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if the price of gold rockets 50% tomorrow and I want sell it I can't.At 2% max settlement per day the chances are other gold speculators will take the 2% for themselves leaving every other bitgold holder with a smartcoin pegged to nothing.
Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 03, 2015, 02:41:14 amWe are we changing from 20% max settlement to 2% ?With a supply of $115000 this means the community can only settle $2300 If I or someone else settles $2300 per day it means nobody else will be able to setlle at all which doesn't seem right. everyone said CNY feed price was wrong which has been fixed so what's the reason for a 90% drop in daily settlements?Leave it at 20% where it is. @bytemaster did you mean to set it at 20% or 2%?Jonny this dubious, never existing, highly unprofitable business was non existing even in its heyday [do not trust bitcrab, alt or anybody else who was telling you otherwise, or how dangerous it was for the shorts or how much the shorts can lose by it]and 'yes' the design has always been aiming at about 1% max force settlement per day.
We are we changing from 20% max settlement to 2% ?With a supply of $115000 this means the community can only settle $2300 If I or someone else settles $2300 per day it means nobody else will be able to setlle at all which doesn't seem right. everyone said CNY feed price was wrong which has been fixed so what's the reason for a 90% drop in daily settlements?Leave it at 20% where it is. @bytemaster did you mean to set it at 20% or 2%?
Quote from: alt on December 02, 2015, 11:23:33 pmQuote from: theoretical on December 02, 2015, 09:57:13 pmCreated 1.10.21, documented how I created it: https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/wiki/Howto-propose-committee-actionsthanks, I think we need to change this for all asset right?do we must do it one by one?I have the same opinion. We have to update all smartcoins, especially USD.
Quote from: theoretical on December 02, 2015, 09:57:13 pmCreated 1.10.21, documented how I created it: https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/wiki/Howto-propose-committee-actionsthanks, I think we need to change this for all asset right?do we must do it one by one?
Created 1.10.21, documented how I created it: https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/wiki/Howto-propose-committee-actions
Quote from: alt on December 02, 2015, 12:11:19 pmQuote from: xeroc on December 02, 2015, 09:41:39 amWe are not so sure about this any more. @roadscape did some analysis of the code:Quotegenerally all percent figures in graphene are based on this:#define GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT 10000so if the max_force_settlement_vol is 2,000 that would suggest 20%also I see this:#define GRAPHENE_DEFAULT_FORCE_SETTLEMENT_MAX_VOLUME (20* GRAPHENE_1_PERCENT)@bytemasterI ask for correct this parameter to 2% before reenable setltementbecause if we enable settlement with parameter 20%, it's enough to attrack an attack.the commitee don't agree me without your command @bytemasterplease give an inputIt was always supposed to be 2% in the first place not 20% There is a lot less opportunity to abuse the system if you an only force cover 2% of it a day.
Quote from: xeroc on December 02, 2015, 09:41:39 amWe are not so sure about this any more. @roadscape did some analysis of the code:Quotegenerally all percent figures in graphene are based on this:#define GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT 10000so if the max_force_settlement_vol is 2,000 that would suggest 20%also I see this:#define GRAPHENE_DEFAULT_FORCE_SETTLEMENT_MAX_VOLUME (20* GRAPHENE_1_PERCENT)@bytemasterI ask for correct this parameter to 2% before reenable setltementbecause if we enable settlement with parameter 20%, it's enough to attrack an attack.the commitee don't agree me without your command @bytemasterplease give an input
We are not so sure about this any more. @roadscape did some analysis of the code:Quotegenerally all percent figures in graphene are based on this:#define GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT 10000so if the max_force_settlement_vol is 2,000 that would suggest 20%also I see this:#define GRAPHENE_DEFAULT_FORCE_SETTLEMENT_MAX_VOLUME (20* GRAPHENE_1_PERCENT)@bytemaster
generally all percent figures in graphene are based on this:#define GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT 10000so if the max_force_settlement_vol is 2,000 that would suggest 20%also I see this:#define GRAPHENE_DEFAULT_FORCE_SETTLEMENT_MAX_VOLUME (20* GRAPHENE_1_PERCENT)
According to the code:Code: [Select]/** percentage fields are fixed point with a denominator of 10,000 */ #define GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT 10000 #define GRAPHENE_1_PERCENT (GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT/100) Before launch I went through every place in the witness_node where percentages are used and standardized most of them to use GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT. I just now checked the code which handles the max force settlement, and it definitely uses these constants. So 2000 definitely represents 20%.You can see that it is currently set to 2000 for BitUSD (and I don't doubt for the other assets as well):Code: [Select]>>> get_asset USD{ ... "issuer": "1.2.0"... "bitasset_data_id": "2.4.21"}>>> get_object 2.4.21{... "maximum_force_settlement_volume": 2000,...}I can state with certainty that it is currently 20%. It is possible to change with a committee proposal of asset_update_operation.Great care should be taken on any such proposal to ensure the issuer permissions and flags have the same values as before.
