BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: fuzzy on August 18, 2014, 09:33:17 pm

Title: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: fuzzy on August 18, 2014, 09:33:17 pm
ttp://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

Perhaps  some food for thought.  I'll leave it up to you guys to read and begin the conversation though---school time for me :P
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 18, 2014, 09:55:32 pm
I do not know why but this reminds me of TV segment on my local TV, about a café accepting bitcoins.
I will never forget one of the viewer's texts, expressing his/her opinion:

"Bitcoin is great, but what if it gets hacked? You then hove nothing, because there is nothing behind it"

Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: xeroc on August 18, 2014, 10:02:53 pm
Id day the author is not so much up-to-date

I can remember exactly that there are several pages of discussion to ensure that 6) does not happen .. and when it does the system will have means to clean it up ..
Also the author makes as much assumptions as BM, the devs and a bigger part of the community does ..

besides that it's a quite 'nice' description of what bitShares will achieve :)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on August 18, 2014, 10:06:54 pm
The more people who read the article, the more will join here because they would not want to hang out with the writer. Colors, pictures, writing style, as bad as the structure, red links.. It's an angry mans article.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on August 19, 2014, 04:50:15 am
The more people who read the article, the more will join here because they would not want to hang out with the writer. Colors, pictures, writing style, as bad as the structure, red links.. It's an angry mans article.

I agree with your critique. It's torturous and ponderous to read; talk about beating a dead horse of an argument. It would be fair if he'd stop to consider, just for a moment, that there might be something behind BitShares, a great demand that it is filling. He's a Bitcoin believer, so not a total moron, yet he fails to see that there's far more tangible substance to BitShares than there is to Bitcoin...the blockchain offers far more potential than a mere coin. Here are some interesting facts about the author of that piece, Mr. Byrne. First, he's a member of Ethereum's groupie group in London. So we know where his loyalties lie and why he's trying to bash BitShares. Obviously, he's not as open-minded as Vitalik or Hosk, et al. Second, he holds himself out as an expert in crypto regulation and a swanky securities lawyer-dude. In fact, Mr. Byrne was admitted as a solicitor less than three years ago.

His big advocacy issue appears to be the "crypto-ledger" which he says governments and banks should adopt. Such centralization would "enable a court to trace and fully reverse virtually every instance of fraud." Great, so that's why we need the blockchain? Evidently, you're not the first person to point out his issues with reading comprehension and with writing.

http://trilema.com/2014/in-which-we-teach-basic-reading-comprehension-to-a-certain-mr-preston-byrne/ (http://trilema.com/2014/in-which-we-teach-basic-reading-comprehension-to-a-certain-mr-preston-byrne/)
http://www.samizdata.net/2013/10/preston-byrne-on-what-is-and-is-not-the-solution-to-the-housing-crisis/  (http://www.samizdata.net/2013/10/preston-byrne-on-what-is-and-is-not-the-solution-to-the-housing-crisis/)
http://www.cityam.com/blog/1395145295/why-independent-venice-should-adopt-dogecoin  (http://www.cityam.com/blog/1395145295/why-independent-venice-should-adopt-dogecoin)
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/economics/help-to-what-moving-forward-from-conference-season/ (http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/economics/help-to-what-moving-forward-from-conference-season/)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 05:08:17 am
I thought the article was quite entertaining... it has been a while since I read such a scathing review that said more about the author than about BTS. 

It was like someone trying to argue that Bitcoin is "impossible" simply because there is nothing behind it.    To understand BitShares and BitAssets all you need to know are some very fundamental facts:

1) A digital asset has a non-0 value.   (Proven by 300+ alts with non-0 values)
2) A collateralized loan is a safe loan if the collateral is relatively liquid and stable
3) Prediction Markets Work.

Someone attempting to argue against those facts has a very large uphill battle to fight. 

The straw man arguments and inaccuracies reveal that he doesn't have enough information to make a rational evaluation of the system and thus even if there were something wrong you cannot trust him to know what it was.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on August 19, 2014, 05:16:06 am
I thought the article was quite entertaining... it has been a while since I read such a scathing review that said more about the author than about BTS. 

It was like someone trying to argue that Bitcoin is "impossible" simply because there is nothing behind it.    To understand BitShares and BitAssets all you need to know are some very fundamental facts:

1) A digital asset has a non-0 value.   (Proven by 300+ alts with non-0 values)
2) A collateralized loan is a safe loan if the collateral is relatively liquid and stable
3) Prediction Markets Work.

Someone attempting to argue against those facts has a very large uphill battle to fight. 

The straw man arguments and inaccuracies reveal that he doesn't have enough information to make a rational evaluation of the system and thus even if there were something wrong you cannot trust him to know what it was.

Exactly. It's as if he showed up for court without having prepared for his case. The more you read, the less he clearly knows about BitShares. Facts? Research? Meat? Ammunition? Who needs those distractions when you have a point to make. Too busy spreading vapor (or is that vapour?).
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 05:55:03 am
I thought the article was quite entertaining... it has been a while since I read such a scathing review that said more about the author than about BTS. 

It was like someone trying to argue that Bitcoin is "impossible" simply because there is nothing behind it.    To understand BitShares and BitAssets all you need to know are some very fundamental facts:


I am proud and happy when BM thinks like me (OK, I think like him). That is because, as with the times that we disagree, least one of us is correct.  :)

I do not know why but this reminds me of TV segment on my local TV, about a café accepting bitcoins.
I will never forget one of the viewer's texts, expressing his/her opinion:

"Bitcoin is great, but what if it gets hacked? You then have nothing, because there is nothing behind it"
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: cass on August 19, 2014, 05:57:02 am
Good morning,

enjoyed reading with my mornin coffee :)!
Thx for entertaining me.

thx for sharing
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: merockstar on August 19, 2014, 06:42:17 am
it has become imperative that we create bitMarmot as soon as possible, and peg it to the actual real world value of a live marmot.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 06:48:01 am
it has become imperative that we create bitMarmot as soon as possible, and peg it to the actual real world value of a live marmot.

It will be easier to just peg the author to bitMoron... At least we know that this peg will hold  :)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Ben Mason on August 19, 2014, 07:16:04 am
it has become imperative that we create bitMarmot as soon as possible, and peg it to the actual real world value of a live marmot.

