BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: xeroc on May 17, 2015, 09:23:05 am

Title: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 17, 2015, 09:23:05 am
Fellow BitSharers,

Problem Statement
Rumors state that there will be plenty of new features (17 or so) in the
upcoming release of BitShares. Taking into account the historical reactions on
ANY news regarding BitShares, I feel that most people might dump their shares
on the market even before having read the announcment in full.

Proposal
I therefore propose (and ask Bytemaster) to add a TL;DR; (too long; didn't
read) paragraph replying to the biggest concerns of shareholders right at the
top of "the annoucenemnt".

So, what I ask YOU to do in this thread is the following. Tell me what your
biggest technicall concerns about BitShares are. I will update this OP and
collect all issues here.

Contributions

Is there a plan for reaching out to the fintech startups of the world?  There has been $13.4bn of investment over the last yr to these startups that are hungry for a competitive edge like BitShares.
What is the plan for reaching consumers as the uber of banking?



edit: As a remark: Some questions may not be answered in an "Announcement for the next BitShares release", but may fit for a direct discussion in the mumble sessions with Bytemaster or any other community member. Though I will try to get answers of as many questions as possible.




Eaglery waiting for input.
Regards
 -- XeRoc
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: fav on May 17, 2015, 09:40:57 am

Proposal
I therefore propose (and ask Bytemaster) to add a TL;DR; (too long; didn't
read) paragraph replying to the biggest concerns of shareholders right at the
top of "the announcement".


+17%
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: julian1 on May 17, 2015, 10:16:48 am
I like everything I hear.

- The referral system puts emphasis and incentives where they need to be - on acquiring new users.

- The separation of delegate duties, should allow better limitation of legal liability, and encourage branching into new markets.

- The changes to Bitassets rules -  I don't understand well, but appreciate they've been well received.

- Adopting a web-sockets/push approach to client/ server communication is awesome and will really help ease UX development, performance and scalability (personal experience with this).

What do I fear? That's simple. A code rewrite of this magnitude could introduce many new bugs, reveal hidden design assumptions that are no longer valid, and take far longer and require more resource than many will initially appreciate.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: davidpbrown on May 17, 2015, 10:26:34 am
Tell me what your biggest technical concerns about BitShares are.

What BitShares offers as pegged assets has huge potential. That should be clear to everyone. I wonder that capability should be the centrepeice of all marketing; wiki's and FAQ, as it's fairly unique to BitShares - value of asset by consensus, is a really important idea.

My principal concern then is that DPOS is not obvious and simple but confusing and political. The voting doesn't provide effective positive and negative feedback; large holders dominate and minor holders see their votes have little effect. The payments to the principal delegates are not obviously fair .. 100% is a license to print money. Where is the clear simple list of business cases for those?.. and even with that creating work for a user, expecting them to trawl through 101 of those to confirm they make sense, is too much. Better perhaps to set classes of delegate - devs get 100%; admin-support 80%; marketing 64%; etc or whatever but make it simple==trivial to understand and draw confidence from. While BitShares BTS are not worth what they will be, some delegates will be accruing a small fortune. Like it or not such central wealth and whales are not an attractor in a world looking for fair distributed power and wealth. It might be better for the long term that those are burnt through into BTC even?

There is then a serious question legal/technical question that's beyond me, about whether BitShares will need to become realistic and acknowledge KYC and AML in some way.. sufficient to engage large investors. Bytemaster and others seem to understand their options and it's not clear atm what Governments will insist on.. the UK perhaps being more realistic in how the perceived value of a digital token, is not Government's business and the exchange of those is not requiring KYC/AML but ye old bank and institutional money might not understand to take confidence from consensus rather than legislation. Jumping in one step to what we want from what we have, might not be realistic.

Other issues such as usability; GUI etc as incidental and will naturally evolve over time.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: speedy on May 17, 2015, 11:02:12 am
Here is my biggest concern: Is the upcoming announcement just more technical improvements/features (however great they are), or will there be any big exchanges/banks who issue their assets on the BitShares blockchain?

Our technical features could be so clever that they pass the Turing test, and still most Bitcoiners wouldnt care because to them we are still just an altcoin. They can ignore us because our assets arent integrated into any big money, unlike Ripple.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: starspirit on May 17, 2015, 11:53:04 am
Strategic:
What's the core product?
How do we profit from it?
Title: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: carpet ride on May 17, 2015, 11:57:07 am
Is there a plan for reaching out to the fintech startups of the world?  There has been $13.4bn of investment over the last yr to these startups that are hungry for a competitive edge like BitShares.

What is the plan for reaching consumers as the uber of banking?

Edit: I listened to the 5/15/2015 mumble and that answered these questions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: triox on May 17, 2015, 03:19:21 pm
I think this community is setting themselves for a great disappointment if you continue to desperately cling to the hope of some big big/surprise announcements.

If you read the forum and listen to mumble sessions, probably everything has already been leaked by DL/SL in an attempt to stop the price tanking.


