We are vulnerable in decision making

[jakub]

I hope @IOHKCharles could shed some light on it.
As an outsider he can have a better perspective.
Is Ethereum PR carefully managed and coordinated or does it just happen on its own?

[jakub]

Hence, do we really need centralized marketing? 
Sure.  But not as much as we might first think.

We have CNX working for us on the technology side -  do we say we have a centralized technology department? I don't think anybody is seeing it this way.
What is so different if we had a third party company taking care of our marketing strategy? Why are you calling this "centralized marketing"? It's a professional service that needs to hired.
 
All I am saying is that marketing is a profession and an art as much as technology is. (and I feel strange saying this as I am a coder by trade)
And as technology needs someone with long term vision so does marketing.
What makes us so sure the marketing stuff will take care of itself? Doesn't the Ethereum case teach us anything? Do we believe it happened spontaneously or did someone there got it planned and carefully executed?
I just hope we can find a balance and treat both technology and marketing on equal terms.

[Empirical1.2]

Instead, we have evolved a system where... on the marketing side, we have left the referral incentives in place to attract independent marketing initiatives that to a large extent don't need to be coordinated.

 

While I was heavily critical and skeptical of the original delegate's systems ability to add value to BTS. I believe this is a powerful marketing solution that besides being decentralised is also cost effective because it rewards results not good intentions or vote wrangling. It also doesn't require the direct dilution of shares in highly illiquid start-ups to pay for it.

This is all unsubstantiated talk.  Ronny and what other partners?  What businesses are building ontop of Bitshares?  certainly not identabit.  BANX might have shares ontop bitshares today, but they could certainly fork to another network like ripple.  I'm not aware of any partner that will dramatically bring demand to bitshares.  Why would anyone want to build ontop of bitshares when they have their own private blockchains?

I believe moonstone also agree that it's a more lucrative and fair model with regards to how to monetise value from their BitShares wallet.

There have been other announcements about people bringing in their various networks once the referral system is in place but I'll believe that when I see it. Also while it's not all collected in one place, small marketers on this forum, who wouldn't independently qualify for a marketing delegate position, I've seen are creating content to bring people into BitShares via referral links.
 

[topcandle]

One of the things we have worked hard to accomplish is elimination of any central points of coercion.  This has some of the disadvantages indicated by the OP, but it may be a cost worth paying.

Instead, we have evolved a system where devs can be hired independently, while on the marketing side, we have left the referral incentives in place to attract independent marketing initiatives that to a large extent don't need to be coordinated.

Let me explain.

We have a common backbone that all sorts of enterprises can build on.  In general, each can create a different marketing message to their customers, and wind up describing the benefits of a shared backbone any way they like.

The average consumer may not need to know much about the backbone, so we may not really need a unified public perspective on BitShares itself.  As long as guys like Ronny and all our other partners and independent entrepreneurs are out their explaining to the public the competitive benefits that their specific businesses are able to offer because they share a financial backbone with many other businesses, the essential marketing function of attracting, training, and servicing new users can go forward without much coordination.

The only thing they all need in common is some branding of the common backbone itself, like the "powered by BitShares" or "member of BitShares Exhange Network", since that fact is the universal common denominator that leads customers to appreciate a network effect.

But even that branding can be left to partners and entrepreneurs, each of whom can explain the benefits of the BitShares Network in terms their own customers will best understand. 

Our partners have huge incentives to do this custom tailored marketing and better understanding of their specific customers than any one-message-fits-all marketing could ever hope to achieve.

Hence, do we really need centralized marketing? 
Sure.  But not as much as we might first think.

Now marketing the possibilities to new partners is still a challenge, but even that can be done by a thousand uncoordinated evangelists reaching out to entrepreneurs everywhere with a custom message for each one of them.

This is all unsubstantiated talk.  Ronny and what other partners?  What businesses are building ontop of Bitshares?  certainly not identabit.  BANX might have shares ontop bitshares today, but they could certainly fork to another network like ripple.  I'm not aware of any partner that will dramatically bring demand to bitshares.  Why would anyone want to build ontop of bitshares when they have their own private blockchains?

