BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ander on October 17, 2014, 06:21:17 pm

Title: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Ander on October 17, 2014, 06:21:17 pm
Imagine you are are new to bitcoin/cryptos, and you have just heard about bitshares for the first time.

You begin investigating it, and you discover the idea of DACs, Distributed Autonomous Corporations.  This is amazing!  You love the idea that a cryptocurrency should be more than just a coin, that it should be a company that makes money, that it should be profitable!

You find that you can buy Bitshares PTS, and in doing so, you will be given shares in all future DACs that are created by the bitshares community.  Forever!  This is amazing, you go buy some.  Its almost like a mutual fund of future DACs!

You investigate the current DACs in existence: BTSX, DNS, etc.  You buy some of the ones that interest you.


This is how we grow our community.  This is how we gain new people who are interested in the bitshares ecosystem.

***********


Now imagine that it is November 6, and you and you have just heard about bitshares for the first time.

You begin investigating it, and you discover the idea of DACs, Distributed Autonomous Corporations.  This is amazing!  You love the idea that a cryptocurrency should be more than just a coin, that it should be a company that makes money, that it should be profitable!

And then you discover that Bitshares PTS closed Nov 5, and now you can NEVER AGAIN buy into the ability to get shares of all future bitshares DACs.   You are shut out forever from this opportunity. 

Disgusted, and upset that there was such a great opportunity open to people in the past, but that they are denying you the opportunity to join them, you do not buy bitshares.  You do not become a member of the bitshares community, helping to spread the word about DACs in development, telling your friends about how they buy into a crypto which actually makes a profit.

Instead, you sit on message boards and whenever the topic of bitshares come up, you complain about how the distribution of their coins is unfair.



I feel it is ESSENTIAL to the health of our community, that there exists SOME token which newcomers can buy, which then gives them a piece of EVERYTHING the community makes.   I plead to you not to deny this opportunity to future newcomers, those who will be part of our lifeblood in the future. 

Crypto is still in its infancy, and new people are coming into the space every day.  We need to capture some of those people and make them believers in Bitshares, we need to grow, we need to gain more people working on more projects.  We will not succeed in that task if we forever divide the community into special old timers who are privileged enough to hold AGS/PTS pre snapshot, and newcomers who are prohibited from ever doing so.

Please do not do this.


Yes, please make PTS DPoS.  Or combine it with AGS into a new, tradable DPoS token.  Or whatever else you want to do to fix it.  Just do not deny newcomers the ability to ever buy it, because if you do, they will walk away from bitshares when they see that, and we will not grow the way we should.


Thanks for reading,

- A newbie Bitshares community member who would have walked away from bitshares instead of buying, if PTS had been closed.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: xeroc on October 17, 2014, 06:31:37 pm
why start a new thread?
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.0
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Ander on October 17, 2014, 06:32:57 pm
why start a new thread?
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.0

Because I dont think you guys realize how terrible of a decision this it, and the prevailing sentiment in that thread is to end PTS.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: testz on October 17, 2014, 06:34:07 pm
why start a new thread?
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.0

Because I dont think you guys realize how terrible of a decision this it, and the prevailing sentiment in that thread is to end PTS.

It's not decision yet, it's discussion.  :)
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Pheonike on October 17, 2014, 06:34:46 pm
If they want exposure to future DACS then they can buy and hold BTSX.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: matt608 on October 17, 2014, 06:36:00 pm
If they want exposure to future DACS then they can buy and hold BTSX.

How does holding BTSX expose its holders to future DACs?
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: xeroc on October 17, 2014, 06:36:50 pm
The subject of the other thread is

"Should we continue to funding mining of PTS?"

not: "hey guys, we are killing PTS .. no matter you like it"

As a long-term member here I can tell you that BM can be convinced and he always asks the community to come to a consensus!!!
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Ander on October 17, 2014, 06:37:13 pm
why start a new thread?
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10104.0

Because I dont think you guys realize how terrible of a decision this it, and the prevailing sentiment in that thread is to end PTS.

Its dangeorusly close to looking like a decision that I feel would kill our future community growth potential.
It's not decision yet, it's discussion.  :)
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: xeroc on October 17, 2014, 06:37:22 pm
If they want exposure to future DACS then they can buy and hold BTSX.

How does holding BTSX expose its holders to future DACs?
It does not!!
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Pheonike on October 17, 2014, 06:40:23 pm

If that new dacs uses bitusd and cross chain trading happens then an increase in bitusd will increase btsx. It's not a direct relationship yet.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: vegolino on October 17, 2014, 06:41:14 pm
There is absolutely no need for the new thread
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 17, 2014, 07:01:48 pm
I agree with this thread, and the idea that it warrants its own thread. While I think getting rid of PTS will held tremendously with branding and will alleviate confusion, the idea of forever closing off access to future potential BitShares converts with a VIP seniority program just sounds terrible...
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: bytemaster on October 17, 2014, 09:30:48 pm
Migration of PTS to BTSX asset is what I think is called for.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Ander on October 17, 2014, 09:39:12 pm
Migration of PTS to BTSX asset is what I think is called for.

That would be great. As long as anyone is still able to buy and sell it as desired.


Also, if we make PTS an asset inside BTSX, then instead of just being the #11 or so coin on coinmarketcap currency page, it can be #1-2 on the asset page.  We will have a something Bitshares related near the top of both lists! :)
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Pheonike on October 17, 2014, 09:41:48 pm
How about having AGS style drive for the remaining PTS coins. Then switch it over to a bitasset. This everyone a chance to get in on the end of PTS.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: gamey on October 17, 2014, 10:22:52 pm
Migration of PTS to BTSX asset is what I think is called for.

