BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on August 15, 2014, 06:06:29 pm

Title: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 15, 2014, 06:06:29 pm
This week I am meeting with Vitalik to discuss a partnership between our two projects.  We spent several hours last night and 5 hours to day talking about blockchain technology and challenges we both face.   I am happy to report that we are finding some common ground and are planning more regular collaboration.

Some of the things we have discussed is:

Moving Ethereum to DPOS
Honoring AGS/PTS with some of the stake saved by not mining Ether.
Distributing the Mining Rewards via Delegates
Improving the performance of Ethereum
BitAssets, DNS, and other market algorithms.

Vitalik seems to be of the opinion that DPOS is the way to go and the best overall compromise.  He appears to recognize proof of work as dead and I have shown him that the "nothing at stake" argument does not apply to DPOS.    We will be working to improve upon DPOS.

With respect to Turing Completeness and claims that Ether can do everything and anything, we had a deep discussion regarding the lack of first class data structures (heaps & trees) in Ether and even had some discussion on alternative abstraction on their data store.    DPOS could significantly enhance the types of contracts ethereum could run by greatly increasing speed and effectively eliminating the potential for chain reorganizations. 

Effectively my goal is to make both projects better and to secure AGS/PTS holders a stake in Ether.  Our two communities can then work together to fill the various niches in the DAC ecosystem as we both agree that in its current incarnation Ethereum is not well suited to implementing many of the algorithms we have proposed for BitShares DACs.

Other areas of potential collaboration is our wallet technology.  Our architectures are very similar and there is potential we may be able to combine resources here.

Vatalik is a smart guy and the two of us working together really helps sharpen both of us. 

Nothing final at this stage, but I am optimistic a lot of good will come out of this.



Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Empirical1 on August 15, 2014, 06:09:35 pm
 +5%  +5%  That sounds great! Thanks for letting us know!

I guess Vitalik must be happy for us to share that info? - That Vitalik/Ethereum is strongly considering DPOS?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Riverhead on August 15, 2014, 06:11:36 pm
Awesome!!!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: bytemaster on August 15, 2014, 06:12:28 pm
+5%  +5%  That sounds great! Thanks for letting us know!

I guess Vitalik must be happy for us to share that info? - That Vitalik/Ethereum is strongly considering DPOS?

Vitalik and I are not very "political" and mostly care about the best technology for the job.   I am merely expressing my perspective on the conversation and will let him speak for himself.   
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Empirical1 on August 15, 2014, 06:14:33 pm
+5%  +5%  That sounds great! Thanks for letting us know!

I guess Vitalik must be happy for us to share that info? - That Vitalik/Ethereum is strongly considering DPOS?

Vitalik and I are not very "political" and mostly care about the best technology for the job.   I am merely expressing my perspective on the conversation and will let him speak for himself.   

 +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Shentist on August 15, 2014, 06:16:45 pm
for me you both are the brightest stars in crypto and if we good join forces with ethereum both projects could be improve a lot. so you are the alpha and the omega in bitshares  +5% +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: testz on August 15, 2014, 06:25:09 pm
5 x  +5%  :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: xeroc on August 15, 2014, 06:40:28 pm
holy moly .. that sounds soooo amazing ... good job you two ..
BM as usual focuses on hard facts and technology instead of politics and blahblah .. +5% awesome
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: soniq on August 15, 2014, 06:43:49 pm
double damn!!   great news   +5% to the infinate power
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: bobmaloney on August 15, 2014, 06:45:44 pm
(http://is.gd/00SLyc)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Xeldal on August 15, 2014, 06:57:35 pm
Music to my ears. This is fantastic!  A dream team.  +5% 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: xeroc on August 15, 2014, 07:00:28 pm
Too bad AdamBL is gone for the dogeparty .. :D

pretty sure he would have had an opinion on this :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Empirical1 on August 15, 2014, 07:04:31 pm
for me you both are the brightest stars in crypto and if we good join forces with ethereum both projects could be improve a lot. so you are the alpha and the omega in bitshares  +5% +5%

 +5% 'Two heads are better than one' and now arguably the two best heads in crypto are working together for mutual benefit! It doesn't get much better than that! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9VEKdoCkA


I re-posted it here... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740684.0
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: luckybit on August 15, 2014, 07:09:49 pm
This week I am meeting with Vitalik to discuss a partnership between our two projects.  We spent several hours last night and 5 hours to day talking about blockchain technology and challenges we both face.   I am happy to report that we are finding some common ground and are planning more regular collaboration.

Some of the things we have discussed is:

Moving Ethereum to DPOS
Honoring AGS/PTS with some of the stake saved by not mining Ether.
Distributing the Mining Rewards via Delegates
Improving the performance of Ethereum
BitAssets, DNS, and other market algorithms.

Vitalik seems to be of the opinion that DPOS is the way to go and the best overall compromise.  He appears to recognize proof of work as dead and I have shown him that the "nothing at stake" argument does not apply to DPOS.    We will be working to improve upon DPOS.

With respect to Turing Completeness and claims that Ether can do everything and anything, we had a deep discussion regarding the lack of first class data structures (heaps & trees) in Ether and even had some discussion on alternative abstraction on their data store.    DPOS could significantly enhance the types of contracts ethereum could run by greatly increasing speed and effectively eliminating the potential for chain reorganizations. 

Effectively my goal is to make both projects better and to secure AGS/PTS holders a stake in Ether.  Our two communities can then work together to fill the various niches in the DAC ecosystem as we both agree that in its current incarnation Ethereum is not well suited to implementing many of the algorithms we have proposed for BitShares DACs.

Other areas of potential collaboration is our wallet technology.  Our architectures are very similar and there is potential we may be able to combine resources here.

Vatalik is a smart guy and the two of us working together really helps sharpen both of us. 

Nothing final at this stage, but I am optimistic a lot of good will come out of this.

 +5% +5% +5%

+5%  +5%  That sounds great! Thanks for letting us know!

I guess Vitalik must be happy for us to share that info? - That Vitalik/Ethereum is strongly considering DPOS?

Vitalik and I are not very "political" and mostly care about the best technology for the job.   I am merely expressing my perspective on the conversation and will let him speak for himself.   

That is something I have in common with you two and a position I respect.

With DPoS if they decide to go with that they can use virtual mining or any mechanism they want to attract miners and with virtual mining I don't see the really bad aspects yet it preserves a lot of the good.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: santaclause102 on August 15, 2014, 07:15:10 pm
Quote
BM as usual focuses on hard facts and technology instead of politics and blahblah .. +5% awesome
+5% +5% +5%

Thanks for sharing it like this on the fly!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: bytemaster on August 15, 2014, 07:20:08 pm

Too bad AdamBL is gone for the dogeparty .. :D

pretty sure he would have had an opinion on this :)

When you lie Down with dogs...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: fuzzy on August 15, 2014, 07:21:06 pm
Vitalik seems like a legit guy.  Always saw him as one of the really awesome people in the project.  And to hear this about his opinions on POW being Dead... is music to the ears. 

It is nice to see that is under consideration.  DPOS needs to work on figuring out this voting thing though in some way that scales and makes it worth a user's time to be as informed as they can. 

Never thought I would say this, but I may actually purchase ether if this becomes more than just a fling..

for me you both are the brightest stars in crypto and if we good join forces with ethereum both projects could be improve a lot. so you are the alpha and the omega in bitshares  +5% +5%

As much as it feels like kissing BM's a$$, no statement seems more true.  Some people are really that good.   


Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: metalallen on August 15, 2014, 07:44:23 pm
Amazing! +5% +5%

Looking forward the REAL thing to come.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: liondani on August 15, 2014, 07:46:04 pm
 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

(http://melotel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/excited.jpg)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Stan on August 15, 2014, 08:28:22 pm
(http://bitshares.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/V-Visits1.png)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: onceuponatime on August 15, 2014, 08:35:11 pm
I was wondering what kind of T-shirt Toast like to wear. Now I know  :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Pocket Sand on August 15, 2014, 08:38:30 pm
 +5% +5% +5% - This is exciting news
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 15, 2014, 08:43:39 pm
I was wondering what kind of T-shirt Toast like to wear. Now I know  :)
+5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Ben Mason on August 15, 2014, 08:46:08 pm
Best news I've heard all week.....strength in depth  +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: xeroc on August 15, 2014, 08:50:44 pm
I was wondering what kind of T-shirt Toast like to wear. Now I know  :)
you made me lol :) +5%
thats probably gonna get a running gag :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: sfinder on August 15, 2014, 08:56:33 pm
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

i like this joke. LOL


Too bad AdamBL is gone for the dogeparty .. :D

pretty sure he would have had an opinion on this :)

When you lie Down with dogs...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: sschechter on August 15, 2014, 09:09:19 pm
 +5% +5% +5% +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: liondani on August 15, 2014, 10:41:49 pm
How about to propose them to extend the ethereum funding period and use the bitshares platform for doing that?*
They should give all  ethers from the beginning due to DPOS implementation instead of POW... (or are they thinking about virtual  mining when they start someday after the initial fundraise ?)

