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ok so I guess what were saying here is 1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).-bm
Quote from: toast on June 03, 2014, 04:13:08 pmQuote from: bluemeanie1 on June 03, 2014, 04:01:15 pmdonkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality. See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.-bmI've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.ok so I guess what were saying here is 1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).-bm
Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 03, 2014, 04:01:15 pmdonkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality. See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.-bmI've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality. See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.-bm
Again, we can completely stop using the word "DAC" if you like - it doesn't change the crux of our argument which is that *all* cryptequity are bearer shares and can be analyzed for profitability. Do you agree or disagree?
A DAC is a blockchain + cryptequity. If you don't think "DAC" is a good word to describe this, we can temporarily use "DASE", or "distributed autonomous system w/ equity." Surely you would agree that bitcoin is a DASE.So, given that bitcoin is a DASE, would you agree with my earlier statement?"Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are DASEs with embedded bearer shares which can be analyzed for profitability".
hey guys,I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here. I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here. Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?you need to define DACs before using this term. That's pretty basic.You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community. I find the community to be vibrant.-bm
Sure, a DAC is a blockchain + cryptequity. If you don't think "DAC" is a good word to describe this, we can temporarily use "DASE", or "distributed autonomous system w/ equity." Surely you would agree that bitcoin is a DASE.So, given that bitcoin is a DASE, would you agree with my earlier statement?"Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are DASEs with embedded bearer shares which can be analyzed for profitability".
despite your claims, NXT has working software.
I think you should define what a DAC is before you start applying this term to things. I think that's a reasonable request.-bm
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.are you against criticism?-bm
What you're saying is we shouldn't use the word "DAC" and should stick with "altcoin" or whatever. That's fine, it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin et al are blockchain-based systems with embedded bearer shares that can be analyzed for profitability.
My belief is that DAC means that the distributions/revenue are distributed via rules in the network. Therefore the word autonomous. All the business logic is implemented in a custom network that finds consensus over these rules.To me, NXT using virtual corporations instead of DACs makes a lot more sense, but I have no seen the full scope of the project.
Quote from: toast on June 02, 2014, 05:20:53 pmQuote I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage. Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?where is your definition stated?
Quote I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage. Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage. Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.
Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 01, 2014, 11:34:21 pmI personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations. Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear. The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically. I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC. Perhaps you can explain your statement?-bmBiggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.
I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations. Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear. The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically. I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC. Perhaps you can explain your statement?-bm
It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.
Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.
Quote from: delulo on May 20, 2014, 09:25:12 pmQuote from: gamey on May 20, 2014, 08:58:46 pmNXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable. It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network. If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute. It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..). Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money. Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter, as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency. It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1hi delulo,I'm heading off the Virtual Corp project. The technology was meant to mimic real world corporations.Not sure if Bitshares DACs have anything to offer over NXT Vcorps, but certainly I'm up to discuss.-bm
Quote from: gamey on May 20, 2014, 08:58:46 pmNXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable. It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network. If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute. It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..). Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money. Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter, as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency. It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1
NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable. It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network. If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute. It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..). Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money. Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter, as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency. It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 01, 2014, 05:14:06 pmQuote from: JoeyD on June 01, 2014, 05:05:14 pm@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.hi there,NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange. There's already quite a bit of activity on it. What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company. For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.-bmThanks for clearing that up, it sounds like I understood your concept correctly then. I'm curious with what you'll come up with. Are you still using the term DAC or have you stepped away from that? Because your are not really talking about a decentralized autonomous company/organisation in your model. Not trying to split hairs here, but it looks like you are going in a completely different direction from the DAC-concepts in bitshares and I'm trying to get my head around what you're trying to do and what benefits and pitfalls a blockchain-based-solution will bring to the table in your application. Biggest pitfall as I see it would be the legal status and validity in the world outside of the blockchain.
