Quote

[21:56:11] C-CEX.com: then what's the difference?
[21:56:18] C-CEX.com: Deposit on me, trade on me, withdraw on me...

OK, let me try to answer.

(better a table here)

deposit --- user send coins/fiat to exchange's address/bank account, exchange save info in database --- user send coins/fiat to bridge's address/bank account, bridge issue/send IOU to user on BitShares blockchain
withdraw --- user request withdraw, exchange send coins/fiat to user's address/bank account, save info in database --- user send IOU back to bridge on BitShares blockchain, bridge send coins/fiat to user's address/bank account

I think his point was since you still need to access your cold/hot wallet while using the bridge, that it's still vulnerable and from his pov that didn't make sense.

Still, if you ever want to move coins, you need to access your wallet. I think that logical is flawed because of it. One way or another, you have to do it. The database is simply held on the blockchain instead and I believe a service that cares about it's costumers would prefer this since it's the safest way to keep costumers safe. And I could have insisted on that a little bit more.

Hope someone is ready for round 2 and can share that with him.

Quote from: mudshark79 on January 09, 2016, 11:34:46 pm

Me too I couldn't explain it to someone running an exchange because I have never tried to fully understand what someone running an exchange is doing technically in depth.

The point with the wallet server is a good example. Next time one could try to explain step by step how they would operate their wallet servers differently.
Taken Open-Ledger and OPEN.BTC I would assume they own a BTC-adress which holds the exact number of OPEN.BTC, shoudn't they?

So while am at it: When I look at the open-ledger Site I don't see a link to this said BTC-Account in some BTC-Block explorer and the possibility to request a signed message as proof.
Shouldn't for the sake of transparency that is always mentioned be an easy way for me as a potential user of Openledger to verify that those BTC really are "there" and not just at the moment where my OPEN.BTC leave some gateway into my BTC-Wallet-address?

OK, Asset-Explorer Shows, that 70 OPEN.BTC are in existence. Will ask ronny for the address, maybe I'm missing something.
However this whole thing should be made clear and easy to understand. I'm a regular lurker since 2013 and consider myself not as dumb as my nick suggests 

You're right, it should, but since 2.0 is relatively young, that's because we're lacking this info. Maybe it's still too early to bring in exchanges. We're lacking proper documentation yet. Not enough support for those who might be interested and that can consequently take too much of CNX time (atm I doubt anyone else knows how to do it)

How did you find them ?

Here:
http://coinmarketcap.com/exchanges/volume/24-hour/

And then I mailed the small exchanges. C-CEX was the biggest one I emailed. Smaller exchanges have more to win by joining us and if we get just a few, our volume will grow quite a bit and we could then targer slightly bigger exchanges.

It seems however he couldn't get past the fact he still needed the cold/hot wallet to be used. And because of that he assumes there's no difference in using BitShares or not.

Ok so I sent a pm to Stan, Xeroc, Ronny and KenCode. Xeroc because he's usually able to help, KenCode and Stand because they know how to pitch. I only got a reply from Xeroc and he was too busy so this was my attempt at explaining them this.

Note: BitMex exchange also wants some info.


I'll copy paste the convo below.


