License 2) an extra strong copyleft license that does not enforce the social contract (for entities that do not claim copyright)

If the entity does not claim copyright what is the point of having a license at all? And if they do claim copyright that is why they should read License 1.

So I don't see any reason why we should have more than 1 License for all. If you don't believe in copyright then don't read the license because it's legalese gibberish but if you do believe in that then read and follow the law.

Quote from: btclawyer on January 18, 2014, 12:22:24 am

Assuming we take a Dual License Approach, how do we know which license each user is operating under?

that is one of the issues i wanted to bring up. Unless it is absolutely necesarry i believe the current approach is best. A single license that stipulates the rights accorded to the two groups is a cleaner and enforceable solution. I've heard of a product having two licenses but it sounds messy,especially considering the stipulations. Perhaps Single Vendor Commercial Open Source option can offer some ideas. i'll ruminate the idea

I agree. There is no reason why more than one license should exist. Having more than one makes it unnecessary and complicated. No one is going to read a license if they don't believe in copyright. Do "pirates" read the FBI warning?

Just so you know

1. There is no public ledger over how funds are being spent. I saw Brian gets 100 pts a week for working with Invictus? Last I checked no start-up founder gets  close to 10k a month in salary unless he's running a bloated company thats headed to a crash

PTS are not dollars. Solid point but dollars are stable while PTS could crash at any moment. Also many artists and marketing directors do get paid in stock. People being paid in PTS are similar to people being paid in stock, not dollars.

So you're wrong. It's actually normal to offer stock options or to pay in stock as well as dollars. How do you think the people working for companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook all became so rich? They were paid in $ along with stock.

People paid in PTS are more like people who get paid in stock. In my opinion this is fair. As far as whether or not they are amateurs, that will be revealed by the quality of their work. At the end of the day PTS have to recirculate back into the community and over time the amateurs gain skill and become experts.

You're right, they do need to hire more full time programmers. But you're wrong in saying that PTS should be valued in $ as if the $ value cannot be crashed. It's stock which means at any moment you could get 100PTS of worthlessness or 100PTS worth $100,000. We just don't know but that is one of the reasons why it's exciting for people to work for start ups. Working for a start up which goes on to become successful can make you rich.

As a miner and investor you're taking a risk, but so are the people who invest their time on these bounties. As long as people are willing to take a risk for the project, they should be able to receive the rewards.

Dear crypto folks.

The government of the United States of America are attempting to regulate bitcoin and cryptocoins in general in any way possible.
They will, if they haven't already, realize that decentralized currencies are by design resistant to regulations.
Which in turn will lead to other approaches like deeming cryptos as a criminal instrument and/or a danger to everyone’s security and safety. I tell you, by looking deeply into my glass ball, that they will try to license the use of crypto currencies and deem any unlicensed use as illegal activity, thus posing a real threat to all your newly acquired wealth.
This will happen big time with media around the globe tooting into the same horn and ruining the image of cryptocurrencies to the average joe. They will be successful with that because many many people still dont use the internet.
I was in politics and this is the standard procedure for any unwanted developments by the reigning governments.
You can expect at least North America, Europe and Russia to be involved in this movement, plus all the satellite installations currently echoing the call of the Dollar. China already stepped back from bitcoins.

We all need to do something.

Spread the word about the Dirty Dollar and Clean Crypto Currencies and spread to your offline friends, your parents and the people you deal with every day.
We need to announce it to the real world. Print flyers, make an index of currencies involved in criminal activities to show, who the real criminals are and what currency they prefer.
We need to convince those who just feed their thirst of information off the mass media like television, newspaper and radio.
Do it now, before the regulators and banksters take actions.
Create logos and images that stick to the peoples brains so their minds are fortified against this gigantic delusion.

This is a serious threat, because all our internet activities are under surveillance and there is one bottleneck to crypto currencies, which is the internet itself.

I do not have the money nor the influence to get this done, but if we all stick our heads together and toot into our horn, then we have a real chance this spin will evaporate.
People don’t trust the banksters anymore and bitcoins are a serious threat for currencies under governmental regulation.
But if the bitcoin falls, all other crypto currencies will fall with it and all your dreams of freedom and decentralization have to be delayed.

but please, don't panic

Id like to see some brainstorming in this thread as to how this can be achieved.
I will try to spread the word to other nodes and you should too.

Maybe we can come up with some claims here.
I will create a flyer and post it here when its done, maybe you can do something like that too.

Sorry for stirring up all that dust, but i myself was victim of weird CIA influence because my words were too convincing and too liberal, having a whole political party be diluted into a pliant steerable mass as a result.
Also good day to any agents trying to derail this thread.

Why haven't they outlawed the Internet or Bittorrent?

