BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on November 27, 2014, 05:09:09 pm

Title: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: bytemaster on November 27, 2014, 05:09:09 pm
I have posted before that I liked Sparkle as a concept but there are many people who still worry that it will hurt BitShares.   

Being proof of work Sparkle is fundamentally less efficient and predictable than BitShares.   Proof of work is not sustainable at large scales and of course leads to centralization and control.   Anyone who has been following BitShares long enough knows that anything based upon Proof of Work is no threat in the long term.

However, just because we know that Proof of Waste is a dead end, there are literally 10's of thousands of individuals out there who view anything other than Proof of Waste as a scam.    There are even exchanges that refuse to list any proof of stake coins.   

Sparkle gives BitShares a huge marketing opportunity because I suspect that 50% of people who investigate/try Sparkle will ultimately convert to BitShares.   In a way Sparkle is like giving away PromoShares in BitShares without having to dilute BitShares.

Lets make an assumption that Sparkle can get into the top 10 cryptos, that is good for BitShares because every Sparkle user ultimately learns about how BitAssets work.  It will then have a development budget on par with BitShares via its dilution. 

Sparkle will have a harder time forking to upgrade.  While BitShares can fork "at will" by simply voting out delegates that don't upgrade in a timely manner.  Sparkle will be mined by thousands of individual computers that will have to upgrade.   This will force Sparkle to have a slower upgrade path than BitShares and ultimately Sparkle users will switch to BitShares to get the latest features.

BitShares has lost a large portion of our user community twice:  once when we dropped mining and a second time when we introduced dilution.    Sparkle provides a way to welcome these users back into the fold because Sparkle has a hard limit on sparks and because it uses mining.   

Sparkle also has paid positions that will be able to fund development of infrastructure that will help BitShares.   If sparkle funds wallets, block explorers, marketers, etc then that is all going to help BitShares and help grow our ecosystem.

Sparkle gives our community initial control over how development funds from paid workers are allocated.   If we are wise we will hire initial workers that will fund projects that serve both our chains such as gateways and other open source items.  If sparkle manages to "grow" and "kill" bitshares, well we learned a valuable lesson.   Would you rather own a small stake in something big or a  big stake in something small?   Because we all have a stake in Sparkle we can view it as a hedge.   

Mining has been approved by governments where as delegate positions are less clear.  Having a version of BitShares based upon mining helps us achieve our real goals of a long-lasting solution by having some redundancy.     

So rather than compete with Sparkle we should attempt to give it support and respect and welcome every Sparkle user to our forums and teach them in a friendly way the benefits of DPOS over POW without deriding Sparkle.    Lets have a unified community built around extending the philosophy of freedom first and not divide ourselves on religious divides such as POW.

Some have critiqued Sparkle for having such a high dilution rate, but I contend that is necessary to grow a solid base of support.   Mining does one thing right, it only allocates stake to those who are interested in a project early on.   On day one Sparkle will have a low initial market cap, without high dilution there is little incentive for anyone to get on board such a fledgling system.  The dilution rate falls off quickly.   Bitcoin produced  5 million BTC the first year.  The second year it had 100% inflation (50% dilution).    If you look at the inflation rate from when bitcoin had 1 million until a year later when it had 6 million you are looking at a much higher dilution rate than Sparkle is planning.   

Like all things in life, perspective matters.  Proof of work isn't dead yet and therefore Sparkle may be the best marketing stunt the BitShares community could pull.   

Just an opinion, but I say we fully back Sparkle as an onramp to reach new users that we couldn't reach directly with BitShares.   

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: xeroc on November 27, 2014, 05:24:35 pm
They honor the socl consensus .. so they deserve our support ..
They will get my support ..

+5%
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: onceuponatime on November 27, 2014, 05:28:37 pm
My original objection was that Sparkle was trying to poach the already very limited developer and other talent away from BitShares to his own project and doing so on our forum at our expense. And diluting our efforts doing so for a doomed (POW) project (and diluting our "Proof of Waste" meme).

