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Messages - gamey

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2161
General Discussion / Re: Achieving consensus through crypto-random leader election
« on: April 28, 2014, 01:26:43 am »
Quote from: tipon on April 28, 2014, 12:31:37 am
I understand that, but why does bitcoin uses proof of work?
Whats the reason the inventor adopted this architecture?
Whats the objetive of proof of work?

The best answer is it works. 

If you were starting out the first cryptocurrency, how would you get it to work ?  Mining allowed anyone to grab a piece in the early days.  If the author had used POS or something, it is possible it would have been an invention that died off like a lot of code.

Now after it has blown up and has this huge marketcap, we have this whole arms race thing.  Before that resources were wasted on GPUs.  That however is a problem that occurred after success.  The author had to have success first.  I'm not sure other distributions mechanisms would or could have worked.  The other ways pretty much prevent new comers from being a part of it, whereas mining keeps divying up yet to be created currency.  That alone may have very well been what drove bitcoin to a critical mass.  That and it simply works !

2162
General Discussion / Re: MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin
« on: April 28, 2014, 01:03:59 am »

I'm guessing here, but I'd guess the motivations for people to put their computer in this network will have little to do with the reality of the economics and more to do with pure geekery joy.

I'd like to see a chart with how many people need your data while online for it to be available and various speeds etc.  I forget how various RAIDs work so I really have no clue about requirements for redundancy, but seems to me there are a lot of unknowns and that a certain % of people are just gonna hit the edge case where >X% of their storage providers quit and invalidate the user's whole data store.    What is X% ?

I guess redundancy isn't really the issue because space isn't a premium.  Like bytemaster said it is the bandwidth.  Maybe with enough redundancy we'll be able to saturate a consumer grade internet connection using this.. 

For me, dropbox + truecrypt works fine.  I am far more interested in seeing them work on a TOR type network.  With China and their firewall, it might be a more profitable app.

2163
General Discussion / Discussion on Treechains .
« on: April 27, 2014, 08:11:40 pm »

I don't really get this.  I see Peter Todd talking about it on twitter pointing to this posting.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=586832.0

If anyone else has other links on the discussion of this approach, please post them here.  Thoughts ?

2164
General Discussion / Re: "I think the biggest thing is...that they are going to continue using ASICs."
« on: April 27, 2014, 05:34:39 pm »

 A premine can utilize IPO.  An IPO can be a joke, depending on how "public" the offering is.  Look at the sourgrapes NXT complaints.  My point here is that POW is not any worse of a distribution mechanism than most of the offered alternatives.

I didn't mean to imply that the distribution of bitcoin is wide because of POW, I was just disagreeing that bitcoin distribution is among the "most horrible of all crypto ledger projects".  You really need to be specific about what is "horrible".  If you were to use # of wallet as the metric, I think one would come to a different conclusion.

Even in the early days with bitcoin, I'm sure the # of miners vs the community size was closer in quantity than it is now.   One could argue that any bitcoin distribution problems are a result of how much the community has grown.

Obviously whether or not the mining period is over with a coin will affect the market price.   You are right it doesn't define it, but I am not sure about your last sentence.  You seem to be saying 2 different things.  You say mining period doesn't affect market price because market price takes it into account ?!?  Interesting perspective.

2165
General Discussion / Re: "I think the biggest thing is...that they are going to continue using ASICs."
« on: April 27, 2014, 03:41:04 pm »
Quote
I would guess that Bitcoin distribution is among the most horrible of all crypto ledger projects. So that can not be an argument for Bitcoin. Would be interesting to compare the Bitshares distribution to Bitcoin distribution.
        Then can POW guarantee a better distribution? The only thing is does differently (in a far less efficient way) is it avoids legal challenges of an IPO that could also go over a very long period of time and could mimic the bitcoin creation model. It is an illusion that mining gives coins to the average guy. In the end mining gives the coins just to those that can afford mining equipment that is efficient enough to be run economically. In the end miners are professionals that invest in equipment that bring coins into existence and then sell those coins for a price above electricity costs. If you can not afford this mining equipment you have to buy the coins from the professional miners for the market value if there was no mining + the electricity costs of the miner + a small margin. In the end you can not avoid to distribute the coins based on peoples buying power (money) but making an IPO in addition gives you capital so you can speed up the development process and promote the idea to get a wider supporter base....

POW is still just a fair as POS.  It just wastes of lot of resources long term.  With POS, once the market price is established thats about the only way you get coins.  With POW at least there is an ability to get them below market price until mining period is over, but the cost of entry might be prohibitive.

POS doesn't really define a distribution, so it can be literally the worst possibile distribution to the best.  Where as with POW this is not the case.

Even then you need to define what specifically is a better distribution.  I'm sure BTC has more users/wallets than any altcoin.   Tiny chance DOGE beats BTC.

-edit I miss your original point and that is POS leaves more capital for the creators.  Thats true, but thats not necessarily good or bad.  With all the altcoins premines are seen as evil and unfair.  It is all perspective and value judgement need context.  If you were trying to make litecoin #2 POW is ok, if you want to distribute shares in a company POW distribution isn't even workable.

2166
General Discussion / Re: Infested with tabs? This can help...
« on: April 27, 2014, 03:19:51 pm »
First post here suggesting cryptocurrency people use your buddy's possible malware?

I have a tab problem, but sub-string search won't help much.

Just pointing out to anyone who might be a bit more trusting.... be careful.