*If I remember right the "terms and conditions" they are "allowed" to do something like this.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: donkeypong on August 15, 2014, 11:12:23 pm
Excellent news! Ethereum, DAC?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Akado on August 15, 2014, 11:20:34 pm
I think this is a good thing. Together we can build something better! Im just wondering if this might hurt us? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=707237.0 i don't know to what extent do people think like that, if it's only a few or not. And there is always people who jump to conclusions or more suspicious about things (specially in the crypto world) but I hope people dont put us in the same bag as I haven't heard anything bad about this project and hopefully things will continue this way
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: lucky331 on August 15, 2014, 11:39:02 pm
interesting.  i also read that vitalik also had talks with arthur britto of ripple labs. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 16, 2014, 12:56:41 am
Look back through the history of bitcointalk and you'll see bytemaster defending himself against the same sort of nonsense. Do your own research, get to know the devs as best you can and leave these threads for the tmz crowd.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: charleshoskinson on August 16, 2014, 01:06:04 am
That's great, now you need to talk to the person actually in charge of Ethereum- Dr. Wood.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bitbro on August 16, 2014, 01:09:13 am

That's great, now you need to talk to the person actually in charge of Ethereum- Dr. Wood.

If this happens, you can eat your words hosk.  Please take credit for the cameras tho, we know you will anyway
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: charleshoskinson on August 16, 2014, 01:10:48 am
Quote
If this happens, you can eat your words hosk.  Please take credit for the cameras tho, we know you will anyway

Take credit for the cameras? Man you've been eating some pretty powerful dogfood Bitbro
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Empirical1 on August 16, 2014, 01:22:15 am
I think this is a good thing. Together we can build something better! Im just wondering if this might hurt us? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=707237.0 i don't know to what extent do people think like that, if it's only a few or not. And there is always people who jump to conclusions or more suspicious about things (specially in the crypto world) but I hope people dont put us in the same bag as I haven't heard anything bad about this project and hopefully things will continue this way

They're each their own thing really & in here they just seem to be about finding the best solutions to solving problems which is probably best.

Even though I'm not an investor in Ethereum. It is the mainstream face of 'Bitcoin 2.0' & If Ethereum ends up saying Bitcoin doesn't work as a base for their vision of 2.0 but DPOS does, that's quite powerful.

Perhaps a lot more than that. We all know POW is dead but what about when the market realises that most 2.0 is going to built on DPOS?

I think BitShares is going all the way regardless but these strong partnerships in areas of mutual benefit can only add to that I feel.


 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 16, 2014, 01:24:16 am
Good news !  +5%

Quote
Effectively my goal is to make both projects better and to secure AGS/PTS holders a stake in Ether.

Will the AGS/PTS stake be at least 10% allocation each?
Also, could you elaborate on Ethereum's investment relationship with Goldman Sachs and how/if that would effect future Bitshares projects?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: charleshoskinson on August 16, 2014, 01:26:50 am
Quote
Will the AGS/PTS stake be at least 10% allocation each?
Also, could you elaborate on Ethereum's investment relationship with Goldman Sachs and how/if that would effect future Bitshares projects?

Ethereum does not have and never has had a relationship with Goldman Sachs. It's a malicious rumor spread by people who don't like the project. There were two former Goldman Sachs employees helping ethereum during its early days. Both left the bank decades ago. Let this fucking FUD die man.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 16, 2014, 01:29:17 am
We have had some really good discussions that have lead to improvements in both our systems.   The first step is to reach agreement on technical approach and the next step is to work on community buy-in.

Obviously we need to win over Gavin and other Ethereum developers and they are currently not convinced according to V.   Primary argument so far is that DPOS creates 2 classes of users and that it is not "elegant" and is "over specialized for known attacks".

We will be holding a joint meeting with the Eth. devs this week to work through these concerns and attempt to weigh them against the other imperfect alternatives.   

In any event V. and I have plans to meet every couple of weeks for a brainstorming session and hopefully record our discussions as we work through complex issues in the space.

One of the major issues is the need for Merkle trees in chain databases.  There are a lot of trade offs and good discussion that will benefit both of us and the greater community.

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 16, 2014, 01:32:45 am
Good news !  +5%

Quote
Effectively my goal is to make both projects better and to secure AGS/PTS holders a stake in Ether.

Will the AGS/PTS stake be at least 10% allocation each?
Also, could you elaborate on Ethereum's investment relationship with Goldman Sachs and how/if that would effect future Bitshares projects?

We have not discussed allocations or anything.  It is unlikely they could use our codebase and instead would probably just use the algorithm. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Stan on August 16, 2014, 01:45:42 am
All I know is that when stuff like this starts happening on a Hot August Night in the deserted streets of Raleigh, NC you get cold fusion, flux capacitors, and warp drives...

(http://bitshares.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/DV-with-inset.png)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 16, 2014, 01:56:01 am
One of the things we have discussed is lessons learned from Ethereum and BTSX and ways to generalize things better:

1) We agree that smart contracts are useful
2) We agree that smart contracts + BitUSD are very powerful
3) I would like to see a full up relational DB with SQL support as the basic abstraction for the block chain.
    a)  This would allow constraints to be placed on the tables / rows
    c)  This would make indexes easy to maintain
4) I would want to use a lua scripting engine to validate transactions relative to the SQL database
    a) Ethereum currently runs at 1.3 Mhz with their C++ interpreter, storage access via level db is the most expensive operation right now.
    b) I think the data set should be kept in RAM validated by delegates.   Delegates may need $15K servers at scale, but that should be reasonable.
5) One of the major slowdowns for Eth. is the use of merkel trees to support light-weight proofs.  I would do away with this feature.
    a) On a proof of stake chain you cannot validate block headers independent of block contents because you can not use POW as a proxy for trust.
    b) With DPOS + Bonded validation agents you can get cryptographic proofs good enough for light weight clients.  Delegates can lose their job for lying.
    c) Merk. trees help serve as a "double check" on the "deterministic application of transactions", but otherwise are unnecessary.  The check can be performed independent of the consensus algorithm.

As you can see the idea that Eth. represents can benefit significantly by working with our team and we benefit from their challenges as well.   Whether or not Eth. implements DPOS you can bet that V. and I will probably keep pushing the technology forward for future chains.
 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: charleshoskinson on August 16, 2014, 02:06:34 am
Quote
I would like to see a full up relational DB with SQL support as the basic abstraction for the block chain.

A blockchain is at its core a functional database with variation over time not place. Something like Datomic seems to be a significantly better fit.  At the very least the entire DB market is moving into the NoSQL realm. Why not chase something like Mongo and BSON style storage?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 16, 2014, 02:08:38 am
Quote
I would like to see a full up relational DB with SQL support as the basic abstraction for the block chain.

A blockchain is at its core a functional database with variation over time not place. Something like Datomic seems to be a significantly better fit.  At the very least the entire DB market is moving into the NoSQL realm. Why not chase something like Mongo and BSON style storage?

I haven't evaluated all options, but clearly it needs to be "in-memory" and dynamic.   
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: charleshoskinson on August 16, 2014, 02:10:15 am
Quote
I haven't evaluated all options, but clearly it needs to be "in-memory" and dynamic.

Redis is a very nice in memory database. What I'm most interested in is the notion of blockchain sharding.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bitmeat on August 16, 2014, 02:12:48 am
4) I would want to use a lua scripting engine to validate transactions relative to the SQL database
    a) Ethereum currently runs at 1.3 Mhz with their C++ interpreter, storage access via level db is the most expensive operation right now.
    b) I think the data set should be kept in RAM validated by delegates.   Delegates may need $15K servers at scale, but that should be reasonable.

Good choice! LuaJIT is shown to be faster than C/C++ in various cases:

https://gist.github.com/spion/3049314
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bitmeat on August 16, 2014, 02:17:28 am
Quote
I haven't evaluated all options, but clearly it needs to be "in-memory" and dynamic.

Redis is a very nice in memory database. What I'm most interested in is the notion of blockchain sharding.

I've been looking at Redis closely and love the direction it has been going.

It would be amazing if someone comes up with a way to run Redis nodes as a crypto. Think self-hosted, indexed blockchain AND various user data (smart contracts/apps/you name it).

You get StorJ/MaidSAFE + network stability.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 16, 2014, 05:26:32 am
Ethereum does not have and never has had a relationship with Goldman Sachs. It's a malicious rumor spread by people who don't like the project. There were two former Goldman Sachs employees helping ethereum during its early days. Both left the bank decades ago. Let this fucking FUD die man.

Cool, I asked out of ignorance not out of disrespect so thanks for responding.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 16, 2014, 05:40:10 am
We have had some really good discussions that have lead to improvements in both our systems.   The first step is to reach agreement on technical approach and the next step is to work on community buy-in.

Obviously we need to win over Gavin and other Ethereum developers and they are currently not convinced according to V.   Primary argument so far is that DPOS creates 2 classes of users and that it is not "elegant" and is "over specialized for known attacks".

We will be holding a joint meeting with the Eth. devs this week to work through these concerns and attempt to weigh them against the other imperfect alternatives.   

In any event V. and I have plans to meet every couple of weeks for a brainstorming session and hopefully record our discussions as we work through complex issues in the space.

One of the major issues is the need for Merkle trees in chain databases.  There are a lot of trade offs and good discussion that will benefit both of us and the greater community.

This is very exciting news- looking forward to hearing any recordings of the discussions!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: BTCjesus on August 16, 2014, 07:04:22 am
(http://is.gd/00SLyc)

IF these two projects can collaborate I think it would be for the best. Both projects stand to gain tremendously by working together than competing against each other. I would love to invest into both projects if they can find a good common bridge they can build from!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on August 16, 2014, 07:44:11 am
This week I am meeting with Vitalik to discuss a partnership between our two projects.  We spent several hours last night and 5 hours to day talking about blockchain technology and challenges we both face.   I am happy to report that we are finding some common ground and are planning more regular collaboration.

