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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2f/22/92/2f22929d21b4efd4a83ae7436ca6eefd.jpg)
There is nothing that says that a MPA price feed has to be attached to a real currency or commodity is there?
What would happen if we postulated a fictional currency with a desirable price feed behavior defined by well specified equation as a function of time instead of pegging it 1:1 to some market feed? Why not peg it to grow 1.05 to 1 annually and offset the reference currency's historic inflation rate or something?
Thought experiment:
Define an imaginary "Sumo" to have a value equal to the perhaps weighted Sum (USD, CNY, EUR) + 5% per year. Now its price feed relative to that basket is defined in advance for as far into the future as the reference currencies exist. Or perhaps the "Maxo" is defined as the price feed of the strongest SDR currency at any given time +5%.
We could create a "bitSumo" or "bitMaxo" that would behave like that fictitious "dreamcoin" currency and, viola, now we have a currency that will always outperform a specified basket or the best fiat currency by 5%.
Just dial the equation into Xeroc's bot to keep your favorite artificial currency collateral topped off to its completely predictable performance relative to the price feeds of it's poor, hapless, fiatic competitors.
Why track poorly behaving fiats and commodities when you can dream up you own ideal coin behavior?
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Let me have a look ,does it solve any problem?increase trading volume?who will use it?
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Why not make it? Because nobody would short it. :P
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Who would use a currency that functions like an inflation proof certificate of deposit guaranteed to appreciate against the best of the world currencies by +5%?
Um, all the money currently deposited in retirement accounts or passbook savings accounts earning near zero or negative interest.
Naturally, in the current doldrums where BTS is not reliably appreciating nothing much is happening.
(https://i.gyazo.com/279dc680082e055c7cec054b8d7c0e7f.png)
But suppose, as the stated thought experiment, that some whacko rocket scientist were to allocate a million dollars to generate liquidity for the, um, Whacko which is a MPA with a definition equation representing the ideal dreamcoin.
Would there be a market for the dreamcoin?
Would that release of a megabuck worth of the Whacko onto the market take enough BTS out of circulation to start a virtuous upward price spiral that becomes self-sustaining?
Would such growth justify shorting into that demand where the speculator gives up 5% of the annual appreciation such a coin might stimulate?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/47/12/49/4712498715b38c94f3d847eb9271d99d.jpg)
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Nice thought experiment, but I think the original model, were shorters paid interest to longs in bitUSD or bitEUR was much better. This should be reintroduced in my opinion... as an alternative at least to the current interest-free bitUSD... perhaps the bondmarket as well.
I understand the logic behind this... but people would not like to see such experiments and they might not understand it, as the whole project is already called an experiment...
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Nice thought experiment, but I think the original model, were shorters paid interest to longs in bitUSD or bitEUR was much better. This should be reintroduced in my opinion... as an alternative at least to the current interest-free bitUSD... perhaps the bondmarket as well.
I understand the logic behind this... but people would not like to see such experiments and they might not understand it, as the whole project is already called an experiment...
Certainly it would not be called an experiment by the time it was presented to the General Public.
At that point, it would all be boiled down to a menu of smart coins with various defined behaviors.
The average consumer would be presented with a simple list of coins they could buy:
bitUSD tracks the value of the US dollar.
bitGold tracks the spot price of gold.
bitSumo appreciates against a basket of currencies by 5%.
You buy these coins like you buy any CD and hold them as investments.
They each can be explained in about as much text as a product on Amazon.
(https://i.gyazo.com/3d77a610c8babe0b29ed20843916ecf3.png)
They could certainly be explained as a 5% CD. The only difference is the black swan protection against any single currency suddenly collapsing - a real probable scenario in the next few years.
I'm not sure there is any difference between what we are saying other than how it is explained. My proposal is simply implemented by publishing the price feed formula as a function of other price feeds.
How is what you are saying different and why would it be better?
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BitUSD and "Sumo" serve the same stable-coin market, but shorters would prefer to short the weaker asset, USD, which means more USD would exist. And we have only anemic quantity of USD in existence, about 112000 tokens (http://cryptofresh.com/a/USD), so I would expect Sumo to cannibalize it and have fewer tokens in existence.
In short (haha pun), shorters wouldn't create it, so it would be a non-starter. They would prefer to short a fiat peg instead, which is what we actually need to get liquidity juiced up.
Disclaimer: I could be wrong.
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Raise Smartcoin settle cost ,protect the shorter.Then more people will create it.
If OPEC choice Sumo,I choice too.
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just do it, we can talk later
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I love this idea.
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just do it, we can talk later
On a permission-less ledger like BitShares, we don't need to talk at all :D
There is one general issue I am having when people promise a +5%apr. Not that is sounds fishy and people are going to think its a pyramid scheme - that doesn't need to be the case after all.
The problems I am having result in the 'exponential' behavior of a +5% promise. The value (depending on how you define value) rises by 5% per year gives an equation of 1.05^time which is clearly linear and, as exponentials do, 'escalates quickly'.
There needs to be a very good reasons to think that
a) there is enough backing for that claim
b) the backing is used to buy BTS so that it grows > 5% per year. Otherwise shorters lose out.
Assuming there was a big company that does this and keeps these promises, then shorting would be a
no-brainer for everyone that has BTS, because "the other company is making it happend for you" and takes
care of the 5%+ increase in BTS value each year. They may very well be willing to do so because of the
advantages that come with BTS and bitDREAM:
* permission-less ledger
* ultra-fast
* scalable
* collateralized stable tokens
* global order books
* 24/7 trading
If some company that has the money to do this AND is trusted to keep the promises, then BTS will go through the roof (not an investment advise!)
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How is what you are saying different and why would it be better?
It's an interesting idea.... Ever since you posted those pictured from back in the day where in big bold writing on the Bitshares booth display it read '+5% ON EVERYTHING' it has been floating around in my head how far from a departure the network as a whole has gone from that, and in turn so has a lot of other things as far as the value proposition in Bitshares.
I know there were issues in previous iteration of this.. but I can't help feeling after all this time we should be able to have something better now.
Is it so bad that I would like my dreamcoin to be bitUSD CAD CNY EUR?
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BitUSD and "Sumo" serve the same stable-coin market, but shorters would prefer to short the weaker asset, USD, which means more USD would exist. And we have only anemic quantity of USD in existence, about 112000 tokens (http://cryptofresh.com/a/USD), so I would expect Sumo to cannibalize it and have fewer tokens in existence.
