0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
However, we're going to see constant FUD about BTS being inflationary at a rate of 6.3% an annum.
This means that bitshares is now self funding. It can pay for its continued development, for marketing, and to recruit more developers, once the original I3 funds are gone. No matter what happens, bitshares can continue on and support itself.The maximum possible inflation rate is 6.3% for next year. (50 BTS a block, for every block for a year is 157,680,000 BTS a year. 157,680,000 / 2.5 billion is 6.3% inflation).However, that is the MAXMIUM. In order for that to occur, there must be 101 paid delegates all receiving max pay rate. Thats not going to happen. What is actually going to happen is that voters are only actually going to vote for paid delegates for the dev team, marketing delegate, and a few others who are showing that they are adding value to bitshares. So in reality, with maybe 20 or so paid delegates, inflation will be about 1-2% a year.
Also, everyone should remember, if there is no company that is paying dev salaries, and everything is being paid for by the blockchain itself, then there is nothing that any government agency can attack!
The key here I think is that dilution eliminates the need for centralized cash on hand to pay salaries and business expenses. With burnt fees and dilution to cover costs, the shareholders directly hold all the value of the network. They directly lose value to cover expenses, and they directly gain value when fees are paid and when the network grows.
Shares in a company are, literally, issuing of company equity in order to grow.Every single publically traded company in the world has issued stock in order to get money in order to grow. Thats what stock is.Tons of companies continually issue more stock every year in order to fuel growth. Every company in the world that gives its employees stock options or stock is inflating its share supply in order to hire talent, in order to grow.An increasing share supply is the *normal* state of companies. Normal, every day companies that you see listed on the stock exchanges.That said, yes, of course we would like for the supply of bitshares to eventually be shrinking! Most companies would love to reach a state where they are able to buy back more shares than they issue, and reduce share counts overtime. This is the goal once we become big, and the amount of dilution needed to grow is small because the market cap is big, and shares are being burned due to transaction fees, etc. We want to reach that point eventually. But for now, it is better to inflate a little to grow fast, than to not inflate and grow slowly or not be able to pay for developers.
I suspect that fees will outpace dilution well before the end of the rapid growth phase. There will be a lot of ecosystem growth from peripheral businesses that are self funding without dilution, like gateways.Bitcoin doesn't have the feature set to reach a wide market, but looking at its growth dynamics with the businesses that have sprung up around it is encouraging.
I think what you're saying is only right during the growth phase of the company, while you are still attracting new users. It's sort of like a ponzi scheme; it doesn't work if you don't keep having new people (money) come. Once this is a steady-state ecosystem inflation will simply be draining people's money because the share price is not rising enough to counteract it. I can't help but thinking I'm right because no real company operates on an inflation model.
Edit: Troglodactyl, just read your post, I think we agree.I think what you're saying is only right during the growth phase of the company, while you are still attracting new users. It's sort of like a ponzi scheme; it doesn't work if you don't keep having new people (money) come. Once this is a steady-state ecosystem inflation will simply be draining people's money because the share price is not rising enough to counteract it. I can't help but thinking I'm right because no real company operates on an inflation model. Investors want money from customers, not themselves. They want to maximize profit....With that said, I suppose at that steady-state point we don't need many marketers/devs/janitors etc., and we will be able to maintain the network with just transaction fees.
Quote from: teenagecheese on November 09, 2014, 02:36:17 pmAll this is great, but I feel like for shares in a company, inflation (dilution) is only successful as a short term solution. Continuous inflation may be okay for a currency (which is a whole other conversation), but is it sustainable for a company?I would hope that ultimately everything can be paid for via transaction fees or some other mechanism. That's what VISA and Mastercard do, right? How else do they make money? I wonder what transaction volume this would require.I actually think this is the opposite.When the company is small, inflation-pay is the *LEAST* effective. It takes much more inflation to pay a delegate a fair salary. When the company has a very large market cap with high liquidity, a 1% inflation-pay delegate could be earning $1 million per year. We would, of course, need much less than 1% of inflation in that case.This is why I stress that we use AGS funds to grow our market cap as fast as possible, so we can sustain inflation reasonably and responsibly:https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10845#msg142799Keep in mind that we only elect delegates that increase the value of the company many times more than the rate at which the dilution devaluing each share. This will only get easier the bigger we are.
All this is great, but I feel like for shares in a company, inflation (dilution) is only successful as a short term solution. Continuous inflation may be okay for a currency (which is a whole other conversation), but is it sustainable for a company?I would hope that ultimately everything can be paid for via transaction fees or some other mechanism. That's what VISA and Mastercard do, right? How else do they make money? I wonder what transaction volume this would require.