Quote from: JoeyD on June 01, 2014, 05:05:14 pm@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.hi there,NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange. There's already quite a bit of activity on it. What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company. For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.-bm
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.
Quote from: bluemeanie1 on June 01, 2014, 05:14:06 pmQuote from: JoeyD on June 01, 2014, 05:05:14 pm@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.hi there,NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange. There's already quite a bit of activity on it. What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company. For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.-bmI believe I've communicated with you in the past. What is your opinion on NXT at this price? Is it something to buy or is it over priced?
QuoteThere also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?Interesting (the censoring)... do you have a link?
There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.
Quote from: JoeyD on May 21, 2014, 10:52:48 amQuote from: xeroc on May 21, 2014, 09:34:12 amNxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit activeThanks for those links and I also finally found the reason for the cloak and dagger act with their source code on that forum. That is if Come-from-beyond is part of the core team, but judging from his posts he seems to fulfill a pivotal role. According to him the reason he is (or they are) keeping a tight lid on some of the code, most importantly transparent forging which sounds an awful lot like the delegate system from what I'm reading there, is because he fears cloning/forking and first wants the network effect and node-framework in place before making it public.Is NXT not getting any shit for that? Just look at what the Invictus team has to put up with and they aren't even locking their share in or keeping secrets like that. Hell they seem to be exceptionally public and outspoken even encouraging people to fork/compete so you'd expect NXT to receive a much bigger public lashing, very odd. There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well? nice summary. Plus: compare nxt's IPO with that of 3i. shorter period .. not announced end of donation... just over 70 stake holders .. just a little more the 20 btc (afair)I expect btsxt and btsx aswell as ptd2 too generate a much bigger buzz. I can remember alot of people not buying nxt because of the 70-people premine scam...Btw: most dangerous thing currently ongoing with pts to pts2 is my concerns others might call the 15% marketing 'share' a premine (which it basically is)
Quote from: xeroc on May 21, 2014, 09:34:12 amNxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit activeThanks for those links and I also finally found the reason for the cloak and dagger act with their source code on that forum. That is if Come-from-beyond is part of the core team, but judging from his posts he seems to fulfill a pivotal role. According to him the reason he is (or they are) keeping a tight lid on some of the code, most importantly transparent forging which sounds an awful lot like the delegate system from what I'm reading there, is because he fears cloning/forking and first wants the network effect and node-framework in place before making it public.Is NXT not getting any shit for that? Just look at what the Invictus team has to put up with and they aren't even locking their share in or keeping secrets like that. Hell they seem to be exceptionally public and outspoken even encouraging people to fork/compete so you'd expect NXT to receive a much bigger public lashing, very odd. There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?
Nxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit active
It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
Quote from: JoeyD on May 20, 2014, 10:43:14 pmQuote from: gamey on May 20, 2014, 10:38:55 pmI said recent. By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network. Damn, I can't believe I missed that. That completely destroys any sympathy I had for the project and I'm very glad you brought that point up. That's another project I had some hope for down the drain.Do not quote me on that though. That was just my impression after a brief inspection. So correct me if I'm wrong please. They're going to make sure that all the currency forks are behind them. It is not particularly wrong but it really isn't the same as a true open source project. I only bring these things up in defense of bitshares and their model. I think nxt is cool tech just not really competing with bts/pts.
Quote from: gamey on May 20, 2014, 10:38:55 pmI said recent. By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network. Damn, I can't believe I missed that. That completely destroys any sympathy I had for the project and I'm very glad you brought that point up. That's another project I had some hope for down the drain.
I said recent. By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network.