/** percentage fields are fixed point with a denominator of 10,000 */ #define GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT 10000 #define GRAPHENE_1_PERCENT (GRAPHENE_100_PERCENT/100)
>>> get_asset USD{ ... "issuer": "1.2.0"... "bitasset_data_id": "2.4.21"}>>> get_object 2.4.21{... "maximum_force_settlement_volume": 2000,...}
Quote from: alt on December 02, 2015, 12:11:19 pmthe commitee don't agree me without your command @bytemasterIt's not about a command ... it's about knowing for certainty if it is 2% or 20% .. if it really was 20% .. then most would definitely agree with you!
the commitee don't agree me without your command @bytemaster
Quote from: merivercap on December 02, 2015, 04:48:18 amQuote from: bitcrab on December 02, 2015, 03:35:40 amit's my fault not to pay enough attention to the force settlement feature in 2.0, you have the opportunity because transwiser kept on selling BitCNY at 1 CNY to the market in past. the force settlement feature bring additional risks to the shorter, the result is that BitCNY will worth more than 1 CNY, with a variable premium.merchant/customers need a cryptocurrency that has fixed value, they just need a simple value transfer media, nothing more, to calculate/check/split the premium need to pay more time/energy/management cost, a BitCNY with variable premium added to 1 CNY is not what the really need.BitCNY has been a good payment media for merchant/customers, there have been merchant(BTC38), customers(btc38 users), acceptance dealer(transwiser), now the introduction of the force settle make all the above have no space to stay and only speculators will enjoy.market need speculators, but if there are only speculators in the market, speculators will find no chance to make profit. I agree with you and I'm glad to see that it worked well as a payment media for merchants/customers in China. I don't think it's much different here. That's precisely how I envision bitCash to work. very different, one important principle for the design of a currency system is to balance the responsibility, power, and benefit of each role in the market. you can check the design of DAI for reference, there are also force settlement there, but the rule is that the user who request force settlement will pay penalty according to the collateral ratio of the short position that will be settled, the higher the collateral ratio, the higher the penalty.this rule make a better balance. and shorter can enter to the market without many worry, and it is possible to peg.the current rule in BTS2.0 do too much good to bitcny holders, but do bad to shorters, the balance is destroyed.to peg is also important, what merchant/customers need is a payment media with fixed value, security and convenience, in bts1.0, transwiser can help BitCNY to realize this, but now, there's no chance for transwiser to do the same.