What more do you want? If you're praying for a partnership with Goldman Sachs, BM has said multiple times that Bitshares integration can only be viable for small startups that are looking for an edge. I believe the most we can hope for at this point is integrating with some mid-size Bitcoin-oriented business. Bitstamp at most.

Still, if you're reading all this and it's not enough to be excited than you better dump your shares now and spare us the inevitable whining.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 17, 2015, 03:25:12 pm
@triox: please read the OP again. Your post kind of doesn't fit here ..

Else I agree, except that we only know what BM wants us to know .. and he learn the consequences if leaking information the hard way already .. so i'd say: relax and stay excited
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Thom on May 17, 2015, 04:05:35 pm
There are a few good questions and concerns expressed so far in this thread.  +5% to the OP for his anticipatory thinking about the community reactions when the upcoming announcement is made.

My chief concern is and always will be how well is BitShares sticking to the fundamental principles that brought me and many others to this ecosystem.

If that fades then so will my support. BM said much in last Friday's mumble to assure me he is committed to those principles, to further the cause of non-violent financial freedom and provide an alternative to the mainstream financial oligarchy. Is he just playing the role of a politician and will change his mind and bend to the pressure to make money and capture that elusive network effect? I still believe BM has more integrity than that and he will not acquiesce to KYC & AML pressures --to the extent they would affect all BTS shareholders--

I recognize it's a very difficult thing to determine the correct balance and create an ecosystem that pleases the two widely divergent perspectives of those that want to embrace the existing mainstream financial world and the silk road types that embrace total freedom through voluntary interaction.

What greatly puzzles me is why so few people realize why bitcoin, BitShares and cryptocurrency in general exists in the first place and how reaching out to gain mainstream approval / adoption is so contrary to what gave birth to it. It is like saying, "Dang, looks like it's gonna be real difficult to build an alternate ecosystem to further the cause of freedom, so fuck that we're about to die! Lets ask for help to morph what we have built into something familiar to the masses and after we become successful we'll return to the original goals".

I just don't get why people want more of the same things in BitShares that already exist in the mainstream, things which are proven to be more centralized, manipulated, corruptible and wealth sucking. If you want those things go back to the mainstream financial world! BitShares stands for something radically different. That may only draw a small minority of supporters initially, the growth of the ecosystem will not be meteoric, profits on speculative trades may be much less lucrative, but if we can weather the economic storm the entrenched financial powers that shouldn't be are imposing on us, we will slowly win the hearts and minds of more and more people and become a powerful example of the true free market that has never before existed on a global scale to empower the 6+ billion individuals to reach their greatest potential.

[ / philosophical rant off ]

My primary technical concern is whether all of the sweeping changes will be perceived as overall positive or net negative by the community. It all hinges on the User eXperience. I am very uneasy about this. The team has not demonstrated the innovation and rate of improvement of frontend (UI) development compared with that of the infrastructure / backend. It clearly isn't where their passion lives. However, BM is heading up an exceptional team, and he realizes the importance and difficulty of creating a solid, positive UX. Will he be able to  manage and guide his team to produce a quality software product that the market wants? Will support be a killer after it's released (i.e. bugs)? Will he be able to acquire the necessary skills in UI / UX to pull this off? Will it take much longer than anticipated, causing loss of confidence if the "big release" doesn't happen until July or possibly even August?


Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on May 17, 2015, 04:07:34 pm
It has always been my impression and I think it has been communicated like this from the beginning that bitshares will do for business what bitcoin did for money. Many have come and many have left..I am still here. I am not a big shareholder though and I only hope to profit by holding something valuable like BTS.

So far, I have been buying BTS at all prices, shorting bitassets, Holding BTS..So far I lost ALL my profits from the last 2 years successful trading with bitcoin and all other altcoins craps and now I am at losses since I only hold BTS.

So my 3 concerns are:

1) Holding BTS and shorting Bitassets will have a consequence of those who believed in BTS lose everything and holding the bag? The current system apparently was designed to make profits to those that sold their BTS for bitassets when BTS was pumped. Is this the plan?

2) Since we expect some great news, "epic news", where is the buying volume? Why no one is buying and more specifically, why the devs who are so excited about BTS and about what is coming why they don't buy like crazy now? Where are the millions daily volumes we had when everyone was so excited about BTS?

3) Should we expect a fast, professional GUI experience within this year?

Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xiahui135 on May 17, 2015, 04:20:24 pm
Why we have this many huge changes in bts?
Why there are so many announcement?

We are building a platform, we should be stable, so others can do something on it.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: cass on May 17, 2015, 04:26:27 pm
Quote
2) Since we expect some great news, "epic news", where is the buying volume? Why no one is buying and more specifically, why the devs who are so excited about BTS and about what is coming why they don't buy like crazy now? Where are the millions daily volumes we had when everyone was so excited about BTS?