Also seeing this statement saying there might be up to 8% pa dilution of bts. Assuming this is incorrect, but can't find the authoritative statement about this
News letter has replaced this. Pr coming with launch of new wallet
What is the purpose of this ? If it is for a mass PR release we should dress it up a lot. The merger is really cool and a world first. We can get a lot of eyes on it if we choose. But this format is not PR style. If you want a Press Release I am happy to write one and get it out.
BitShares X rebrands itself as BitShares; adopts greater scopeIn a controversial move the founders of BitShares have decided to combine features formally divided among multiple competing systems including BitShares X, VOTE, DNS, and all other future features they can conceive under a single Decentralized Autonomous Company (DAC) that will go by BitShares.BitShares X which was originally designed to be a single decentralized exchange trading in collateralized derivatives of major currencies will join forces with domain name auctioning and voting applications. These currency derivatives known as BitAssets such as BitUSD and BitGLD have all of the properties of Bitcoin with the price stability of the underlying asset and are considered the killer app of the BitShares ecosystem. Smart Contracts with turing complete scripting environment has been added to the BitShares roadmap to facilitate growth and prototyping of new features. This feature combined with BitAssets should give Ethereum some serious competition in the smart contract market.Until recently the BitShares ecosystem was known for promoting many competing block chains (DACs) each with their own development team. Each DAC would have had its own variation on BitUSD and would have competed for the same users and market cap. This setup was designed to promote decentralization and robustness, but in reality it meant that the development team was fractured and divided against itself. Under the new arrangement the development teams behind BitShares DNS, VOTE, and X have combined forces to focus on a single unified product.Similar to corporate mergers, the result of combining forces is the elimination of redundant marketing, development, testing, and support resources. The developers have prepared a roadmap that would gradually introduce new features to BitShares.To align incentives and bring the communities together BTSX has decided to give a two year vesting stake to people who had a stake in BitShares PTS, DNS, and VOTE as well as recognize those who gave funds to support the BitShares ecosystem. In total BTS will “air drop” 7% PTS, 7% AGS, 3% VOTE, and 3% DNS. This air drop is not a buyout or merger but a no strings attached gift to these communities to encourage them to contribute to BTSX rather than their own competitors. This air drop will be made based upon ownership as of midnight UTC. Users should remove all PTS and DNS from exchanges prior the air drop deadline. The leads of VOTE and DNS have already decided to join the BitShares bandwagon. PTS and AGS will continue in their role and 3rd parties such as BitShares Music, BitShares Play among a few others still intend to airdrop on these communities in recognition of their role in bootstrapping the BitShares ecosystem and the bitshares toolkit. BitShares X owners will simply download an upgrade and the BTSX block chain will become the BitShares block chain and be known on exchanges as BTS. Owners of PTS, VOTE, and DNS will be able to import their wallets to receiving their vesting stake. The core BitShares team behind the development of the BitShares toolkit has committed not to compete against itself, but instead to focus on making BTS the best system it can be and will have their undivided support. This marks a major turning point in the development of BitShares and is potentially a game changer in the crypto-currency market space. FAQ:BTSX will become BTS and will be the same blockchain, BTSX will remain liquid and trading will not be interrupted. Exchanges are not expected to honor the November 5th snapshot because the positions will not be liquid, you should remove all DNS and PTS from exchanges prior to November 5th. The combined client with rebranding to BTS will be released toward the end of NovemberPTS, AGS, VOTE and DNS stakes will vest linearly over 2 years, meaning that each day users will get to claim some of their stake. BTSX will not have a vesting period.BitAssets such as BitUSD / BitGLD should be unaffected User names allocated in DNS will not be migrated to BTSX PTS will continue to circulate and trade; however, without I3 planning any future snapshots its value will be based upon the speculative value of 3rd party DACs such as Music, Play, and others. PTS block intervals will probably grow significantly and mining may stop all together. PTS is maintained by Testz and not I3. A new blockchain "DevShares" will be used for testing the upgrade of BTS and future hard forks as well as experimental features and economic experiments. This blockchain will be a 40/40/20 snapshot AGS/PTS/X taken on November 5th. DevShares will not be considered a "safe store of value" but non-the-less will have value for those wishing to test their smart contracts or BTS integration on a low-value chain. Details on DevShares will be provided over the coming month.PTS / AGS holders will effectively receive 20% stake in all PAST and FUTURE blockchain ideas built by the Invictus team through this air drop, plus a much larger cut in DevShares, Play, and Music among others. There is too much to cover in a single press release, so I hope to have the press release focus on the high level "good" and then direct users to a wiki page with the FAQ details. Please post any unanswered questions you have here.
if exchanges are not expected to honor the November 5th snapshot,why Bter keep saying they will redeem BTS for their customers?Thanks
I figured it was some esoteric relation to a turing machine. Just another buzz word with little to add over just saying "we're adding a scripting lanuage" to the client. It that statement is incorrect, pls explain the difference between "turing complete" scripting and just scripting.