It will be easier to just peg the author to bitMoron... At least we know that this peg will hold  :)

Lol, you just made my morning tea come out my nose....
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: gamey on August 19, 2014, 07:25:46 am

We just need to get him to send some links to bitshares.org ?  (naw, haven't read it..)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: mf-tzo on August 19, 2014, 07:32:25 am
Quote
It will be easier to just peg the author to bitMoron... At least we know that this peg will hold  :)

hahahahahaha!!! :)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: liondani on August 19, 2014, 08:13:17 am
lol
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: cass on August 19, 2014, 08:45:28 am
haha ...  +5%
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: santaclause102 on August 19, 2014, 09:11:31 am
The blog post was not very informed of course.
But I think it is provoked by too steep claims (With an effective yield on BitUSD of 20% per year you must compare it against other USD investments, such as lending it to the bank at 3% per year).
People find things suspicious that are too good to be true. And that is a healthy reaction in almost all cases. 
We can learn something from it too.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: fuzzy on August 19, 2014, 11:00:19 am
it has become imperative that we create bitMarmot as soon as possible, and peg it to the actual real world value of a live marmot.

lol...so glad to have posted this. 
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: luckybit on August 19, 2014, 03:25:08 pm
ttp://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

Perhaps  some food for thought.  I'll leave it up to you guys to read and begin the conversation though---school time for me :P

That is more than negative, it's an assault on the foundation of Bitshares. They are attacking the most fundamental part of the design.

In my opinion it shouldn't be given a response. You'll only make the blog more popular by responding to it. Just counter it with a good blog which has positive things to say and then win the SEO battle.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: thisisausername on August 19, 2014, 06:05:42 pm
The blog post was not very informed of course.
But I think it is provoked by too steep claims (With an effective yield on BitUSD of 20% per year you must compare it against other USD investments, such as lending it to the bank at 3% per year).
People find things suspicious that are too good to be true. And that is a healthy reaction in almost all cases. 
We can learn something from it too.

This!  This!!

The linked blog post is a case-study in how we're not getting through to everyone we could be.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:08:06 pm
Read this thread (including that article) from the perspective of someone new to Bitshares and you'll see a community that spends way more time making fun of or insulting the author but either doesn't know or can't make a single refutation of... anything... except by bytemaster saying that he makes different assumptions. 

His concerns may very well be uninformed, but if that's the case it seems all the more urgent to explain why he is wrong both for his knowledge and the betterment of the communities understanding of the highly complicated mechanisms at work behind market created bitassets.  Some humility and due-dilligence might also be in order given the tech he's questioning and you're defending are still totally unproven to work even as we assume they will.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 07:12:27 pm
Read this thread (including that article) from the perspective of someone new to Bitshares and you'll see a community that spends way more time making fun of or insulting the author but either doesn't know or can't make a single refutation of... anything... except by bytemaster saying that he makes different assumptions. 

His concerns may very well be uninformed, but if that's the case it seems all the more urgent to explain why he is wrong both for his knowledge and the betterment of the communities understanding of the highly complicated mechanisms at work behind market created bitassets.  Some humility and due-dilligence might also be in order given the tech he's questioning and you're defending are still totally unproven to work even as we assume they will.

Do you find it a good practice to first write an article and then ask for input on things you do not understand?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:15:12 pm
Read this thread (including that article) from the perspective of someone new to Bitshares and you'll see a community that spends way more time making fun of or insulting the author but either doesn't know or can't make a single refutation of... anything... except by bytemaster saying that he makes different assumptions. 

His concerns may very well be uninformed, but if that's the case it seems all the more urgent to explain why he is wrong both for his knowledge and the betterment of the communities understanding of the highly complicated mechanisms at work behind market created bitassets.  Some humility and due-dilligence might also be in order given the tech he's questioning and you're defending are still totally unproven to work even as we assume they will.

Do you find it a good practice to first write an article and then ask for input on things you do not understand?

Given he extensively cited Bytemaster, linked to the bitshares whitepaper and seemed to have a better understanding of Bitassets than about 99% of people I know in Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 07:17:32 pm
Read this thread (including that article) from the perspective of someone new to Bitshares and you'll see a community that spends way more time making fun of or insulting the author but either doesn't know or can't make a single refutation of... anything... except by bytemaster saying that he makes different assumptions. 

His concerns may very well be uninformed, but if that's the case it seems all the more urgent to explain why he is wrong both for his knowledge and the betterment of the communities understanding of the highly complicated mechanisms at work behind market created bitassets.  Some humility and due-dilligence might also be in order given the tech he's questioning and you're defending are still totally unproven to work even as we assume they will.


Do you find it a good practice to first write an article and then ask for input on things you do not understand?

Given he extensively cited Bytemaster, linked to the bitshares whitepaper and seemed to have a better understanding of Bitassets than about 99% of people I know in Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?

Some of his quotes were not cited and are wrong (or out of context).   It is true that education needs to be improved.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:20:25 pm
Read this thread (including that article) from the perspective of someone new to Bitshares and you'll see a community that spends way more time making fun of or insulting the author but either doesn't know or can't make a single refutation of... anything... except by bytemaster saying that he makes different assumptions. 

His concerns may very well be uninformed, but if that's the case it seems all the more urgent to explain why he is wrong both for his knowledge and the betterment of the communities understanding of the highly complicated mechanisms at work behind market created bitassets.  Some humility and due-dilligence might also be in order given the tech he's questioning and you're defending are still totally unproven to work even as we assume they will.


Do you find it a good practice to first write an article and then ask for input on things you do not understand?

Given he extensively cited Bytemaster, linked to the bitshares whitepaper and seemed to have a better understanding of Bitassets than about 99% of people I know in Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?

Some of his quotes were not cited and are wrong (or out of context).   It is true that education needs to be improved.

Can someone on your team who isn't you take the time to respond to the article explaining why he's wrong?   As you know, I've always been confused by Bitassets for basically the same reasons he is, and continue to think your major innovative contribution is Protoshares which was the first token that gave people another token.   

I'm sure my understanding as well as his would benefit from a meaningful and point by point response to this article.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 07:24:49 pm
Quote
continue to think your major innovative contribution is Protoshares which was the first token that gave people another token.   

I don't know whether I should be offended by that or not  :o  Given TITAN + DPOS + RoboHash + BitAssets...

Lets watch this week as it goes live and people can experience it.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 07:29:07 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?


Operative word 'thinks'(as in believes), which apparently gives him the right to put his inner anger in semi-decent piece of writing.

And No, I do not find any value in reputing every word somebody decides to put out there, especially if the main focus of the author is to show us how great he is in proving his own statements.

[EDIT]
I am not connected to III in any way shape or form, so I promise everybody who comes here and asked to get the truthful answer to the best of my ability and understanding. And this includes which part of the system are indeed tests of certain theories. And why they are believe/hoped/expected to work.

Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 07:34:18 pm
Quote
continue to think your major innovative contribution is Protoshares which was the first token that gave people another token.   