Quote from: bitcrab on December 02, 2015, 03:35:40 amit's my fault not to pay enough attention to the force settlement feature in 2.0, you have the opportunity because transwiser kept on selling BitCNY at 1 CNY to the market in past. the force settlement feature bring additional risks to the shorter, the result is that BitCNY will worth more than 1 CNY, with a variable premium.merchant/customers need a cryptocurrency that has fixed value, they just need a simple value transfer media, nothing more, to calculate/check/split the premium need to pay more time/energy/management cost, a BitCNY with variable premium added to 1 CNY is not what the really need.BitCNY has been a good payment media for merchant/customers, there have been merchant(BTC38), customers(btc38 users), acceptance dealer(transwiser), now the introduction of the force settle make all the above have no space to stay and only speculators will enjoy.market need speculators, but if there are only speculators in the market, speculators will find no chance to make profit. I agree with you and I'm glad to see that it worked well as a payment media for merchants/customers in China. I don't think it's much different here. That's precisely how I envision bitCash to work.
it's my fault not to pay enough attention to the force settlement feature in 2.0, you have the opportunity because transwiser kept on selling BitCNY at 1 CNY to the market in past. the force settlement feature bring additional risks to the shorter, the result is that BitCNY will worth more than 1 CNY, with a variable premium.merchant/customers need a cryptocurrency that has fixed value, they just need a simple value transfer media, nothing more, to calculate/check/split the premium need to pay more time/energy/management cost, a BitCNY with variable premium added to 1 CNY is not what the really need.BitCNY has been a good payment media for merchant/customers, there have been merchant(BTC38), customers(btc38 users), acceptance dealer(transwiser), now the introduction of the force settle make all the above have no space to stay and only speculators will enjoy.market need speculators, but if there are only speculators in the market, speculators will find no chance to make profit.
Quote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 05:34:27 pmQuote from: bytemaster on November 30, 2015, 11:52:16 pm@alt X% force settle per day is independent with each asset When I talk about prices I always think in FIAT prices. So USD per BTS or USD per BitUSD. I know this is the opposite of how many in crypto think in terms of their favorite token.Few understand the whole system. Many have discussed it, understood it, and since forgot it. We have to "re-learn" many times unless you live/breath it full time. http://cryptofresh.com/a/CNYMax force settle vol 2000Does 2000 mean 2% or 20%?2%
Quote from: bytemaster on November 30, 2015, 11:52:16 pm@alt X% force settle per day is independent with each asset When I talk about prices I always think in FIAT prices. So USD per BTS or USD per BitUSD. I know this is the opposite of how many in crypto think in terms of their favorite token.Few understand the whole system. Many have discussed it, understood it, and since forgot it. We have to "re-learn" many times unless you live/breath it full time. http://cryptofresh.com/a/CNYMax force settle vol 2000Does 2000 mean 2% or 20%?
@alt X% force settle per day is independent with each asset When I talk about prices I always think in FIAT prices. So USD per BTS or USD per BitUSD. I know this is the opposite of how many in crypto think in terms of their favorite token.Few understand the whole system. Many have discussed it, understood it, and since forgot it. We have to "re-learn" many times unless you live/breath it full time.
Quote from: mf-tzo on December 01, 2015, 12:11:00 pmafter 2 years of experimenting I think the best was the first and original rule..depending on demand for bitassets the bitusd could be at a discount or a premium..period..no expiration no SQP and shinny formulas..nothing..traders would short when bitasset was at premium and people would buy bitasset when in discount forcing the pegMerchants accepting bitusd as a form of payment would know that at some point their bitasset would worth more or less but at least there would be liquidity from traders and the risk for not beeing able to convert all their bitasset in fiat would be minimal..Now after 2 years we have no liquidity, no traders in the DEX nothing..anyway..I agree about SQP. Margin calls should only happen when they absolutely must (since it is destroying BTS when in undersupply), and therefore should be tied to whatever is the most liquid/accurate market values. SQP of 1 (fixed to price feed) makes most sense until internal markets are liquid enough."traders would short when bitasset was at premium and people would buy bitasset when in discount forcing the peg"That did not work. The very first bitshares (version 0.1 or something like that) tried this with no price feed or incentives to maintain peg, and price ran away very quickly. Why should I pay for something with no intrinsic value just because it has the label "USD" on it? I'll sell you 1000 maqifrsnwaUSD for 1000.forced settlement is both the "gold standard" and the "federal reserve." It is the "gold standard" since you can always redeem your smartcoin for the equivalent value in something else. It is the "federal reserve" since it incentivizes the destruction of