[21:23:01] C-CEX.com: Hello!
[21:23:07] Akado Sang: Hey, thanks for the quick reply!
[21:24:16] Akado Sang: I contacted C-CEX about the possibility of the exchange looking into joining OpenLedger, giving the advantages it offers. Was told to add this account on skype, apparently to debate over that matter maybe
[21:24:48] Akado Sang: Do you want me to copy the original email?
[21:25:06] C-CEX.com: Ok. Explain it in short and simple form please What is it?
[21:25:41] Akado Sang: Thanks for the opportunity. OpenLedger can be considered a Decentralized Exchange Network which runs on top of BitShares 2.0
[21:26:11] C-CEX.com: what is bitshares?
[21:26:37] Akado Sang: It's mainly known as a "coin" but it's a financial platform running on the blockchain, where smart contracts can be made
[21:27:08] Akado Sang: Can I share a few links with you with info? You might understand it better
[21:27:43] Akado Sang: https://bitshares.org/ (don't forget to check the technology section)
[21:27:55] Akado Sang: https://www.openledger.info/
[21:28:51] Akado Sang: And there's even a referral program, where anyone can earn based on each user they refer to the network. Naturally exchanges tend to be the biggest referrers and earn more from this. They earn from each account created, for life https://bitshares.org/referral-program/
[21:30:27] C-CEX.com: oh, looks like ethereum
[21:30:28] Akado Sang: I hope this is not too overwhelming. If I may I will mention a few advantages:
- Decentralization. This means the exchange cannot be taken down or hacked like Gox.
- Transparency. Can be audited at all times. Giving it's costumers confidence about the platform they're using
- Shared Order Books. With other exchanges using the same platform, which means more market depth and liquidity
[21:31:26] Akado Sang: Yes! If we could compare both, I'd say Ethereum is like Android and BitShares like Apple. Not in the "superior" way. It's just that with Ethereum you can do more stuff. However with BitShares you can do fewer stuff, but more optimized and scalable with high performance
[21:32:48] C-CEX.com: I understand words, but I don't understand a sense
[21:32:54] C-CEX.com: Can you explain simplier?
[21:33:59] C-CEX.com: with high performance :)That I like:)
[21:35:21] Akado Sang: For example, BitShares might be more limited on some fields, meaning, it "might" not be as versatile for some stuff. But scales better and has an overall better performance. Imagine both like programming languages! Some might be harder to use/learn but are faster and have better performance. Others might allow you to program more stuff more easily but don't have such a good performance!
[21:35:48] Akado Sang: Well, if you're interested in performance you might want to check this page! https://bitshares.org/technology/industrial-performance-and-scalability/
[21:35:54] C-CEX.com: Ok. I see. but what it can do for c-cex?
[21:35:59] C-CEX.com: how it can be used?
[21:37:58] Akado Sang: Basically what we're trying to do is get more exchanges to join our network. The question you might want to know is, how does C-CEX benefit right? You get to provide a better service to your costumers.
Let's assume C-CEX has joined the network and now runs on the BitShares platform! I'll try to summarize the advantages.
[21:38:33] C-CEX.com: What "join the network" mean?
[21:39:01] Akado Sang: Join OpenLedger which aims to be a Decentralized Exchange Network. Meaning multiple exchanges operating on the BitShares Exchange
[21:39:12] Akado Sang: *means joinning OpenLedger
[21:39:26] Akado Sang: I'll try to summarize the advantages and how your business can profit from this
[21:40:04] C-CEX.com: Does that mean that I have to keep user coins balance in bitshares?
[21:41:10] Akado Sang: Well no, they keep their coins themselves! For example, as an exchange, what you give users to trade (or what most of the exchanges do) are IOUs right? It's a token representing for example a Bitcoin while in fact you hold the bitcoins on your hot/cold wallet
[21:41:57] C-CEX.com: I don't get your point at all
[21:42:03] C-CEX.com: Looks like non-sense
[21:42:12] C-CEX.com: I don't understand what are you trying to offer
[21:42:25] Akado Sang: Ok let me finish please
[21:44:23] Akado Sang: Basically all the assets of the user's would be held on the blockchain. Safe from hackers because each user would have the private keys for their own balances. Meaning C-CEX couldn't be hacked and loose costumer funds.
[21:45:03] Akado Sang: Plus they would get to use the features provided by BitShares Blockchain like multi sig, 2fA which is currently being worked on, Prediction Markets, Bond Markets, etc
[21:45:15] Akado Sang: You would provide a safer and more transparent service
[21:45:41] Akado Sang: and you would have Shared Order Books. This would increase market depth and liquidity which is what the traders seek in order to trade
[21:46:15] C-CEX.com: so they can redeem their funds without exchange?
[21:47:17] C-CEX.com: sorry, I still don't get how it works
[21:47:30] C-CEX.com: You must be not aware about how normal exchange work.
[21:47:42] C-CEX.com: This is completely incompatible with what you are talking about
[21:48:18] Akado Sang: What do you mean redeem funds? can you be more specific when you say "incompatible"?
[21:49:05] C-CEX.com: Ok. Users deposit / trade / withdraw.
[21:49:08] C-CEX.com: Let's say DOGE.
[21:49:15] C-CEX.com: How it will work with your platform?
[21:50:44] Akado Sang: Essetially C-CEX would act more like a bridge. I want to deposit DOGE on my C-CEX account. I send DOGE to your deposit address and in exchange, you credit my account with the respective amount of C-CEX.DOGE. Which could be traded against many other assets and exchanges assets AND more importantly, market pegged assets like USD and EUR to hedge against volatility. I forgot to mention that
[21:51:14] Akado Sang: Instead of the IOUs being on your database, they would be secured on the blockchain
[21:51:33] Akado Sang: allowing people to trade them against many other assets.
[21:52:18] Akado Sang: We currently have OPENBTC as OpenLedger's BTC. Imagine you join and other 3 more exchanges join. All of them trading OPENBTC. You get a shared order book with more market depth and liquidity which all traders seek
[21:52:36] Akado Sang: or you can just create your custom asset too if you prefer
[21:53:43] Akado Sang: and you also profit from each account via https://bitshares.org/referral-program/
[21:53:55] C-CEX.com: I still can't understand how it works
[21:54:05] C-CEX.com: I don't want to send users elsewhere
[21:54:29] Akado Sang: You won't send user's elsewhere, you still have your own users, they still use your exchange. Imagine OpenLedger being the backend while your C-CEX website being the front end
[21:54:51] C-CEX.com: how do they withdraw?
[21:55:41] Akado Sang: Through you or any other fiat on/off ramp connected to the network. But if they're using your exchange website, most likely they will withdraw through you, only if you allow other bridges on your site
[21:56:03] Akado Sang: I'll send you an instant exchange working with us, hopefully you can see how it works https://metaexchange.info/
[21:56:11] C-CEX.com: then what's the difference?
[21:56:18] C-CEX.com: Deposit on me, trade on me, withdraw on me...
[21:57:08] Akado Sang: While they trade and held the funds on your exchange, the assets representing their funds, are secured by the blockchain. Not to mention there are also smartcoins pegged to the price of EUR, USD, CNY to hedge against volatility.
[21:57:49] Akado Sang: You could also provide them with other features we are developing like the ones on the "Technology" section. Multi signature, Bond Markets, Prediction Markets, etc
[21:58:07] C-CEX.com: they will withdraw through youSo I will have to maintain the same doge wallet. hot and cold.
[21:58:09] C-CEX.com: no difference
[21:59:53] Akado Sang: Ok. This is my fault I'm not being able to make you understand.. Would you mind if I have a dev come here in a few days and explain it better? And I'm really sorry for taking your time.
[22:01:01] Akado Sang: I just can't explain it any better. I'm don't really possess the technical knowledge. I'm just trying to get in contact with the exchanges. Do you mind me having the devs adding you do explain it better? If you can spare the time please
[22:01:10] C-CEX.com: Yes, please.
[22:01:14] Akado Sang: Thank you very much. Thanks for taking the time.
[22:01:26] C-CEX.com: I need 1. 2. 3.
[22:01:28] C-CEX.com: how it works
[22:01:32] C-CEX.com: step by step
[22:01:43] C-CEX.com: All you say is not compatible with how real exchange work.
[22:01:53] Akado Sang: Okay. Mind if I copy/paste this convo on our forum? So it's easier to understand?
[22:02:01] C-CEX.com: Real exchange has to have wallets running online to make deposits/withdrawals possible.
[22:02:12] C-CEX.com: sure
[22:02:46] Akado Sang: Okay. Once again, thank you for your time and the opportunity. We'll be in touch it was a pleasure.
[22:03:13] C-CEX.com: thanks.