However, your post has gone a long way to mitigating my concerns. Thank you.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: feedthemcake on November 27, 2014, 05:53:37 pm
 +5%
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: santaclause102 on November 27, 2014, 06:39:59 pm
The OP makes complete sense with respect to sparkle being good for bitshares marketing as well as it being a backup for bitshares.

Quote
Mining has been approved by governments where as delegate positions are less clear.  Having a version of BitShares based upon mining helps us achieve our real goals of a long-lasting solution by having some redundancy.     

So rather than compete with Sparkle we should attempt to give it support and respect and welcome every Sparkle user to our forums and teach them in a friendly way the benefits of DPOS over POW without deriding Sparkle.    Lets have a unified community built around extending the philosophy of freedom first and not divide ourselves on religious divides such as POW.
  +5%

I say: If sparkle should fulfill the role described in the OP it needs to go as high as possible in terms of market cap which in return only works if (future) sparkle holders have confidence that it is not only a marketing gimmick but a serious back up appraoch to bitshares as well as a real alternative for POW supporters.

I think sparkle could benefit bitshares greatly but it could also be nothing and just ignored all depending on what future perspective sparkle and his team can show to today's and future sparkle holders!

Imagine: TV Advertisements about sparkle "Bitcoin just with advances features (decentralized and fully collateralized banking). That only works if Sparkle is approached as a serious project.

To me a serious approach would necessarily include a team with talent and real world identities revealed.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Vizzini on November 27, 2014, 06:49:50 pm
Just withhold your precious bodily fluids. Whatever you do, don't hand those over!
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: inarizushi on November 27, 2014, 06:51:21 pm
I like the "Proof of Waste" so much. I'm all in Bitshares because of your great discussion on the unsustainability of mining. If this is the main story the BitShares community tells to attract people, and at the same time we support a PoW project, it makes the message incoherent. And if we have to mitigate the message just because someone who doesn't believe it happens to respect the social consensus, then it does hinder our power (and even our freedom of speech !).

But the OP is definitely very wise.

My original objection was that Sparkle was trying to poach the already very limited developer and other talent away from BitShares to his own project and doing so on our forum at our expense. And diluting our efforts doing so for a doomed (POW) project (and diluting our "Proof of Waste" meme).

However, your post has gone a long way to mitigating my concerns. Thank you.
+5%


Just withhold your precious bodily fluids. Whatever you do, don't hand those over!

LOL. I'd definitively buy Larimer spermCoins (I guess that's rude, sorry ! But those genes need to spread !)
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: arhag on November 27, 2014, 07:04:27 pm
Thoughts?

I wrote and rewrote multiple paragraphs trying to explain my thoughts on this issue, but ultimately gave up. I will just summarize it as follows:

This is either a smart move for BTS or a suicidal one. Not sure which.

Granted even in the suicidal scenario, it is only the BTS stake that dies, not this whole community. Current AGS, PTS, and BTS holders would each have approximately an 8% fraction of the total stake after two years. Still, it would really suck to have your stake reduced by more than an order of magnitude because the BitShares community bet on the wrong strategy to grab new users.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: cass on November 27, 2014, 07:15:01 pm
 +5% they will get my support!
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: donkeypong on November 27, 2014, 07:29:54 pm

Just withhold your precious bodily fluids. Whatever you do, don't hand those over!

LOL. I'd definitively buy Larimer spermCoins (I guess that's rude, sorry ! But those genes need to spread !)

I'd guess that's an inside joke, based on BM's title for this thread. The movie was "Dr. Strangelove or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb". If you haven't seen it, do. The crazed general in the movie is concerned with retaining his precious bodily fluids, amongst other obsessions.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: inarizushi on November 27, 2014, 07:42:59 pm

Just withhold your precious bodily fluids. Whatever you do, don't hand those over!