In short (haha pun), shorters wouldn't create it, so it would be a non-starter. They would prefer to short a fiat peg instead, which is what we actually need to get liquidity juiced up.
Disclaimer: I could be wrong.
In a vacuum, taken in isolation, I would agree with you.
But there are two sides to a market. Shorters would like it less, users would like it more.
So, if you are going into the hot dog business do you want to offer tasteless dogs that are 5% cheaper to make?
The theory I'm exploring is that there is a huge difference in demand between an unknown experimental asset that pays 0 and one that pays 5%. If shorters start seeing gains of >20% annually, I think they won't mind sharing some of it "making their hot dogs taste better."
It's all about heating up the air in the fireplace enough so that the first smoke goes up the chimney.
To mix a few metaphors.
:)
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just do it, we can talk later
On a permission-less ledger like BitShares, we don't need to talk at all :D
There is one general issue I am having when people promise a +5%apr. Not that is sounds fishy and people are going to think its a pyramid scheme - that doesn't need to be the case after all.
The problems I am having result in the 'exponential' behavior of a +5% promise. The value (depending on how you define value) rises by 5% per year gives an equation of 1.05^time which is clearly linear and, as exponentials do, 'escalates quickly'.
There needs to be a very good reasons to think that
a) there is enough backing for that claim
b) the backing is used to buy BTS so that it grows > 5% per year. Otherwise shorters lose out.
Assuming there was a big company that does this and keeps these promises, then shorting would be a
no-brainer for everyone that has BTS, because "the other company is making it happend for you" and takes
care of the 5%+ increase in BTS value each year. They may very well be willing to do so because of the
advantages that come with BTS and bitDREAM:
* permission-less ledger
* ultra-fast
* scalable
* collateralized stable tokens
* global order books
* 24/7 trading
If some company that has the money to do this AND is trusted to keep the promises, then BTS will go through the roof (not an investment advise!)
Good points.
Each coin would be the functional equivalent of a 5% CD, so not hard for consumers to understand - especially retired folks who were counting on being able to earn something like that in order to retire.
Is there ever any concern that a 5% CD doubles in value every 14 years?
Why isn't there more concern that the USD has fallen to 2% of its purchasing power 100 years ago?
One difference is that, if it was paying interest we'd have to calculate how long a coin had been held to pay the interest and it would be taxed as ordinary income.
If it just appreciates at a fixed rate, it doesn't matter where you get on and off the elevator, you get the same gain in altitude. And that is taxed as capital gains which is often a much lower rate in many countries.
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You can surely peg bitAsset to whatever formula you want. Important question is what is a point of your token? If you want to preserve its purchasing power why don't you peg it to something like US consumer price index? Imagine a token which can buy the same amount of basic goods 50 years from now as it can buy today, no matter what USD inflation is, 2% or 200%. Is not this what everybody wants?
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You can surely peg bitAsset to whatever formula you want. Important question is what is a point of your token? If you want to preserve its purchasing power why don't you peg it to something like US consumer price index? Imagine a token which can buy the same amount of basic goods 50 years from now as it can buy today, no matter what USD inflation is, 2% or 200%. Is not this what everybody wants?
If you can come up with a consice formula that achieves this reliably .. i am all yours and we can geg that doon asap .. but you still need people to go short ..
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You can surely peg bitAsset to whatever formula you want. Important question is what is a point of your token? If you want to preserve its purchasing power why don't you peg it to something like US consumer price index? Imagine a token which can buy the same amount of basic goods 50 years from now as it can buy today, no matter what USD inflation is, 2% or 200%. Is not this what everybody wants?
If you can come up with a consice formula that achieves this reliably .. i am all yours and we can geg that doon asap .. but you still need people to go short ..
Well, we don't need to invent the index. There a bunch of them invented by top level economists. For example, US CPI is pretty good one. It reflects a change in cost of living in the world largest economy, and US bureaucrats are very accurate with statistics. A token pegged to US CPI would be probably a pretty good store of value outside USA too. So, we know CPI:USD rate (published monthly), we know USD:BTS rate -> here we get our price feed. And yes, once bitCPI is created, somebody will have to take a risk to issue it.
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I'm not shorting that with a 10-foot pole. :)
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Nice thought experiment, but I think the original model, were shorters paid interest to longs in bitUSD or bitEUR was much better. This should be reintroduced in my opinion... as an alternative at least to the current interest-free bitUSD... perhaps the bondmarket as well.
I understand the logic behind this... but people would not like to see such experiments and they might not understand it, as the whole project is already called an experiment...
Certainly it would not be called an experiment by the time it was presented to the General Public.
At that point, it would all be boiled down to a menu of smart coins with various defined behaviors.
The average consumer would be presented with a simple list of coins they could buy:
bitUSD tracks the value of the US dollar.
bitGold tracks the spot price of gold.
bitSumo appreciates against a basket of currencies by 5%.
You buy these coins like you buy any CD and hold them as investments.
They each can be explained in about as much text as a product on Amazon.
They could certainly be explained as a 5% CD. The only difference is the black swan protection against any single currency suddenly collapsing - a real probable scenario in the next few years.
I'm not sure there is any difference between what we are saying other than how it is explained. My proposal is simply implemented by publishing the price feed formula as a function of other price feeds.
How is what you are saying different and why would it be better?
Perhaps if it is only a new custom price feed. which does not mess with any other thing, why not try it out... perhaps you are right... but for now I think shorters would not want to short it... But if you have a whale at hand... you can perhaps kickstart this vicious cycle. :)
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Nice thought experiment, but I think the original model, were shorters paid interest to longs in bitUSD or bitEUR was much better. This should be reintroduced in my opinion... as an alternative at least to the current interest-free bitUSD... perhaps the bondmarket as well.
I understand the logic behind this... but people would not like to see such experiments and they might not understand it, as the whole project is already called an experiment...
Certainly it would not be called an experiment by the time it was presented to the General Public.
At that point, it would all be boiled down to a menu of smart coins with various defined behaviors.
The average consumer would be presented with a simple list of coins they could buy:
bitUSD tracks the value of the US dollar.
bitGold tracks the spot price of gold.
bitSumo appreciates against a basket of currencies by 5%.
You buy these coins like you buy any CD and hold them as investments.
They each can be explained in about as much text as a product on Amazon.
They could certainly be explained as a 5% CD. The only difference is the black swan protection against any single currency suddenly collapsing - a real probable scenario in the next few years.