Luckily, he was kind enough to give me another chance! I really couldn't explain his last question about how he still needs a hot/cold wallet to deposit/withdraw coins so that doesn't change anything. I mentioned previously he would act as a bridge.. but honestly that question caught me off guard and I can't really explain it. I tried to emphasize the advantages. Maybe I didn't do it simple enough.


At least i had some initiative but I admit I'm not the best explaining this. I did the best I could. Now I think he's right. I might not be the best person to explain but if I couldn't explain and he couldn't understand, maybe it isn't so simple as it should be? We don't have a 1, 2 ,3 step guide on how it would work, etc. Well, we learn with our mistakes.

Atm I feel like that guy who screws up with the girls he likes but I tried, I'm at ease.

Pitch men @Stan and @kenCode please advise. I know you're really at ease explaining and pitching stuff. So, what did I do wrong, what could I have done better?
@ccedk Ronny did I miss anything? Would you have handled it differently?
 

Quote from: Akado on January 09, 2016, 05:50:24 pm

Quote from: abit on January 09, 2016, 05:40:25 pm

So we'll get merchants. How about users?

Merchants can be the users, immediately converting to bitAssets, however I wouldn't bet much on that. It's awesome they can accept that as a form of payment but for that, someone must be willing to pay using those bitassets. To get people to use them would cost a fortune in marketing and education

I think the mobile wallets will help most with getting more users.
 
The biggest thing that concerns me is the smartcoins' pegs. But, with btsbots and what Blocktrades is working on right now, I have high hopes that In the coming weeks our smartcoins will get much tighter. I really don't know of any other way to make our smartcoins any better.
 
Smartcoins and POS go hand in hand IMO, it's the main thing Smartcoins should be used for. Buying stuff and not worrying so much about volatility.

It just needs to get rolling and the peg will (or should) naturally form. It's like you said, at the beggining we just need to buy some stuff here and there and try not to worry much about the peg. As soon as they have utility which they will have now, thing should go into place. btw check your pms

So we'll get merchants. How about users?

Merchants can be the users, immediately converting to bitAssets, however I wouldn't bet much on that. It's awesome they can accept that as a form of payment but for that, someone must be willing to pay using those bitassets. To get people to use them would cost a fortune in marketing and education

Whats the use of dark pools if not taking unfair advantage in a market? Are hidden markets really part of price discovery? I for sure dont know

Well, first, it gives people more privacy which is something they care about.
Second, if you have someone manipulating a market, you can have these so it's more difficult for them.

Maybe it would make price discovery more difficult because we have low liquidity atm, but it could something to consider. I'm just throwing out ideas that could complement or be complemented by the stealth feature.