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/wltz.gif)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: cass on August 16, 2014, 08:27:55 am
just amazing  +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: vegolino on August 16, 2014, 10:40:26 am
For me this is a dream come true  :)  +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: menga on August 16, 2014, 10:54:04 am
What using go and aerospike ( http://www.aerospike.com/  and  http://www.aerospike.com/blog/go-aerospike-a-perfect-match/ ).

Go language ( http://golang.org/ ) has a lot of qualities

* Astonishing performance
* Strong typing
* Asynchronous, multithreaded, multicore programming
* Clear, concise syntax

Ethereum is mainly written in Go.

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: liondani on August 16, 2014, 11:25:41 am
All I know is that when stuff like this starts happening on a Hot August Night in the deserted streets of Raleigh, NC you get cold fusion, flux capacitors, and warp drives...

(http://bitshares.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/DV-with-inset.png)

dpos is a great upgrade security wise for the blockchain technology...
But what about your personal security on this real world guys?
Hope your photographer is behind you not only to take pictures, but because they are "watching your backs"  ;)

(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/05/13/icon_games3_may14,0.jpg)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: fuzzy on August 16, 2014, 11:31:09 am
(http://is.gd/00SLyc)

IF these two projects can collaborate I think it would be for the best. Both projects stand to gain tremendously by working together than competing against each other. I would love to invest into both projects if they can find a good common bridge they can build from!

all that has ever bothered me about ethereum was the one chain to rule them all approach, coupled with pow. If they are planning to work with bitshares, perhaps that approach has a chance at abandonment.  At that point id gladly speculate in the project (though it becomes much less of a speculation in thos case).
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: vbuterin on August 16, 2014, 12:04:40 pm
Thanks for the very interesting conversations and day together bitshares team. It was definitely very useful in our thinking on native extensibility strategies; I was glad to see how similar some of our thoughts and some of our problems have been, and I hope my ideas on ring signatures for secret ballots and bitusd interest rates helped :)

(I'm still not convinced of bitusd's long-term viability without introducing schellingcoin or delegate price feeds + dynamic interest rates, but it's a very exciting experiment and I'll be glad to be wrong if it succeeds!)

I have no particular love for PoW; the ASIC-resistant PoW algo that Vlad is working on with a few others right now is looking great, but I have a few worries in the back of my mind about its long-term viability. I think that most chains which try to have both PoW and finite supply may be living on borrowed time, as we have seen with dogecoin once it very quickly got close to its maximum it had too little hashpower to maintain itself. Gav agrees that moving beyond PoW is optimal; we're currently looking at hybrid transactions-as-PoS, and I like many aspects of DPOS and I really respect the long amount of effort and thought that led to it, although I can also see how it comes from a somewhat different philosophy than the one we're used to.

Quote
interesting. i also read that vitalik also had talks with arthur britto of ripple labs.

News flash: the core teams of most of the so-called "competing" 2.0 projects are actually on pretty good terms with each other. We all want to be complementary. I think Ripple is doing great work on setting up bridges between crypto and fiat and Codius is interesting technology and could be quite nicely integrated into ethereum. There are a couple bad actors that are quite hostile to anything that does not entrench BTC as the one cryptotoken to rule them allâ„¢, but we've had open communication with most of the major groups; Bitshares is the one we haven't yet and I am glad that we have started to break the ice there.

Quote
That's great, now you need to talk to the person actually in charge of Ethereum- Dr. Wood.

Gav isn't "actually in charge" more so than myself, but any major protocol change does indeed require consensus among myself, Gav and Jeff and of course the community. I only speak for myself.

Quote
Effectively my goal is to make both projects better and to secure AGS/PTS holders a stake in Ether

Just to make this absolutely clear, as Dan said later on in the thread, we have not formally discussed allocations. Speaking generally, no formal commitments at this point have been made by anyone about anything; the things that Dan listed as topics we discussed are just topics we discussed. I as an individual could see something being reasonable if it substitutes a portion of the mining allocation so our annual issuance never exceeds 0.26x the genesis quantity, and is a finite one-time allocation and not a permanent annual dividend, but I strongly respect the feelings of the community, other developers on the project and potential legal issues.

If we are going for a paradigm where developers can extend ethereum in exchange for ether allocation, it would be ideal to follow our philosophy of generalization and not just special-case one team but explicitly say "this is the social contract: anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Gentso1 on August 16, 2014, 12:27:47 pm
For all the differences  the projects have I believe you have even more in common. You guys seem to agree on many items in principle its just the way you are attempting to solve the problems that are different. The above photo of you two just walking and talking, working to solve the issue's that both platforms are working towards is truly great.

I don't claim to know all the in's and out's of all the technology being used by both parties but when 2 very intelligent minds can get together and both be excited about the meeting and pull away problem solving ideas in just 1 night........imagine what 2 great teams could do working with each other on a daily basis, or better yet re imagine it ;D.

(cliff notes, this is some unicorn,Philosopher's stone, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow shit)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: donkeypong on August 16, 2014, 03:45:15 pm
Someone in the Peercoin Reddit sub just posted this. He's suggesting that Dan, Vitalik, and Sunny work together. Whether that happens or not, this thread is good exposure for Bitshares on the Peercoin sub. Please chime in with your best group hug:

http://www.reddit.com/r/peercoin/comments/2dq2wi/bitshares_and_ethereum_are_considering/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/peercoin/comments/2dq2wi/bitshares_and_ethereum_are_considering/)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Technologov on August 16, 2014, 03:46:40 pm
The main objection and concern I have for Proof-Of-Stake, is that it disallows mining.
It is impossible to mine NXT coin, for example,  if you don't own any.
This blocks the community from growth.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: pendragon3 on August 16, 2014, 03:53:47 pm
Someone in the Peercoin Reddit sub just posted this. He's suggesting that Dan, Vitalik, and Sunny work together. Whether that happens or not, this thread is good exposure for Bitshares on the Peercoin sub. Please chime in with your best group hug:

http://www.reddit.com/r/peercoin/comments/2dq2wi/bitshares_and_ethereum_are_considering/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/peercoin/comments/2dq2wi/bitshares_and_ethereum_are_considering/)

Informal collaboration would be fine. A formal partnership may not be workable, as Sunny seems to not be one to show his id or face publicly.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: clout on August 16, 2014, 03:58:32 pm
The main objection and concern I have for Proof-Of-Stake, is that it disallows mining.
It is impossible to mine NXT coin, for example,  if you don't own any.
This blocks the community from growth.

do you mine bitcoin?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: CLains on August 16, 2014, 03:59:30 pm
In any event V. and I have plans to meet every couple of weeks for a brainstorming session and hopefully record our discussions as we work through complex issues in the space.

Knew you guys would be a great fit! You deserve to be invigorated :D
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: luckybit on August 16, 2014, 04:18:08 pm
The main objection and concern I have for Proof-Of-Stake, is that it disallows mining.
It is impossible to mine NXT coin, for example,  if you don't own any.
This blocks the community from growth.

do you mine bitcoin?

There is a plan to allow people to mine Bitshares. You can virtually mine PoS so even miners have it better with PoS because with virtual mining you can actually mine stuff which is beneficial for society.

You can mine BOINC and earn Bitshares if we set it up. This way you could search for aliens or fold protein while you earn Bitshares. The way virtual mining works is you do some computation and then it sells that computation to buy Bitshares.

That computation does not have to be Proof of Work, it's not restricted to cryptocurrency.

And here is an example: http://www.foldingcoin.net/

I would much rather use my computing power to fold protein than to do some pointless SHA-256 hashing.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 16, 2014, 04:35:01 pm

I would much rather use my computing power to fold protein than to do some pointless SHA-256 hashing.


 +5%  That was my attraction to XPM. The coin minting was just a side affect of the primary purpose (pun not intended). I haven't looked into other uses of hashing power (like folding proteins) but it makes sense if they agree to buy coins at certain price. Effectively renting your hashing power. Maybe that's the way it already works. If it is than I have a few extra PC's kicking about (old mining rigs) that could be helping science.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Pheonike on August 16, 2014, 05:28:07 pm
That would be a great project to create a BOINC DAC if feasible.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 16, 2014, 09:05:50 pm

Quote from: pendragon3
Informal collaboration would be fine. A formal partnership may not be workable, as Sunny seems to not be one to show his id or face publicly.

Yeah I agree.  Sunny is a brilliant developer but he is very careful about maintaining his anonymity.  I could see him acting as a contractor but not as a core team member in collaboration.. I'd love to be proven wrong though
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 16, 2014, 09:54:34 pm
Quote
That's great, now you need to talk to the person actually in charge of Ethereum- Dr. Wood.

Gav isn't "actually in charge" more so than myself, but any major protocol change does indeed require consensus among myself, Gav and Jeff and of course the community. I only speak for myself.

Great to see you on the board, V!! 
Unfortunately, it seems you do only speak for yourself... Gav seems to indirectly opposed the Bitshares approach as mentioned in his recent blog post (emphasis mine):  http://insightsintoamodernworld.blogspot.de/2014/08/ethereum-collaborations.html

Quote
With Ethereum being not just an open-source project but actually openly developed, we welcome help from all projects. That said, we fundamentally reject any notion of a special arrangement with any other projects, especially those with profit motives.