LOL. I'd definitively buy Larimer spermCoins (I guess that's rude, sorry ! But those genes need to spread !)

I'd guess that's an inside joke, based on BM's title for this thread. The movie was "Dr. Strangelove or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb". If you haven't seen it, do. The crazed general in the movie is concerned with retaining his precious bodily fluids, amongst other obsessions.

Thanks for the explanation, I shall cultivate myself !
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: CLains on November 27, 2014, 07:51:22 pm
Sparkle is PoW to BitShare's PoS!
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Ben Mason on November 27, 2014, 07:56:55 pm
 +5% loving sparkle for the potential to reunify our communities.....more and more excited about developments every day  +5%
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 27, 2014, 10:18:15 pm
Great show of support.  It is very much appreciated.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: inarizushi on November 27, 2014, 10:26:25 pm
Does the BitShares team know sparkles personally ? He is new to the community : why is he given so much confidence ? Did he deliver a great product ? Did he bring great ideas (behind "he put back proof of work when we finally got rid of it") or did anything to deserve the support he is shown by all the leading developers ?

I really don't get why we are supposed to "love" any project that respects the social consensus. Respecting the social consensus is not a proof a project is great. Please focus marketing on BitShares before getting sparkle an onramp and fully support it. "BitShares fully support proof of waste", come on, that's bad.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: mf-tzo on November 27, 2014, 10:30:23 pm
Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: inarizushi on November 27, 2014, 10:37:56 pm
Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: bytemaster on November 28, 2014, 01:02:56 am
Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.

No, I am not abandoning the idea that mining is absurd.   It is clearly absurd!   
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 01:13:27 am
Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.

No, I am not abandoning the idea that mining is absurd.   It is clearly absurd!   

I'm offended.  If that is your attitude then I am out of here.

Just Kidding.   

POW is an untapped market that someone needs to serve.   For those who view POS as a dead end, guaranteed to fail they will like Sparkle.   The two camps don't have to change their opinion, just agree to disagree and focus on the end result.   
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: jwiz168 on November 28, 2014, 02:05:23 am
Honoring the original plans of Bitshares is without a question the reason why Sparkle is here to stay. No matter POW or POS, doesn't matter. This was what Invictus trumpeted all along last year (polymorphic digital assets). I am really glad that I have envisioned this as a great way to invest .
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Riverhead on November 28, 2014, 03:38:57 am
This is a great manifestation of the power of endorsement.

The bigger story here is adoption. Bitshare's engine promises to free people from financial tyranny. The underlying consensus mechanism isn't as important. The market is huge and both will probably have a long life. Heads we win tails they lose.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Troglodactyl on November 28, 2014, 05:44:56 am
Excellent!  I think that 15 years from now, POW will be mostly dead.

Right now though, and perhaps for the next few years, there's a large market of people who demand it, and we might as well sell them what they want in a way that leads them toward better things instead of away from them.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: BldSwtTrs on November 28, 2014, 01:19:48 pm
Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.

No, I am not abandoning the idea that mining is absurd.   It is clearly absurd!   
How can you say it's absurd when your actions have shown how valuable mining is?
With PoW the BTS/BTSX protocol wouldn't have change. PoW is better for preserving the scarcity of the tokens and that definitely has a price.

If we have to spend dozen of billions $ each year to have the most reliable and usable ledger of the history of mankind, that's not absurd to pay that price. You have construct BTS with the paradigm of profitability in mind. That's all well and good, but BTC should rather be judge as a public good rather than as a business. Profitability doesn't matter for BTC, what matter are security and stability.

BTS is a business, BTC is a public good. I think what is absurd is to think they both have to be conceptually molded in a the same single paradigm.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: bytemaster on November 28, 2014, 01:50:32 pm
Public good it statist think.   Economy always matters.   

There are many fallacies in your post.  Proof of waste does not makes coins scarce.  The protocol does.  In fact proof of waste makes coins more abundant than necessary by diluting to pay for the waste. 

