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another fact I need to talk is that the improved algorithm of margin call(sell part) make the sell smooth, this can encourage people buy margin call order, reduce the blackswan risk.the lower MCR given, the low effect from this new alogrithm. it will totally lose effect when MCR reduce to 1.
Quote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 09:46:40 amQuote from: bitcrab on December 04, 2018, 09:22:25 amQuote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 amI didn't see any point to get profit from it, if you have you should do it.As a trader I will never borrow a cent if you can make me margin call without price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.Why I need to take this risk? You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.Those were my thoughts as well which is why I suggested limiting the possible dynamic movement of MCR/MSSR.If you know that MCR will NEVER go above 2.0 for example, you just keep it over 2.0 and be just as safe.A brief/rough description is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958
Quote from: bitcrab on December 04, 2018, 09:22:25 amQuote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 amI didn't see any point to get profit from it, if you have you should do it.As a trader I will never borrow a cent if you can make me margin call without price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.Why I need to take this risk? You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.
Quote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 amI didn't see any point to get profit from it, if you have you should do it.As a trader I will never borrow a cent if you can make me margin call without price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
I didn't see any point to get profit from it, if you have you should do it.As a trader I will never borrow a cent if you can make me margin call without price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.
Quote from: alt on November 30, 2018, 04:06:35 amwhy don't we improve step by step?I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me, at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as manipulation.I understand that letting witness tune MCR introduce much uncertainty, so now in my mind it will be better if we can do this in another way, like:1.witnesses just feed market price and premium.2.system tune MCR periodically based on the fed premium, for example the rule can be: system adjust MCR every hour, if premium is inside -2%-1%, do not adjust the MCR, otherwise, tune it 0.001(start point 1.75) to according direction. maybe need to set max and min limit on MCR, for example 1.25-2.however I am not sure whether this is technological possible and whether community can reach consensus on this.
why don't we improve step by step?I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me, at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as manipulation.
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pmImagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?I haven't seen any serious central bank has reduce interest rate first and increase rate at the next second, interest rate is an important tool for central bank to push the currency policy.
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pmwhatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call. Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?whether borrowing is safe not only depend on the market, but also on the rule.one simple example/logic: at the time that bitCNY is in high premium as of now, when MCR is reduced, one can borrow say 100K bitCNY and get 102K CNY, when premium go down to -1%, MCR return to high level, he can buy 103KbitCNY with 102KCNY, pay the 100K debt and get 3K as profit.does this business make sense? yes, one can make profit with it, and help to balance the ecosystem. why not encourage this kind of business?
whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call. Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 12:53:39 pmI will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really increase the supply?higher feed price/lower MCR means user can borrow more bitCNY with the same collateral.that's how it increase the supply.witnesses has the logic that feed price depending on the market price and premium, not to feed price at will.
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really increase the supply?
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 12:34:21 pmyou guys really don't realize how critical this manipulation will result.A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%, he will just stop buy until it reach.And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.if this poll get more support than 1.4.119, trader will know that bitCNY will not have a 10% premium, they know what to do.maybe bitCNY holders will regret to lose chance to buy cheaper BTS, but it benefit the whole ecosystem as BTS need not to reach lower price and traders need not to suffer high premium of bitCNY.this method is far from perfect, hope you can participate more in the discussion of the alternative solution of BSIP42.
you guys really don't realize how critical this manipulation will result.A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%, he will just stop buy until it reach.And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.
Even though I am not convinced this approach will work, I support this as a temporary meassure until we can use the MCR more dynamically.
Quote from: alt on November 29, 2018, 08:46:12 pmI support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)I support reduce MSSR to 5%.The simpler the rule, the more robust it is. Simply adjusting MSSR has fewer variables affecting the market.MSSR reduced from 10% to 5%, the number of BTS sold by closed margin postions will be reduced by 5%, and there is still 5% arbitrage space between CEX and DEX.At present, the application scenario of stable-currency is used by digital currency investors to hedge against the market when they fall. For hedging, 5% volatility is not unacceptable. We need precise anchoring only for payment.
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
Quote from: alt on November 30, 2018, 03:18:37 amQuote from: finn-bts on November 30, 2018, 01:44:16 amQuote from: alt on November 29, 2018, 08:46:12 pmI support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.You should never expect more from them.We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.we learned a lot in the long painful process.if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.
Quote from: finn-bts on November 30, 2018, 01:44:16 amQuote from: alt on November 29, 2018, 08:46:12 pmI support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.You should never expect more from them.We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.
Quote from: alt on November 29, 2018, 08:46:12 pmI support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.we design complex solution because the world is complex.I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:1. dynamic MCR2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.3. MSSR changeI understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.hope you can understand and help in the process.