I'm not sure there is any difference between what we are saying other than how it is explained. My proposal is simply implemented by publishing the price feed formula as a function of other price feeds.
How is what you are saying different and why would it be better?
Perhaps if it is only a new custom price feed. which does not mess with any other thing, why not try it out... perhaps you are right... but for now I think shorters would not want to short it... But if you have a whale at hand... you can perhaps kickstart this vicious cycle. :)
Agreed. See my earlier comments about the "bitBasket". Name it whatever you want, but moving forward this is the way to go. All the fiats on their own are on their way out. Peg baskets, indexes and tangibles into the mix and you've got one hell of an unstoppable Smartcoin, solid.
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The ideal formula would yield an asset that retains constant purchasing power against an honest CPI.
But we don't need to incur the risks of offering total "idealness" in a global economy where all major currencies are chronically inflating and can even be collapsed on purpose -- causing a hyperinflationary spike in any CPI referencing them. All we need to do is be +5% better than the best and we've got something attractive that a reliably appreciating BTS could provide to humanity.
Given a stable demand for a coin of this type, would take a stable stream of BTS off the table, giving the upward draft in BTS price needed to become self-sustaining.
If the right bot feedback mechanisms are developed to keep this from overheating or flaming out, it might be an amazing opportunity for a whale powered asset that could grow to compete with the largest global currencies.
Just need to find the right formula and a whale willing to try it.
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The ideal formula would yield an asset that retains constant purchasing power against an honest CPI.
But we don't need to incur the risks of offering total "idealness" in a global economy where all major currencies are chronically inflating and can even be collapsed on purpose -- causing a hyperinflationary spike in any CPI referencing them. All we need to do is be +5% better than the best and we've got something attractive that a reliably appreciating BTS could provide to humanity.
Given a stable demand for a coin of this type, would take a stable stream of BTS off the table, giving the upward draft in BTS price needed to become self-sustaining.
If the right bot feedback mechanisms are developed to keep this from overheating or flaming out, it might be an amazing opportunity for a whale powered asset that could grow to compete with the largest global currencies.
Just need to find the right formula and a whale willing to try it.
(http://i.imgur.com/s77JdLE.gif)
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The ideal formula would yield an asset that retains constant purchasing power against an honest CPI.
Yes!
But we don't need to incur the risks of offering total "idealness" in a global economy where all major currencies are chronically inflating and can even be collapsed on purpose -- causing a hyperinflationary spike in any CPI referencing them. All we need to do is be +5% better than the best and we've got something attractive that a reliably appreciating BTS could provide to humanity.
Where did you get this number, +5%? What if inflation on all fiat from your basket will happen to be +8.79% during next decade? Than your token will lose purchasing power, although slower than fiat in your basket, but pity anyway :(
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The ideal formula would yield an asset that retains constant purchasing power against an honest CPI.
Yes!
But we don't need to incur the risks of offering total "idealness" in a global economy where all major currencies are chronically inflating and can even be collapsed on purpose -- causing a hyperinflationary spike in any CPI referencing them. All we need to do is be +5% better than the best and we've got something attractive that a reliably appreciating BTS could provide to humanity.
Where did you get this number, +5%? What if inflation on all fiat from your basket will happen to be +8.79% during next decade? Than your token will lose purchasing power, although slower than fiat in your basket, but pity anyway :(
(https://i.gyazo.com/593d4a4bf847ae09d06fe918894cd1ba.png)
To be a successful currency, you don't need to outrun inflation. You just need to outrun the competition.
One of these could be my reason for picking 5%:
I picked +5% because of its unique display characteristics in this forum - a hold-over from a distant pre-historic time which could live again.
When I got my first passbook savings account back in the 1960s that's what kind of interest was "normal" in a passbook savings account.
5% is enough better than what my mother can earn on her retirement accounts today to maybe get her attention (if she wasn't invested in BitShares instead).
5% is low enough that a steady rise in BTS of, say 10% annually, would start to be attractive to a hypothetical benevolent whale who might want to deploy a new currency with a hypothetical billion dollar annual revenue stream from some asset she owns. That stream could automagically issue the Dreamcoin which I postulate would be snapped up by The Greatest Generation and The Baby Boomers if they could earn 5% backed by real BTS collateral.
All of the above.
None of the above.
As outlined in my original Whale Powered Assets (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22253.msg290046.html#msg290046) article, I'm wondering if I could convince all the candidate benevolent whales out there that this would be a great thing to do with said hypothetical revenue stream because they could double their rate of return on that revenue stream by feeding it through the smartcoin issuing process thereby locking it up as leveraged collateral that is appreciating due to the steady consumption of available supply of BitShares. And the older the smartcoins issued, the greater gain they would experience - which is the real incentive for said whale. Excess collateral from older coins could be harvested and fed back into the generation stream.
Viola! A fully back currency paying 5% is born. Surely there are marketeers who could sell something dirt simple like that. No other speculators need participate except the whale (although some might start participating once they see the plan working.)
Your actual mileage may vary, but I'm looking for the right parameters and any other insights from this community's thinkers. What breaks eventually? When we run out of great-grandmas?
One problem might be that the whale would eventually wind up owning >51% of the supply, turning BTS into a privately controlled network. The question is, would anybody care by that time?
(https://i.gyazo.com/1696bf286e33689c44a1fec8a55bfda9.png)
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Ok, go ahead, make your +5% asset. I support this. Let's see where it goes!
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Ok, go ahead, make your +5% asset. I support this. Let's see where it goes!
Yep, and if we all start a Meetup group in our local cities (http://www.meetup.com/bitshares-munich/), finding a whale will come much much MUCH sooner than later. It's surprising the number of whales that show up to our different Meetups. It's just a matter of time. If we all pitch in, the probability becomes much higher of finding them.
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Given a stable demand for a coin of this type, would take a stable stream of BTS off the table, giving the upward draft in BTS price needed to become self-sustaining.
spot on!
With BTS becoming profitable and yielding a 5% on it's own .. this could be a safe bet for shorters!
All we need to do is get there!
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How much would a benevolent whale need to invest to make this happen? Does anyone have an idea?
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How much would a benevolent whale need to invest to make this happen? Does anyone have an idea?
With the current low volume, it wouldn't need a lot to move the price up and maintain it.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
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Your actual mileage may vary, but I'm looking for the right parameters and any other insights from this community's thinkers. What breaks eventually? When we run out of great-grandmas?