2167
General Discussion / Re: Achieving consensus through crypto-random leader election
« on: April 27, 2014, 06:12:01 am »
And the level of waste is proportional to the value of a bitcoin.  I think it is safe to say we'll never be able to trust bitcoin status in China in any reasonable way going forward.  The same with Russia.  However if for whatever reason the price shot up again, we'd see a roughly equivalent increase in wasted resources.  So BTC's "success" is tied into this waste. 

It really is a mess.  POW was a great way for initial distribution and still does a decent job at this, but IMO it has outgrown its place.

2168
General Discussion / Re: MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin
« on: April 25, 2014, 09:41:33 pm »

Their marketing is interesting.  Always talk of this little town but with far flung experts in all these fields.  It sets up your interest level quite a bit. 

I won't contrast it with how Dan goes into the origin of his idea, but perhaps a bit of consideration in that area could be useful.

2169
General Discussion / Re: MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin
« on: April 25, 2014, 04:39:46 pm »
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-01/27/maidsafe-bitcloud

They're getting their name out there.  8 years of development.  Holy moly, no wonder why they're trying to get something out the door.

2170
General Discussion / Re: MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin
« on: April 25, 2014, 05:47:34 am »

Honestly I am not sure how this would work.  (Not to be a broken record.. but I am not even referring to their token system.)

 I could run it on my VPS to subsidize the cost perhaps? 

As a user, I'd be scared whatever is required to maintain my data store would lose enough members to cause corruption.  Perhaps some glitch causes irreversible corruption.  Just use dropbox/whatever + truecrypt.  What else could you purchase of value?  An openly available botnet? 

What happens if my computer has data from a serious criminal?  What would prevent a subpoena from having my computer confiscated if needed for forensic recreation of evidence? 

Having a botnet to use could be interesting, but not sure people would want that stuff running off their computers ?

Is there TOR type functionality ?  Onion routing ?

Who is their target?  Dropbox/google has this stuff already ?

2171
General Discussion / Re: New Economic Paradigm, Collaborative Commons
« on: April 25, 2014, 04:44:57 am »
Quote from: clout on April 25, 2014, 03:39:49 am

the cost of acquiring information can be paid for with a derivative asset that is correlated to its utility in society. in this way we no longer need patents. innovators do not have to pay the fees associated with patents and the economy does not need to suffer an artificial monopoly, all while still providing incentive to research and innovate.
...

how is information not more valuable as more people use it? that seems to go against the entire premise of the open source movement. 


I do not get the first part at all.  How would a derivative asset correlate to the utility of society ?  How would it be determined ?



Information has many different categories.  The 4 off hand that have may different answers to your questions.

1) General advances.  Medical, engineering etc.

More valuable to society when more use it, but not necesarily more value to those acquiring it.  Their skills are diluted, more competition etc.

2) Entertainment.  You'd need to define value to the consumer or value to the producer in a way similar to the above.

3) Exploitive knowledge that is not widely know.  The value plummets as more use it.  Similar to category 1.

4) Open source ?  I may derive value in using it, but that doesn't mean that I receive more value as more people use it.

Really this is a semantic issue and you need to be more precise in defining value and to whom.

2172
General Discussion / Re: Rename this section to Decentralized Autonomous Credit Union
« on: April 24, 2014, 09:31:32 pm »

I think what Dan is trying to do is come up with ideas to better convey what Bitshares is.

Being effective at conveying something is not necessarily the same as being the most accurate description.

Accuracy can cause issues in conveying.  (too many details! )

Perhaps "Digital Autonomous Credit Cooperatives".   lol..  just a thought ;)

2173
General Discussion / Re: Wisdom is spreading
« on: April 24, 2014, 09:05:58 pm »
Quote from: bytemaster on April 24, 2014, 08:46:27 pm
Whole crap that discussion on that thread was ignorant!   We have a lot of work to do....

POS was seen as rent seekers, as socialist, as money from nothing.... as if the fact that you burned 100 USD entitles you to something.

Too many investments in POW coins and mining equipment. 

Fortunately I think in discussions outside of our little altcurrency world the POS arguments are stronger.   The endless arms race for miners + power consumption is not a selling point for anyone not already invested in such things.

2174
BitShares PTS / Re: Difficulty would change after 60 days, who else think this is gonna happen?
« on: April 24, 2014, 09:02:49 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on April 24, 2014, 06:13:09 pm
Wheres the difference: one guy adding a translation to ones own post....
Or all those reading the thread doing these shortcut marathons?

In chrome I recall right-clicking and choosing translate from the popup and the whole page is translated in English.  I often scratch my head but it is at least amusing. 

2175
General Discussion / Re: Mumble Server Issues?
« on: April 24, 2014, 08:58:48 pm »

Part of the problem is that there is no polished solo test feature like in skype.  So unless people get on earlier and do a 'test test test' type call and get someone's feedback, they might run into issues when they decide to speak.  Bytemaster was fine the first time, but on the third try it took him several minutes to get something corrected.  You'd need to work with speakers ahead of time I think.

The other thing is that you might wish to tell people to mute themselves/push to talk. Make it VERY clear when you announce so you don't get people joining with instant feedback.

Also, if the person is speaking much, they should turn off that typed chat -> voice synth.  It might be ok in some situations, but it should not be on as a default.  It throws off the person talking when they start hearing Robby the Robot talking over them.  The typed chat should not be intrusive to the main speakers. 

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