smartcoins when supply exceeds demand such that value is maintained. What (fiat) currency in the world exists without either a "gold standard" or a "federal reserve?"Confession of a force-settler (before the GUI made it easy):I will confess that I was a forced-settler before the GUI came out. I was a force-settler because I spent the time to learn the system inside and out in order to test some bots for both smartcoins and UIA (I believe UIA with properly regulated KYC is the growth market for BTS). My bots know nothing about the underlying assets, they only know the market rules: Sell high, buy low, never sell an asset for less than it can be settled for, if you can buy an asset for less than it can be settled then buy the assets and settle. This behavior is rational, generates profit, and keeps BitShares working efficiently - so it is a win-win for everyone. I feel it is a "service" to the community. I probably settled 1-2k CNY since it started. No other market presented settlement opportunities. I did not know why CNY presented this opportunity; I guessed there was a larger supply of "whales" trying to gain leverage any way they can in risky ways.When I first heard of Transwiser, I was shocked at the business model (since it seemed like it would always lose money since 1 bitCNY> 1CNY) but also extremely impressed that they figured out to "beat the system" where I could not. The service was great for BTS and I was looking forward to them expanding to other currencies.When I heard about the price feed data inaccuracy, at first I felt bad but then realized that the error was in some thinking smartcoins were something they were not. See: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20375.0/topicseen.html Even if the feed was incorrect, all businesses must know that the feed is all that matters and build their business model off of that (or work to correct the feed).Now that we're almost through this "crisis," I think we're all stronger. Feeds are more accurate, people know what smartcoins are, and businesses know to research the system completely before building on top of it.
after 2 years of experimenting I think the best was the first and original rule..depending on demand for bitassets the bitusd could be at a discount or a premium..period..no expiration no SQP and shinny formulas..nothing..traders would short when bitasset was at premium and people would buy bitasset when in discount forcing the pegMerchants accepting bitusd as a form of payment would know that at some point their bitasset would worth more or less but at least there would be liquidity from traders and the risk for not beeing able to convert all their bitasset in fiat would be minimal..Now after 2 years we have no liquidity, no traders in the DEX nothing..anyway..
the rule should guarentee two thing:1. if I want to buy bitCNY, I can buy it at price 1.0 + premium2. if I want to sell bitCNY, I can sell it at price 1.0 - premiumand the premium should not too small, my suggest is more than 2%then market maker will give a better offer, with more small premium then we can buy/sell bitCNY at price 1.0 with small premium from the free wallet market.force settlement is a way to guarentee you can sell bitCNY at a floor price, so I think the price should set to * (1.0 - premium) CNY/bitCNYwhen the price of BTS is 0.02 CNY/BTS, witness should set settlement price to 0.02 / (1.0 - premium)on the other hand, force settlement will hurt shorters, because this force them sell BTS even when they have enough collatereal.so we should not encourage people use this, we can set the premium to 2% or more, as compensate for the one be settled.for all witness, if you approve my point, you can change the parameter at xeroc's price scriptsset discount to 1.02to avoid add aditional fee for bitCNY, you should change core_exchange_factor to 1.02 too
1. as a bitCNY holder, I think price floor means the minimal BTS I can buy with my bitCNY, it's BTS/CNYso if you want to price it with CNY/BTS, it should be called price ceilingso the settlement price should greater than real price we got from the exchange?2. you have set a volume limit, I think of course you want to protect some attack. but I think this volume limit is still too weak.may I ask you, do you belive current 0.02CNY/BTS is the real price of BTS? do you belive there are no manipulate?I think the price is totally unbeliveable, it's because of manipulate of couse.what I have seen is the whals can manipulate the price so easy, and keep the period so long.so I don't think the volume protect is enough.and if somebody ask force settlement my short position at this price, I can never accept it. so my choise is I'll never short more bitasset.we are lucky the whals don't read the whitepater carefully, if he know, he can force settlement all short position at such a long time.I want to ask all the BTS holders, do you accepet the deal? whals buy out all your BTS at such a price, 0.02CNY/BTSif the answer is no, never short, or this can happend very possible.Quote from: bytemaster on November 30, 2015, 11:52:16 pm@alt X% force settle per day is independent with each asset When I talk about prices I always think in FIAT prices. So USD per BTS or USD per BitUSD. I know this is the opposite of how many in crypto think in terms of their favorite token.Few understand the whole system. Many have discussed it, understood it, and since forgot it. We have to "re-learn" many times unless you live/breath it full time.