One problem might be that the whale would eventually wind up owning >51% of the supply, turning BTS into a privately controlled network. The question is, would anybody care by that time?
I suppose that to keep the system going indefinitely a sufficiently benevolent whale might agree to a hard fork that created a way to make shares permanently non-voting. Once she reached some %ownership she could continue to buy up non-voting BTS for the economic advantages without damaging the essential decentralized control characteristics...
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Is there something about making it a basket that would make it more attractive to shorters/whales to create?
(Specific currencies that offered yield would be infinitely more popular than any sort of combo product imo.)
Other - BTS itself could also play the whale of sorts. If BTS was diluted at X% a year for SmartCoin yield. The yield would increase as BTS's value increased thereby incentivizing more and more SmartCoin demand. The yield could also dynamically adjust so that it would predominantly incentivize shorting in bear markets & vice versa based on trading above/below peg. (Yield harvesting in both scenarios would be positive as it removes BTS from CEX's, incentivizes shareholders to become familiar with the DEX & raises the SmartCoin CAP to potentially a market leader position which among other things would also make it the most lucrative for third parties to offer SmartCoin related products and services in and therefore most likely to bootstrap.)
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I would think that in an environment where a whale was pouring capital into the system at an even modestly sustained rate there would be a WHOLE lot of piggybacking going on with other speculators riding the rising tide to introduce a Cambrean Explosion of products that diverse consumers would snap up.
That might get things in motion to where some sort of internal mechanism like you suggest could take over. Essentially like a glider reaching an altitude where it doesn't need a whale tow plane any more. From there on out an autopilot bot might ride the air currents indefinitely.
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take me in whatever way you guys choose regards to improve smartcoins, we have the system we need to make it happen.
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again, just set it up and make an ANN what you need / goals. we'll see
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I would think that in an environment where a whale was pouring capital into the system at an even modestly sustained rate there would be a WHOLE lot of piggybacking going on with other speculators riding the rising tide to introduce a Cambrean Explosion of products that diverse consumers would snap up.
That might get things in motion to where some sort of internal mechanism like you suggest could take over. Essentially like a glider reaching an altitude where it doesn't need a whale tow plane any more. From there on out an autopilot bot might ride the air currents indefinitely.
The bunker has a glider school right next to it.. I see them fly over head all the time and land right next to the bunker on the runway.. I am waiting for the day I find one crashed into the bunker.. hasn't happened yet.. my camera is on standby though.. regardless.. I never seen a glider go 'indefinitely' thats for sure... but it can go for a rather long time.. long enough to bootstrap other things perhaps.
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what I cannot stand is that bitshares is ready to be widely used in crypto space, the product is out there........we are going to create some new tech to delay our task to be used or we a going concentrate why we didnt went fullpower into altscene adoption...... its up to us to decide.
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I think there is almost a 100% chance that if Stan pitches this idea to enough whales, that eventually one will see this genious plan and wants to kick it off with his own money...
But it would be better to have the asset and feeds set up already, so that the whale could act directly and not having to wait a few weeks until this has been set up.
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So let me get this straight:
-We create "Sumo" that has 1.05 the feed price of a basket of currencies
-Obviously there will be demand for this asset
-We need people to short it into existence, but the only reason to do that is to think that BTS will rise by greater than 5% per year vs the basket of currencies
-Since there is no reason to think bts will rise more than 10% each year since BTS isn't profitable and even BM has said increased network activity won't drive BTS market cap higher, no one will short it.
-We hope that a whale comes in and shorts a bunch of it? Why would they do that? Aside from the costs to enter the BTS ecosystem, they will be giving up 5% right off the bat.
Are we just hoping that speculators will see a whale investing in something and follow them? Then we hope that enough people are coming into the system that the demand for BTS rises and outpaces the 5% premium on "sumo". I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
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I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
That's what I've been saying. I ask: would the biggest proponents of this idea be willing to short it? Why would your short it instead of shorting BitUSD?
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I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
That's what I've been saying. I ask: would the biggest proponents of this idea be willing to short it? Why would your short it instead of shorting BitUSD?
Because, spicy +5% hot dogs sell better than bland 0% hot dogs.
And once you have demand, you can make and sell more, which theoretically means that the appreciation of BTS would more than make up for the extra 5% it costs to make them.
...on the other hand, the effects could be limited to just this arm of the galaxy.
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So let me get this straight:
-We create "Sumo" that has 1.05 the feed price of a basket of currencies
-Obviously there will be demand for this asset
-We need people to short it into existence, but the only reason to do that is to think that BTS will rise by greater than 5% per year vs the basket of currencies
-Since there is no reason to think bts will rise more than 10% each year since BTS isn't profitable and even BM has said increased network activity won't drive BTS market cap higher, no one will short it.
-We hope that a whale comes in and shorts a bunch of it? Why would they do that? Aside from the costs to enter the BTS ecosystem, they will be giving up 5% right off the bat.
Are we just hoping that speculators will see a whale investing in something and follow them? Then we hope that enough people are coming into the system that the demand for BTS rises and outpaces the 5% premium on "sumo". I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
The theory is that if you start selling lots of dream coins you will need to buy lots of BTS to make them. That will put buying pressure on the market which will cause the price to rise more than 5%. Since you are leveraged 2x even a 5% gain would double your profits. And the more coins you make the more the collateral in the earlier coins you made will be worth.
Thus the price of BTS becomes a more or less direct function of the demand for Dreamcoins.
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-We need people to short it into existence, but the only reason to do that is to think that BTS will rise by greater than 5% per year vs the basket of currencies
-Since there is no reason to think bts will rise more than 10% each year since BTS isn't profitable and even BM has said increased network activity won't drive BTS market cap higher, no one will short it.
You are really a permasceptic... :)
We all know that a 5% YoY appreciatian of a crypto is really a huge goal to set, but it is possible... especially if the entire cryptomarket increases to a 50 Billion mark in the next 3 years... ;)
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I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
For same reason they short bitUSD, bitCNY etc: to gamble on BTS volatility.
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I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
For same reason they short bitUSD, bitCNY etc: to gamble on BTS volatility.
But like chronos said, why wouldn't they just continue to short the weaker fiat currencies instead of a "sumo" or "maxo" that is constantly appreciating?
Only reason I could think why they would short would be because there would be ample amount of "sumo" or "maxo" to cover with, but even then it seems like the coins would be in such high demand that no one would be willing to sell them.