But like I said we will agree to disagree and support the sparkle experiment.  Obviously people who think like you will value sparkle more than bts. 
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: BldSwtTrs on November 28, 2014, 02:35:39 pm
Public good it statist think.   Economy always matters.   

There are many fallacies in your post.  Proof of waste does not makes coins scarce.  The protocol does.  In fact proof of waste makes coins more abundant than necessary by diluting to pay for the waste.   
Yes so the protocol makes the coin scarces and PoW makes changes in the protocol more difficult. So if we follow the causal chain we get that PoW protects the scarcity better.

I am not a statist, the term public good is not necessarily politically loaded. It's an economic concept first and foremost. Language is a public good, alphabet too, gold too. I can use them and enjoy their value freely, unless other people use some force and politics to prevent me to do so. All technological advances create public goods (and it doesn't prevent their users and inventors to profit from them economically), public goods are the byproducts of the market. They are just a specific type of positive externalities.

The alphabet create so much value that it's worth it to waste (!) some time to learn it. Gold used to create so much value for its users that it's worth it to "waste" some capital to mine it.

Your position is that PoS can create as much value than PoW, with less cost. But I think your position is oblivious to the fact that a good chunk of the value created by PoW is specific to PoW. The value created by PoW is not homogeneous with the value created by PoS.

PoS and PoW both create different, non-fungible, kind of value. Therefore the way of thinking "the costs are lower with PoS while the value it creates is potentially the same, so PoW is absurd" is flawed.
Quote
But like I said we will agree to disagree and support the sparkle experiment.  Obviously people who think like you will value sparkle more than bts.
I think PoS is good for doing what BTS is doing (ie. banking and exchanges related services, DNS...), whereas PoW is good for doing what BTC is doing (ie. stable universal ledger related services).

Therefore I think BTS will not remplace BTC, and I think sparkle will not remplace BTS.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: bytemaster on November 28, 2014, 02:49:17 pm
Quote
Public Good - a commodity or service that is provided without profit to all members of a society, either by the government or a private individual or organization.

I think your definition of Public Good is rather broad to have any meaning what so ever.  Gold is not a public good, it is owned by one person at a time.  To claim "the value of gold" is a public good would apply to all goods so as to make your definition meaningless.

When I say it is statist I do so because the "public good" argument is used to justify government control over every single "public good" industry.   So clearly they want to define it as broadly as possible.   They include everything from Roads, to Education, to Healthcare, to Money, to Police.

The Public Good argument is so broad that it consumes over 50% of the US economy as measured by Public Spending.   

So when you claim BTC is a Public Good and that mining makes good Public Goods when in reality BTC is a private currency and mining is a private enterprise it shows a huge logical inconsistency which needs to be resolved.   


Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: BldSwtTrs on November 28, 2014, 03:50:59 pm
Quote
Public Good - a commodity or service that is provided without profit to all members of a society, either by the government or a private individual or organization.

I think your definition of Public Good is rather broad to have any meaning what so ever.  Gold is not a public good, it is owned by one person at a time.  To claim "the value of gold" is a public good would apply to all goods so as to make your definition meaningless.
Fair enough, I should have explained better what I mean with gold: I were talking about gold as a ledger technology.

Basically I think gold is valuable because it's the most widely recognize universal ledger (the most reliable for now, but I think the ascent of Bitcoin will move that ranking), and therein, the better store of value. 

The units of gold are indeed rival. But the discovery of that ledger technology benefited every body, and created tremendous positive externalities.

With Bitcoin the same applies: bitcoins units are obviously rival, but Bitcoin, the protocol, is non-rival.
Quote
When I say it is statist I do so because the "public good" argument is used to justify government control over every single "public good" industry.   So clearly they want to define it as broadly as possible.   They include everything from Roads, to Education, to Healthcare, to Money, to Police.

The Public Good argument is so broad that it consumes over 50% of the US economy as measured by Public Spending.   