No partnership nor any sort of special conferencing is happening with any members of any other projects. We are quite capable of judging technologies on their intrinsic merits. Any communication that happens happens, we would hope, for the benefit of the entire community in the true spirit of enlightened discourse.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: santaclause102 on August 16, 2014, 10:51:24 pm
anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".
Welcome Vitalik!  :)
Would you mind to expand on this and say it in more simple words?

Quote
Great to see you on the board, V!! 
Unfortunately, it seems you do only speak for yourself... Gav seems to indirectly opposed the Bitshares approach as mentioned in his recent blog post (emphasis mine):  http://insightsintoamodernworld.blogspot.de/2014/08/ethereum-collaborations.html
Gavin also has an ether stake which he can sell later.
Noting wrong about a profit motive imo though for a few reasons. One is: (Especially as a entrepreneur) making a living and making a profit is hard to distinguish. 
If you want to reduce it to the motive itself (apart from making money or not) this is something that no one knows but you yourself and maybe even only your subconscious part knows.The only legitimate way to claim that you don't have a MOTIVE to profit is to donate everything but what you need to keep your living standard (assuming you could have found work which is as profitable as before).
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 16, 2014, 11:38:22 pm
anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".
Welcome Vitalik!  :)
Would you mind to expand on this and say it in more simple words?


Pretty sure he is saying ethereum could be forked or cloned at some point when there is a divergence in community consensus over something like this.

It will be open source, so the success of ethereum (and any fork/clone) can attempt to exist on its own.  I giess this is very similar to what the sharedrop principle provides for altcoins...where
Altcoins build their own "DACs" to and honor their holders' stakes in their coin as a means of competing with bitcoin. They are all clones of bitcoin essentially and thus must distinguish themselves from the "main" project.  Pretty sure if vitalik built a version of ethereum with the cost aavi gs of DPOS (or something like it), he'd get a large portion of the community's backing. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 17, 2014, 01:23:05 am
Here's a Reddit thread asking questions about DPOS:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2dr64v/explanation_for_delegated_proof_of_stake/

Might be a good one to upvote and add content!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 17, 2014, 01:37:35 am
The main objection and concern I have for Proof-Of-Stake, is that it disallows mining.
It is impossible to mine NXT coin, for example,  if you don't own any.
This blocks the community from growth.

do you mine bitcoin?

There is a plan to allow people to mine Bitshares. You can virtually mine PoS so even miners have it better with PoS because with virtual mining you can actually mine stuff which is beneficial for society.

You can mine BOINC and earn Bitshares if we set it up. This way you could search for aliens or fold protein while you earn Bitshares. The way virtual mining works is you do some computation and then it sells that computation to buy Bitshares.

That computation does not have to be Proof of Work, it's not restricted to cryptocurrency.

And here is an example: http://www.foldingcoin.net/

I would much rather use my computing power to fold protein than to do some pointless SHA-256 hashing.

How did I overlook this post?  As always, luckybit, astounding idea.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: liondani on August 17, 2014, 03:33:39 am
I giess this is very similar to what the sharedrop principle provides for altcoins...where
Altcoins build their own "DACs" to and honor their holders' stakes in their coin as a means of competing with bitcoin. They are all clones of bitcoin essentially and thus must distinguish themselves from the "main" project.  Pretty sure if vitalik built a version of ethereum with the cost aavi gs of DPOS (or something like it), he'd get a large portion of the community's backing.

 +5% +5% +5%

EXACTLY!


this quote from BM fits here, isn't it?

Whether or not Eth. implements DPOS you can bet that V. and I will probably keep pushing the technology forward for future chains.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership
Post by: Brent.Allsop on August 17, 2014, 03:39:24 am
+5%  +5%  That sounds great! Thanks for letting us know!

I guess Vitalik must be happy for us to share that info? - That Vitalik/Ethereum is strongly considering DPOS?
+5%, +5%, +5%, +5%, +5%

Fantastic Dan!!  The way you do things like this, co-operate without fear or reservation, is why I am betting so heavily on you!  Vitalic may be as smart (but I doubt it), but he doesn't have the age and broader perspective as Dan.

Thank you thank you thank you.

Brent Allsop
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Brent.Allsop on August 17, 2014, 03:45:54 am

This is the obvious reason why the market cap of Bitshares is launching like a rocket.

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: santaclause102 on August 17, 2014, 09:24:05 am
anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".
Welcome Vitalik!  :)
Would you mind to expand on this and say it in more simple words?


Pretty sure he is saying ethereum could be forked or cloned at some point when there is a divergence in community consensus over something like this.

It will be open source, so the success of ethereum (and any fork/clone) can attempt to exist on its own.  I giess this is very similar to what the sharedrop principle provides for altcoins...where
Altcoins build their own "DACs" to and honor their holders' stakes in their coin as a means of competing with bitcoin. They are all clones of bitcoin essentially and thus must distinguish themselves from the "main" project.  Pretty sure if vitalik built a version of ethereum with the cost aavi gs of DPOS (or something like it), he'd get a large portion of the community's backing.
It was just the numbers which I didnt get....
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 17, 2014, 09:32:17 am
It's like the crypto version of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs hanging out :).
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: xeroc on August 17, 2014, 09:55:15 am
It's like the crypto version of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs hanging out :).
LOL!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: cass on August 17, 2014, 12:38:56 pm
It's like the crypto version of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs hanging out :).
LOL!

 :P
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: cass on August 17, 2014, 12:41:02 pm
Thanks for the very interesting conversations and day together bitshares team. It was definitely very useful in our thinking on native extensibility strategies; I was glad to see how similar some of our thoughts and some of our problems have been...

Welcome Vitalik, great to see you join here on forum!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 17, 2014, 12:50:11 pm
So far the response from the Ethereum community has been very negative.  I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised since it's the "one chain to rule them all" fan club but it's still disheartening to see such vocal closed mindedness.

I'm thrilled to see Vitalik and Dan have a good professional relationship and am looking forward to hearing more about the challenges faced by both parties in developing these ecosystems.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 17, 2014, 01:11:38 pm
So far the response from the Ethereum community has been very negative.  I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised since it's the "one chain to rule them all" fan club but it's still disheartening to see such vocal closed mindedness.

I'm thrilled to see Vitalik and Dan have a good professional relationship and am looking forward to hearing more about the challenges faced by both parties in developing these ecosystems.


Reminds me of something I read once about (I think) .Net, "This will be open platform once everyone is running Windows" :) .


To be fair given the large amount of effort, time, and planning a project of this scope requires I can understand them being a little defensive.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 17, 2014, 01:13:00 pm
anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".


Release a version of ethereum (N.0 for N>1) meaning Version N.0, with N greater than one.  This can be taken to mean Ethereum 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc...only Ethereum 1.0 has the current obligations.  Ethereum version 2.0, 3.0...etc could be created by making your own additions to your version of ethereum (thus making it your 2.0 version of ethereum--there may be many 2.0's). 

Giving (.26x - Mining Fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit) means to:
"Sharedrop" on holders of your ethereum clone, with (what I would assume) is a total taken from the difference between the .26x inflation with mining fees taken out (so it will be less than the .26x total).  This would be intented to keep the supply of YOUR Ethereum clone the same as the original...and you disperse those extra ethereum in whatever way you wish to the holders on your chain. 

Hope this helps Delulo.  And please feel free to let me know if I am off here guys and gals.


So far the response from the Ethereum community has been very negative.  I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised since it's the "one chain to rule them all" fan club but it's still disheartening to see such vocal closed mindedness.

I'm thrilled to see Vitalik and Dan have a good professional relationship and am looking forward to hearing more about the challenges faced by both parties in developing these ecosystems.

That is ok.  Anyone who knows altcoins with proper Devs get in touch with me please.  We don't really need ethereum in order to change the world...though it is nice to see Vitalik hanging around.  :)

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: donkeypong on August 18, 2014, 04:18:45 am
I am happy to see the goodwill also. Personally, I feel there is much more upside to BitShares than to Ethereum, though I am rooting for the latter also. Maybe if Vitalik agrees with the potential of DPOS and his collaborators are still interested in digging holes, he might consider crossing the aisle to join our team? He could float a BitShares V-coin that would make Ethereum's IPO look like a bake sale. And, I'm sure, have complete freedom to design a smart contracts DAC.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: merockstar on August 18, 2014, 04:47:13 am
outstanding!

dpos is a great upgrade security wise for the blockchain technology...
But what about your personal security on this real world guys?
Hope your photographer is behind you not only to take pictures, but because they are "watching your backs"  ;)

I worry about this as well. I'll bet 1000btsx that Stan is the photographer.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Empirical1 on August 18, 2014, 02:43:12 pm
So far the response from the Ethereum community has been very negative.  I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised since it's the "one chain to rule them all" fan club but it's still disheartening to see such vocal closed mindedness.

I'm thrilled to see Vitalik and Dan have a good professional relationship and am looking forward to hearing more about the challenges faced by both parties in developing these ecosystems.

Yes, at the very least it seems like they've stimulated and helped each other in certain areas so that is positive.

If BM's perspective is correct, that Vitalik sees POW as pretty much dead, then it's quite a big rift, if the other main Ethereum dev/s disagrees. I personally can't see Vitalik wanting to spend his talent and effort developing Ethereum on a base he perceives as having a limited future.