Quote from: gamey on May 20, 2014, 09:58:56 pmYes, NXT still has not released any recent source code. If you would like to look at the code of the AE then AFAIK you are shit out of luck. (Yes you can decompile it, but one can decompile *ANY* code and that doesn't make it open source.) Please correct me if wrong. Atcually I'm not sure how the alternative wallets were made ? Off published spec? Anyone know ?As much as the open source model hurts some, it has come to be expected in crypto-currency world. Anyone should be able to see why...NXT's DACs are not DACs by any stretch. Remove the A and it would be a far closer fit. I applaud them for that direction, but there is nothing autonomous that I see.What are you for real, nxt still hasn't opensourced their code? I admit I didn't look into it, but there was this big announcement and hubbub on the bitcointalk-thread how they had finally released all source-code with 3 major flaws and a bounty for the person who could find them. In the crypto-currency/equity-world for me open-source is fundamental even-though I'm just a white belt in code-fu and I would not be able to find any real flaws, I'd still advise anyone against trusting in security through obscurity. After Snowden that security model has been definitively proven as flawed and unusable. I figured I'd give nxt a little time and see how it would stand up to the scrutiny of the usual peer-review process, but if it is not open-source it should be avoided like the bubonic plague.EDITVery odd though, because bluemeanie was raging on bitcointalk about how Ethereum wasn't opensource and hadn't released any of the real important code proving that their security could work.
Yes, NXT still has not released any recent source code. If you would like to look at the code of the AE then AFAIK you are shit out of luck. (Yes you can decompile it, but one can decompile *ANY* code and that doesn't make it open source.) Please correct me if wrong. Atcually I'm not sure how the alternative wallets were made ? Off published spec? Anyone know ?As much as the open source model hurts some, it has come to be expected in crypto-currency world. Anyone should be able to see why...NXT's DACs are not DACs by any stretch. Remove the A and it would be a far closer fit. I applaud them for that direction, but there is nothing autonomous that I see.
back to zero balance again wow. i'm glad I didn't invest a lot.
Quote from: fuznuts on May 20, 2014, 10:43:44 amNXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with. Since when did our culture get so impatient? If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today. Patience? What you are waiting for is quite possible just a litecoin with bitcoin already out there. NXT AE is online, and BTS is still struggling on the test of the test network. If AE and BTS ME is doing similar job, apparently NXT IS the winner. Who know NXT won't push a project similar to BTS X in a month?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with. Since when did our culture get so impatient? If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today.
Quote from: liondani on May 20, 2014, 10:13:05 amQuote from: xeroc on May 20, 2014, 10:04:42 amQuote from: gaba on May 20, 2014, 09:55:59 amNXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.Sad .. but trueLet's be a little bit more patience and wait to make the comparison when the "product" is out...NXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with. Since when did our culture get so impatient? If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today.
Quote from: xeroc on May 20, 2014, 10:04:42 amQuote from: gaba on May 20, 2014, 09:55:59 amNXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.Sad .. but trueLet's be a little bit more patience and wait to make the comparison when the "product" is out...
Quote from: gaba on May 20, 2014, 09:55:59 amNXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.Sad .. but true
Same thing has happened with my NXT. It came and went from the wallet, but as long as you can see it on the blockchain, you'll just need to wait until the next time they release an updated wallet that actually works. I started my 2.0 experiment with NXT, but quickly became frustrated, and ended up much happier here with Bitshares. I don't see why they had to build that whole NXT ecosystem from scratch on Java with that clunky passphrase login. They are slowly making NXT more user friendly, but I still didn't have a good feeling about it and I moved on. Most importantly, they do not have the vision of Bitshares in terms of the products, nor does NXT have anyone with a keen understanding of economics like Bitshares does. Aside from Maidsafe, is there a single worthy investment anywhere in Mastercoin or NXT? They all look like scams, fly-by-night schemes, and assorted trash. I'd trade them all for a snapshot in any one DAC within Bitshares...Oh that's right; I did trade them in all for PTS and AGS already!One more thing: I love that we know who the Bitshares team is. They're not hiding under some rock using fake names. This is an honest and communicative bunch.
One more thing: I love that we know who the Bitshares team is. They're not hiding under some rock using fake names. This is an honest and communicative bunch.