I don't know whether I should be offended by that or not  :o  Given TITAN + DPOS + RoboHash + BitAssets...

Apparently Adam thinks PTS is more innovative than TITAN or DPOS  ??? ::)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:37:39 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?


Operative word 'thinks'(as in believes), which apparently gives him the right to put his inner anger in semi-decent piece of writing.

And No, I do not find any value in reputing every word somebody decides to put out there, especially if the main focus of the author is to show us how great he is in proving his own statements.

Do you understand Bitassets?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: gamey on August 19, 2014, 07:39:51 pm
Wow.  After reading this I bothered to actually read the referenced post.  I couldn't get past point 3-4 because the author already lost me because it is so amateurish.

It is quite caustic and obviously not written to engage anyone in a sincere discussion.    Reply to it ?  Really???

There was a blog post that was well written in its criticisms of DPOS/Bitshares and I remember Toast actually praising it.  The suggestion that this one thread is indicative of the whole community... I do not know where to begin.

There is the whole "don't lower yourself to their level" idea.

If Adam is a sincere person he'll point out specifically what points are of interest to him, and not suggest the whole thing seems authentic in some way. 

We'll see.... 
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 07:41:43 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?


Operative word 'thinks'(as in believes), which apparently gives him the right to put his inner anger in semi-decent piece of writing.

And No, I do not find any value in reputing every word somebody decides to put out there, especially if the main focus of the author is to show us how great he is in proving his own statements.

Do you understand Bitassets?

Mainly.
I am  as tech-not-savi as you are. Sorry, not meant as an insult, if you have hi esteem in your abilities in that field.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: BldSwtTrs on August 19, 2014, 07:42:01 pm
I am really looking forward to see BitAssets running. If it works it will be huge, maybe the most important invention for human kind since Bitcoin. But honestly I am skeptical.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:42:52 pm
Quote
continue to think your major innovative contribution is Protoshares which was the first token that gave people another token.   

I don't know whether I should be offended by that or not  :o  Given TITAN + DPOS + RoboHash + BitAssets...

Apparently Adam thinks PTS is more innovative than TITAN or DPOS  ??? ::)

Its not intended to be an insult, TITAN DPOS are both reinventions of a wheel that already exists.  TITAN is Bitcoin Privacy made simple, DPOS is a mix of POS and the ripple consensus style with a quasi-democracy layer on it.  They might accomplish the same thing differently, but they are a better wheel, not one that didn't previously exist.

Giving someone a token that will later give them another token that has value for another reason was a genuine first.  Real progress where the rest is optimization, I talk about the difference between these two things here (http://"http://www.ofnumbers.com/2014/03/04/foreword-2/")

I don't know what RoboHashes are, and as I've mentioned I don't really understand why Bitassets will work.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:45:19 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?


Operative word 'thinks'(as in believes), which apparently gives him the right to put his inner anger in semi-decent piece of writing.

And No, I do not find any value in reputing every word somebody decides to put out there, especially if the main focus of the author is to show us how great he is in proving his own statements.

Do you understand Bitassets?

Mainly.
I am  as tech-not-savi as you are. Sorry, not meant as an insult, if you have hi esteem in your abilities in that field.

Yeah see this is the issue, I don't understand why it will work  I understand why it is supposed to work (grossly simplified: because people won't bet against reality since they can't control which way everybody else bets so unless the majority of the market colludes against itself the bitasset should track the real asset) but I don't see why this would work.    My interest in Protoshares was that it gave me something else, the what-was-the-something-else never really mattered.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 07:49:31 pm
I do not think anybody has ever said 'IT WILL' work. The best I have ever heard is 'This SHOULD work because...'
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 07:52:15 pm

I do not think anybody has ever said IT WOULD work. The best I have ever heard this SHOULD work because...

It is like trying to explain to someone how a bank works, almost no one knows or understands and yet they use them every day.  What is a dollar or a bitcoin?  99% of the people who use them don't understand.   So trying to get people to understand how BTSX works when they don't even understand stuff that has been around for 5 years or 100's of years and they use every day seems like a unreasonable expectation.... 

However, I am betting the farm that it will work :)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: xeroc on August 19, 2014, 07:56:57 pm
However, I am betting the farm that it will work :)
that quote is meant to be on a shirt!
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: gamey on August 19, 2014, 07:58:07 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?


Operative word 'thinks'(as in believes), which apparently gives him the right to put his inner anger in semi-decent piece of writing.

And No, I do not find any value in reputing every word somebody decides to put out there, especially if the main focus of the author is to show us how great he is in proving his own statements.

Do you understand Bitassets?

Mainly.
I am  as tech-not-savi as you are. Sorry, not meant as an insult, if you have hi esteem in your abilities in that field.

Yeah see this is the issue, I don't understand why it will work  I understand why it is supposed to work (grossly simplified: because people won't bet against reality since they can't control which way everybody else bets so unless the majority of the market colludes against itself the bitasset should track the real asset) but I don't see why this would work.    My interest in Protoshares was that it gave me something else, the what-was-the-something-else never really mattered.

It is a very complicated thing and I think you've probably struck on the point that it needs the most explanation.  We have some analogies but they still leave one hanging at an overview level of understanding.  Perhaps walking through examples with real money and explaining the outcome is the next thing that should be done.  Maybe then you can suggest what doesn't click with you.  That would be welcome.

There is this, but it needs better content.  http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg (http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg)

BTW I bought PTS too without having any interesting in Bitshares X, but now the whole idea intrigues me to no end.  It might work, might not.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 08:08:37 pm
However, I am betting the farm that it will work :)

Speaking of betting:

@BM, Stan needs to post a picture of the farm otherwise I just take your bet against all the bitUSD I currently own!  :)

@AdamBL - I am ready to take you bet on which of the 2 will work - bitUSD or LTBcoin.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 08:12:25 pm
However, I am betting the farm that it will work :)

Speaking of betting:

@BM, Stan needs to post a picture of the farm otherwise I just take your bet against all the bitUSD I currently own!  :)

@AdamBL - I am ready to take you bet on which of the 2 will work - bitUSD or LTBcoin.

I don't bet on things I don't understand, your results may vary.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Simeon II on August 19, 2014, 08:18:14 pm
I am  as tech-not-savi as you are. Sorry, not meant as an insult, if you have hi esteem in your abilities in that field.

@AdamBL - I am ready to take you bet on which of the 2 will work - bitUSD or LTBcoin.

I perceive some negative opinions on the bestest of the best coin developers in the world, tonyk!