So when you claim BTC is a Public Good and that mining makes good Public Goods when in reality BTC is a private currency and mining is a private enterprise it shows a huge logical inconsistency which needs to be resolved.
I agree, the term public good is probably more confusing than helping. I'd better say it's a technology which create value by it's very existence. And what allows this technology to exist, and therefore creating the value associated with its own existence, should no be considered a waste.

The next question is: can one create the same value while consuming less resources by tweaking that technology? And my position is that by tweaking the technology you are modifying the kind of value which is created (ie. the two technologies don't served exactly the same human purposes).

The purpose of establishing a new universal ledger is better served by PoW (because of the inerty it creates). And the purpose of leveraging the possibilities open by the blockchain technology, other than the universal ledger function, are better served by PoS.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 05:44:24 pm
People have asked me to announce a snapshot date for PTS other than November 5th.    I cannot find a snapshot generator that use to be hosted at genesis.bitshares.org so can someone point me to the new PTS forum so that I can ask them to produce the snapshot for me?

I will do the snapshot on December 14th, the anniversary of the American Revolution:

Quote
The first military encounter of the American Revolution occurred, when on the report of news carried by Paul Revere that the British intended to station a garrison at Portsmouth, New Hampshire; Major John Sullivan led a band of militia to Fort William and Mary, broke into its arsenal, and carried off arms and ammunition, 1774

If I cannot get a snapshot produced by the PTS community then I will use Nov 5th PTS snapshot.
I will generate the BTS snapshot on December 14th.
AGS is what it is.

Help spread the word! 
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: toast on November 28, 2014, 05:45:31 pm
People have asked me to announce a snapshot date for PTS other than November 5th.    I cannot find a snapshot generator that use to be hosted at genesis.bitshares.org so can someone point me to the new PTS forum so that I can ask them to produce the snapshot for me?

I will do the snapshot on December 14th, the anniversary of the American Revolution:

Quote
The first military encounter of the American Revolution occurred, when on the report of news carried by Paul Revere that the British intended to station a garrison at Portsmouth, New Hampshire; Major John Sullivan led a band of militia to Fort William and Mary, broke into its arsenal, and carried off arms and ammunition, 1774

If I cannot get a snapshot produced by the PTS community then I will use Nov 5th PTS snapshot.
I will generate the BTS snapshot on December 14th.
AGS is what it is.

Help spread the word!

http://ptsags.quisquis.de/
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 05:50:50 pm
People have asked me to announce a snapshot date for PTS other than November 5th.    I cannot find a snapshot generator that use to be hosted at genesis.bitshares.org so can someone point me to the new PTS forum so that I can ask them to produce the snapshot for me?

I will do the snapshot on December 14th, the anniversary of the American Revolution:

Quote
The first military encounter of the American Revolution occurred, when on the report of news carried by Paul Revere that the British intended to station a garrison at Portsmouth, New Hampshire; Major John Sullivan led a band of militia to Fort William and Mary, broke into its arsenal, and carried off arms and ammunition, 1774

If I cannot get a snapshot produced by the PTS community then I will use Nov 5th PTS snapshot.
I will generate the BTS snapshot on December 14th.
AGS is what it is.

Help spread the word!

http://ptsags.quisquis.de/

Great! 
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 05:56:11 pm
Any prediction on PTS price movements?
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 06:00:37 pm
The problem is withdrawing them back to your PTS wallet, right now I think it's about a block a day!

Where is the new PTS being discussed?
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 06:05:15 pm
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=1.0

81655 is the present block count. It is MANY hours between blocks because very few people seem to be mining PTS at present.

I'm at 81660 now, not sure if that is current though.

I read somewhere that they setup a new forum to discuss an upgrade to PTS
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Stan on November 28, 2014, 06:07:29 pm
People have asked me to announce a snapshot date for PTS other than November 5th.    I cannot find a snapshot generator that use to be hosted at genesis.bitshares.org so can someone point me to the new PTS forum so that I can ask them to produce the snapshot for me?