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I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
For same reason they short bitUSD, bitCNY etc: to gamble on BTS volatility.
But like chronos said, why wouldn't they just continue to short the weaker fiat currencies instead of a "sumo" or "maxo" that is constantly appreciating?
Only reason I could think why they would short would be because there would be ample amount of "sumo" or "maxo" to cover with, but even then it seems like the coins would be in such high demand that no one would be willing to sell them.
That's a nice problem to have.
"Go ahead and keep your Dreamos, we'll make more."
(http://healthyinfluence.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Jay-and-Doritos.jpg)
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I'm sure there will be demand for smartcoins that track people's native currencies.
But the Sumo/Maxo are for people who want to flee to safety and have a way to save and earn.
That's a whole different market.
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This idea could bring new eyeballs to Bitshares, but some of the "benevolent whale" reasoning in this thread seems illogical to me.
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I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
For same reason they short bitUSD, bitCNY etc: to gamble on BTS volatility.
But like chronos said, why wouldn't they just continue to short the weaker fiat currencies instead of a "sumo" or "maxo" that is constantly appreciating?
They would be appreciating at +5% per year. 5% per year is roughly 0.01% per day. Check charts for BTS volatility. Plenty of room to make profit.
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People here think of shorting as of disaster. It is not. It may be an opportunity, depending on market state. Just don't short below your call price and keep your collateral low. You are pretty safe this way. :)
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Reminder: A short is a bet that a given asset will fall in value. Would YOU like to short a Sumo? :P
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why not setup that thing, post what you need and let people decide if it's worth to jump in?
we need to stop talking and start doing - it's been a very bad habit in bitshares
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why not setup that thing, post what you need and let people decide if it's worth to jump in?
we need to stop talking and start doing - it's been a very bad habit in bitshares
This asset REQUIRES marketing! You can't just create a new asset publish price feeds and hope for people to come across this by accident.
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why not setup that thing, post what you need and let people decide if it's worth to jump in?
we need to stop talking and start doing - it's been a very bad habit in bitshares
This asset REQUIRES marketing! You can't just create a new asset publish price feeds and hope for people to come across this by accident.
there's nothing to market until it's setup :)
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there's nothing to market until it's setup :)
erm .. ethereum manages to create quite some buzz about their infinite scalability they want to reach in less than 12 months
they also managed to create a lot of attention just because of their whitepaper
Also,
"buy the rumor, sell the news" just wouldn't exist if people made things first and only then market it ..
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there's nothing to market until it's setup :)
erm .. ethereum manages to create quite some buzz about their infinite scalability they want to reach in less than 12 months
they also managed to create a lot of attention just because of their whitepaper
Also,
"buy the rumor, sell the news" just wouldn't exist if people made things first and only then market it ..
sure, but is it the right thing to do?
I'm happy to help if you guys want to run a "ICO" kind of thing - I think stan should write the sales pitch though.
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Reminder: A short is a bet that a given asset will fall in value. Would YOU like to short a Sumo? :P
Of course, because it will periodically fall in price against BTS by a good amount.
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Would it worth it to shorters to short sumo, then sell it for enough of an upcharge to offset shorting losses?
People wanting sumo would have to pay a ridiculous price, but then they could hodl long enough to offset that.
The question is how much more than base currency value would people be willing to pay for sumo?
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Oh yeah? Short this!
(https://i.gyazo.com/f866bcc77538001377a38d429c116e37.png)
Of course, the underlying assumption is that the demand for such a coin as the, um, Sumo would draw so much BTS out of circulation that its percentage gain would zoom far beyond the Sumo.
At first glance it doesn't look like you would want to short something like this, but remember, a whale would be shorting the Sumo against a zooming BTS, not the CPI or anything else.
This plot is just pegging the Sumo above the dollar. If it were pegged to a basket, presumably the wiggles would be smoothed out and pegging to the strongest currency at any point in time would maybe eliminate all dips.
But, we just need something simple to explain that is better than what most people have, so I'm thinking sticking with the above definition is a good compromise.
Your actual mileage may vary.
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plot twist: Use bitUSD as backing asset for bitSUMON :)
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When this is going to happen? I'll short this.
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All we need is someone who is smaaaarter than the average whale...
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cartoons/images/9/93/Yogi_Bear.png/revision/latest?cb=20090101230422)
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So let me get this straight:
-We create "Sumo" that has 1.05 the feed price of a basket of currencies
-Obviously there will be demand for this asset
-We need people to short it into existence, but the only reason to do that is to think that BTS will rise by greater than 5% per year vs the basket of currencies
-Since there is no reason to think bts will rise more than 10% each year since BTS isn't profitable and even BM has said increased network activity won't drive BTS market cap higher, no one will short it.
-We hope that a whale comes in and shorts a bunch of it? Why would they do that? Aside from the costs to enter the BTS ecosystem, they will be giving up 5% right off the bat.
Are we just hoping that speculators will see a whale investing in something and follow them? Then we hope that enough people are coming into the system that the demand for BTS rises and outpaces the 5% premium on "sumo". I have to be missing something because I can't see why anyone would ever short this product...
The theory is that if you start selling lots of dream coins you will need to buy lots of BTS to make them. That will put buying pressure on the market which will cause the price to rise more than 5%. Since you are leveraged 2x even a 5% gain would double your profits. And the more coins you make the more the collateral in the earlier coins you made will be worth.
Thus the price of BTS becomes a more or less direct function of the demand for Dreamcoins.
This is a common but false belief. The best that we can say is that while there is latent demand for leverage from BTS bulls, an increase in Smartcoin supply helps to facilitate their bids by providing the leverage. But any increase in price depends on how many sellers the new higher price motivates in the market. In turn this depends on the perceived future return prospects envisioned by remaining marginal buyers and sellers of BTS, not any price at which historic transactions have already taken place. The BTS market will shift more with sentiment, not push from Smartcoin demand.
So no rational short would support this with other alternatives available to them. Of course, irrational shorts might!
This is a bit like saying that if only all producers in the economy gave great 2 for 1 deals to consumers, the economy would be buzzing with the increased consumer spend, and stock prices would go through the roof, more than compensating business owners for their income losses. Not really a viable model.
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True, but the hypothetical whale is committed to investing a steady stream of revenue from some other source, that could tend to favorably bias that sentiment.
Presumably a whale with this business model would also be advertising the product aggressively.
One difficulty might be that the price of BTS zooms on speculation to the point where speculators take a time out from shorting until it drops back to the desired growth curve.