I haven't invested in Ether myself yet at all.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: CLains on August 18, 2014, 03:13:20 pm
I doubt Vitalik has the emotional sharpness to force something like this through the social-ideological inertia that surrounds him.. Be Brave, young one!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: GaltReport on August 18, 2014, 04:10:51 pm
What using go and aerospike ( http://www.aerospike.com/  and  http://www.aerospike.com/blog/go-aerospike-a-perfect-match/ ).

Go language ( http://golang.org/ ) has a lot of qualities

* Astonishing performance
* Strong typing
* Asynchronous, multithreaded, multicore programming
* Clear, concise syntax

Ethereum is mainly written in Go.

I like go.  I was  playing around with a version of Bitcoin written in go by Conformal Systems:
https://opensource.conformal.com/wiki/btcd

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Empirical1 on August 18, 2014, 04:53:37 pm
dpos is a great upgrade security wise for the blockchain technology...
But what about your personal security on this real world guys?
Hope your photographer is behind you not only to take pictures, but because they are "watching your backs"  ;)

I worry about this as well. I'll bet 1000btsx that Stan is the photographer.

 +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: liondani on August 18, 2014, 05:49:59 pm
dpos is a great upgrade security wise for the blockchain technology...
But what about your personal security on this real world guys?
Hope your photographer is behind you not only to take pictures, but because they are "watching your backs"  ;)

I worry about this as well. I'll bet 1000btsx that Stan is the photographer.

 +5%


he is proud... and he is right to be  ;)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Empirical1 on August 18, 2014, 06:09:45 pm
dpos is a great upgrade security wise for the blockchain technology...
But what about your personal security on this real world guys?
Hope your photographer is behind you not only to take pictures, but because they are "watching your backs"  ;)

I worry about this as well. I'll bet 1000btsx that Stan is the photographer.

 +5%


he is proud... and he is right to be  ;)

Yes for sure  :) 

My  +5% was for being concerned about the personal security of BM.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 18, 2014, 08:22:08 pm
Reminds me of something I read once about (I think) .Net, "This will be open platform once everyone is running Windows" :) .

To be fair given the large amount of effort, time, and planning a project of this scope requires I can understand them being a little defensive.

lol!  +5%
IMO their defensiveness is misplaced because it would have no bearing on the value of their stake.. if anything, the value would improve with DPOS because it'd be a more efficient and scalable system.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 18, 2014, 08:24:39 pm
That is ok.  Anyone who knows altcoins with proper Devs get in touch with me please.  We don't really need ethereum in order to change the world...though it is nice to see Vitalik hanging around.  :)

If they choose not to collaborate, you should totally create a clone with DPOS when it's released and sharedrop at least 20% to all the Ether holders.  That'll show them the value of our social contract   8)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Brent.Allsop on August 18, 2014, 08:50:56 pm
I doubt Vitalik has the emotional sharpness to force something like this through the social-ideological inertia that surrounds him.. Be Brave, young one!

This is not an easy task, for anyone.  There is a good chance the Bytemaster, and Bitshares will have this problem in the near future.  Best case, he'll piss at least some people off, and things will fracture.

But with the consensus building amplification of the wisdom of the crowd systems like Canonizer.com, this is natural and easy.  THE most important thing is to know, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone is thinking, why, and what it would take to convert them / make them happy.  All stuff that happens naturally at Canonizer.com.  Right now, the sheepish herd is about to run over the POW clif.  For this, and other similar issues in the future, how do you get the entire sheepish herd to change directions, on a dime, and be sure you've succeed before you commit.  And even better, keep the crowd educated about the evils of POW, and so on, before they get too far out of hand.


 





Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Brent.Allsop on August 18, 2014, 09:08:48 pm
The main objection and concern I have for Proof-Of-Stake, is that it disallows mining.
It is impossible to mine NXT coin, for example,  if you don't own any.
This blocks the community from growth.

do you mine bitcoin?

Brilliant response!

People are talking about doing some other kind of work, to get new currency into production.  Solving folding problems, finding ETs are good possibilities, but I bet there is far more important work than this that could be done.  Again, you could use a Canonizer.com like amplification of the wisdom of the crowd system to determine what type of work could be done to earn new currencies, and more importantly, it could be used to determine how much new currency could be put into production to accomplish such things, in a real time constantly changing way.








Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: vbuterin on August 19, 2014, 02:41:37 am
anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".

Release a version of ethereum (N.0 for N>1) meaning Version N.0, with N greater than one.  This can be taken to mean Ethereum 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc...only Ethereum 1.0 has the current obligations.  Ethereum version 2.0, 3.0...etc could be created by making your own additions to your version of ethereum (thus making it your 2.0 version of ethereum--there may be many 2.0's). 

Giving (.26x - Mining Fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit) means to:
"Sharedrop" on holders of your ethereum clone, with (what I would assume) is a total taken from the difference between the .26x inflation with mining fees taken out (so it will be less than the .26x total).  This would be intented to keep the supply of YOUR Ethereum clone the same as the original...and you disperse those extra ethereum in whatever way you wish to the holders on your chain. 

Hope this helps Delulo.  And please feel free to let me know if I am off here guys and gals.

This is exactly what I meant, thank you fuznuts.

So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

Thank you for having us over, Bitshares team! Look forward to talking more online and offline in the future.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: G1ng3rBr34dM4n on August 19, 2014, 04:01:13 am
anyone can release a version of ethereum N.0 for N>1 by making their own additions and giving 0.26x minus mining fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit, and if the community deems any implementation technically bad or unfair they can reject it and keep building on the previous instead kinda like a blockchain".

Release a version of ethereum (N.0 for N>1) meaning Version N.0, with N greater than one.  This can be taken to mean Ethereum 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc...only Ethereum 1.0 has the current obligations.  Ethereum version 2.0, 3.0...etc could be created by making your own additions to your version of ethereum (thus making it your 2.0 version of ethereum--there may be many 2.0's). 

Giving (.26x - Mining Fees since N-1.0 to their own communities as they deem fit) means to:
"Sharedrop" on holders of your ethereum clone, with (what I would assume) is a total taken from the difference between the .26x inflation with mining fees taken out (so it will be less than the .26x total).  This would be intented to keep the supply of YOUR Ethereum clone the same as the original...and you disperse those extra ethereum in whatever way you wish to the holders on your chain. 

Hope this helps Delulo.  And please feel free to let me know if I am off here guys and gals.

This is exactly what I meant, thank you fuznuts.

So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

Thank you for having us over, Bitshares team! Look forward to talking more online and offline in the future.

Such an awesome attitude.  I applaud the collaboration and initiation of discussion, welcome to the community Vitalik! +5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 04:36:42 am
This is exactly what I meant, thank you fuznuts.

So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

Thank you for having us over, Bitshares team! Look forward to talking more online and offline in the future.

 +5% You rule, V!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 05:22:28 am
V and I had a great time and I appreciate him making the trip to Virginia.   

One thing that has come out of the process is that I am a firm believer in the need for a "Turing Complete" environment on a DAC.   The other thing that came out of the meeting is that the existing Eth. design has woefully inefficient abstraction for the types of data structures that DAC developers really need.  Technically it is turing complete and it is possible to do everything on their existing design.  I was throughly impressed with V's ability to solve problems on the fly and believe that Eth will be a very interesting platform and will find many solutions.   

So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.   I think that we will probably have a friendly competition moving forward as we steal good ideas from each other. 

One thing I can say is that nothing replaces real-world experience writing DACs from scratch to learn what the proper abstraction layer is.  V gained some insight from our experience writing real DACs while we gained some of his experience with doing things more generally.

We also recognized that the biggest need we have is for our communities to work together rather than against one another.  It is kind of like different tribes.  It seems that the best way to align our communities is to have a mutual financial interest and for that reason I could see a joint venture with allocation from both sides for the development of BitShares Turing.

All of these things are probably a year or more away as we both have to focus on current systems.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: nethyb on August 19, 2014, 05:35:12 am
 +5% Very Cool BM, thanks for being open and sharing with us...
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: xeroc on August 19, 2014, 05:38:51 am
V and I had a great time and I appreciate him making the trip to Virginia.   

One thing that has come out of the process is that I am a firm believer in the need for a "Turing Complete" environment on a DAC.   The other thing that came out of the meeting is that the existing Eth. design has woefully inefficient abstraction for the types of data structures that DAC developers really need.  Technically it is turing complete and it is possible to do everything on their existing design.  I was throughly impressed with V's ability to solve problems on the fly and believe that Eth will be a very interesting platform and will find many solutions.   

So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.   I think that we will probably have a friendly competition moving forward as we steal good ideas from each other. 

One thing I can say is that nothing replaces real-world experience writing DACs from scratch to learn what the proper abstraction layer is.  V gained some insight from our experience writing real DACs while we gained some of his experience with doing things more generally.

We also recognized that the biggest need we have is for our communities to work together rather than against one another.  It is kind of like different tribes.  It seems that the best way to align our communities is to have a mutual financial interest and for that reason I could see a joint venture with allocation from both sides for the development of BitShares Turing.

All of these things are probably a year or more away as we both have to focus on current systems.
+5%

We should really invite V to fuznuts mumble hangouts ands beyondbitcoin in general!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 05:47:56 am
So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.

