that in BTS .. you can upvote your own delegate into the top101 and actively produce blocks.
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This is the one-time fee to register a delegate on the blockchain and has nothing to do with how much you earn as a delegate.. it depends first of all if you are voted up enough to produce blocks .. and then secondly on your payrate .. which is a parameter you have to specify when registering on the blockchain .. and can only be lowered ... not increased
I'm confused - the one time fee both has nothing to do with, and also depends on the pay rate?
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I'm confused - the one time fee both has nothing to do with, and also depends on the pay rate?
Oh .. sorry .. you are right .. the delegate registration fee somehow depends on the payrate .. but I have no detailed information ..
you still need to pay that once (per registration and per registration update) .. not per block
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
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What prevents a large shareholder to vote in his own high pay delegate. Even if that one is eventually voted out he can just register a new one and start again.
I am still hoping BM considers separating delegates and employees.
currently the last active delegate has 5.72% approval .. if you own more than that in BTS .. you can upvote your own delegate into the top101 and actively produce blocks.
AlphaBar was saying on mumble after the last hangout that it's a lot less than the approval rate shown on the blockexplorer to get voted in because its only shows the active stake. He calculated that currently (4 days ago) control of only 2% of the total BTS supply is needed for a large stakeholder to vote themself into to a max-dilution delegate spot.
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Bullocks. Anyone with less than 15% will not get in without my approval because I can indirectly influence that much stake.
Once people get up in arms about a selfish delegate it will bring out the vote.
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AlphaBar was saying on mumble after the last hangout that it's a lot less than the approval rate shown on the blockexplorer to get voted in because its only shows the active stake. He calculated that currently (4 days ago) control of only 2% of the total BTS supply is needed for a large stakeholder to vote themself into to a max-dilution delegate spot.
I'd love to see that calculation ...
the last active delegate has 6% of ALL stake voting for him .. sure, due to dilution that percentage will decrease unless you get more votes over time .. but 2% sounds a little unrealistic at this point in time.
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Bullocks. Anyone with less than 15% will not get in without my approval because I can indirectly influence that much stake.
Let me highlight the important word here!
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Bullocks. Anyone with less than 15% will not get in without my approval because I can indirectly influence that much stake.
Let me highlight the important word here!
Thanks. To be clear I do not control the private keys for that much stake.
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
Thanks!
Is that the official, and exact number?
It's important to get this right so I don't make a mistake trying to raise the wrong amount of capital :)
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
Thanks!
Is that the official, and exact number?
It's important to get this right so I don't make a mistake trying to raise the wrong amount of capital :)
wait .... you do know the chance you're getting 100% payrate is nearly to zero , right ?
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
Thanks!
Is that the official, and exact number?
It's important to get this right so I don't make a mistake trying to raise the wrong amount of capital :)
wait .... you do know the chance you're getting 100% payrate is nearly to zero , right ?
Not if he is a developer that is going to contribute value of more than 2500$/month to the system. Because the registration fee is two weeks it will not be risky to hire him, as long as he provides comprehensive and fully transparent evidence that he's worth the money.
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
Thanks!
Is that the official, and exact number?
It's important to get this right so I don't make a mistake trying to raise the wrong amount of capital :)
wait .... you do know the chance you're getting 100% payrate is nearly to zero , right ?
Not unless you've got a big enough stake. Then you enjoy 100% pay rate for sometime before being voted out, then you register another and repeat.
It can be made unprofitable by increasing registration fee, but that only means higher barrier to entry of those who genuinely need 100% pay rate.
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
Thanks!
Is that the official, and exact number?
It's important to get this right so I don't make a mistake trying to raise the wrong amount of capital :)
wait .... you do know the chance you're getting 100% payrate is nearly to zero , right ?
Not unless you've got a big enough stake. Then you enjoy 100% pay rate for sometime before being voted out, then you register another and repeat.
It can be made unprofitable by increasing registration fee, but that only means higher barrier to entry of those who genuinely need 100% pay rate.
The registration fee is 2 weeks. Also it is ridiculous to think that someone a huge amounts of BTS stake would attack the blockchain he is invested in for such a tiny reward. The larger your stake in bitshares, the more you have to lose from anything that hurts bitshares.
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What about AGS funds, guys???
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10845#msg142799 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10845#msg142799)
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50/1010*60*60*24*14=59881
Thanks!
Is that the official, and exact number?
It's important to get this right so I don't make a mistake trying to raise the wrong amount of capital :)
wait .... you do know the chance you're getting 100% payrate is nearly to zero , right ?