Because they don't have any money to buy into more ... ^^
(They made also losses due the BTS fall etc)
</wildguess>

Quote
3) Should we expect a fast, professional GUI experience within this year

i'm really confident about to reach this goal :)

Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on May 17, 2015, 04:38:52 pm
As much as I want to believe that devs don't have money to buy BTS because they made losses from BTS price fall I find this hard to believe .Someone is buying and someone is selling. Someone makes profits and someone makes losses. It can't be that everybody makes losses. Some people made a lot of money from BTS. I think that people who follow all the technical development of BTS can see in front of others of what is coming so they can't make losses especially in such an iliquid market such as BTS. So if you guys want BTS not to die completely, these people better leave their greadyness and start rebuying some BTS and pumping the price in millions daily volumes so new and current investors can regain some confidence..

Sorry for the frustrating and nonconstructive post. I am just very saaadd about BTS market cap...
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on May 17, 2015, 04:44:08 pm
and by the way I have also another concern..

When will the expired short orders will be filled and the BTS collateral will be released? Are these filled in order of expiry when someone is buying Bitusd at price feed? Does this mean that in order for all the expired orders to release collateral bitusd should fall below usd? What happens if bitusd never falls below usd because of small orders above the bitusd usd peg? Will the collateral from the expired orders remain blocked forever? Can I cover my self one of my expired order somehow?
Title: Re: In preparations for the &quot;big&quot; announcement
Post by: triox on May 17, 2015, 05:21:37 pm
@triox: please read the OP again. Your post kind of doesn't fit here ..

You're right. I wasn't directing it specifically at you or people responding here, but this thread seems like a good place to try to dispel those myths about 'secret sauce' or 'banking partners' that many in this forum are so desperately clinging for. It's the result of lack of clear dev communication on one hand and vague, confusing bs from SL on the other.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Ben Mason on May 17, 2015, 06:18:06 pm
Perhaps the biggest news has already been released. The devs have produced 17000 lines of code according to Bytemaster. Isn't that the best thing we could hear, the best hope for the software and most powerful indication of commitment to this project?  As to the quality, surely we are all here because we believe the devs are supremely capable.  I'll be happy if the software has improved in multiple areas (many of which have been discussed) and is still leading the market in innovation.

My biggest concern is that we do not forget the nature of our investment and due to impatience, form unreasonable expectations that the 'price' will suddenly jump massively upwards. The amount of work is what we should value and the quality of it once implemented..  Some may think that is naive but I think it's the only way to support the devs and get to where the software needs to be. Work first, price later.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: inarizushi on May 17, 2015, 06:41:34 pm
and by the way I have also another concern..

When will the expired short orders will be filled and the BTS collateral will be released? Are these filled in order of expiry when someone is buying Bitusd at price feed? Does this mean that in order for all the expired orders to release collateral bitusd should fall below usd? What happens if bitusd never falls below usd because of small orders above the bitusd usd peg? Will the collateral from the expired orders remain blocked forever? Can I cover my self one of my expired order somehow?

Same concern here.

I like most new ideas from bytemaster, but it always feel like the dev team doesn't care to be just to people who have invested their energy in the current state of the system. Shorters have suffered immensely, and now bitAssets 1.0 will have to be abandoned...
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: toast on May 17, 2015, 07:11:42 pm

and by the way I have also another concern..

When will the expired short orders will be filled and the BTS collateral will be released? Are these filled in order of expiry when someone is buying Bitusd at price feed? Does this mean that in order for all the expired orders to release collateral bitusd should fall below usd? What happens if bitusd never falls below usd because of small orders above the bitusd usd peg? Will the collateral from the expired orders remain blocked forever? Can I cover my self one of my expired order somehow?
You should be able to manually cover expired orders with no regard to other bids on the market
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: mf-tzo on May 17, 2015, 07:29:39 pm
That is reassuring. Thank u Toast
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: jakub on May 17, 2015, 10:05:49 pm
I still believe BM has more integrity than that and he will not acquiesce to KYC & AML pressures.
I just don't get why people want more of the same things in BitShares that already exist in the mainstream, things which are proven to be more centralized, manipulated, corruptible and wealth sucking. If you want those things go back to the mainstream financial world!
That's a bit strange to hear it because I have not seen a single person on this forum pushing for this. What KYC & AML pressures are you referring to?
The line defined by BM seems to be clear and (I think) generally accepted by everyone: only UIA and gateways will have the ability to be KYC & AML compliant (so it's optional, not obligatory), everything else stays under the principle of full privacy and freedom.

It all hinges on the User eXperience. I am very uneasy about this. The team has not demonstrated the innovation and rate of improvement of frontend (UI) development compared with that of the infrastructure / backend. It clearly isn't where their passion lives. However, BM is heading up an exceptional team, and he realizes the importance and difficulty of creating a solid, positive UX.
+5% That's exactly how I see it.
After the back-end stuff for 1.0 is finished I think it's worth delaying the release 2 or 3 weeks and concentrate all efforts just on the UX.
It'll be a shame if we end up with a superior product hidden under bad packaging.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Method-X on May 18, 2015, 04:08:58 am
It all hinges on the User eXperience. I am very uneasy about this. The team has not demonstrated the innovation and rate of improvement of frontend (UI) development compared with that of the infrastructure / backend. It clearly isn't where their passion lives. However, BM is heading up an exceptional team, and he realizes the importance and difficulty of creating a solid, positive UX.