We also recognized that the biggest need we have is for our communities to work together rather than against one another.  It is kind of like different tribes.  It seems that the best way to align our communities is to have a mutual financial interest and for that reason I could see a joint venture with allocation from both sides for the development of BitShares Turing.

This sounds very interesting.......
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 19, 2014, 05:53:25 am
V and I had a great time and I appreciate him making the trip to Virginia.   

One thing that has come out of the process is that I am a firm believer in the need for a "Turing Complete" environment on a DAC.   The other thing that came out of the meeting is that the existing Eth. design has woefully inefficient abstraction for the types of data structures that DAC developers really need.  Technically it is turing complete and it is possible to do everything on their existing design.  I was throughly impressed with V's ability to solve problems on the fly and believe that Eth will be a very interesting platform and will find many solutions.   

So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.   I think that we will probably have a friendly competition moving forward as we steal good ideas from each other. 

One thing I can say is that nothing replaces real-world experience writing DACs from scratch to learn what the proper abstraction layer is.  V gained some insight from our experience writing real DACs while we gained some of his experience with doing things more generally.

We also recognized that the biggest need we have is for our communities to work together rather than against one another.  It is kind of like different tribes.  It seems that the best way to align our communities is to have a mutual financial interest and for that reason I could see a joint venture with allocation from both sides for the development of BitShares Turing.

All of these things are probably a year or more away as we both have to focus on current systems.

It is very much like tribes.  Sharedropping incentivizes collaboration between shareholders of different communities, Diversifies every holder's portfolio over time, and Diversifies a technology's community.  Diversification will create more redundancy between systems and will support higher market caps in the ecosystem, introducing more volume and stability. 

Another way to incentivize trust is for at least one tangible initiative to be established that various communities all have a stake in.  For instance, DPOS based chains can use some of the extra funds to collaboratively put together a legal fund to cover the expenses of establishing favorable legal precedents. 

As for V, thanks for clearing that up. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 19, 2014, 05:56:20 am
I haven't posted it yet, but pretty sure we have the Truthcoin Devs wanting to show up for a Saturday Meetup.  I'd really like to get Devs from all different crypto-ecosystems to chat with the community so if anyone knows some, let me know!

Also, BM. Is Friday a go or a no go at the moment?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: arhag on August 19, 2014, 07:21:10 am
One thing that has come out of the process is that I am a firm believer in the need for a "Turing Complete" environment on a DAC. 
Could you please expand more on this? In particular, what would you say is the value of adding user-generated Turing complete scripts on an existing DAC over developer-generated Turing complete code implementing new features on a new DAC (or a fork of the old DAC)? I sort of think of it like the difference between compiling then running code written in a statically-typed language vs using an eval expression to interpret code written in a dynamically-typed language. If the basic framework is going to be used again and again, it would make sense to me to just implement those features in the codebase, fork, and now everyone can enjoy it. On the other hand, if these features are unique to each particular user's situation, I suppose being able to (less efficiently?) implement the custom script on an existing DAC could be useful. But I am wondering what those use cases actually are.

So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.
I do think it would be pretty fun to try out a BitShares-branded DPOS DAC that has Turing complete scripts. But I want to make sure that I understand correctly; you are not advocating that core BitShares DACs like BitShares X and BitShares DNS become "Turing complete" correct?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 19, 2014, 09:58:33 am
I'm really encouraged by this collaborative attitude by the 2.0 community's best minds. While we view ourselves as competitors the true "other team" is the status quo economic systems that are so entrenched.


The concept of a universal client is appealing; like a web browser for blockchains.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: lucky331 on August 19, 2014, 10:56:27 am
I'm really encouraged by this collaborative attitude by the 2.0 community's best minds. While we view ourselves as competitors the true "other team" is the status quo economic systems that are so entrenched.


The concept of a universal client is appealing; like a web browser for blockchains.

YES!  glad you are in the same boat.  i've been trying to make everyone aware via "better together" cross community giveaways. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: liondani on August 19, 2014, 11:30:48 am
A new crypto 3.0 product will arise ... soon ....

BMV

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9vfuZTVa9os/U_M07eb-1nI/AAAAAAAADFU/kP_Zo4N_d_o/s1600/bmv.png)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: merockstar on August 19, 2014, 02:56:26 pm
dpos is a great upgrade security wise for the blockchain technology...
But what about your personal security on this real world guys?
Hope your photographer is behind you not only to take pictures, but because they are "watching your backs"  ;)

I worry about this as well. I'll bet 1000btsx that Stan is the photographer.

 +5%


he is proud... and he is right to be  ;)

no argument here. point is he's probably not packin heat. at this point I think the devs probably should be.

photoshop request: a terminatorfied stan holding a badass looking machine gun.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: hughmanwho on August 19, 2014, 03:07:31 pm
So I talked to Ethereum.. they basically told me that they are not interested in a partnership..  and that they felt that this announcement of a partnership was shady.

Need proof?  Comes from Ethereum core coder:
http://insightsintoamodernworld.blogspot.de/2014/08/ethereum-collaborations.html
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 19, 2014, 03:31:41 pm
So I talked to Ethereum.. they basically told me that they are not interested in a partnership..  and that they felt that this announcement of a partnership was shady.

Need proof?  Comes from Ethereum core coder:
http://insightsintoamodernworld.blogspot.de/2014/08/ethereum-collaborations.html

Who announced a formal partnership?   All that this thread was discussing is the potential for a partnership and ways to collaborate (hence the "?" in the title).  Looks like our community is very open minded and looking for the best technology. V. is also very open minded.

The only thing shady is the hostility of those against even the idea of collaboration. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Empirical1 on August 19, 2014, 03:41:43 pm
Apologies I made a post on BTT without the question mark, though I'm not affiliated with BitShares in anyway so I guess I can write what I like  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740684.0

Though the first post included the opening line

Quote
Just read this on the BitShares forums from Bytemaster (Daniel Larimer), the founder & main developer of BitShares, it his just perspective & not be construed as being from Vitalik/Ethereum directly but...

as well as the quote

Vitalik and I are not very "political" and mostly care about the best technology for the job.   I am merely expressing my perspective on the conversation and will let him speak for himself.   

Edit: I've since included question mark in title of Bitcointalk thread as well as included an update with the latest quote from Vitalik 'An update on possible collaboration'
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 04:51:11 pm
Who announced a formal partnership?   All that this thread was discussing is the potential for a partnership and ways to collaborate (hence the "?" in the title).  Looks like our community is very open minded and looking for the best technology. V. is also very open minded.

The only thing shady is the hostility of those against even the idea of collaboration.

 +5% I love how open minded the community here is.  Very refreshing compared to other communities.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: hughmanwho on August 19, 2014, 04:53:40 pm
So I talked to Ethereum.. they basically told me that they are not interested in a partnership..  and that they felt that this announcement of a partnership was shady.

Need proof?  Comes from Ethereum core coder:
http://insightsintoamodernworld.blogspot.de/2014/08/ethereum-collaborations.html

Who announced a formal partnership?   All that this thread was discussing is the potential for a partnership and ways to collaborate (hence the "?" in the title).  Looks like our community is very open minded and looking for the best technology. V. is also very open minded.

The only thing shady is the hostility of those against even the idea of collaboration.

Shady was not my word.. it came from someone on Ethereum Team.. maybe referencing it appearing like BitShares was discussing a deal that was made.. even though none was.

But if you now know there is going to be no deal.. keeping it as the intro of this thread.. seems a little shady. lol
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: santaclause102 on August 19, 2014, 05:13:58 pm
Quote
The only thing shady is the hostility of those against even the idea of collaboration.
+5%
hostility (a sign of your own weakness) and arrogance (the believe to know everything and have no own flaws) always looses in the end...
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 19, 2014, 07:08:10 pm
But if you now know there is going to be no deal.. keeping it as the intro of this thread.. seems a little shady. lol

You think it's shady because he didn't update the title of the thread to correct something he never said?  That's silly.  An official partnership may not be happening but Dan and V still have a good professional relationship and will continue their open discussions.. Dan even mentioned that future partnerships on mutually beneficial projects like Bitshares Turing could still happen in the future.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 19, 2014, 07:28:20 pm
open discussions.. Dan even mentioned that future partnerships on mutually beneficial projects like Bitshares Turing could still happen in the future.
+5%  The forking future is bright!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 19, 2014, 07:35:34 pm
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever.  This is another example of a thread that just should not have been posted.  Projects like Ethereum (and this should also be the case for Bitshares) have long term plans and strategies that they follow and execute.  A meeting like the one described here is incredibly common, everybody wants to collaborate but to suggest that a market-changing event will (or even that it might) come out of it, unless agreed on in advance by both parties looks like the one spreading the word is trying to "borrow the thunder" of the one that was planning to keep it quiet.   Now any announcement that COULD be made, will be overshadowed by this pre-announcement. 

Of course, this is Open Source so there was never much of a chance that Ethereum would have a formal partnership with Bitshares - They can just take the parts they like and ignore the social contract since the only people that would impact negatively would be the Bitshares community, which is a fraction the size of the ethereum community and pre-order base.

So with that in mind, really all you could hope to do with this announcement is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.  You had a nice, productive and foundational encounter with Vitalik.  You probably undid almost all the damage from the Gotcha video from Florida (the ethereum guys thought that was a really low blow), but then you reward him for making the trip out to see you by raising the idea of a merger or partnership which you admit was not even discussed along with talking about the financial rewards that would be given to this community (where does that come from?  at the expense of everyone who is getting it and who is not in this community) which then requires Vitalik to spend his time doing damage control, costing both time and credibility within his organization.  Next time will he come see you, or will he say "it's more trouble than it's worth?"