... There will be consequences!
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 08:20:13 pm
The farm I am betting is the farm I could buy if I sold out today :)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: pgbit on August 19, 2014, 08:23:44 pm
By way of explanation, this article was posted by a founder of Eris Industries:

http://www.linkedin.com/company/eris-industries?trk=ppro_cprof (http://www.linkedin.com/company/eris-industries?trk=ppro_cprof)

"Eris Industries designs and builds distributed autonomous organisations (DAOs) and smart contract solutions for corporate and institutional applications using advanced technology to reduce client costs with a specialization in the finance, insurance, and construction sectors."

"Eris Industries was founded by Casey Kuhlman, Dennis McKinnon and Preston Byrne after its founders designed, built, and deployed the world's first useable DAO platform."

This platform reportedly runs on .... Ethereum:
http://www.coinfeed.net/news/lifestyle/bitcoin-millionaire-announces-the-winner-of-his-100k-bounty.html (http://www.coinfeed.net/news/lifestyle/bitcoin-millionaire-announces-the-winner-of-his-100k-bounty.html)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Pheonike on August 19, 2014, 08:24:00 pm
Do you own any BitShares Adam? If you expect them to rise in value then you are in essence betting on something you don't understand.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Gentso1 on August 19, 2014, 08:26:11 pm
Before I start my opinion I am not a trader or shorter and have no real interest in playing the market so to speak.

I understand that to create a bit asset you need to use btsx as collateral.

I believe most of this hinges on btsx basically holding some value. As the author puts it if btsx lost alot of value very quickly this would cause the system to close(I believe thats the term) on said collateral.

I understand that bitusd will be pegged through feeds to the price of usd(so they trade roughly the same other then the point of interest to bitusd), which in theory so give bitusd a edge.


I have been exploring the next forums and have been doing research on how their asset's work. Basically anyone can make any asset with no collateral and it seems to be based solely on reputation. I think it will be interesting to see how it develops but for the moment it is pretty ripe with scams. I did find it interesting that a company has been created and is offering a service to audit real world holdings so that digital assets have a little more weight(no pun) to them. I think its a interesting idea. Heck I would like to see a system that is able to use different kinds of digital assets(bitcoin, pts, nxt, whatever.....) and also has  a mix where users can create their own asset, pay a company to come out and audit them for their real world holdings. Best of both worlds. I believe bitshares has the potential to do all of the above and more with the addition of contracts.

Please understand this is just my rudimentary understanding and feel free to correct me where necessary..... :P
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Shentist on August 19, 2014, 08:28:36 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks he understands it. Did you not get that impression?


Operative word 'thinks'(as in believes), which apparently gives him the right to put his inner anger in semi-decent piece of writing.

And No, I do not find any value in reputing every word somebody decides to put out there, especially if the main focus of the author is to show us how great he is in proving his own statements.

Do you understand Bitassets?

no, but out there are trillions on asset backed securitys, Collateralized Debt Obligation (CDO) and so on and so on invested in USD and no one understands them. in reality it doesn't matter. Thats the whole point. bitAssets are not a new invention. Already used thousends of times in existing markets. Futures, Options etc. .  The point in BTSX is, it is total decentralised, the rules are open. No one is frontrunning, no one is hidden betting against you. You can not prefent everything. But the market could/should be working.

why did i know it? because i am from the future and i already saw it, it is already in my past. so don't worry guys.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 08:31:09 pm
The farm I am betting is the farm I could buy if I sold out today :)

To be totally honest your farm is safe, based on the rest of the stuff you have developed.
You are just betting that the peg will work and you will be the next Bill Gates (both moneywise and name-recognition-wise)

My $2000 or 2 BTSX.  :)
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: gamey on August 19, 2014, 08:39:33 pm
By way of explanation, this article was posted by a founder of Eris Industries:

http://www.linkedin.com/company/eris-industries?trk=ppro_cprof (http://www.linkedin.com/company/eris-industries?trk=ppro_cprof)

"Eris Industries designs and builds distributed autonomous organisations (DAOs) and smart contract solutions for corporate and institutional applications using advanced technology to reduce client costs with a specialization in the finance, insurance, and construction sectors."

"Eris Industries was founded by Casey Kuhlman, Dennis McKinnon and Preston Byrne after its founders designed, built, and deployed the world's first useable DAO platform."

This platform reportedly runs on .... Ethereum:
http://www.coinfeed.net/news/lifestyle/bitcoin-millionaire-announces-the-winner-of-his-100k-bounty.html (http://www.coinfeed.net/news/lifestyle/bitcoin-millionaire-announces-the-winner-of-his-100k-bounty.html)

If I was looking for a firm to implement something and came across that blog post of his I would likely have had the same reaction I did reading it from this forum.  Good luck with that approach, Preston Byrne.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Shentist on August 19, 2014, 08:46:34 pm
from

ttp://prestonbyrne.com/

Quote
I’m an associate lawyer with Norton Rose Fulbright’s London office, a fellow of the Adam Smith Institute, and a co-founder of Project Ðouglas and Eris Industries.

My primary practice (securitisation) consists mainly of advising on a range of asset-backed transactions including CMBS, RMBS, covered bonds, esoteric ABS such as utilities and transport, and credit support/risk transfer arrangements including single-tranche and portfolio guarantees. The securitisation team regularly acts for a broad cross-section of public and private sector industry participants, including issuers, trustees, borrowers, guarantors and investors.

As to cryptocurrency and decentralised computing (crypto), I’m currently focusing on industrial uses for blockchains – particularly commercial applications for smart contracts/DAOs. I consult regularly with established industrial enterprises, developers and entrepreneurs in the space, both within my practice and independently. If you’re in the field and have a business or legal query, please feel free to get in touch – my contact details are at the bottom of this page. I’d be happy to hear from you.

Uniquely among global law firms, Norton Rose Fulbright has an active international crypto practice, and the firm represents a range of clients in the space. We regularly advise on domestic or cross-border business issues encountered in the industry, whether in relation to (i) tax, (ii) insolvency, (iii) corporate formation and governance, (iv) intellectual property,  (v) crowdfunding, payment services or other financial regulation, (vi) KYC and AML, (vii) litigation, (viii) structuring and securities, or (ix) venture capital financing from the firm’s network of offices in over 50 cities worldwide.

As to the ASI, my current interests include housing reform and alternative finance – including, naturally, cryptocurrency, on which I regularly blog, give talks or provide press comment.

All views expressed on this website are solely my own. They do not represent the views of Norton Rose Fulbright or the Adam Smith Institute.

now i read his blog post. sry, i just read from the start insults to the whole projects. that's piss me off. He claims he is a lawyer, but who can expect fairness from a lawyer?