Those you might name that don't are rather obscure and are not used for general programming tasks.
Quote from: Thom on October 26, 2014, 11:14:46 pmI figured it was some esoteric relation to a turing machine. Just another buzz word with little to add over just saying "we're adding a scripting lanuage" to the client. It that statement is incorrect, pls explain the difference between "turing complete" scripting and just scripting.Touring complete has more features. For example a scripting language without loops is not touring complete. By definition a script is said to be Turing complete if it can simulate any single-tape Turing machine.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness
I think the paragraph about turing-complete scripting and ethereum should be removed. It's off topic for the rebranding.
What will the daily vesting rate be?
Quote from: pc on October 27, 2014, 10:22:29 amI think the paragraph about turing-complete scripting and ethereum should be removed. It's off topic for the rebranding.Any mention of Ethereum should definitely be removed. You do not want to mention your competitor in a press release. It only gives them legitimacy as the leading contender.
The draft statement reads well enough for those familiar with BTS and related DACs, but I think more opportunity could be taken to promote to others less familiar why they should come join the ecosystem.
This air drop is not a buyout or merger but a no strings attached gift to these communities to encourage them to contribute to BTSX rather than their own competitors. This air drop will be made based upon ownership as of midnight UTC.
Btw, more than just a few people see the lack of turing completeness as a good thing. Turing-complete languages make it possible to do virtually anything - including everything evil.
DevShares will not be considered a "safe store of value" but non-the-less will have value for those wishing to test their smart contracts or BTS integration on a low-value chain.
Quote from: Thom on October 26, 2014, 10:56:12 pmBeen hearing this phrase turing complete mentioned lately, what does it mean?From wikipedia: Turing completeness, named after Alan Turing, is significant in that every plausible design for a computing device so far advanced can be emulated by a universal Turing machine — an observation that has become known as the Church-Turing thesis. Thus, a machine that can act as a universal Turing machine can, in principle, perform any calculation that any other programmable computer is capable of. However, this has nothing to do with the effort required to write a program for the machine, the time it may take for the machine to perform the calculation, or any abilities the machine may possess that are unrelated to computation. While truly Turing-complete machines are very likely physically impossible, as they require unlimited storage, Turing completeness is often loosely attributed to physical machines or programming languages that would be universal if they had unlimited storage. All modern computers are Turing-complete in this sense.I don't know how you can be more non-technical than that except by saying "turing complete means 'able to answer computable problem given enough time and space'".
Been hearing this phrase turing complete mentioned lately, what does it mean?
BitShares X rebrands itself as BitShares; adopts greater scopeA new blockchain "DevShares" will be used for testing the upgrade of BTS and future hard forks as well as experimental features and economic experiments. This blockchain will be a 40/40/20 snapshot AGS/PTS/X taken on November 5th. DevShares will not be considered a "safe store of value" but non-the-less will have value for those wishing to test their smart contracts or BTS integration on a low-value chain. Details on DevShares will be provided over the coming month.
Quote from: James212 on October 26, 2014, 11:44:02 pmQuote from: MeTHoDx on October 26, 2014, 10:45:38 pmCan you post a Google docs link please. Method, would be very interested to see your version. If this is a wide press release, I see a number of areas for improvement. Ill be on Mumble. Yup, I could definitely improve this but I need the Google docs link bytemaster referred to in the OP.
Quote from: MeTHoDx on October 26, 2014, 10:45:38 pmCan you post a Google docs link please. Method, would be very interested to see your version. If this is a wide press release, I see a number of areas for improvement. Ill be on Mumble.
Can you post a Google docs link please.
This air drop will be made based upon ownership as of midnight UTC.