Not unless you've got a big enough stake. Then you enjoy 100% pay rate for sometime before being voted out, then you register another and repeat.
It can be made unprofitable by increasing registration fee, but that only means higher barrier to entry of those who genuinely need 100% pay rate.
The registration fee is 2 weeks. Also it is ridiculous to think that someone a huge amounts of BTS stake would attack the blockchain he is invested in for such a tiny reward. The larger your stake in bitshares, the more you have to lose from anything that hurts bitshares.
currently it takes 142,835,792 btsx to be number 101.
142,835,792*.02=$2,856,715
now for this 2.8 mill you are going to be able to vote delegates in and collect $2,500 a month
I figure you would be able to get 3 in so max return is 7,500 a month.
I also figure You may get away with it for a month before people catch on then you have to rinse and repeat.
The only people I would really be worried about doing something like this is exchanges. They have demonstrated the have access to big stakes and sure why not play with the voting power to earn some passive income because in the end they are fine even if we fail.
If exchanges all ready use their clients shares to vote delegates in for less money now with btsx why wouldn't they do the same thing for bts?
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So if you want to be a delegate, you have to pay 2 weeks salary on the gamble people like your proposition. Then once elected in you work for free 2 weeks, or otherwise convince the stupidity of the crowds that you don't owe any work for 2 weeks? How does it work?
I love people talking about being a core developer as a requirement for $2500 a month. That doesn't pay enough for a part time (1/2 time) talented developer.
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What prevents a large shareholder to vote in his own high pay delegate. Even if that one is eventually voted out he can just register a new one and start again.
The fact that if he gets voted out prior to two weeks, he loses BTS.
You need to expect community support to make it worth it to register a paid delegate and pay that much BTS to get started.
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Bullocks. Anyone with less than 15% will not get in without my approval because I can indirectly influence that much stake.
Once people get up in arms about a selfish delegate it will bring out the vote.
What? When did that number become 15%? Last I remember it was 5% of BTS made possible via the snapshots to PTS obtained through the AGS campaign.
And if you do have indirect influence over 15% of stake, why are the delegate approval percentages so low? The maximum active delegate approval is 12.94% right now. The minimum is 5.72%! And the minimum approval percentage has been in the single digits for a while now. If you actually have indirect influence over that much stake, you would be able to make the approval rating for a delegate in rank 101 be at least 15% if you wanted (and I don't see a reason why you wouldn't want to do that for the sake of network security).
The fact that the approval percentage for the delegate at rank 101 is less than 6% right now makes me think it won't be as simple as you claim for you alone to prevent a colluding group with more than 6% stake to get a 100% pay delegate into the top 101. According to http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/genesis-bts, apparently it only takes at most 6 individuals (not counting the PaNGEL address of course) to collude together to get more than 6% of BTS. Of course, if that were to happen, hopefully it would kill the voter apathy and motivate more stakeholders to vote and increase the minimum active delegate approval percentage. I guess we just need to wait and see how the politics all work out.
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Bullocks. Anyone with less than 15% will not get in without my approval because I can indirectly influence that much stake.
Once people get up in arms about a selfish delegate it will bring out the vote.
What? When did that number become 15%? Last I remember it was 5% of BTS made possible via the snapshots to PTS obtained through the AGS campaign.
And if you do have indirect influence over 15% of stake, why are the delegate approval percentages so low? The maximum active delegate approval is 12.94% right now. The minimum is 5.72%! And the minimum approval percentage has been in the single digits for a while now. If you actually have indirect influence over that much stake, you would be able to make the approval rating for a delegate in rank 101 be at least 15% if you wanted (and I don't see a reason why you wouldn't want to do that for the sake of network security).
The fact that the approval percentage for the delegate at rank 101 is less than 6% right now makes me think it won't be as simple as you claim for you alone to prevent a colluding group with more than 6% stake to get a 100% pay delegate into the top 101. According to http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/genesis-bts, apparently it only takes at most 6 individuals (not counting the PaNGEL address of course) to collude together to get more than 6% of BTS. Of course, if that were to happen, hopefully it would kill the voter apathy and motivate more stakeholders to vote and increase the minimum active delegate approval percentage. I guess we just need to wait and see how the politics all work out.
I would vote very similarly to what BM is doing currently, if I controlled 15% of the votes. And he is not even saying he is controlling that much but just that he can influence that much.
What is the point of voting differently if there is no threat to the system and you also want the stakeholders to see how low the vote participation is.