So this would need a clever bot to "regulate" the whole process to the Goldilocks "just right" rate of growth.
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This idea could bring new eyeballs to Bitshares, but some of the "benevolent whale" reasoning in this thread seems illogical to me.
It's not that illogical for a whale. Imagine a whale with $2.5 million.
He has purchased a 20% stake in BTS for circa $2 million. He has $500 000 in fiat.
He offers 5% p.a yield on 'BitSumo DreamCoin' & uses some of his stake to help short Dreamcoins into existence when there is demand.
His $500 000 in fiat will cover 5% yield on up to $10 million worth of DreamCoin in year 1 regardless of BTS price.
But $10 million of BitSumo couldn't be created unless there was MANY millions of dollars worth of new demand for BTS which would drive the price of BTS and it's value MUCH higher.
The result is that his leveraged 20% stake in BTS (Currently worth $2 million) should dramatically increase in value.
I would like to see the BTS blockchain itself support yield during the SmartCoin growth stage but this probably works too. (I would also consider reducing forced settlement and have some mechanism that allocates some of the yield to shorts when SmartCoin or Dreamcoin demand in this case, is above the peg.)
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what if you only make bitsumo tradeable for LTM members? shouldn't this drive the price as well?
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This idea could bring new eyeballs to Bitshares, but some of the "benevolent whale" reasoning in this thread seems illogical to me.
It's not that illogical for a whale. Imagine a whale with $2.5 million.
He has purchased a 20% stake in BTS for circa $2 million. He has $500 000 in fiat.
He offers 5% p.a yield on 'BitSumo DreamCoin' & uses some of his stake to help short Dreamcoins into existence when there is demand.
His $500 000 in fiat will cover 5% yield on up to $10 million worth of DreamCoin in year 1 regardless of BTS price.
But $10 million of BitSumo couldn't be created unless there was MANY millions of dollars worth of new demand for BTS which would drive the price of BTS and it's value MUCH higher.
The result is that his leveraged 20% stake in BTS (Currently worth $2 million) should dramatically increase in value.
I would like to see the BTS blockchain itself support yield during the SmartCoin growth stage but this probably works too. (I would also consider reducing forced settlement and have some mechanism that allocates some of the yield to shorts when SmartCoin or Dreamcoin demand in this case, is above the peg.)
Thanks, I was hoping someone would do an analysis like this.
A more detailed analysis would examine typical order books and try to model what the incremental change in BTS price would be as they are taken off the order book to make Sumos.
Naturally, other market effects would be superimposed on the steady state effect, but those wiggles get damped out by the whale only buying when the price is below the nominal ramp.
Now, I wonder how to calculate what the nominal ramp should be.
Are there diminishing returns for each new Sumo coined?
If the combined value of all BTS accumulated tends to reliably grow significantly beyond the combined price paid for them you would think that is a good place for a whale to put some of her existing revenues. Especially if the whale has additional plans for what could be done building an ecosystem on such a currency.
The extent to which the whale could later exit would be the extent to which other speculators join her on the treadmill.
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Lots more discussion on this topic may be found on Steemit, including this "ponzi scheme" concern which quickly went down in flames (all modesty aside).
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@Stan/the-power-of-5#@cyrano.witness/re-stan-the-power-of-5-20160623t210949238z
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These shity links on steem never work.
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Lots more discussion on this topic may be found on Steemit, including this "ponzi scheme" concern which quickly went down in flames (all modesty aside).
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@Stan/the-power-of-5#@cyrano.witness/re-stan-the-power-of-5-20160623t210949238z
I really liked your arguments stan, that is the beatiful of smartcoins.
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These shity links on steem never work.
Mark > Right click > open
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Lots more discussion on this topic may be found on Steemit, including this "ponzi scheme" concern which quickly went down in flames (all modesty aside).
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@Stan/the-power-of-5#@cyrano.witness/re-stan-the-power-of-5-20160623t210949238z
Link doesn't work (duh)
http://goo.gl/w4iHdo
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These shity links on steem never work.
Mark > Right click > copy paste > convert to lower case > open
FTFY
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Lots more discussion on this topic may be found on Steemit, including this "ponzi scheme" concern which quickly went down in flames (all modesty aside).
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@Stan/the-power-of-5#@cyrano.witness/re-stan-the-power-of-5-20160623t210949238z
Huh? What flames? Your own response is the only one.
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Lots more discussion on this topic may be found on Steemit, including this "ponzi scheme" concern which quickly went down in flames (all modesty aside).
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@Stan/the-power-of-5#@cyrano.witness/re-stan-the-power-of-5-20160623t210949238z
Huh? What flames? Your own response is the only one.
True, I was the one politely wielding the flamethrower... :)
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/Adks9.jpg]http://i.stack.imgur.com/Adks9.jpg)
What did you think of the answer to the ponzi accusations?
That's what I was looking for feedback on here.
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Well peter made a valid point.
I think the questions are:
* is this just sone kind of corporate money used mainly for internal case but is open to the public
* who actually pays the 5%? Is it new users or maybe fractions of the profits made by the corporation, seen as a necessary cost for their very own currency
* would people outside the corporation be interested to use this it all?
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Well peter made a valid point.
I think the questions are:
* is this just sone kind of corporate money used mainly for internal case but is open to the public
* who actually pays the 5%? Is it new users or maybe fractions of the profits made by the corporation, seen as a necessary cost for their very own currency
* would people outside the corporation be interested to use this it all?
There is no corporation. This will work like a casino with 5% house edge, except there is no house. Shorters will gamble on day-to-day volatility and in long term lose 5% per year. These 5% will be payed to holders.
It is also possible that BTS price will grow in long term. In this case shorters will share 5% of their yearly profit with holders.
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PRECISELY!
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Looks like the good old forum is still the better place for a discussion... :-)
There is no corporation. This will work like a casino with 5% house edge, except there is no house. Shorters will gamble on day-to-day volatility and in long term lose 5% per year. These 5% will be payed to holders.
It is also possible that BTS price will grow in long term. In this case shorters will share 5% of their yearly profit with holders.
Thanks. That actually makes some sense.
I still think that it is (long-term) inevitable that the system will end up in a black swan. You promise exponential payouts, and nothing can keep up with that, long-term.
I also think that it's a dangerous game to play, because it contains a positive feedback loop which will increase BTS volatility. Higher BTS volatility increases the risk for *all* smartcoins.