BitShares X rebrands itself as BitShares; adopts greater scopeIn a controversial move the founders of BitShares have decided to combine features formally divided among multiple competing systems including BitShares X, VOTE, DNS, and all other future features they can conceive under a single Decentralized Autonomous Company (DAC) that will go by BitShares.BitShares X which(,) was originally designed to be a single decentralized exchange trading in collateralized derivatives of major currencies(,) will join forces with domain name auctioning and voting applications. These currency derivatives known as BitAssets such as BitUSD and BitGLD have all of the properties of Bitcoin with the price stability of the underlying asset and are considered the killer app of the BitShares ecosystem. Smart Contracts with turing complete scripting environment has been added to the BitShares roadmap to facilitate growth and prototyping of new features. This feature combined with BitAssets should give Ethereum some serious competition in the smart contract market.Until recently the BitShares ecosystem was known for promoting many competing block chains (DACs) each with their own development team. Each DAC would have had its own variation on BitUSD and would have competed for the same users and market cap. This setup was designed to promote decentralization and robustness, but in reality it meant that the development team was fractured and divided against itself. Under the new arrangement the development teams behind BitShares DNS, VOTE, and X have combined forces to focus on a single unified product.Similar to corporate mergers, the result of combining forces is the elimination of redundant marketing, development, testing, and support resources. The developers have prepared a roadmap that would gradually introduce new features to BitShares.To align incentives and bring the communities together BTSX has decided to give a two year vesting stake to people who had a stake in BitShares PTS, DNS, and VOTE as well as recognize those who gave funds to support the BitShares ecosystem. In total BTS will “air drop” 7% PTS, 7% AGS, 3% VOTE, and 3% DNS. This air drop is not a buyout or merger but a no strings attached gift to these communities to encourage them to contribute to BTSX rather than their own competitors. This air drop will be made based upon ownership as of midnight UTC. Users should remove all PTS and DNS from exchanges prior (to) the air drop deadline. The leads of VOTE and DNS have already decided to join the BitShares bandwagon. PTS and AGS will continue in their role(s) and 3rd parties such as BitShares Music, BitShares Play among a few others still intend to airdrop on these communities in recognition of their role in bootstrapping the BitShares ecosystem and the bitshares toolkit. BitShares X owners will simply download an upgrade and the BTSX block chain will become the BitShares block chain and be known on exchanges as BTS. Owners of PTS, VOTE, and DNS will be able to import their wallets to receiv(e) their vesting stake. The core BitShares team behind the development of the BitShares toolkit has committed not to compete against itself, but instead to focus on making BTS the best system it can be and will have their undivided support. This marks a major turning point in the development of BitShares and is potentially a game changer in the crypto-currency market space. FAQ:BTSX will become BTS and will be the same blockchain, BTSX will remain liquid and trading will not be interrupted. Exchanges are not expected to honor the November 5th snapshot because the positions will not be liquid, you should remove all DNS and PTS from exchanges prior to November 5th. The combined client with rebranding to BTS will be released toward the end of NovemberPTS, AGS, VOTE and DNS stakes will vest linearly over 2 years, meaning that each day users will get to claim some of their stake. BTSX will not have a vesting period.BitAssets such as BitUSD / BitGLD should be unaffected User names allocated in DNS will not be migrated to BTSX PTS will continue to circulate and trade; however, without I3 planning any future snapshots(,) its value will be based upon the speculative value of 3rd party DACs such as Music, Play, and others. PTS block intervals will probably grow significantly and mining may stop all together. PTS is maintained by Testz and not I3. A new blockchain "DevShares" will be used for testing the upgrade of BTS and future hard forks as well as experimental features and economic experiments. This blockchain will be a 40/40/20 snapshot AGS/PTS/X taken on November 5th. DevShares will not be considered a "safe store of value" but non-the-less will have value for those wishing to test their smart contracts or BTS integration on a low-value chain. Details on DevShares will be provided over the coming month.PTS / AGS holders will effectively receive 20% stake in all PAST and FUTURE blockchain ideas built by the Invictus team through this air drop, plus a much larger cut in DevShares, Play, and Music among others. There is too much to cover in a single press release, so I hope to have the press release focus on the high level "good" and then direct users to a wiki page with the FAQ details. Please post any unanswered questions you have here.
A new blockchain "DevShares" will be used for testing the upgrade of BTS and future hard forks as well as experimental features and economic experiments. This blockchain will be a 40/40/20 snapshot AGS/PTS/X taken on November 5th. DevShares will not be considered a "safe store of value" but non-the-less will have value for those wishing to test their smart contracts or BTS integration on a low-value chain. Details on DevShares will be provided over the coming month.
Can you confirm that shorts do not need to be covered prior to the upgrade?