The premium should also decrease when BTS is rising & increase when BTS is falling in value I guess.
Quote from: Samupaha on December 01, 2015, 09:44:00 amCustomers use BitUSD because it provides them the convenience and freedom of a cryptocurrency, and has the lowest transfer fees of any other payment platform.The transfer fees are not as low now.Are we coming back to advertise BitShares as a payment platform? Haven't we argued that BitShares is mainly in exchange business?
Customers use BitUSD because it provides them the convenience and freedom of a cryptocurrency, and has the lowest transfer fees of any other payment platform.
The premium will get lower with higher liquidity but it will not stay constant over time.Dan and me, we think that the premium will be higher in times of high volatility in BTS .. and lower in times with less volatility
BitCNY play at least 2 roles in current ecosystem:A.a value transfer media/payment tool between merchant and users.B.a derivative played by investors/speculators.so when we ask "is the fact that 1 BitCNY worth more than 1 CNY pros or cons?", we should first define for which role we are talking about.unfortunately, I found "1 BitCNY worth more than 1 CNY" do good to role B, but hurt the role A.
Bottom line, the market can price all of the risks which are highest during low liquidity, and get lower as liquidity improves. Someone who steps up to provide liquidity can "trust" in that liquidity and offer a competitive price over those who must trust someone else to provide liquidity. Bottom line, someone should buy up a lot of BitCNY at a price above 1.0 and then turn around and provide liquidity in the range of 1.05 to 1.06. The liquidity provider will make all of the money from back and forth trades and the shorts wouldn't really have to worry about getting force settled once there was ample liquidity.
we are lucky the whals don't read the whitepater carefully, if he know, he can force settlement all short position at such a long time.
Quote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 12:11:32 amQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 11:56:12 pmQuote from: clayop on November 30, 2015, 10:53:39 pmAre you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY Wrong statement. Sorry.you're not explaining yourself clearlyYou didn't answer my question. Tell me when bitCNY has premium than CNY. It's price feed in terms of CNY/BTS is always lower (e.g. 0.0203) than exchanged price (0.0207). Compare USD/BTS depth chart and CNY/BTS chart. You'll find the difference.Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmYes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNYThere was some emergency, because someone (you may know who he is) was enjoying (for example, settled 4,200 CNY) free money with the wrong price feed. And you didn't pay 1 million BTS until your order is filled.Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmNo transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.[/color]Again, with this small difference, someone was exploiting the system.Who's the someone? Can you answer?@clayop It's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.
Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 11:56:12 pmQuote from: clayop on November 30, 2015, 10:53:39 pmAre you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY Wrong statement. Sorry.you're not explaining yourself clearlyYou didn't answer my question. Tell me when bitCNY has premium than CNY. It's price feed in terms of CNY/BTS is always lower (e.g. 0.0203) than exchanged price (0.0207). Compare USD/BTS depth chart and CNY/BTS chart. You'll find the difference.Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmYes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNYThere was some emergency, because someone (you may know who he is) was enjoying (for example, settled 4,200 CNY) free money with the wrong price feed. And you didn't pay 1 million BTS until your order is filled.Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmNo transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.[/color]Again, with this small difference, someone was exploiting the system.Who's the someone? Can you answer?
Quote from: clayop on November 30, 2015, 10:53:39 pmAre you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY Wrong statement. Sorry.you're not explaining yourself clearly
Are you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY Wrong statement. Sorry.
Yes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNY
No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.[/color]
@clayop It's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.