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I still think that it is (long-term) inevitable that the system will end up in a black swan. You promise exponential payouts, and nothing can keep up with that, long-term.
I share these concerns.
I also think that it's a dangerous game to play, because it contains a positive feedback loop which will increase BTS volatility. Higher BTS volatility increases the risk for *all* smartcoins.
On a different thought, the other bitassets (once liquid) will probably help to smoothen out volatility. The pricefeeds just need to have all liquid markets added (with volume) .. i am not yet fully convinced about this positive feedback loop to be catastrophical.
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In the end, it is exactly what BitShares was build for.
Shares are purchased because they can be used to build something that there is demand for.
When there are a trillion Sumos in circulation what do you suppose the BitShares ecosystem will be worth?
What will it's prospects be to double again?
What will the marketing budget be at that time?
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There is no corporation. This will work like a casino with 5% house edge, except there is no house. Shorters will gamble on day-to-day volatility and in long term lose 5% per year. These 5% will be payed to holders.
It is also possible that BTS price will grow in long term. In this case shorters will share 5% of their yearly profit with holders.
Thanks. That actually makes some sense.
I still think that it is (long-term) inevitable that the system will end up in a black swan. You promise exponential payouts, and nothing can keep up with that, long-term.
At some point (possibly many years in the future) SmartCoin or DreamCoin products will mature and growth may stagnate.
At that point a SmartCoin interest payment will cost more BTS than the BTS (for SmartCoin) demand it incentivizes, (Either for BTS or a whale) so at that point I think the payment would have to be curtailed and ultimately ended.
While I don't know about a combo DreamCoin, I don't think this will cause a black swan if it's applied to SmartCoins like BitUSD because customers should be quite sticky...
Customers are fairly sticky & first year bonuses are very successful at creating long term account holders for a very low cost. In the UK it is/was controversial but very successful...
The Fair Banking Foundation reckons that 3.78 million savers over the past five years had money in accounts paying attractive short-term bonuses, but who failed to move their cash once the deal ended.
Hopefully we could keep ours going for many years during the growth phase and once it's fully tapered traditional banks will be well into negative territory and zero yield would actually be attractive especially once SmartCoins had greater utility and combined with all their other great features as well.
Once the system has been bootstrapped though, BTS growth/value will hopefully come from a range of products servicing the SmartCoin market & possibly trading fees etc.
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So... will this product be set up? I think the idea is brilliant and it includes an interest component paid by the shorter... which I think is missing right now...
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So... will this product be set up? I think the idea is brilliant and it includes an interest component paid by the shorter... which I think is missing right now...
Hopefully, if we find a whale who wants to try this.
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If I were a whale, a big one, I would be making some math ritht now to have an approximation on the feasibility of this hypothesis.
I'm far from a whale but we know where we can find some. There is investment forums, website, ... These Whale are just looking how to grow a portion of their capital.
Wouldn't it be a smart move to wright a piece of article on that idea and publish everywhere where ppl have deep pockets ?
They could contact Stan to get in more details if needed.
I'm a poker player, all my decisions are purely statistics.
Let's suppose that writing and publishing this paper has a 1% chance to find a whale who is willing to try this and the MC reach 1/2M with the added value, smartcoins liquidity increase, awarness, communication and some hype.
We would have 1% chance to increase 500x our current investment in BitShares. So in the long run, on average, (repeting this process forever, not feasable obviously) that paper would increase our MC by 5 times.
Let's consider that 20 hours are needed to write it and publish it everywhere we can (with the community help).
Well, anyone with at least 100$ in BTS in its account would gain 400$, so 20$/hour by writing and publishing it. Not bad but maybe not enough to ignite the fire of your motivation ...
Maybe 50$/h if you have 250$ in bts, or 200$/h if you have 1k$ in bts ... or 1000$/h for the baby whales ?
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
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If I were a whale, a big one, I would be making some math ritht now to have an approximation on the feasibility of this hypothesis.
I'm far from a whale but we know where we can find some. There is investment forums, website, ... These Whale are just looking how to grow a portion of their capital.
Wouldn't it be a smart move to wright a piece of article on that idea and publish everywhere where ppl have deep pockets ?
They could contact Stan to get in more details if needed.
I'm a poker player, all my decisions are purely statistics.
Let's suppose that writing and publishing this paper has a 1% chance to find a whale who is willing to try this and the MC reach 1/2M with the added value, smartcoins liquidity increase, awarness, communication and some hype.
We would have 1% chance to increase 500x our current investment in BitShares. So in the long run, on average, (repeting this process forever, not feasable obviously) that paper would increase our MC by 5 times.
Let's consider that 20 hours are needed to write it and publish it everywhere we can (with the community help).
Well, anyone with at least 100$ in BTS in its account would gain 400$, so 20$/hour by writing and publishing it. Not bad but maybe not enough to ignite the fire of your motivation ...
Maybe 50$/h if you have 250$ in bts, or 200$/h if you have 1k$ in bts ... or 1000$/h for the baby whales ?
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
great idea, just do it :)
would be much easier if there was something to show, or tell them where to throw money at. too bad the system is not in place...
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So... will this product be set up? I think the idea is brilliant and it includes an interest component paid by the shorter... which I think is missing right now...
Hopefully, if we find a whale who wants to try this.
Why not first establish the asset and its feeds and advertise it later?
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It appears that https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitblog/introduction-to-steem-liquidity-rewards
is working...good volume for steem congratulations :D
My opinion, the big market maker of steem is going to pay for this "incentive", because steem is printing more money to pay for this....
my suggestion for bitshares is a simple deal using worker proposal to hire a market maker for smartcoins n set with them parameters n targets, so we dont need code for this n will print some money the same way steem is doing, but in a simple way :) bitCNY is doing good but certainly we can see it at least by 10x in dex with we choose a reasonable market maker n make a good deal......if the guys needs some extra thing we can discuss to develop.... Im not in a hurry here...just sharing for the best.
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It appears that https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitblog/introduction-to-steem-liquidity-rewards
is working...good volume for steem congratulations :D
My opinion, the big market maker of steem is going to pay for this "incentive", because steem is printing more money to pay for this....
my suggestion for bitshares is a simple deal using worker proposal to hire a market maker for smartcoins n set with them parameters n targets, so we dont need code for this n will print some money the same way steem is doing, but in a simple way :) bitCNY is doing good but certainly we can see it at least by 10x in dex with we choose a reasonable market maker n make a good deal......if the guys needs some extra thing we can discuss to develop.... Im not in a hurry here...just sharing for the best.