I've always been impressed with the design of the client. Are you referring to the fact that the client is laggy and buggy?
Title: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Krills on May 18, 2015, 07:24:13 am
I guess bm will not answer any questions.However,I really want he will.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 07:27:56 am
I guess bm will not answer any questions.However,I really want he will.
He (or any other core dev) will not answer them here .. but directly in (or next to) the announcement thread ..
Though, he may focus on the technical questions, and not answer "when are we going to the moon"-kind of questions
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: jakub on May 18, 2015, 07:36:37 am
It all hinges on the User eXperience. I am very uneasy about this. The team has not demonstrated the innovation and rate of improvement of frontend (UI) development compared with that of the infrastructure / backend. It clearly isn't where their passion lives. However, BM is heading up an exceptional team, and he realizes the importance and difficulty of creating a solid, positive UX.

I've always been impressed with the design of the client. Are you referring to the fact that the client is laggy and buggy?

The client being laggy and buggy (and also not refreshing automatically) is a separate issue.

For me there are three main issues with the UX:

1. The voting process is complicated and unnecessarily split into two stages: first you you operate on the thumbs up/down level and then you need to remember to actually apply the vote in each of your accounts. For me that's confusing and unintuitive and I never know whom I currently support. There should be a wizard that guides you through the whole process and clearly shows you the end result.

2. When you do anything more complex than simple transfers (e.g. creating bid/ask order or shorting bit-assets) lots of virtual/internal transactions show up on the list of your recent transactions which are totally inexplicable for less advanced users. By default they should be hidden from view and only shown when you ask for more details.

3. Switching between different accounts is inconsistent: in most cases it takes you to the details of the newly selected account but sometimes it just updates the data below (e.g. when you are on the market page).
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 08:15:22 am
@xeroc: +5%
 
Everybody else in this thread: +5%
 
Even if we did have a unanimous vote/Poll on new features (or just one feature like blockchain-based HR), we, as shareholders have no power at all to make our "President" do anything. Downvoting him is dumb since he's actually coding (I think), but swaying *what* gets coded... pffft
 
Every line of code should be visible. I've had it with the "big" announcements and all these amazing "business contacts" their PR expert is allegedly getting us. You guys are way more patient than I am.
 
Show me employee accountability and I'll stay here.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: helloworld on May 18, 2015, 09:44:24 am
@xeroc: +5%
 
Everybody else in this thread: +5%
 
Even if we did have a unanimous vote/Poll on new features (or just one feature like blockchain-based HR), we, as shareholders have no power at all to make our "President" do anything. Downvoting him is dumb since he's actually coding (I think), but swaying *what* gets coded... pffft
 
Every line of code should be visible. I've had it with the "big" announcements and all these amazing "business contacts" their PR expert is allegedly getting us. You guys are way more patient than I am.
 
Show me employee accountability and I'll stay here.


 +5% , We have no power at all
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 10:00:24 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Ben Mason on May 18, 2015, 10:08:10 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!
Absolutely.....power is decentralized enough to ensure consensus always acts in the interests of the majority of network participants.  That mechanism protects one's financial freedom if you have 1 or 1 million BTS.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 10:12:51 am
Absolutely.....power is decentralized enough to ensure consensus always acts in the interests of the majority of network participants.  That mechanism protects one's financial freedom if you have 1 or 1 million BTS.
.. and that's why it is nice to see cheap shares ..
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: kenCode on May 18, 2015, 10:16:56 am
I can buy DOGE too, but that doesn't mean it will ever be worth anything.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 10:29:31 am
My biggest technical concern is how buggy the client still seems to be. As I pointed out in the 0.9.0 feedback thread, moving my wallet to a new system was a two day odyssey where the blockchain stopped syncing several times and unlocking the wallet would not work.

Someone in another thread suggested running the bitshares console client to sync, because apparently this yields better results.
Of course, that is unacceptable. Imagine that being a new users' first experience.. doesn't exactly inspire confidence!


Another thing is that the wallet is very heavy. On a quad core with 2GB of RAM (virtual machine - 2GB RAM *just* for BitShares GUI), the UI lags. Clicking on 'exchange' takes about two seconds to register, for instance. The program feels very heavy. I don't think it's actually doing so much (especially on a system with such generous specs) to warrant being so slow.


Non technical concerns include misleading/incomplete/outdated documentation. We need someone who's willing to step up and correct the technical errors in the documentation. After that there should be some spellchecking, for there are many such errors in the wiki as well.

This is especially true with all the new proposed rules. I don't even understand anymore if BitAssets will still return interest, for many people of course that's one of the benefits..


And lastly, there seems to not be too much interest in privacy features; Namely, there is still no proxy support as we approach 1.0, and to my knowledge the official faucet is still registering accounts without TITAN. Which means most users' finances are now on the internet for the whole world to see. And I don't think they realize that.


That's all I can think of right now. Even with all these things I still see great potential in this, and it works so well together with other cryptocurrencies as well. When people realize they can safely hold value in BitUSD (as far as $ stability goes, of course) while they want to be sure their BTC or WhateverCoin won't be dropping in value .. BitShares really is a game changer I think, in more than this aspect.