All you have to do is show there are use cases which apply to other things besides criminal uses. I think it has been established that there are legitimate uses.

Just an idea for a DAC, if someone wanted to take it up.

You should be able to encrypt the data if the work is layered in crypto ?

This is actually incredibly difficult to do decentralized but not impossible. Perhaps investigate secure multiparty computation and look for code which can work as a proof of concept to show it's possible to do it.

If it's possible then you can do it better than has been done in the past but doing something completely new is very hard. Even Satoshi based Bitcoin on Bitgold and Hashcash.

donSchoe's tradable Angelshares (tAGS)

Wait, what?
Angelshares are by design not tradable. Many people rather keep their Protoshares because of the increased flexibility. This is not true anymore as of today: I'm introducing tradable Angelshares!


Why tradable Angelshares?
To allow more investors to approach Angelshares without being bond to I3, you can now purchase Angelshares from me and I will allow to trade these shares among the community. The benefit is clear, if you dont want to hold any AGS anymore, just find a buyer and sell your shares. I will keep track of the owner of all the shares.


How does that work?

• Claiming tradable Angelshares:

Send PTS to PtAGSL6YnPMuyGkoMHPnVg28nGEyryyRJM or BTC to 1tAGSAuZT4m3K6YFfa2Dqfve2WUxrGCXe. I will keep track of all incoming transactions on a daily basis and add them to the orderbook (link see below). Your final balance of tAGS will be calculated by the daily AGS/PTS or AGS/BTC rate multiplied by 0.9 (why see below).

• Selling tradable Angelshares:

You dont want to hold any tAGS anymore? Just create a post or thread on forum stating the amount of tAGS to be sold and the price. This post must be signed by the public key you used above to claim the tAGS initially. With the signature you prove the ownership of the tAGS. If you find a buyer, send me message or point me to the thread/post where the trade was agreed and again, create a signed message which includes the new owners public key. I will change the owner on the orderbook after successfull pubkey verification.

• Buying tradable Angelshares:

You can either claim tAGS by sending PTS/BTC to me (see above) or buy tAGS from other shareholders if they wish to sell (see above). Confirm potential sellers by public key verification and double check back with the orderbook (link below).


How to claim future DACs?
As I'm holding the Angelshares for you and organize the virtual tAGS, I'm also responsible for claiming and distributing the shares of future DACs. You will get your share by the value of the AGS you are holding. For each future DAC I will create a claiming thread where everyone holding tAGS creates a signed post which includes a public address of the DAC where I can send the shares to. PMs are fine too, as long as they are signed by the public key holding the tAGS.


What's the price?
10%. I'm selling tAGS 10% below the daily AGS/BTC and AGS/PTS rates. This might sound high at first glance but it's alot of work for me to organize the Orderbook on daily basis and to payout future DAC shares and Bitshares. If it's too much for you, you can still buy regular untradable AGS here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1863.0


Book of Shareholders:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsHKRepEtagfdHZSM1FmMEhWTU5Ud1NDNUlqS1RlaVE&usp=sharing
PTS Transactions: https://coinplorer.com/PTS/Addresses/PtAGSL6YnPMuyGkoMHPnVg28nGEyryyRJM
BTC Transactions: https://blockchain.info/address/1tAGSAuZT4m3K6YFfa2Dqfve2WUxrGCXe


Fineprint:

• I'm not buying tradable Angelshares back. If you purchased some before and want to sell them, find a buyer first before contacting me.
• The rate AGS/PTS and AGS/BTC may vary on daily donation amount. The daily rate will be the final value at 0:00 UTC minus 10%.
• If a future DAC allocation is announced, only tAGS issued until 0:00 UTC at the day of the DAC launch will be accounted in the DAC shares distribution.
• I got a job and family, If I'm not able to update the rates for 1-2 days at midnight, don't panic. Your tAGS wont change or get lost as the rates are defined above and are fixed by definition. I will write a script to automate tAGS rates calculation soon to improve usability and transparency of this service. Until then, you will have to check coinplorer and google docs manually.

Did I mention, they are tradable? 

LMAO this idea is so brilliant it's bogus!

will get even more regreat about the prices after a couple of years

0.1 BTC by 2015 for PTS. It's looking good. That will be around $1000 peak with $100 if nothing changes. That is a magnificent profit for speculators no matter how this plays out but if Bitshares is a success we will see 0.1 BTC and let us remember that BTC will go up between x10-x100 from here this year.

Crowd funding will become more important as the price of PTS appreciates because anyone will be able to be an investor and there will be a lot more accredited investors too. Positive feedback loop, the more DACs there are the more PTS. In a few years a PTS could be going for 0.3 or 0.4 BTC because I'm projecting a growth rate of around +0.1 BTC per year based on the success of certain DACs.