I was damn serious for 3 days straight, alt. The only joke I made was the one above.[about jonny settling my short bitusds]For the teaching others - take for example this shit:https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18475.msg251986.html#msg251986even after I solve something for supposed bounty no one cares to pay...or explain why they are not paying for the very least.PSand brownies I did not get either. why?Because they by definition they require not only doing stuff but kissing BM's ass afterwards.The only thing I actually get from BTS is every changing rules - some even hidden, seemingly on purpose, that could have cost me 750K BTS if for not very fast thinking and experimenting to learn what trap BM have in mind for me.And after all this some whale comes around, makes the committee change the rules with no need for that and EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOT LOSE A DIME AND THEY DID NOT KNOW A RULE THAT WAS KNOWN FOR AGESgive me a break
And after all this some whale comes around, makes the committee change the rules with no need for that and EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOT LOSE A DIME AND THEY DID NOT KNOW A RULE THAT WAS KNOWN FOR AGES
I find SQP not right (very wrong actually) for this market.I also am not shorts fan or longs fan - I want things in balance.The force settlement rule is not so terrible for shorts and a great thing for the long positions holders.If we do not punish the shorts with anything else unfair they can live well with the forced settlement, imo
I have a solution for your attack alt - use not last feed price but the 24h average price. It seems like 'expensive' operation but the fee is 1000BTS so it should cover it.
Quote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 02:17:15 amI was damn serious for 3 days straight, alt. The only joke I made was the one above.[about jonny settling my short bitusds]For the teaching others - take for example this shit:https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18475.msg251986.html#msg251986even after I solve something for supposed bounty no one cares to pay...or explain why they are not paying for the very least.PSand brownies I did not get either. why?Because they by definition they require not only doing stuff but kissing BM's ass afterwards.The only thing I actually get from BTS is every changing rules - some even hidden, seemingly on purpose, that could have cost me 750K BTS if for not very fast thinking and experimenting to learn what trap BM have in mind for me.And after all this some whale comes around, makes the committee change the rules with no need for that and EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOT LOSE A DIME AND THEY DID NOT KNOW A RULE THAT WAS KNOWN FOR AGESgive me a breakI can fell your feeling about the unfair, but I don't want to say it more.what you have said the whale is transwiser right?I'll push to change settlement rule not because of transwiser, but because of BTSjust like I push to change SQP from 1500 to 1100, next to 1000.why do you support change SQP, but fell angry about change settlement rule?
Quote from: alt on December 01, 2015, 01:52:00 amQuote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 12:52:04 amQuote from: alt on December 01, 2015, 12:50:10 amQuote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 12:46:19 amQuote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 12:32:27 amQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 01, 2015, 12:23:57 amIt's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?I for one am so sad you prevented Jonny from exploiting my short bitUSD positions...just when I finally figured out how to be exploited and bam you guys stopped him /sso you are the guy who want to be settlement because you hold bitUSD short position?Jonny are the guy who want to ask settlement because he hold bitCNY long position?this is the reason why you two are so angry for pause the settlement?of course I want to be settled in bitUSD. What is wrong with that, now?You do not agree that the shorters should be allowed to make money? Be as it is once in a blue moon?I agree your operation is correct of course.but what I want to talk now is about the trade rule, not just for me or for you.can you tell me what's your opinion without your personal profit?maybe you'll refuse because I remember you have said you don't want to waste your time for teaching others.maybe you'll lost chance to make money after you tell your real thought to others.I was damn serious for 3 days straight, alt. The only joke I made was the one above.[about jonny settling my short bitusds]For the teaching others - take for example this shit:https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18475.msg251986.html#msg251986even after I solve something for supposed bounty no one cares to pay...or explain why they are not paying for the very least.PSand brownies I did not get either. why?Because they by definition they require not only doing stuff but kissing BM's ass afterwards.The only thing I actually get from BTS is every changing rules - some even hidden, seemingly on purpose, that could have cost me 750K BTS if for not very fast thinking and experimenting to learn what trap BM have in mind for me.And after all this some whale comes around, makes the committee change the rules with no need for that and EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOT LOSE A DIME AND THEY DID NOT KNOW A RULE THAT WAS KNOWN FOR AGESgive me a break