But as it stands now, I cannot recommend it to people I know. The wallet is so slow (and yeah I know, online wallet, but then you're trusting your money to a 3rd party, no?) and buggy it would be an instant turn-off.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Ben Mason on May 18, 2015, 10:39:05 am
I can buy DOGE too, but that doesn't mean it will ever be worth anything.

That's true.  Where lies the true value in any crypto or in Bitshares?  There are two core value propositions....

1. Improved efficiency, security & transparency of transactions across a network.  This is useful for everyone, including existing centralized organisations.
2. The ability for every constituent of a network to be able to enforce a set of rules to which they have consented and entrusted their communications/finances.

What mechanisms currently protect a BTS user's communications/finances?

Open source software – transparent, constantly reviewed code
Easily forkable – replicate a desirable version of the code base followed by a migration of the network participants (in which the value of the network resides) 
Decentralised ledger – multiple copies of secure, transparent, identical information
Voting – network participants may vote to remove any bad actor in a position of trust or authority (a delegate selectively or failing to produce blocks) etc.

Bitshares is the only crypto project that is attempting to provide comprehensive markets that are completely decentralized with the power of consensus firmly in the hands of the network participants.  The monster value which will take Bitshares to the moon once the kinks are ironed out is right here.  The ideal and adherence to it whilst the work is being done is what makes this project valuable, the current market simply does not yet understand that because it requires staggering levels of innovation and seeing a version of the world that does not yet exist.  We all need to hold the line.... 'time not important, only life important.'

Title: Re: In preparations for the &quot;big&quot; announcement
Post by: sittingduck on May 18, 2015, 11:35:47 am
So much is demanded by so many it is clear that this group is impossible to please.   




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: In preparations for the &quot;big&quot; announcement
Post by: Ben Mason on May 18, 2015, 11:44:47 am
So much is demanded by so many it is clear that this group is impossible to please.   




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha!  It may seem like that at times.  Remember though....for every seller there's a buyer and who's to say yet if the sellers are right or the buyers  ;D
Title: Re: In preparations for the &quot;big&quot; announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 18, 2015, 12:07:53 pm
So much is demanded by so many it is clear that this group is impossible to please.   
One needs to try the impossible to achieve what's possible!
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: jsidhu on May 18, 2015, 03:50:50 pm
The ui is secondary to any features of the core. Ui speed has
nothing to do with the core and is solely a problem with rhe ui code.. any of the other wallets might work better for you. With angular 2.0 it should get faster anyway.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: karnal on May 18, 2015, 03:59:58 pm
Not necessarily, as a dumb example if a ui button is tied to a sleep(10) call in the core and excluding multithreading to keep this simple, the ui will feel slow and the problem would be in the core.

I have not analyzed the code so I don't care to speculate on why it's slow, but it IS.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: monsterer on May 18, 2015, 04:05:54 pm
I have not analyzed the code so I don't care to speculate on why it's slow, but it IS.

Probably because it uses over 1.3GB of RAM. Bitcoin uses 1/10 of that.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: jakub on May 18, 2015, 04:17:53 pm
The ui is secondary to any features of the core. Ui speed has
nothing to do with the core and is solely a problem with rhe ui code.. any of the other wallets might work better for you. With angular 2.0 it should get faster anyway.

This might be inaccurate.
In the latest hangout BM said that the current UI problems are mainly due to two issues:
1. inefficient data architecture of the back-end is reflected in the front-end
2. the communication protocol allows only pull requests from the front-end (i.e. data cannot be pushed from the back-end)

Both issues are to be addressed and fixed in 1.0.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Tuck Fheman on May 18, 2015, 06:21:42 pm
I can buy DOGE too, but that doesn't mean it will ever be worth anything.

1 DOGE = 1 DOGE
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: yiminh on May 18, 2015, 06:58:47 pm
The ui is secondary to any features of the core. Ui speed has
nothing to do with the core and is solely a problem with rhe ui code.. any of the other wallets might work better for you. With angular 2.0 it should get faster anyway.

This might be inaccurate.
In the latest hangout BM said that the current UI problems are mainly due to two issues:
1. inefficient data architecture of the back-end is reflected in the front-end
2. the communication protocol allows only pull requests from the front-end (i.e. data cannot be pushed from the back-end)

Both issues are to be addressed and fixed in 1.0.

don't call it 1.0 if it's buggier than bitcoin 0.1! bandages after bandages, dev team has made a art of making simple things complecated, whole project need to start from scratch or be abandoned.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: jsidhu on May 18, 2015, 09:31:15 pm
The ui is secondary to any features of the core. Ui speed has
nothing to do with the core and is solely a problem with rhe ui code.. any of the other wallets might work better for you. With angular 2.0 it should get faster anyway.

This might be inaccurate.
In the latest hangout BM said that the current UI problems are mainly due to two issues:
1. inefficient data architecture of the back-end is reflected in the front-end
2. the communication protocol allows only pull requests from the front-end (i.e. data cannot be pushed from the back-end)

Both issues are to be addressed and fixed in 1.0.

don't call it 1.0 if it's buggier than bitcoin 0.1! bandages after bandages, dev team has made a art of making simple things complecated, whole project need to start from scratch or be abandoned.