Quote
My primary practice (securitisation) consists mainly of advising on a range of asset-backed transactions including CMBS, RMBS, covered bonds, esoteric ABS such as utilities and transport, and credit support/risk transfer arrangements including single-tranche and portfolio guarantees. The securitisation team regularly acts for a broad cross-section of public and private sector industry participants, including issuers, trustees, borrowers, guarantors and investors.

sry, i am just laughing loud. he is one of this over paid guys who fucked up the whole planet and just pretend they saved us all. he can not be on "our" side, because he gets paid from people they are totally against crypto, bitcoin 2.0 and so on. it would be to ask Ben Bernanke if this project can success. He will tell "no".

the answer is on the field, so just wait and smash us later.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 08:58:08 pm

From the article I learned that he knows the 2 sides of the balance sheet.

The reason why each item goes on this particular side, is a concept above his pay grade...
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 09:14:57 pm
Can someone on your team who isn't you take the time to respond to the article explaining why he's wrong?   

I'm sure my understanding as well as his would benefit from a meaningful and point by point response to this article.

I'm not on Bytemaster's team and I certainly would not consider myself even remotely qualified enough to speak on their behalf but here's my own point by point breakdown and thoughts on why the article is FUD:

1. This is wrong because funding for the Bitshares ecosystem came from donations (AGS) and PTS not from BTSX.

2. This is ridiculous.  Since when is it frowned upon to encourage communities to write articles about upcoming projects or discuss emerging technologies?  Why is it bad to have a nice website?  And why does he think being ignorant ("technobabble") about new technologies is cool?

3.  He plainly states "'decentralized companies' aren't actually companies" so he already has his mind made up that DACs and DAOs aren't real.  Again, plain ignorance and unsubstantiated.

4.  This is wrong because his example is not analogous with how BitsharesX works.  First, he says that it's 'sort of like buying a mortgage that's secured on itself instead of a house'.  That's not analogous because such an example uses dollars to buy debt secured by debt instead of an asset.  BitsharesX would be closer to converting your bank stock equity to USD and depositing that USD at a the same bank.

5.  He says a lot of nothing then he only looks at one side of the trade as he states, "Anyone bringing a BitAsset into existence will be betting that BTSX will rise vis a vis the price of that associated asset."  False.  Further, he states "Most significantly, anyone who wants to bet against BTSX against a BitAsset (though it might make more sense to just short it against Bitcoin on, e.g., a third party exchange) cannot do so without buying BTSX and posting BTSX as collateral first."  This is also not completely accurate because bitAssets could be acquired outside of the exchange and traded against each other.  Even if that weren't true (correct me if I'm wrong there), I fail to see the difference between how BTSX works versus a centralized bank or exchange.  You have to first have USD to short a stock and when you sell you have to convert back to dollars.  Trading on Gox you'd have GoxUSD that's only backed by Gox.

6. He's correct regarding increased exposure to BTSX during price declines; however, his other statements are unsubstantiated as he hasn't seen any of the fundamentals or algos for the prediction market and does not know to what extent the system is able to cover.  Also, his entire example with GM is inaccurate as he's treating it as a traditional derivative with both sides posting collateralized debt obligations and the like.  Futhermore, his scenario ends with a value destruction which doesn't occur in BitsharesX..BTSX just trades the risks.  So yes, increased exposure to the underlying is a risk but as an stockholder that just means your equity holdings increase.  So the risk would equate to holding more BTC in a falling BTC environment if you held a bitAsset... oh no!

7. He phrases his argument as if purchasers of bitAssets are being deceived by what they represent which is also unsubstantiated.  "No word on what happens if the price of BitShares collapses completely, such that every BitAsset is chronically under-collateralised."  Right there he's of the impression that Bitshares (and likely all cryptos) have a natural real world value of zero.  A ridiculous statement given the success of Bitcoin and the top 300 cryptos with a non-zero balance.  He also is ignorant of the market mechanics regarding Bitshares insurance for shorts undercollateralized and doesn't address that in a selloff there'd be an increase in dividends (or burn) that would also help alleviate the downward pressure.

8. He's not even making a new argument here; he's still trying to milk the argument of undercollateralized loans.  Not only that but it sounds like he's confused regarding who actually owns a bitAsset since holders of bitAssets are long positions.  Additionally, he's also forgetting that bitAssets can trade against each other and the only downside being increased exposure to BTSX.  Again, this is no different than being in a falling USD environment and having increased exposure to USD and bitching about how the value of your bonds is being effected.

9. "?"

10. ?

11. "this is a month-old cryptocurrency that makes money by issuing redeemable asset-backed promissory notes".  The system makes money from transaction fees alone.  He's wrong yet again because bitAssets are long positions.  So what his argument really boils down to is that a black swan event or extreme downward movement in BTSX will make holders of bitAssets have greater exposure to BTSX so the system is doomed to implode on itself... as if that possibility doesn't exist in every monetary system ever created.  He makes a bunch of unsubstantiated assertions lacking proper understanding of the system or market behavior but still remains proud of his ignorance.  Splendid.   
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: ripplexiaoshan on August 19, 2014, 09:23:03 pm
I am happy to see such long articles about BTSX, no matter it's positive or negative. At least we know the attitude from the perspective of outsider.   
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: 38PTSWarrior on August 19, 2014, 09:33:44 pm
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on August 19, 2014, 09:35:25 pm
No one has mentioned a single good point that author made, since he didn't have any. The big point about BitShares he missed, in my opinion, is its element of collateral. This is a securities lawyer who either doesn't understand the fundamental definition of a secured transaction or he didn't take the time to read that far in the whitepaper. If the man is a Bitcoin believer, then how can he possibly think BitShares is any 'worse' than Bitcoin in terms of intrinsic value? Because it's not as if we'd be arguing with someone who thinks Bitcoin and the blockchain are worthless. BitShares accomplishes far more, and fills more needs, than does Bitcoin. If it catches on the same way, then this guy's going to be deleting his blog post.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on August 19, 2014, 09:38:00 pm
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

Yep, that's Adam for you. Hopefully, everyone will enjoy Mr. Byrne's discussion of smart ledgers and anti-government rhetoric. Fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 10:13:37 pm

From the article I learned that he knows the 2 sides of the balance sheet.

The reason why each item goes on this particular side, is a concept above his pay grade...

lol so true.

By way of explanation, this article was posted by a founder of Eris Industries:

http://www.linkedin.com/company/eris-industries?trk=ppro_cprof (http://www.linkedin.com/company/eris-industries?trk=ppro_cprof)

"Eris Industries designs and builds distributed autonomous organisations (DAOs) and smart contract solutions for corporate and institutional applications using advanced technology to reduce client costs with a specialization in the finance, insurance, and construction sectors."