I will vote for this if the Proposal is solid. We need liquidity asap.
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So they printing USD pegged SD which is covered by STEEM, which is printed by converting SD at internal market, which is subsidized by printing even more STEEM?
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So they printing USD pegged SD which is covered by STEEM, which is printed by converting SD at internal market, which is subsidized by printing even more STEEM?
Yea, I've been having trouble wrapping my head around that myself. Where does the value come from? If the answer is STEEM itself...I find it difficult to imagine it being sustainable long-term.
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in my opinion as long as you see orderbook full n growing n trading its sustainable.......
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I don't know if BTWTY can be qualified as a dreamcoin but so far its growth has been quite impressive.
Charts : www.bittwenty.com (http://www.bittwenty.com)
It has tiple its price in 18 months ... so ... now that we have something cool to sell out to the world, we just need THE whale to buy BTS, borrow and sell BTWTY, move up the BTS market faster than the BTWTY grows and everybody get its reward ! The whale have its ROI and long terme investors in crypto have a fast growing crypto index fund.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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Another topic ... I'll change soon the BTWTY current MSSR (SQP or maximum short squeeze ratio) percentage (110%).
We have actually on BTWTY:BTS a margin call order sitting way behind the first buyer. That could potentially be a problem if the market keeps trading with such a big premium and the price of BTWTY keeps moving up.
We need to increase this ratio to be sure margin call orders get filled quickly.
We are deciding at the moment which percentage would be the fittest for this market. I'm asking in this thread because it's full of the best speculators on BitShares markets ;)
Any opinions ?
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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All this margin call mechanism is VERY confusing. Not sure that increasing MSSR is a good idea.
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All this margin call mechanism is VERY confusing. Not sure that increasing MSSR is a good idea.
I agree, complicated, it is !
The problem is that if I let those margin call orders to far below the real price of the market, they won't be filled and when BTWTY will reach a higher price that could trigger a black swan.
That's why I can't let this 110% at the moment. The premium is really high and I need that margin call orders looks kind of interresting for shorters.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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All this margin call mechanism is VERY confusing. Not sure that increasing MSSR is a good idea.
I agree, complicated, it is !
The problem is that if I let those margin call orders to far below the real price of the market, they won't be filled and when BTWTY will reach a higher price that could trigger a black swan.
That's why I can't let this 110% at the moment. The premium is really high and I need that margin call orders looks kind of interresting for shorters.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
The problem is that when you increase MSSR, you increase a safe collateral ratio too, which is equal to MSSR*MCR. This may fix the margin call problem in short term, but it may have negative impact in long term, because collateral ratio is what determines leverage (lower CR = higher leverage). Higher leverage (lower CR) makes shorting more attractive. This issue needs some brainstorming before taking action.
You see, current high premium is a temporary thing, and the price will get closer to feed when liquidity spins up, but changing MSSR is sort of permanent fix, which may not do good in the future.
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All this margin call mechanism is VERY confusing. Not sure that increasing MSSR is a good idea.
I agree, complicated, it is !
The problem is that if I let those margin call orders to far below the real price of the market, they won't be filled and when BTWTY will reach a higher price that could trigger a black swan.
That's why I can't let this 110% at the moment. The premium is really high and I need that margin call orders looks kind of interresting for shorters.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
The problem is that when you increase MSSR, you increase a safe collateral ratio too, which is equal to MSSR*MCR. This may fix the margin call problem in short term, but it may have negative impact in long term, because collateral ratio is what determines leverage (lower CR = higher leverage). Higher leverage (lower CR) makes shorting more attractive. This issue needs some good brainstorming before taking any actions.
Indeed, it has to be carefully thought.
The best place to brainstorm is in this community but I didn't have any answer on the Telegram channel.
I'll consider opening a thread and hope some people can join and discuss it. >>> Edit : I've opened a thread : https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23654.0.html
The mechanism is really complexe and it would help my reflexion to have others opinions.
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I don't know if BTWTY can be qualified as a dreamcoin but so far its growth has been quite impressive.
Charts : www.bittwenty.com (http://www.bittwenty.com)
It has tiple its price in 18 months ... so ... now that we have something cool to sell out to the world, we just need THE whale to buy BTS, borrow and sell BTWTY, move up the BTS market faster than the BTWTY grows and everybody get its reward ! The whale have its ROI and long terme investors in crypto have a fast growing crypto index fund.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Very good. It definitely fits what I was thinking of in the OP.
(https://i.gyazo.com/2a9b5902e93f3877e2212b12c88a5e72.png)
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I don't know if BTWTY can be qualified as a dreamcoin but so far its growth has been quite impressive.
Charts : www.bittwenty.com (http://www.bittwenty.com)
It has tiple its price in 18 months ... so ... now that we have something cool to sell out to the world, we just need THE whale to buy BTS, borrow and sell BTWTY, move up the BTS market faster than the BTWTY grows and everybody get its reward ! The whale have its ROI and long terme investors in crypto have a fast growing crypto index fund.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
The only whale is BTS Reserve Pool.
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I don't know if BTWTY can be qualified as a dreamcoin but so far its growth has been quite impressive.
Charts : www.bittwenty.com (http://www.bittwenty.com)
It has tiple its price in 18 months ... so ... now that we have something cool to sell out to the world, we just need THE whale to buy BTS, borrow and sell BTWTY, move up the BTS market faster than the BTWTY grows and everybody get its reward ! The whale have its ROI and long terme investors in crypto have a fast growing crypto index fund.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Very good. It definitely fits what I was thinking of in the OP.
(https://i.gyazo.com/2a9b5902e93f3877e2212b12c88a5e72.png)
I've made the coin, you find the whale ... deal ? ;p
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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I don't know if BTWTY can be qualified as a dreamcoin but so far its growth has been quite impressive.
Charts : www.bittwenty.com (http://www.bittwenty.com)
It has tiple its price in 18 months ... so ... now that we have something cool to sell out to the world, we just need THE whale to buy BTS, borrow and sell BTWTY, move up the BTS market faster than the BTWTY grows and everybody get its reward ! The whale have its ROI and long terme investors in crypto have a fast growing crypto index fund.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Very good. It definitely fits what I was thinking of in the OP.
(https://i.gyazo.com/2a9b5902e93f3877e2212b12c88a5e72.png)
I've made the coin, you find the whale ... deal ? ;p
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Sounds reasonable... :)