They are rebuilding core so its more usable by integrations apps
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: helloworld on May 19, 2015, 02:55:59 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!

Democracy should be one person have one vote right, not decide by person Who have more land , more money, more wealth.
BTS just like Joint-stock company, It will to do something decide by big stakeholders even if it is no correct.
BM just like Jobs in Apple Inc. ,Board of Directors is weak just like stakeholders is weak in BTS.
But BM is not Jobs, and BTS is not Apple Inc.

I know BM work hard , and payed a lot. I'm very admire him.
But a DAC should be more democracy.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: onceuponatime on May 19, 2015, 03:04:20 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!

Democracy should be one person have one vote right, not decide by person Who have more land , more money, more wealth.
BTS just like Joint-stock company, It will to do something decide by big stakeholders even if it is no correct.
BM just like Jobs in Apple Inc. ,Board of Directors is weak just like stakeholders is weak in BTS.
But BM is not Jobs, and BTS is not Apple Inc.

I know BM work hard , and payed a lot. I'm very admire him.
But a DAC should be more democracy.

If you want more vote, buy more BitShares. They are really cheap right now!
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: helloworld on May 19, 2015, 03:15:26 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!

Democracy should be one person have one vote right, not decide by person Who have more land , more money, more wealth.
BTS just like Joint-stock company, It will to do something decide by big stakeholders even if it is no correct.
BM just like Jobs in Apple Inc. ,Board of Directors is weak just like stakeholders is weak in BTS.
But BM is not Jobs, and BTS is not Apple Inc.

I know BM work hard , and payed a lot. I'm very admire him.
But a DAC should be more democracy.

If you want more vote, buy more BitShares. They are really cheap right now!

Have no power to decide something?
OK, Your should to buy more bitshares, you have no power because your bitshares not enough.   :P

But how many could make a change?
Even if buy more BTS, it could change anything?
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: helloworld on May 19, 2015, 03:24:01 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!

Democracy should be one person have one vote right, not decide by person Who have more land , more money, more wealth.
BTS just like Joint-stock company, It will to do something decide by big stakeholders even if it is no correct.
BM just like Jobs in Apple Inc. ,Board of Directors is weak just like stakeholders is weak in BTS.
But BM is not Jobs, and BTS is not Apple Inc.

I know BM work hard , and payed a lot. I'm very admire him.
But a DAC should be more democracy.

If you want more vote, buy more BitShares. They are really cheap right now!

Have no power to decide something?
OK, Your should to buy more bitshares, you have no power because your bitshares not enough.   :P

But how many could make a change?
Even if buy more BTS, it could change anything?

I'm not good at write by English , I just deliver my opinion.
If my words sound terrible , I‘m sorry.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: sudo on May 19, 2015, 06:00:00 am
cold storage menu?
bts mail menu?

user define menu?
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 19, 2015, 06:36:35 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!

Democracy should be one person have one vote right, not decide by person Who have more land , more money, more wealth.
BTS just like Joint-stock company, It will to do something decide by big stakeholders even if it is no correct.
BM just like Jobs in Apple Inc. ,Board of Directors is weak just like stakeholders is weak in BTS.
But BM is not Jobs, and BTS is not Apple Inc.

I know BM work hard , and payed a lot. I'm very admire him.
But a DAC should be more democracy.

If you want more vote, buy more BitShares. They are really cheap right now!

Have no power to decide something?
OK, Your should to buy more bitshares, you have no power because your bitshares not enough.   :P

But how many could make a change?
Even if buy more BTS, it could change anything?

I'm not good at write by English , I just deliver my opinion.
If my words sound terrible , I‘m sorry.

I do understand your concern .. but no company is democratic .. never was, and never will be.
Democracy, as defined, concerns all people of a country with the only option to opt-out by leaving the country.
Hence, everyone in that country "is supposed to have one vote".

Here, everyone with a BTS balance is a shareholder of the company, with the option to opt-out by just selling.
If you want more power, you need to by into the company. Same thing as with traditional companies.
HOWEVER, in BitShares, even small shareholders get a vote, and not only the top 20 investors. And that's the whole point here.

BTW, please recall that those that have more stake in the system have more interest in the success .. short- or long-term.

In the end, the costumers are a different story. They are supposed to use the product, not invest into it. That's why I ask exchanges to list bitAssets instead of BTS.

EOO (end of opinion)
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Ben Mason on May 19, 2015, 06:39:27 am
+5% , We have no power at all
I have power .. just because I have >0 BTS shares in BTS ..
It's like democracy .. even if you feel your vote doesn't count, the opinion of the mass does count!

Democracy should be one person have one vote right, not decide by person Who have more land , more money, more wealth.
BTS just like Joint-stock company, It will to do something decide by big stakeholders even if it is no correct.
BM just like Jobs in Apple Inc. ,Board of Directors is weak just like stakeholders is weak in BTS.
But BM is not Jobs, and BTS is not Apple Inc.