[bulletproof]

...some kind of potential liabilities be it taxes and/or legal responsibilities to BitShares.

Bring on the tax liabilities problem - will imply we are making a profit big enough to attract attention!

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

The point is who will make sure our marketing efforts are consistent and the public image of BitShares is being built according to a thought-out, long-term vision?

This is what DPOSHUB is doing... I think though the interpretation of how you see the BitShares brand is in question.

DPOSHUB will provide not just a community function, but it's a front-end for the rest of the world so that the BitShares brand/ecosystem is in the news continually and in a good way. It's going to be the goto for media outlets worldwide to get source materials not just on what is happening with delegates, but also with partners and other activities happening in BitShares.

I should be clear though, it's not just going to be about the BitShares brand, but about DPOS as a whole.. meaning side-chains will have a place as well.

Vote! delegate.dposhub-org

As for the rest of the discussion.. be careful... BM recently mentioned that the term DAC is  best used as Decentralized Autonomous Community.. not company.. assigning officers and everything else.. you are treading into a no mans land of legal question marks. Just because it's decentralized doesn't mean that such identifications in certain parts of the world are not going to result in some kind of potential liabilities be it taxes and/or legal responsibilities to BitShares.

[bulletproof]

Thanks Stan, good to hear this from you - and it is as I suspected. Indeed one of the attractions of the whole DAC concept for me was exactly this lack of need for siloed roles such as 'Head of Marketing' - we should all aspire to market the enterprise in any way we can.

It of course remains to be seen whether this approach can ultimately lead to real commercial success (read BTS share price!) but I for one am enthused to contribute all I can to the success of BitShares in this form.

[Stan]

One of the things we have worked hard to accomplish is elimination of any central points of coercion.  This has some of the disadvantages indicated by the OP, but it may be a cost worth paying.

Instead, we have evolved a system where devs can be hired independently, while on the marketing side, we have left the referral incentives in place to attract independent marketing initiatives that to a large extent don't need to be coordinated.

Let me explain.

We have a common backbone that all sorts of enterprises can build on.  In general, each can create a different marketing message to their customers, and wind up describing the benefits of a shared backbone any way they like.

The average consumer may not need to know much about the backbone, so we may not really need a unified public perspective on BitShares itself.  As long as guys like Ronny and all our other partners and independent entrepreneurs are out their explaining to the public the competitive benefits that their specific businesses are able to offer because they share a financial backbone with many other businesses, the essential marketing function of attracting, training, and servicing new users can go forward without much coordination.

The only thing they all need in common is some branding of the common backbone itself, like the "powered by BitShares" or "member of BitShares Exhange Network", since that fact is the universal common denominator that leads customers to appreciate a network effect.

But even that branding can be left to partners and entrepreneurs, each of whom can explain the benefits of the BitShares Network in terms their own customers will best understand. 

Our partners have huge incentives to do this custom tailored marketing and better understanding of their specific customers than any one-message-fits-all marketing could ever hope to achieve.

Hence, do we really need centralized marketing? 
Sure.  But not as much as we might first think.

Now marketing the possibilities to new partners is still a challenge, but even that can be done by a thousand uncoordinated evangelists reaching out to entrepreneurs everywhere with a custom message for each one of them.

[bulletproof]

Agreed - the right balance (distributed trust/efficient decision-making) is key. I'd be interested to hear BM's views on this, given his experience/expertise in governance theory. Perhaps this warrants a forum poll on formalising a BitShares 'board' with specific roles & responsibilities?

[jakub]

• Responsibilities of the members;
• Directors’ powers and duties;
• Directors meetings, voting, and other delegates;
• Keep records of the directors;
• Appoint and dismiss directors;
• Issuing shares;
• The different class sections;
• Shares;
• Share transfers;
• Dividends and other distributions to its members;
• The decision of the members of Congress and participants;
• Media and communications;
• Compensation insurance for directors.