So 0.1 if Bitshares is a success. Then of course there will be DACs which come after which could turn it to 0.2, and then 0.3. I don't see it getting a lot higher than 0.3 though because you will have Mastercoin and Ethereum to compete with. Mastercoin I predicted it would reach parity with Bitcoin but now that it has such competition it might only reach 0.7. It's impossible to know for sure.

Quote from: luckybit on January 11, 2014, 05:42:52 pm

I'm with it. I think the key to getting community support is offering a good crowd funding bargain.
If you're going to seek investment via crowd funding you have to offer some promise of a return on investment and that part is going to be difficult initially. Neo Bee seems to be doing a good job as a payment network and they were crowd funded so it's possible but it's hard.

I think something like Bitshares really needs a fiat -> BTS exchange.

Neo Bee is doing a good job because they are a full reserve bank. They are more solvent and traditional than the fractional reserve banks that regulations exist for. They bypassed most of the regulatory obstacles. The profits of a fractional reserve banking system had driven full reserve banking out of the market. Neo Bee will do well because they stand alone as people lose confidence in fractional reserve banking and the fiat that they are based upon.

DACs have similar advantages being unmanned businesses. Some of them will go on to be immensely profitable and as technology advances they will only become more efficient. Human run businesses will not be able to compete with them in the long term.

It is still up to us to negotiate with the larger finance and banking community. They present some rules they want or expect our community to comply with and whether those rules make sense or are problems to be solved later. What we can do now is codify some rules of our own which we would want businesses to follow if they use our DACs, our software, our hardware, or anything we create which could be of value to them. Since we are in a position to set rules, while you start of course with the social consensus license which applies to any entity which legally wants to use the software produced by that license, there are many other possible licenses which all can be used to defend the community. Some licenses are more defensive, some are more offensive, some are aggressive and some aren't.

The strategy I propose is that free speech be used to protect the DAC community and ecosystem.  Free speech could take the form of legal documents which protect the little guy from being exploited by the big guy, or which promote decentralization. For example it could be a legally formal tradition for us to favor the more decentralized solutions and we can easily take that principle and others like it and set up a certification system where the community certifies certain DACs as being compliant and other DACs as not being compliant as a way to protect the community from hostile DACs which promote centralization in the name of compliance, politics, or some profit scheme.

Legal speech just like writing software are both represented under the free speech umbrella. Free speech is what can defend the community and the DAC community at the core has to be a free speech community. The moment we start censoring ourselves and stifling innovation in favor of compliance or profit is when we lose the disruptive and innovative essence.

I feel like eventually if bitshares are mainstays in the altcoin world, then one of the big exchanges bitpay/ coinbase will begin implementing it into their operations. 

However, I do see where this idea would be crucial 5 or 6 years down the line, just skeptical about its viability and benefits today.

Centralized big exchanges implementing it isn't as good as a bunch of little exchanges doing it. It's the same problem with https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406152.0

We should try to find a way to do it where it's franchised in a way and not centralized into one jurisdiction. I don't know how to decentralize it but we should at least see if it's possible to do it because centralization should be the last resort for us rather than the first. Can we do a decentralized fiat -> BTS exchange which is compliant?

BTC global has an interesting scheme which we should look into. It is decentralized and could work but of course I'm no lawyer.

Providing a solution, BTC Global has announced today what they call “Massive Parallel Licensing”. Last month we wrote about BTC Global and their ambitious plans for the future (Living in the Future Today). Centered around their Uruguay based exchange, BTC.UY, BTC Global is seeking to create a multi-service bitcoin company that includes merchant solutions, secure storage facilities, digital currency conversions, and consulting services. With its team situated around the world, BTC Global considers itself a ‘true’ distributed startup. Utilizing the same methodology of leveraging its team’s knowledge and resources from around the globe that it is using to operate BTC Global, the company wants to do the same thing for bitcoin regulation.

Mauro Betschart, CEO & Co-Founder, BTC Global
Mauro Betschart, CEO & Co-Founder, BTC Global
Massive Parallel Licensing (MPL) is a partnership program that is part franchising and part crowdsourcing, and which BTC Global believes will provide a solution to “regulatory issues in the United States and worldwide facing bitcoin”. In their prepared statement, BTC Global explained that “the highest hurdle for entrepreneurs interested in launching a Bitcoin exchange business is the significant international and local regulatory requirements.” They added that “it is estimated that an investment of over $10 million would be required to reach total legal compliance in all the U.S. 50 states alone.” To solve this problem, MPL will allow bitcoin operators to partner with BTC Global, and leverage each other’s regulatory infrastructure and resources.

http://forexmagnates.com/compliance-through-alliance-btc-global-introduces-crowdsourced-bitcoin-regulation/
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/5233/btcglobal-commoditizing-the-bitcoin-exchange/