I will do the snapshot on December 14th, the anniversary of the American Revolution:

Quote
The first military encounter of the American Revolution occurred, when on the report of news carried by Paul Revere that the British intended to station a garrison at Portsmouth, New Hampshire; Major John Sullivan led a band of militia to Fort William and Mary, broke into its arsenal, and carried off arms and ammunition, 1774

If I cannot get a snapshot produced by the PTS community then I will use Nov 5th PTS snapshot.
I will generate the BTS snapshot on December 14th.
AGS is what it is.

Help spread the word!

http://ptsags.quisquis.de/

Great!

Using the Nov 5th snapshot for something new like Sparkles has the following bad consequences:

Everybody who sold PTS to somebody else after the 5th gets your new shares
even though they sold their rights to them, and
everybody who bought PTS in good faith for rights to those shares is cheated.

PTS has no trading value if developers don't honor the current owners at the time a new genesis block is defined.

This is particularly bad right now, since we recently returned PTS to their donors.
If you use Nov 5th, Invictus gets Sparkle shares instead of all those loyal supporters you are seeking.

Think of the howls of protest when that gets out!

:)

Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: bytemaster on November 28, 2014, 06:18:17 pm
since we recently returned PTS to their donors.
If you use Nov 5th, Invictus gets Sparkle shares instead of all those loyal supporters you are seeking.

Think of the howls of protest when that gets out!

:)

Actually, you deserve the sparkles more than we do, so fair is fair

You guys invented Sparkle after all

Well it will help us significantly from an accounting perspective if we don't have all of those Sparks on our books.  Might start a fire you know.
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: chryspano on November 28, 2014, 06:36:13 pm

Using the Nov 5th snapshot for something new like Sparkles has the following bad consequences:

Everybody who sold PTS to somebody else after the 5th gets your new shares
even though they sold their rights to them, and
everybody who bought PTS in good faith for rights to those shares is cheated.

PTS has no trading value if developers don't honor the current owners at the time a new genesis block is defined.

This is particularly bad right now, since we recently returned PTS to their donors.
If you use Nov 5th, Invictus gets Sparkle shares instead of all those loyal supporters you are seeking.

Think of the howls of protest when that gets out!

:)

 +5% +5% +5%

Those that still hold  PTS should be rewarded not those that sold/dumped
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: CLains on November 28, 2014, 07:17:46 pm
The problem is withdrawing them back to your PTS wallet, right now I think it's about a block a day!

Where is the new PTS being discussed?

http://pts.cubeconnex.com/
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Riverhead on November 28, 2014, 08:50:09 pm



Thanks for giving the PTS back, nobody put a gun to your head for you to do that.  You could have just as easily dumped them on the open market, bought The Bitmobile and went on a marketing tour to promote your latest BitSparkle, and it all would have been perfectly legal.


Everyone won with the pts return. Some were saved millions.



Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 08:51:24 pm
FYI, real mining for Sparkle is live now on the test network.  Test blocks will be honored!   
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Riverhead on November 28, 2014, 08:52:04 pm
FYI, real mining for Sparkle is live now on the test network.  Test blocks will be honored!
Awesome! Congrats.

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Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: sparkles on November 28, 2014, 08:54:54 pm
FYI, real mining for Sparkle is live now on the test network.  Test blocks will be honored!
Awesome! Congrats.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

At block 101 and counting...
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: Stan on November 29, 2014, 12:31:41 am

The closer you group the sparkles, the cooler it looks:

(http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/hubble-picture-6.jpg)

Organized centralization looks cool, random decentralization is boring.

LOL - That particular group of sparkles is decentralizing at about 1500 km/sec.   :)
Title: Re: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle
Post by: unimercio on November 29, 2014, 12:39:32 pm
They honor the socl consensus .. so they deserve our support ..
They will get my support ..

+5%
.  +5% +5% Agreed, I will fully support all ventures that fully honor AGS/PTS.