I think you've got a typo in your URL.

[jakub]

This point is surely a key challenge for any DAC, as one key difference with a flesh and blood corporation is the lack of an executive board/centralized control - though certainly this is no guarantee good leadership.

That's it. Corporations are efficient beasts and if we are smart we can steal the good solutions from them and leave out the pathological aspects.
It's a big challenge and a big vulnerability for a DAC: to strike the right balance between efficiency in decision making and distribution of power.
I think the sweet spot is very small but if we get it right it will be a massive success.

[bulletproof]

Maybe we could have a paid worker who would be aware of all the marketing projects,  in communication with every team, grouping all the contents/media in one place to make it easy for everyone to spread the word in a more united/homogeneous way ?

wasn't that the idea of DPOSHUB?

Correct

Indeed, DPOSHUB will be good for coordinating our efforts so that marketing resources are reused, good ideas get promoted and workers who don't deliver get fired.

But that's not the point here. The point is who will make sure our marketing efforts are consistent and the public image of BitShares is being built according to a thought-out, long-term vision?
DPOSHUB and the referral program will not solve that. They are just incentive tools. What we need is a marketing strategy and somebody who is responsible (before the shareholders) for implementing it.

Sure, we can do without it. But then we should forget about competing with more organized entities. We will have a better product but they will have the market share.

This point (my emphasis) is surely a key challenge for any DAC, as one key difference with a flesh and blood corporation is the lack of an executive board/centralized control - though certainly this is no guarantee good leadership 

One solution may be to codify an Articles of Association or constitution for BitShares that allows the election of more concentrated power with perhaps elected posts such as CTO (BM I guess) COO, Head of Marketing and - yes - a CEO. All of this could be in the codebase, though I suspect the very idea of more centralized control (trust inference) may be anathema to some of the community. Might this nevertheless be a potential solution?

Edit: url link fixed

Here is a typical list of what the Articles codify for a 'real' corporation, sourced here.


• Responsibilities of the members;
• Directors’ powers and duties;
• Directors meetings, voting, and other delegates;
• Keep records of the directors;
• Appoint and dismiss directors;
• Issuing shares;
• The different class sections;
• Shares;
• Share transfers;
• Dividends and other distributions to its members;
• The decision of the members of Congress and participants;
• Media and communications;
• Compensation insurance for directors.

[jakub]

Maybe we could have a paid worker who would be aware of all the marketing projects,  in communication with every team, grouping all the contents/media in one place to make it easy for everyone to spread the word in a more united/homogeneous way ?

wasn't that the idea of DPOSHUB?

Correct

Indeed, DPOSHUB will be good for coordinating our efforts so that marketing resources are reused, good ideas get promoted and workers who don't deliver get fired.

But that's not the point here. The point is who will make sure our marketing efforts are consistent and the public image of BitShares is being built according to a thought-out, long-term vision?
DPOSHUB and the referral program will not solve that. They are just incentive tools. What we need is a marketing strategy and somebody who is responsible (before the shareholders) for implementing it.

Sure, we can do without it. But then we should forget about competing with more organized entities. We will have a better product but they will have the market share.

In other words, just as we are outsourcing our technology strategy to CNX, we should start outsourcing our marketing strategy in a similar way.
The problem is that most of us have no idea how to build complex IT systems so we are happy to leave it to CNX, whereas when marketing is concerned most of us feel quite competent about it so outsourcing seems kind of weird and unnecessary.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

Maybe we could have a paid worker who would be aware of all the marketing projects,  in communication with every team, grouping all the contents/media in one place to make it easy for everyone to spread the word in a more united/homogeneous way ?

wasn't that the idea of DPOSHUB?

Correct

[fav]

Maybe we could have a paid worker who would be aware of all the marketing projects,  in communication with every team, grouping all the contents/media in one place to make it easy for everyone to spread the word in a more united/homogeneous way ?

wasn't that the idea of DPOSHUB?