I get that resources need to be carefully considered and I am not sure how many man hours etc it would take to migrate this, but I would suggest you really listen to Ander.  I'm on the fence about this one and if not for a question of resources I would 100% be against "the last snapshot" idea. 

Perhaps this sort of technology could be leveraged elsewhere ? Bitcoin wallet snapshot -> DPOS user asset.  (hmmm. probably not.)


Pros and Cons of making last snapshot and ignoring PTS going forward -

Pros
1) Minimal labor and resources consumed.
2) Simplified marketing.  (Althought Protoshares doesn't really need to be marketed, it can be ignored)


Cons
1) Less marketing exposure via additional products
2) Another "change" for people to complain about.
3) People who bought PTS with ideas of liquidity are screwed, even if the last 300k are not mined.
4) DAC developers have to do a crowd sell for people to have a stake who weren't early adopters.
5) Cuts off new users into ecosystem.
6) Looks bad in general for a coin to just die like that.

In general the last snapshot idea suggests to me the idea of the toolkit is somewhat being abandoned or being pushed further off the roadmap.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 17, 2014, 11:27:50 pm
Migration of PTS to BTSX asset is what I think is called for.

That would be great. As long as anyone is still able to buy and sell it as desired.


Also, if we make PTS an asset inside BTSX, then instead of just being the #11 or so coin on coinmarketcap currency page, it can be #1-2 on the asset page.  We will have a something Bitshares related near the top of both lists! :)

 +5% Yeah it's a big decision and a short time frame. BM came up with the whole concept of PTS in the first place so I'm sure it's not something he's proposed lightly.

So I'm ok with it. Making PTS DPOS makes sense if we believe in DPOS and rather than having another 101 delegate system it makes sense to put it on BTSX. It would probably put it at no.2 on the coinmarketcap asset list which will become more important over time.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 12:56:18 am
There is another point I don't think anyone has brought up.

Lets say I am a developer writing a DAC a couple years from now.  I have to decide PTS/AGS allocations.  With liquid PTS I have a better demographic to get my DAC off and going.  (New users along with older users)  I can basically leverage existing exchanges to provide users who believe in my product.  Now if you make PTS static, I would have 2 demographics (AGS and PTS) that are roughly the same with no one new in the system.

So what is the logical thing to do ?  Make another distribution method.  Sharedrop on something popular and cut PTS down to 10%.  Or perhaps I'd just issue an asset somewhere if technically feasible.

This hurts I3 and those who are stuck with an illiquid PTS.  Static PTS would have much lesser value to rational DAC developers.  And if a developer happens to write a worthwhile DAC, they're likely quite rational.....
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: amencon on October 18, 2014, 03:13:29 am
How about having AGS style drive for the remaining PTS coins. Then switch it over to a bitasset. This everyone a chance to get in on the end of PTS.
I'd be OK with that, would probably buy a few more that way as well if the price was right.  I like the idea of another small round of crowd funding for I3 development without screwing anyone in the process.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 03:14:59 am
How about having AGS style drive for the remaining PTS coins. Then switch it over to a bitasset. This everyone a chance to get in on the end of PTS.
I'd be OK with that, would probably buy a few more that way as well if the price was right.  I like the idea of another small round of crowd funding for I3 development without screwing anyone in the process.

We would rather not use that fund raising strategy again when we have better options.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: amencon on October 18, 2014, 03:19:43 am
There is another point I don't think anyone has brought up.

Lets say I am a developer writing a DAC a couple years from now.  I have to decide PTS/AGS allocations.  With liquid PTS I have a better demographic to get my DAC off and going.  (New users along with older users)  I can basically leverage existing exchanges to provide users who believe in my product.  Now if you make PTS static, I would have 2 demographics (AGS and PTS) that are roughly the same with no one new in the system.

So what is the logical thing to do ?  Make another distribution method.  Sharedrop on something popular and cut PTS down to 10%.  Or perhaps I'd just issue an asset somewhere if technically feasible.

This hurts I3 and those who are stuck with an illiquid PTS.  Static PTS would have much lesser value to rational DAC developers.  And if a developer happens to write a worthwhile DAC, they're likely quite rational.....
I agree, the way I see it DAC code will grow more complex, effecient and effective much like any technology over time.  I'll bet years down the road we will see DACs built that will make the current ones look archaic.  I hope Bitshares brand is right there at that point in time building competitive and modern DACs to compete in the marketplace.  I think a liquid PTS helps encourage keeping the investors and innovators within the Bitshares ecosystem.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: amencon on October 18, 2014, 03:20:52 am
How about having AGS style drive for the remaining PTS coins. Then switch it over to a bitasset. This everyone a chance to get in on the end of PTS.
I'd be OK with that, would probably buy a few more that way as well if the price was right.  I like the idea of another small round of crowd funding for I3 development without screwing anyone in the process.

We would rather not use that fund raising strategy again when we have better options.
Fair enough, I also wouldn't be crushed if it doesn't happen.  Letting the rest of PTS get mined or distributing the remaining shares to current PTS holders also feel like fine options to me.
Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: Riverhead on October 18, 2014, 03:30:21 am
PTS cannot continue in it's current form. I am for shutting it down or creating something new.

As the flagship, poster-boy, champion, whatever you want to call it, of DPOS it is absolutely necessary that no part of our ecosystem rely on PoW.

There is nothing really lost by shutting it down. The Proto-Dac (A DAC that will require a hard fork to implement its main features) serves the same purpose of being in on the ground floor of that DAC. The only thing we're losing is people being able to buy once and gain all.  That was great before 3I proved itself but that is no longer the case.

Title: Re: Closing PTS would limit the growth of our community in the future
Post by: LadyHeadShoot on October 18, 2014, 10:27:48 pm
I thought that PTS was "is" experiment, project that could simultaneously test how BTC will look in the future

That's why I mined and still mining