"Eris Industries was founded by Casey Kuhlman, Dennis McKinnon and Preston Byrne after its founders designed, built, and deployed the world's first useable DAO platform."

This platform reportedly runs on .... Ethereum:
http://www.coinfeed.net/news/lifestyle/bitcoin-millionaire-announces-the-winner-of-his-100k-bounty.html (http://www.coinfeed.net/news/lifestyle/bitcoin-millionaire-announces-the-winner-of-his-100k-bounty.html)

HAHA! That's hilarious since he's so adamant that DACs aren't real ("'decentralized companies' aren't actually companies") yet DAOs are real.  ::) It takes a really sleazy lawyer to argue such semantics especially after previously criticizing other language as "technobabble". LOL
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 10:15:49 pm
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

The only element of surprise here, for me at least, is that Preston Byrne is actual person and not pseudonym of AdamBL's.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: oco101 on August 19, 2014, 10:16:33 pm
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

The only element of surprise here, for me at least, is that Preston Byrne is actual person and not pseudonym of AdamBL's.
lol
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on August 19, 2014, 10:32:30 pm
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

The only element of surprise here, for me at least, is that Preston Byrne is actual person and not pseudonym of AdamBL's.

Who knows? Adam clearly has multiple personalities. Does he do voices, too? Channeling Robin Williams... Preston Byrne is an American who moved to the UK so he doesn't even need a swanky accent.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: liondani on August 19, 2014, 11:39:31 pm
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

The only element of surprise here, for me at least, is that Preston Byrne is actual person and not pseudonym of AdamBL's.

 +5%

Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: fuzzy on August 20, 2014, 07:37:36 am
Preston Byrne is on the Let's talk bitcoin show today: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-137-eye-of-the-beholder

The only element of surprise here, for me at least, is that Preston Byrne is actual person and not pseudonym of AdamBL's.

 +5%

lol...cheap shot cheap shot. 
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: MktDirector on August 20, 2014, 03:20:21 pm
What's interesting is this guy doesn't allow comments on his blog post.  Guess he doesn't want to enter the arena of ideas and have his challenged.  But he does have a place to email him directly. I suggest we win him over, or attempt to rather than fight him.  His opinion is based on a lot of ignorance about BitShares, but it's good practice for all of us to win over our worst critics, or attempt to, even if we dont.  What's amazing to me is that with as many people as we meet and talk to at all the events we attend, rarely do we find anyone who has more than one or two objections...so bloggers like this are certainly in the minority..... B
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on August 20, 2014, 04:24:11 pm
What's interesting is this guy doesn't allow comments on his blog post.  Guess he doesn't want to enter the arena of ideas and have his challenged.  But he does have a place to email him directly. I suggest we win him over, or attempt to rather than fight him.  His opinion is based on a lot of ignorance about BitShares, but it's good practice for all of us to win over our worst critics, or attempt to, even if we dont.  What's amazing to me is that with as many people as we meet and talk to at all the events we attend, rarely do we find anyone who has more than one or two objections...so bloggers like this are certainly in the minority..... B

I think if we ignore him, then no one will care what he thinks anyway. We can let our success speak for itself. But you are right; if someone wants to engage with him, then it should be in a positive and educational manner.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 21, 2014, 02:52:24 pm
What's interesting is this guy doesn't allow comments on his blog post.  Guess he doesn't want to enter the arena of ideas and have his challenged.  But he does have a place to email him directly. I suggest we win him over, or attempt to rather than fight him.  His opinion is based on a lot of ignorance about BitShares, but it's good practice for all of us to win over our worst critics, or attempt to, even if we dont.  What's amazing to me is that with as many people as we meet and talk to at all the events we attend, rarely do we find anyone who has more than one or two objections...so bloggers like this are certainly in the minority..... B

Totally agree he should be engaged with and educated, but I think your final comment might be more indicative of trouble than the good you seem to be implying from it.  Preston works professionally in the non-crypto comparable industry to what Bitshares X hopes to accomplish (derivatives).  Because of that, he has context with which to look at Bitshares X and say "Oh, it's the same from conventional tools in this way and different in these ways and this is what that means" which I'm willing to bet most of the "bloggers" do not.   

When you speak to these "bloggers" how many of them actually understand how Bitassets work, or even think they do vs. how many are just trusting that Dan knows what he's talking about and think it sounds really neat.

Do you understand how Bitassets work well enough to respond to this article?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: xeroc on August 21, 2014, 03:51:32 pm
What's interesting is this guy doesn't allow comments on his blog post.  Guess he doesn't want to enter the arena of ideas and have his challenged.  But he does have a place to email him directly. I suggest we win him over, or attempt to rather than fight him.  His opinion is based on a lot of ignorance about BitShares, but it's good practice for all of us to win over our worst critics, or attempt to, even if we dont.  What's amazing to me is that with as many people as we meet and talk to at all the events we attend, rarely do we find anyone who has more than one or two objections...so bloggers like this are certainly in the minority..... B

Totally agree he should be engaged with and educated, but I think your final comment might be more indicative of trouble than the good you seem to be implying from it.  Preston works professionally in the non-crypto comparable industry to what Bitshares X hopes to accomplish (derivatives).  Because of that, he has context with which to look at Bitshares X and say "Oh, it's the same from conventional tools in this way and different in these ways and this is what that means" which I'm willing to bet most of the "bloggers" do not.   

When you speak to these "bloggers" how many of them actually understand how Bitassets work, or even think they do vs. how many are just trusting that Dan knows what he's talking about and think it sounds really neat.

Do you understand how Bitassets work well enough to respond to this article?
*agreed*
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Xeldal on August 21, 2014, 04:22:20 pm
What's interesting is this guy doesn't allow comments on his blog post.  Guess he doesn't want to enter the arena of ideas and have his challenged.  But he does have a place to email him directly. I suggest we win him over, or attempt to rather than fight him.  His opinion is based on a lot of ignorance about BitShares, but it's good practice for all of us to win over our worst critics, or attempt to, even if we dont.  What's amazing to me is that with as many people as we meet and talk to at all the events we attend, rarely do we find anyone who has more than one or two objections...so bloggers like this are certainly in the minority..... B

Totally agree he should be engaged with and educated, but I think your final comment might be more indicative of trouble than the good you seem to be implying from it.  Preston works professionally in the non-crypto comparable industry to what Bitshares X hopes to accomplish (derivatives).  Because of that, he has context with which to look at Bitshares X and say "Oh, it's the same from conventional tools in this way and different in these ways and this is what that means" which I'm willing to bet most of the "bloggers" do not.   