I know BM work hard , and payed a lot. I'm very admire him.
But a DAC should be more democracy.

If you want more vote, buy more BitShares. They are really cheap right now!

Have no power to decide something?
OK, Your should to buy more bitshares, you have no power because your bitshares not enough.   :P

But how many could make a change?
Even if buy more BTS, it could change anything?

I'm not good at write by English , I just deliver my opinion.
If my words sound terrible , I‘m sorry.

Your words are fine and your English is excellent....waaaay better than my Chinese. As to your concern. Try to think further ahead...if some day, everyone on the planet had some Bitshares and those that start out with many (big holders have actually a very low % compared to other leading crypto projects) gradually use some or pass them on to multiple family members etc then the power of Bitshares will become homogenised across the network. Besides, as long as consensus can be reached in favour of the majority of participants, then the corruption resistant consensus mechanism protects everyone.

And like xeroc says, as long as the rules continue to work in favour of the majority, many people no longer need bts at all. They can use its products secure in their financial freedom.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: logxing on May 19, 2015, 07:53:40 am
Ethereum got many attention because their vision is very BIG.
Does Bitshares have a killer feature can involve many programer, developer or entrepreneurial talent.
They can do something base on Bitshares, not work for Bitshares. It is ecosphere.
Is Bitshares turing on the plan list?
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: jakub on May 19, 2015, 09:32:16 am
Ethereum got many attention because their vision is very BIG.
Does Bitshares have a killer feature can involve many programer, developer or entrepreneurial talent.
They can do something base on Bitshares, not work for Bitshares. It is ecosphere.
I think it will take a long time till Ethereum can optimize their processing speed to a level needed to support bit-assets complexity.

Is Bitshares turing on the plan list?
Yes, BM once said the he would be looking into CIYAM (https://ciyam.org/at/) to make BitShares Turing complete as the next big step after 1.0 is released.
Below is BM's post alluding to this:

turing complete smart contracts which will be our LAST hard fork.

Is this something Bitshares will be working on alone or are you collaborating with Ian Knowles at CIYAM (http://ciyam.org/at/ (http://ciyam.org/at/))? He's scheduled to have the first cross-chain transaction on a mainnet complete before months end between Burst and Qora.

I have been in talks with Ian since the early days of BTS. I have reviewed his work and consider it superior to Ethereum.I would likely take an approach similar to his and adopt his code if it gains any traction and is proven. Performance is my primary consideration as well as simplicity.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: kenCode on May 19, 2015, 01:36:25 pm
BITSHARES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY
and never has been.
BitShares is a meritocracy, meaning that those who do the most work (like the workers, delegates, and witnesses) get the most power and control.
This is the structure.  If you want a democracy coin (every shareholder has an equal say even if they only own 1 Satoshi) then go somewhere else.  The BitShares community is only interested in those who are going to pull their own weight, and work hard, and contribute.  BitShares is not controlled by just anyone, it is controlled by those who give the most of themselves generously.  It is controlled by those who serve best.

 +5% +5% +5%
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: CLains on May 19, 2015, 03:48:17 pm
And let's not forget, even if you don't have a single bitshare* you can still speak your mind here and on mumble, influencing majority opinion on par with everyone else..

*Namedropping for SEO (and BitGold too!)
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: fuzzy on May 19, 2015, 07:32:44 pm
My chief concern is and always will be how well is BitShares sticking to the fundamental principles that brought me and many others to this ecosystem.
This is my chief concern as well.  But another concern I have is that we as a community will forget why we originally came here because we get impatient and depressed about unrealistic expectations not being met within unrealistic timelines.  We need to remember that it is the community and technology that will give this platform value...it is simply a matter of when if those two factors remain constant.

My primary technical concern is whether all of the sweeping changes will be perceived as overall positive or net negative by the community. It all hinges on the User eXperience. I am very uneasy about this. The team has not demonstrated the innovation and rate of improvement of frontend (UI) development compared with that of the infrastructure / backend. It clearly isn't where their passion lives. However, BM is heading up an exceptional team, and he realizes the importance and difficulty of creating a solid, positive UX. Will he be able to  manage and guide his team to produce a quality software product that the market wants? Will support be a killer after it's released (i.e. bugs)? Will he be able to acquire the necessary skills in UI / UX to pull this off? Will it take much longer than anticipated, causing loss of confidence if the "big release" doesn't happen until July or possibly even August?

100%  There is NOTHING more important to the success of the platform as a whole than the UX being perfect.  It should be developed in a way that makes it ridiculously simple for a User to quickly and easily use it.  I even think we should have 2 kinds of wallets: one for someone who wants to trade and one for the user who simply wants to be able to quickly buy BTS and a few main bitassets to hold/send/spend. 

It should be SO easy for someone to use it that they feel certain that the entire platform is polished and perfect.  The front end is what will create this. 
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Riverhead on May 19, 2015, 08:10:26 pm

There will be many wallets just like there are many web browsers. Each organization, like Moonstone, will be trying to make theirs the best. I can't wait :) .