Quote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 12:52:04 amQuote from: alt on December 01, 2015, 12:50:10 amQuote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 12:46:19 amQuote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 12:32:27 amQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 01, 2015, 12:23:57 amIt's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?I for one am so sad you prevented Jonny from exploiting my short bitUSD positions...just when I finally figured out how to be exploited and bam you guys stopped him /sso you are the guy who want to be settlement because you hold bitUSD short position?Jonny are the guy who want to ask settlement because he hold bitCNY long position?this is the reason why you two are so angry for pause the settlement?of course I want to be settled in bitUSD. What is wrong with that, now?You do not agree that the shorters should be allowed to make money? Be as it is once in a blue moon?I agree your operation is correct of course.but what I want to talk now is about the trade rule, not just for me or for you.can you tell me what's your opinion without your personal profit?maybe you'll refuse because I remember you have said you don't want to waste your time for teaching others.maybe you'll lost chance to make money after you tell your real thought to others.
Quote from: alt on December 01, 2015, 12:50:10 amQuote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 12:46:19 amQuote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 12:32:27 amQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 01, 2015, 12:23:57 amIt's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?I for one am so sad you prevented Jonny from exploiting my short bitUSD positions...just when I finally figured out how to be exploited and bam you guys stopped him /sso you are the guy who want to be settlement because you hold bitUSD short position?Jonny are the guy who want to ask settlement because he hold bitCNY long position?this is the reason why you two are so angry for pause the settlement?of course I want to be settled in bitUSD. What is wrong with that, now?You do not agree that the shorters should be allowed to make money? Be as it is once in a blue moon?
Quote from: tonyk on December 01, 2015, 12:46:19 amQuote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 12:32:27 amQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 01, 2015, 12:23:57 amIt's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?I for one am so sad you prevented Jonny from exploiting my short bitUSD positions...just when I finally figured out how to be exploited and bam you guys stopped him /sso you are the guy who want to be settlement because you hold bitUSD short position?Jonny are the guy who want to ask settlement because he hold bitCNY long position?this is the reason why you two are so angry for pause the settlement?
Quote from: clayop on December 01, 2015, 12:32:27 amQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 01, 2015, 12:23:57 amIt's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?I for one am so sad you prevented Jonny from exploiting my short bitUSD positions...just when I finally figured out how to be exploited and bam you guys stopped him /s
Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on December 01, 2015, 12:23:57 amIt's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.You were potentially exploiting all shorters, and finally Bitshares system.Yes it's rational profit maximization choice, but based on inaccurate price feed. So are you angry because we fix the price feed and while suspend your free money exploiting?
It's no secret I was buying bitCNY for less than the feed and settling it because I am a rational market participant. I still have a big sub feed price buy wall up and will continue to profit from it again when instant settlement returns. :-)I'm not exploiting bitshares I'm exploiting transwiser.
What i don't understand is, if the feed was off all this time and didn't get fix until the force settlement option become visible, who was benefiting all this time? Doesn't that mean transwiser was profiting from a flaw all this time? Why wasn't it reported earlier? It should have been noticeable.
@JonnyBitcoin The really bad thing here is that You don't even try to listen and understand what we are saing.You can continue in believe what you said replying to clayop, but it is just false.-The price feed for CNY is lower than what it should be because the current script does not include some big chinese exchanges-The committee has not changed any fundamental design of the system. The committee has temporary disabled a function that was used to exploit a situation in CNY market, caused by the inaccurate feed.(function that probably more than 99.9% of the community never used before the gui introduction, yourself included I bet, so don't scream to the scandal if is not available for 1 week after months of being out of normal use)-We need people that instead of insult and complain all the time, step up and put theirself on the table. Make a committee account and propose theirself for help the whole community and the current committee.
Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmthe price feed is lower because CNY is cheaper than BitCNYAre you saying CNY/BTS (around 0.0203) or BTS/CNY (around 49)? I was saying CNY/BTS. And bitCNY feed should be higher than CNY because the feed is a price of bitCNY, not CNY.you're not explaining yourself clearly Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmthe committee should never have done this as it changes the fundamental design of smartcoins and their purposeDid the committee change the fundamental design? It's just a temporarily suspension. Why do you cannot wait for days? Did this decision give damages to you?Yes it does temporarily change the design of smartcoin. There was no emergency, if we change rules over non issues like this bitshares will not be trusted in the future. Yes I nearly paid 1 million bts to settle some bitCNYQuote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmNo transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY I agree. So price difference between price feed and exchanged price should be smaller that the conversion fee. But with the wrong price feed, they have to charge more than 3%, and it will significantly decrease demands. If the feed is fixed, they can charge smaller amount of fee.the price feed isn't out that drastically, you can ask the witnesses to make adjustments but should not change the rules of a smartcoin contract overnight.Quote from: JonnyBitcoin on November 30, 2015, 09:32:17 pmNo clayop we do not need that. What we need is for people to elect someone to the committee who can replace you. Someone who understands finance better than you do.I encourage you to apply committee member instead of blaming others.
the price feed is lower because CNY is cheaper than BitCNY
the committee should never have done this as it changes the fundamental design of smartcoins and their purpose
No transwiser will not be able to sustain their business model if they sell 1 bitCNY for 1 CNY
No clayop we do not need that. What we need is for people to elect someone to the committee who can replace you. Someone who understands finance better than you do.
4. The presence of "forced settlement" is meant to maintain correlation to outside prices, not to set the price. The actual price should be higher than the forced settlement price, hence the feed becomes a price FLOOR. In general there should always be money to be made by offering to buy BitCNY with more BTS than you could get with forced settlement and then turning around and selling that BitCNY for even more BTS. New BitCNY only enters the market when the price of BitCNY gets high enough to cover all of the liquidity risks. In principle, someone who is short BitCNY and gets force settled is getting a HUGE deal. They are effectively covering at the lowest possible premium (0), but unfortunately in exchange for getting the lowest possible premium, they do not get to choose the best possible time to exit their position.
5. There is a daily limit on the percent of BitCNY supply that can be force settled. Thus only the bottom X% of collateral holders are subject to risk.
Quote from: Helikopterben on November 30, 2015, 08:19:39 pmSo it was a problem with the price feed and not forced stllement?There are two separate problems. One is obvious- price feed is lower than the exchanged price so bad actors can exploit gateway effectively. To prevent this, the committee suspended force settlement with emergency.Another is quite debatable. The question maybe that "is force settlement a unfair disadvantage for shorters?", "Can transwise sustain with force settlement?". To resolve these questions, we need more cooperation and discussion I think.
So it was a problem with the price feed and not forced stllement?
BM thanks for your input and clarification.1. I agree the documentation was always there, but when things are moving at a fast pace any heads up or communication about significant updates would help core businesses like Transwiser be proactive. Cosmetic changes are not a priority, but we should give ample warning for a GUI change that exposes a significant feature to the general public for the first time and changes the nature of trading. Another case in point is that there seems to be a fork update on making margin calls only triggered when call prices are above the price feed. (Btw that seems to be a fantastic change and thank you for doing that.) However very few know the details and that could significantly change how things work so communicating the specifics of the change would help for the same reasons above.
See I told you so. Some of the best bits.There is nothing "new", "unexpected" or "flawed" in how the market is behavingWithout forced settlement BitUSD holders must pay for liquidity by selling for less than a dollarBitCNY is greater than 1 CNY and anyone selling BitCNY for 1 CNY is assuming 100% of the cost of liquidity The conclusion from this is that if you are going to borrower BitCNY and sell it into the market, then you should be prepared to be force settledSo what date will forced settlement be re enabled?