I am not suggesting you undertake a policy of GIANT SECRECY, just that you really try to filter your posting on the forum because it has a very real impact outside of the forum, and that's your real problem.  People here already love you no matter what you do.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: toast on August 19, 2014, 07:41:03 pm
I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 07:56:41 pm
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever. 

I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.

For somebody that posts 75-100 post a day, I refused to post in this thread up to now.  Above is more or less the reason I did so.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Stan on August 19, 2014, 08:33:55 pm
Some people build fences, others build bridges.

(http://bitshares.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Vitalik-Super3.png)

(http://bitshares.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Dan-Vitalik-Golf.png)

This thread is our outstretched hand of friendship, an attempt to mellow down the competitive urges and set a new tone for the industry.  Let's not be in such a hurry to build a fence across that bridge.   :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: tonyk on August 19, 2014, 08:39:04 pm
This thread is our outstretched hand of friendship, an attempt to mellow down the competitive urges and set a new tone for the industry.  Let's not be in such a hurry to build a fence across that bridge.   :)

So, change the name of the thread to:

'Our open hand to Ethereum!'
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 19, 2014, 08:47:09 pm
I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill. If V had wanted to get the temperature of the Etherium community about the prospect of working with the Bitshares team I could see a similarly title thread.


Let's keep some perspective here :).
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: vikram on August 19, 2014, 09:09:07 pm
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever. 

I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.

For somebody that posts 75-100 post a day, I refused to post in this thread up to now.  Above is more or less the reason I did so.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2e0q0a/bitshares_guy_here_sorry_we_caused_such_a_stir_we/
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Empirical1 on August 19, 2014, 10:35:05 pm
I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill...
Let's keep some perspective here :).

 +5%

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 20, 2014, 12:30:33 am
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever. 

I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.

For somebody that posts 75-100 post a day, I refused to post in this thread up to now.  Above is more or less the reason I did so.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2e0q0a/bitshares_guy_here_sorry_we_caused_such_a_stir_we/

Good mea culpa, although it seems Vitalik didn't agree quite as much as you thought, more that he was just very open (probably because they are actively seeking solutions and not tied into anything yet)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: AdamBLevine on August 20, 2014, 12:31:29 am
I just noticed super3, was Storj also represented at this gathering?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Stan on August 20, 2014, 12:38:36 am
I just noticed super3, was Storj also represented at this gathering?

It was a social gathering of people who only talk shop - so naturally we talked about Storj technology and its vision too.

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Stan on August 20, 2014, 12:47:53 am
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever. 

I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.

For somebody that posts 75-100 post a day, I refused to post in this thread up to now.  Above is more or less the reason I did so.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2e0q0a/bitshares_guy_here_sorry_we_caused_such_a_stir_we/

Good mea culpa, although it seems Vitalik didn't agree quite as much as you thought, more that he was just very open (probably because they are actively seeking solutions and not tied into anything yet)

Do any of you old-timers remember the antique acoustic-coupler modems and fax machines where you could hear ack/nack tones increasing in frequency until they had negotiated the highest baud rate they both could handle eventually reaching some inaudiable frequency where the two machines started flinging data at each other too fast for mere humans to follow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsNaR6FRuO0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsNaR6FRuO0)

Yeah, it was like that.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: luckybit on August 20, 2014, 12:49:55 am
V and I had a great time and I appreciate him making the trip to Virginia.   

One thing that has come out of the process is that I am a firm believer in the need for a "Turing Complete" environment on a DAC.   The other thing that came out of the meeting is that the existing Eth. design has woefully inefficient abstraction for the types of data structures that DAC developers really need.  Technically it is turing complete and it is possible to do everything on their existing design.  I was throughly impressed with V's ability to solve problems on the fly and believe that Eth will be a very interesting platform and will find many solutions.   

So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.   I think that we will probably have a friendly competition moving forward as we steal good ideas from each other. 

One thing I can say is that nothing replaces real-world experience writing DACs from scratch to learn what the proper abstraction layer is.  V gained some insight from our experience writing real DACs while we gained some of his experience with doing things more generally.

We also recognized that the biggest need we have is for our communities to work together rather than against one another.  It is kind of like different tribes.  It seems that the best way to align our communities is to have a mutual financial interest and for that reason I could see a joint venture with allocation from both sides for the development of BitShares Turing.

All of these things are probably a year or more away as we both have to focus on current systems.

For less experienced developers can you define what an abstraction layer is? Do you mean something like the standard library of C++? Do you mean something similar to classes or functions which help make writing contracts easier?

One thing that has come out of the process is that I am a firm believer in the need for a "Turing Complete" environment on a DAC. 
Could you please expand more on this? In particular, what would you say is the value of adding user-generated Turing complete scripts on an existing DAC over developer-generated Turing complete code implementing new features on a new DAC (or a fork of the old DAC)? I sort of think of it like the difference between compiling then running code written in a statically-typed language vs using an eval expression to interpret code written in a dynamically-typed language. If the basic framework is going to be used again and again, it would make sense to me to just implement those features in the codebase, fork, and now everyone can enjoy it. On the other hand, if these features are unique to each particular user's situation, I suppose being able to (less efficiently?) implement the custom script on an existing DAC could be useful. But I am wondering what those use cases actually are.

So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code.
I do think it would be pretty fun to try out a BitShares-branded DPOS DAC that has Turing complete scripts. But I want to make sure that I understand correctly; you are not advocating that core BitShares DACs like BitShares X and BitShares DNS become "Turing complete" correct?

From a developer perspective it's definitely better to have a scripting layer. That is something Ethereum really got right before everyone else. It has to be Turing complete but there is also great difficulty is doing that in a secure manner. I can only speak for myself but I'm looking forward to Ethereum because if it's flexibility and openness which could result from it's Turing complete scripting so I hope Bytemaster builds that into Bitshares toolkit at least.

But I recognize it's actually very very hard to do in a secure manner so the challenge will be to see how Ethereum manages to do it and improve on it. In order for DACs to survive they will have to be in a continuously evolving state of growth by innovation.

Having the ability to use scripting languages to modify the behavior of the DACs through Bitshares toolkit for example would allow for rapid DAC development. That would be very good for the industry because honestly few people know C++ well compared to all the scripting languages.

When you want maximum innovation then in my opinion one of the best things to do would be to invite as many developers from as many different backgrounds as possible into the ecosystem. C++ reigns supreme for Bitcoin/Bitshares but what we need is a toolkit which can accept any language or at least all the major languages.

That way people can extend the capabilities of the toolkit over time. Ethereum seems to be in a position to take over the world once they come up with a sort of development kit. So maybe that is what Bytemaster meant by abstraction? Currently the contracts are scripts, and I can read them, but where are the libraries, classes, and what not? If it's deemed too complicated looking or if there isn't a standard library then development time takes longer.

The good news is Ethereum now has the money to make a state of the art world class development kit or standard library. In addition to that there will have to be some professional documentation as well.


Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: luckybit on August 20, 2014, 12:54:20 am
I haven't posted it yet, but pretty sure we have the Truthcoin Devs wanting to show up for a Saturday Meetup.  I'd really like to get Devs from all different crypto-ecosystems to chat with the community so if anyone knows some, let me know!

Also, BM. Is Friday a go or a no go at the moment?

Truthcoin is a community we really need to collaborate with. They are smart, highly motivated, and working on the same problems.

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: vbuterin on August 20, 2014, 01:47:41 am
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever. 

I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.

For somebody that posts 75-100 post a day, I refused to post in this thread up to now.  Above is more or less the reason I did so.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2e0q0a/bitshares_guy_here_sorry_we_caused_such_a_stir_we/

Good mea culpa, although it seems Vitalik didn't agree quite as much as you thought, more that he was just very open (probably because they are actively seeking solutions and not tied into anything yet)

Or perhaps I just find it more productive to talk about differences, since there's no benefit in preaching to each other's choirs about what we already agree on :) When I say "my main concerns are", I mean "I'm 75% onboard, we already know about the 75% so here's the remaining 25%". We express our viewpoints, look for differences, expand on those differences, and see how our different approaches can benefit each other; it's a genetic algorithm approach to optimization.

We're both considerably more pro-PoS than the vast majority of the bitcoin community and I do think DPOS is one of the better approaches and does not have glaring incentive incompatibility holes like many of the other algos that are currently in use.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: bytemaster on August 20, 2014, 01:51:36 am
vbuterin is man after my own heart when it comes to problem solving and attempts to be objective.   

Thanks for posting here V. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: lucky331 on August 20, 2014, 01:59:23 am
cool!  can't wait what's next for crypto 2.0.  you made this a very exciting time for the people who follow and appreciate the tech. 

thanks guys.  wishing you all the luck and success.  :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 20, 2014, 03:03:28 am
I've complained many times about provocative thread titles that mislead people, specifically coming from Bytemaster, since forever. 

I agree with Adam here... Dan should know better.

For somebody that posts 75-100 post a day, I refused to post in this thread up to now.  Above is more or less the reason I did so.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2e0q0a/bitshares_guy_here_sorry_we_caused_such_a_stir_we/

Good mea culpa, although it seems Vitalik didn't agree quite as much as you thought, more that he was just very open (probably because they are actively seeking solutions and not tied into anything yet)

I actually agree on this.