When you speak to these "bloggers" how many of them actually understand how Bitassets work, or even think they do vs. how many are just trusting that Dan knows what he's talking about and think it sounds really neat.

Do you understand how Bitassets work well enough to respond to this article?
I agree that in general not finding criticism, doesn't mean you're doing it right.

Does Preston understand bitAssets well enough to write the article in the first place?

I was a professional in the same or similar field and will say that I would not trust half these people to pick up my garbage. (oddly the individual i eventually partnered with independently, was actually a trash man, but that's another story)  I would not want 98% of financial 'professionals' managing my finances, as I would not take economic advice from 98% of professional economists. How many journalists do you feel get it right because their profession is journalism?   Ones profession does not always equate thorough, correct understanding.  In fact its often people outside the 'industry' that break the mold.  A professional is often too entrenched in his world view to see the value in what doesn't fit.  I think we can agree here that what we're talking about, for many may require a new view of the world.

I don't mean to say Preston doesn't know what he's doing, or that he has nothing to offer to the conversation, but he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to bitAssets/BitShares, and so regardless of what he does professionally, his opinion about bitAssets, so far, carries little weight for me.

So, what I'm getting at is, someones profession can lend credence to their opinion, though, if what they say illustrates a clear lack of understanding or proper investigation of the topic, its garbage, just like any other.

Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: yellowecho on August 21, 2014, 04:41:35 pm
Totally agree he should be engaged with and educated, but I think your final comment might be more indicative of trouble than the good you seem to be implying from it.  Preston works professionally in the non-crypto comparable industry to what Bitshares X hopes to accomplish (derivatives).  Because of that, he has context with which to look at Bitshares X and say "Oh, it's the same from conventional tools in this way and different in these ways and this is what that means" which I'm willing to bet most of the "bloggers" do not.   

When you speak to these "bloggers" how many of them actually understand how Bitassets work, or even think they do vs. how many are just trusting that Dan knows what he's talking about and think it sounds really neat.

Do you understand how Bitassets work well enough to respond to this article?

I agree with your point and think its a valid one.  With that said, I've responded to each of the items from the article and believe the author is jumps to many conclusions out of ignorance of how the system functions leading to mostly unsubstantiated conclusions.  For instance, in most of his 'analogous' examples he treats trades as if they're traditional derivative contracts rather than being balance sheet neutral.  He's correct about increased exposure of the underlying (BTSX) but the exact same risks exist in real world markets so it's a moot point.. not to mention that he lacks adequate knowledge as to what extent the system is capable of covering in such extreme events.  If increased exposure to BTSX equity is his only real criticism (which seems to be the case) then I'm confident BTSX will do quite well moving forward.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 21, 2014, 05:26:34 pm
Totally agree he should be engaged with and educated, but I think your final comment might be more indicative of trouble than the good you seem to be implying from it.  Preston works professionally in the non-crypto comparable industry to what Bitshares X hopes to accomplish (derivatives).  Because of that, he has context with which to look at Bitshares X and say "Oh, it's the same from conventional tools in this way and different in these ways and this is what that means" which I'm willing to bet most of the "bloggers" do not.   

When you speak to these "bloggers" how many of them actually understand how Bitassets work, or even think they do vs. how many are just trusting that Dan knows what he's talking about and think it sounds really neat.

Do you understand how Bitassets work well enough to respond to this article?

I agree with your point and think its a valid one.  With that said, I've responded to each of the items from the article and believe the author is jumps to many conclusions out of ignorance of how the system functions leading to mostly unsubstantiated conclusions.  For instance, in most of his 'analogous' examples he treats trades as if they're traditional derivative contracts rather than being balance sheet neutral.  He's correct about increased exposure of the underlying (BTSX) but the exact same risks exist in real world markets so it's a moot point.. not to mention that he lacks adequate knowledge as to what extent the system is capable of covering in such extreme events.  If increased exposure to BTSX equity is his only real criticism (which seems to be the case) then I'm confident BTSX will do quite well moving forward.

Increased exposure relative to WHAT?   Owning BitUSD you have less exposure,  Shorting BitUSD you have more exposure than just holding BTSX.  It is really a very simple trading of risks/rewards between consenting parties.

*IF* the market peg doesn't hold well enough (insufficient liquidity, manipulation, etc) then we have a very simple fall back option:

1) The delegates publish a price feed
2) All trades must be within X% of the price feed

If there is not enough liquidity it is also possible for the network to "print" BTSX necessary to make great deals relative to a trusted feed.  IE: if BitUSD bids are over 10% above the feed, print BTSX to short BitUSD and if it is under the feed by 10%, cover the short.   Simply knowing there is unlimited sell pressure at 10%+ and a large cover at -10% could also enhance the system.  The benefit of this "system trading" is that the profits from shorting high and covering low go to the shareholders. 

Bottom line, we are going with the most market-based solution first and have fall backs to feed based solutions if they prove necessary. 

The feed-based solution is a non-brainer to understand and would work, it is simply a prediction market with 100 panel judge. 

Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: liondani on August 21, 2014, 05:44:18 pm
If there is not enough liquidity it is also possible for the network to "print" BTSX necessary to make great deals relative to a trusted feed.  IE: if BitUSD bids are over 10% above the feed, print BTSX to short BitUSD and if it is under the feed by 10%, cover the short.   Simply knowing there is unlimited sell pressure at 10%+ and a large cover at -10% could also enhance the system.  The benefit of this "system trading" is that the profits from shorting high and covering low go to the shareholders.

 +5% +5% +5%

let's do it!
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on August 21, 2014, 05:45:59 pm
If there is not enough liquidity it is also possible for the network to "print" BTSX necessary to make great deals relative to a trusted feed.  IE: if BitUSD bids are over 10% above the feed, print BTSX to short BitUSD and if it is under the feed by 10%, cover the short.   Simply knowing there is unlimited sell pressure at 10%+ and a large cover at -10% could also enhance the system.  The benefit of this "system trading" is that the profits from shorting high and covering low go to the shareholders.

 +5% +5% +5%

let's do it!

I think the market peg will be so effective that those trading rules would never be hit in the first place.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: yellowecho on August 21, 2014, 07:13:49 pm
Increased exposure relative to WHAT?   Owning BitUSD you have less exposure,  Shorting BitUSD you have more exposure than just holding BTSX.  It is really a very simple trading of risks/rewards between consenting parties.