As an aside while agree the UX is important I suspect the big traffic will come from B2B users who do all the transactions via script at the rate of thousands per block. Instead of thinking of a day trader trading bitAssets think of the millions of people around the world swiping their credit card, making micro payments in a game, executing automatic bill payments, etc. HUGE traffic. HUGE fees :D .

Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: fuzzy on May 19, 2015, 09:43:17 pm
I suspect the big traffic will come from B2B users who do all the transactions via script at the rate of thousands per block. Instead of thinking of a day trader trading bitAssets think of the millions of people around the world swiping their credit card, making micro payments in a game, executing automatic bill payments, etc. HUGE traffic. HUGE fees :D .

Agreed.
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: Thom on May 19, 2015, 10:44:00 pm
I even think we should have 2 kinds of wallets: one for someone who wants to trade and one for the user who simply wants to be able to quickly buy BTS and a few main bitassets to hold/send/spend. 

How different the approaches are will dictate whether separate wallet apps make more sense instead of a"UI Mode" preference option that provides different UI / UX personas. From a product support and development perspective separate product apps can really increase costs substantially. If the code is structured well, with a good API, it should be possible to have radically different UXs to suit traders, B2B users or people that basically just want a better version of paypal.

But you have to really know who your target audience is and what they want as well as what they need to build a good UX. I was reading a thread here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16406.0.html') on the forum started today where someone was attempting to gather feedback on the shortcomings of the current client UX. It's a good start, but IMO an ad hoc approach like that won't result in a quality UX for each of the users we're trying to target. Identifying the target demographics and their needs is crucially important.

I do think
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: cass on May 19, 2015, 11:06:32 pm
I even think we should have 2 kinds of wallets: one for someone who wants to trade and one for the user who simply wants to be able to quickly buy BTS and a few main bitassets to hold/send/spend. 

How different the approaches are will dictate whether separate wallet apps make more sense instead of a"UI Mode" preference option that provides different UI / UX personas. From a product support and development perspective separate product apps can really increase costs substantially. If the code is structured well, with a good API, it should be possible to have radically different UXs to suit traders, B2B users or people that basically just want a better version of paypal.

But you have to really know who your target audience is and what they want as well as what they need to build a good UX. I was reading a thread here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16406.0.html') on the forum started today where someone was attempting to gather feedback on the shortcomings of the current client UX. It's a good start, but IMO an ad hoc approach like that won't result in a quality UX for each of the users we're trying to target. Identifying the target demographics and their needs is crucially important.

I do think

 +5%
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 20, 2015, 06:16:25 am
I even think we should have 2 kinds of wallets: one for someone who wants to trade and one for the user who simply wants to be able to quickly buy BTS and a few main bitassets to hold/send/spend. 

How different the approaches are will dictate whether separate wallet apps make more sense instead of a"UI Mode" preference option that provides different UI / UX personas. From a product support and development perspective separate product apps can really increase costs substantially. If the code is structured well, with a good API, it should be possible to have radically different UXs to suit traders, B2B users or people that basically just want a better version of paypal.

But you have to really know who your target audience is and what they want as well as what they need to build a good UX. I was reading a thread here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16406.0.html') on the forum started today where someone was attempting to gather feedback on the shortcomings of the current client UX. It's a good start, but IMO an ad hoc approach like that won't result in a quality UX for each of the users we're trying to target. Identifying the target demographics and their needs is crucially important.

I do think

 +5%

With the powerful API it should also be possible to add BitShares to odoo or SAP
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: kenCode on May 20, 2015, 07:51:37 am
With the powerful API it should also be possible to add BitShares to odoo or SAP

Hey xeroc, if you have an interest in working on the api for accounting and crm, I can put you in contact with Eibhin O. (you met him at our first meetup I think). I know he'd make a great beta-tester too. Lmk thanx, -ken
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on May 20, 2015, 07:54:08 am
With the powerful API it should also be possible to add BitShares to odoo or SAP

Hey xeroc, if you have an interest in working on the api for accounting and crm, I can put you in contact with Eibhin O. (you met him at our first meetup I think). I know he'd make a great beta-tester too. Lmk thanx, -ken
Thanks for the offer .. once I have time for this I can approach you guys again ..
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: mirrax on May 20, 2015, 03:29:42 pm
Quote
BITSHARES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY

and never has been.

BitShares is a meritocracy, meaning that those who do the most work (like the workers, delegates, and witnesses) get the most power and control.

Never again say that BitShares is a democracy.  It is just plain false.

Those who contribute (work or donate capital), get a place at the table.  Freeloaders, and lazy people have no power.

This is the structure.  If you want a democracy coin (every shareholder has an equal say even if they only own 1 Satoshi) then go somewhere else.  The BitShares community is only interested in those who are going to pull their own weight, and work hard, and contribute.  BitShares is not controlled by just anyone, it is controlled by those who give the most of themselves generously.  It is controlled by those who serve best.

Nicely said!

And Hi Fuzzy, it is my honor to be here.
This coin is to interesting to ignore  ;)
Title: Re: In preparations for the "big" announcement
Post by: xeroc on June 08, 2015, 06:25:38 pm
The answers to the questions raise in this thread are given here:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16781.0.html#msg214551