Quote from: alt on November 30, 2018, 03:18:37 amQuote from: finn-bts on November 30, 2018, 01:44:16 amQuote from: alt on November 29, 2018, 08:46:12 pmI support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.You should never expect more from them.We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.we learned a lot in the long painful process.if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.we design complex solution because the world is complex.I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:1. dynamic MCR2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.3. MSSR changeI understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.hope you can understand and help in the process.
What is important and which clockwork also mentioned on another thread is the quick update of the margin call price in a quick downfall so the open margin calls will eat the open buy orders instead of traders taking them away
Even i'm an enemy of BSIP42 at current situation I temporarly support bitcrabs proposal for the good of the community till the bug is fixed to implement the other solution proposed by Stefan or till the MCR recovers.QuoteThat is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin.It depends who is buying the margin.People buying margin to increase their stacke will definetly not decrease the price of BTS however giving the opportunity on such a big sell wall for arbitrage it would at current situation automaticly mean that people would buy cheap BTS at DEX to dump it on CEX with a profit which would lead to a price fall and creating bitcny with a 10% (MSSR)premium. Making sure what bitcrab proposed to always have margin call price under real price feed (hopefully 1,5-2%) is a fair solution.It won't get the margin so quickly eaten but it will also not have a big negativ effect on BTS price on CEX.What is important and which clockwork also mentioned on another thread is the quick update of the margin call price in a quick downfall so the open margin calls will eat the open buy orders instead of traders taking them away
That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin.
Quote from: binggo on November 29, 2018, 01:55:21 pmRaising MSSR to 120% is not a good idea, the 110%MSSR is a problem already, raising MSSR can't solve any problems.The shock therapy in RUSSIA is not what we need now, so we need the updated BSIP42.It sure can! It will "force" the less collaterized positions to add more collateral to avoid the "penalty", and it will induce more borrowers to participate to buy cheaper bts from the margin called positions ...
Raising MSSR to 120% is not a good idea, the 110%MSSR is a problem already, raising MSSR can't solve any problems.The shock therapy in RUSSIA is not what we need now, so we need the updated BSIP42.
Fractional reserve CNY here we come!
agree
What about raising MSSR to 20% and decreasing MCR to 1.50 for start... ? The market should revive MUCH easier.PS Or temporary decrease MCR to 1.3 to insta-revive ... am I missing something?
Quote from: liondani on November 29, 2018, 01:15:14 pmQuote 1.price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin. Actually I personally believe if you let the market free as possible it will happen in no time. Raise MSSR to 20% for start and then you will see how margin will get eaten!yes, some more margin order will be eaten, and people can buy cheaper BTS in DEX, BTS price in CEX will fall, and then feed price will become lower, more debt position margin called, bitCNY will be in higher premium - this is positive feedback, we have seen similar process before 719 hard fork, unfortunately we now see this again. we have better way to revive the whole ecosystem.
Quote 1.price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin. Actually I personally believe if you let the market free as possible it will happen in no time. Raise MSSR to 20% for start and then you will see how margin will get eaten!
1.price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.
BTS price in CEX will fall
Quote from: bitcrab on November 29, 2018, 11:59:26 amas some time ago the voting power that oppose BSIP42 overcome that support BSIP42, most of the witnesses return to feed just market price, immediately the BTS/bitCNY price fall about 8%, although more margin call orders are eaten, but:1. price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.2. bitCNY has a premium of about 10%, it's a disaster for bitCNY business.3.more debt position margin called, not obvious margin call quantity reduction.actually witnesses need to be careful while doing a big change, it is not a good behavior to just change while seeing the voting result - no one host/claim/announce the voting activity, it is likely that some balance owner change lead to this result, please be careful while seeing this!here I propose to restart BSIP42, with adding some new logic:1.add the black swan protection logic, ensure feed price >global settlement price*1.112.ensure feed price > market price.3.ensure feed price < market price*MSSR4. if 1 conflict with 3, ignore 3.5.tolerate a -2%-1% premium, do not adjust feed price if bitCNY premium is in this interval.this poll will be regarded successful if it get more voting weight than 1.14.119(2) only in case of premium imho...
as some time ago the voting power that oppose BSIP42 overcome that support BSIP42, most of the witnesses return to feed just market price, immediately the BTS/bitCNY price fall about 8%, although more margin call orders are eaten, but:1. price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.2. bitCNY has a premium of about 10%, it's a disaster for bitCNY business.3.more debt position margin called, not obvious margin call quantity reduction.actually witnesses need to be careful while doing a big change, it is not a good behavior to just change while seeing the voting result - no one host/claim/announce the voting activity, it is likely that some balance owner change lead to this result, please be careful while seeing this!here I propose to restart BSIP42, with adding some new logic:1.add the black swan protection logic, ensure feed price >global settlement price*1.112.ensure feed price > market price.3.ensure feed price < market price*MSSR4. if 1 conflict with 3, ignore 3.5.tolerate a -2%-1% premium, do not adjust feed price if bitCNY premium is in this interval.this poll will be regarded successful if it get more voting weight than 1.14.119