I'm referring to the scenario mentioned by the author.  He's basically trying to make the case that bitAssets won't hold market peg if BTSX has huge volatility to the downside because they'll be 'unbacked' by real world USD... or to put it another way, the value of all outstanding bitAssets will largely exceed the value of all BTSX during a black swan so it will implode on itself.

Scenario: If BTSX has a market cap of $100M and there are $50M worth of bitAssets issued and a black swan happens .. if the market cap of BTSX falls to $1M then those with bitAssets are screwed because their bitAssets would be greatly undercollateralized so if they wanted to cash out in USD they'd do so at huge loss.

But as I said, many of his conclusions are unsubstantiated for a number of reasons.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: matt608 on September 29, 2014, 09:10:18 am
So, I'm learning about this about this and trying to get my head around it.

So he's saying that the loans the shorts take out are backed by BTSX.  So if the value of btsx goes down enough, it will trigger margin calls of the shorts and in order to pay them back the shorts have to sell their collateral, which is BTSX, which causes more downard pressure on the price, triggering more margin calls, causing more downward pressure resulting in a cascading of margin calls plunging the BTSX price and rendering the bitassets unbacked, resulting in the whole thing imploding and everyone losing a ton of money.

From my padawan learner mind, this appears so far like a valid criticism. and I haven't seen anything convincing to counter it.  100% of this 'bank's' collateral is in its own 'shares'.  I did some googling of 'loans collateralized by bank stock' and it seems in some states in might be forbidden and in others it may be allowed, but I'm not certain.  Now this is a decentralized system so I not going to go into what laws may hypothetically apply, but if this type of system is sometimes not allowed, it makes me wonder why?

I am not fudding and I might just misunderstand and there are probably some protection mechanisms I don't understand yet.  Maybe there is some other solution too though, like requiring other types of collateral such as BTC or LTC, to reduce the exposure to BTSX.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: santaclause102 on September 29, 2014, 09:45:02 am
I agree with the post from the blog that being humble and making not too bold claims comes across as more trustworthy!

In your analysis the following didn't make sense to me:
Quote
and in order to pay them back the shorts have to sell their collateral
The collateral (BTSX) is held by the system in order to be able to guarantee the long position that it can be paid out any time. Not selling of BTSX is necessary. No?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: matt608 on September 29, 2014, 10:03:46 am
I agree with the post from the blog that being humble and making not too bold claims comes across as more trustworthy!

In your analysis the following didn't make sense to me:
Quote
and in order to pay them back the shorts have to sell their collateral
The collateral (BTSX) is held by the system in order to be able to guarantee the long position that it can be paid out any time. Not selling of BTSX is necessary. No?

Ah ok, well if that's the case that is a bit better.  This will be a fascinating experiment.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Method-X on September 29, 2014, 06:48:20 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: sschechter on September 29, 2014, 06:54:41 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?

I hope he didn't sell out of all his shares before the run-up.....
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on September 29, 2014, 07:11:48 pm
Because the philosophy of this community is slightly different than his. 
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: xeroc on September 29, 2014, 07:20:30 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?
He left for Dogeparty
http://www.dogeparty.io/#dp-team

.. not kidding
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: donkeypong on September 29, 2014, 07:21:44 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?
He left for Dogeparty
http://www.dogeparty.io/#dp-team

.. not kidding

And THAT's all you need to know about that cat...or doge.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on September 29, 2014, 07:25:08 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?

He did?  Why nobody informed me about that? Somebody concerned about my well being and  me consuming too much alcohol in da celebration of that or what?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: Method-X on September 29, 2014, 07:35:07 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?
He left for Dogeparty
http://www.dogeparty.io/#dp-team

.. not kidding

Much stupid. Very wow.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: sschechter on September 29, 2014, 07:43:52 pm
Why did AdamBLevine leave the community?
He left for Dogeparty
http://www.dogeparty.io/#dp-team

.. not kidding

Much stupid. Very wow.

 +5%

.....of course they went with Proof of Burn

.....because being 'fair' trumps being sane
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: oco101 on September 29, 2014, 08:38:42 pm
Yup indeed his philosophy is very different...
 
"What we need is an alternative, something cheap, plentiful and fast. Turns out there are quite a few options out there that meet this need, but my favorite by far is Dogecoin."
"LTBCOIN is not moving to Doge... yet... But as I've always said, LTB is focused on solutions in the new digital economy more than being a ra-ra we're all going to be rich about Bitcoin. If there is an obviously better solution to accomplish a given task, we'll use it."

Adam B. Levine
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on September 29, 2014, 09:52:10 pm
Yup indeed his philosophy is very different...
 
"What we need is an alternative, something cheap, plentiful and fast. Turns out there are quite a few options out there that meet this need, but my favorite by far is Dogecoin."
"LTBCOIN is not moving to Doge... yet... But as I've always said, LTB is focused on solutions in the new digital economy more than being a ra-ra we're all going to be rich about Bitcoin. If there is an obviously better solution to accomplish a given task, we'll use it."

Adam B. Levine

He never explained why he did not launched his coin on NXT to begin with... at least BTSX was not available yet, so it was good enough of an excuse... but on the Counterparty dinosaur.... ????
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: mf-tzo on September 29, 2014, 09:55:26 pm
yeah...counterparty is really awesome...slower than bitcoin...whenever I tried it I got asleep in front of my monitor..lol
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: tonyk on September 29, 2014, 09:59:24 pm
yeah...counterparty is really awesome...slower than bitcoin...whenever I tried it I got asleep in front of my monitor..lol

So, you do not want to wait for 6 confirmation (10 min each on average (although whenever I have had order on counterparty the first block usually takes  55 min)) to see how you order does not go through for no apparent reason whatsoever?
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: mf-tzo on September 29, 2014, 10:01:20 pm
hahahahaha
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: liondani on October 01, 2014, 10:03:04 am
I really hope they continue to pump doge for a long time...
No matter I don't have a single dogecoin, it would be priceless !


Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: gamey on October 01, 2014, 10:18:19 pm

fork bitshares x, snapshot 80% to ltbcoin, 20% to AGS/PTS.  Name it LTBcoin2 and you have a winner.
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: testz on October 03, 2014, 07:23:13 pm
Please check:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809378.0
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: xeroc on October 09, 2014, 11:03:32 am
Please check:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809378.0
Reading these comments just makes me smile :)
They simply don't (and probably won't) "get it" any time soon ..
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: bytemaster on October 09, 2014, 05:58:24 pm
Remind them that even bitcoin had a bug that allowed bitcoin to be created due to integer overflow. 

In our case it was a 32 bit abs function that bit us. 
Title: Re: Negative Post about Bitshares
Post by: testz on October 27, 2014, 02:10:16 pm
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809378.msg9345364#msg9345364