As far as posting things that are misleading...

If we are going to ding people for being misleading, we should first start by calling out all altcoins that are made only for pump and dump schemes, then to projects.  I sincerely doubt, though, that Bytemaster and Stan's occasional overglorified posts are intentionally so...sometimes excitement makes people speak too soon, or do release projects too soon...etc.   We are all guilty of such things :/
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: werneo on August 20, 2014, 03:09:05 am
So what I can say is that a future BitShares chain will be fully Turing Complete with the ability to run arbitrary code. 
damn straight +5%
the best way to align our communities is to have a mutual financial interest and for that reason I could see a joint venture with allocation from both sides for the development of BitShares Turing.
another brilliant solution +5%

Mark this date. History just changed.  Again. 8)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: ChuckOneX on August 20, 2014, 10:44:29 am
The main objection and concern I have for Proof-Of-Stake, is that it disallows mining.
It is impossible to mine NXT coin, for example,  if you don't own any.
This blocks the community from growth.

That is not true. You can mine NXTs. Have a look at https://nxtforum.org/nxt-indirect-mining/
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: ChuckOneX on August 20, 2014, 10:47:28 am
One of the things we have discussed is lessons learned from Ethereum and BTSX and ways to generalize things better:

1) We agree that smart contracts are useful
2) We agree that smart contracts + BitUSD are very powerful
3) I would like to see a full up relational DB with SQL support as the basic abstraction for the block chain.
    a)  This would allow constraints to be placed on the tables / rows
    c)  This would make indexes easy to maintain
4) I would want to use a lua scripting engine to validate transactions relative to the SQL database
    a) Ethereum currently runs at 1.3 Mhz with their C++ interpreter, storage access via level db is the most expensive operation right now.
    b) I think the data set should be kept in RAM validated by delegates.   Delegates may need $15K servers at scale, but that should be reasonable.
5) One of the major slowdowns for Eth. is the use of merkel trees to support light-weight proofs.  I would do away with this feature.
    a) On a proof of stake chain you cannot validate block headers independent of block contents because you can not use POW as a proxy for trust.
    b) With DPOS + Bonded validation agents you can get cryptographic proofs good enough for light weight clients.  Delegates can lose their job for lying.
    c) Merk. trees help serve as a "double check" on the "deterministic application of transactions", but otherwise are unnecessary.  The check can be performed independent of the consensus algorithm.

As you can see the idea that Eth. represents can benefit significantly by working with our team and we benefit from their challenges as well.   Whether or not Eth. implements DPOS you can bet that V. and I will probably keep pushing the technology forward for future chains.


Interesting that you brought that up. I am not sure much you dug into related work but in Nxt we are actually trying to achieve 3) and 1) with release 1.3 and 1.4. I redirected your thoughts to our developers. Feel free to discuss our implementation at https://nxtforum.org/smart-contracts/

It is also interesting to see how different people get to the same solution to common problems. :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: ChuckOneX on August 20, 2014, 10:51:45 am
So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

I could not agree more.

And I am sure that most of the Nxt Community also agrees that standardization efforts might help the crypto ecosystem in general. So, if you feel Nxt should participate in such discussion, feel free to invite us. There will be many people willing to devote their time on this.

I personally feel that this is a very important issue which needs to be considered and addressed by a broader audience.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Riverhead on August 20, 2014, 11:01:59 am
So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

I could not agree more.

And I am sure that most of the Nxt Community also agrees that standardization efforts might help the crypto ecosystem in general. So, if you feel Nxt should participate in such discussion, feel free to invite us. There will be many people willing to devote their time on this.

I personally feel that this is a very important issue which needs to be considered and addressed by a broader audience.


Awesome. It is so fantastic to see you guys being open to meetings of the minds. I'm very excited that NXT is open to these discussions and that there is a lot of common ground. We all gain from this.


Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: liondani on August 20, 2014, 11:05:42 am
Welcome Vitalik  :)
It's a honor to have you here.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 20, 2014, 11:20:57 am
So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

I could not agree more.

And I am sure that most of the Nxt Community also agrees that standardization efforts might help the crypto ecosystem in general. So, if you feel Nxt should participate in such discussion, feel free to invite us. There will be many people willing to devote their time on this.

I personally feel that this is a very important issue which needs to be considered and addressed by a broader audience.

This is a perfect place to let everyone know it is completely free to log into the Mumble Server and chat during the hangouts...or even set up your own hangouts/events.  Regardless where they are held, however, discussions need to be held and a focus needs to be found as to how to best move forward. 

One thing for consideration: Anyone who is interested should be able to attend any of these discussions on standardization.  They should also be able to easily record and report on them as they are happening, from a transparent and open forum.  This isn't simply a matter of a few dev teams working together...this is a matter that requires the input of everyone who is able to provide it over the cross-section of any interested communities (not just NXT, BitShares & Ethereum).

The pictures of golfing and everything are nice, but all I care about is that people are aware what is going on and that it is not kept to secret  meetings where only "insiders" can participateThis is my #1 concern...and I will bark about it nonstop...because this is about more than just a few devs getting together to "help the standardize the crypto industry".  But what if that help ends up producing a product completely different from that which was originally promised? Everyone needs to have a say, and the community of investors in these projects needs to be able to form consensus on how to move forward in the case that they feel this work toward standardization moves them too far away from the philosophy behind why they originally invested.  Lots of stuff to consider...I just hope we all consider the bigger picture and realize a couple of technological geniuses making decisions for everyone is no way to move forward.  If this is what happens, I will be wholly against it.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: santaclause102 on August 20, 2014, 12:37:03 pm
So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

I could not agree more.

And I am sure that most of the Nxt Community also agrees that standardization efforts might help the crypto ecosystem in general. So, if you feel Nxt should participate in such discussion, feel free to invite us. There will be many people willing to devote their time on this.

I personally feel that this is a very important issue which needs to be considered and addressed by a broader audience.


Awesome. It is so fantastic to see you guys being open to meetings of the minds. I'm very excited that NXT is open to these discussions and that there is a lot of common ground. We all gain from this.


Welcome to the forum!
+5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Stan on August 20, 2014, 01:44:55 pm
So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

I could not agree more.

And I am sure that most of the Nxt Community also agrees that standardization efforts might help the crypto ecosystem in general. So, if you feel Nxt should participate in such discussion, feel free to invite us. There will be many people willing to devote their time on this.

I personally feel that this is a very important issue which needs to be considered and addressed by a broader audience.

This is a perfect place to let everyone know it is completely free to log into the Mumble Server and chat during the hangouts...or even set up your own hangouts/events.  Regardless where they are held, however, discussions need to be held and a focus needs to be found as to how to best move forward. 

One thing for consideration: Anyone who is interested should be able to attend any of these discussions on standardization.  They should also be able to easily record and report on them as they are happening, from a transparent and open forum.  This isn't simply a matter of a few dev teams working together...this is a matter that requires the input of everyone who is able to provide it over the cross-section of any interested communities (not just NXT, BitShares & Ethereum).

The pictures of golfing and everything are nice, but all I care about is that people are aware what is going on and that it is not kept to secret  meetings where only "insiders" can participateThis is my #1 concern...and I will bark about it nonstop...because this is about more than just a few devs getting together to "help the standardize the crypto industry".  But what if that help ends up producing a product completely different from that which was originally promised? Everyone needs to have a say, and the community of investors in these projects needs to be able to form consensus on how to move forward in the case that they feel this work toward standardization moves them too far away from the philosophy behind why they originally invested.  Lots of stuff to consider...I just hope we all consider the bigger picture and realize a couple of technological geniuses making decisions for everyone is no way to move forward.  If this is what happens, I will be wholly against it.

Just the opposite.  :o 

The thing that always causes the biggest uproars is Dan's tendency to immediately share what he is thinking, hoping, and talking about with others the same day

Keeping secret thoughts has never been a problem.


 :)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: yellowecho on August 20, 2014, 02:02:02 pm
3) I would like to see a full up relational DB with SQL support as the basic abstraction for the block chain.
    a)  This would allow constraints to be placed on the tables / rows
    c)  This would make indexes easy to maintain

What's needed for this?  I work on a platform that's capable of generating relational databases quickly and easiily with SQL support and the tables are extremely easy to maintain and index.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 21, 2014, 07:21:17 am
So as an update on possible collaboration, I think we agreed that keeping things informal is the best way forward at this point. No official partnerships or mergers of any companies or any coins/projects, and it doesn't really make sense to copy-paste codebases in either direction either. But we are happy to participate in standardization efforts and collaborative discussions on technical issues as long as it's an open tent where any crypto-2.0 project can participate. I think there definitely are a few areas (eg. proof of stake algos, client standardization) where that would be quite beneficial.

I could not agree more.

And I am sure that most of the Nxt Community also agrees that standardization efforts might help the crypto ecosystem in general. So, if you feel Nxt should participate in such discussion, feel free to invite us. There will be many people willing to devote their time on this.

I personally feel that this is a very important issue which needs to be considered and addressed by a broader audience.

This is a perfect place to let everyone know it is completely free to log into the Mumble Server and chat during the hangouts...or even set up your own hangouts/events.  Regardless where they are held, however, discussions need to be held and a focus needs to be found as to how to best move forward. 

One thing for consideration: Anyone who is interested should be able to attend any of these discussions on standardization.  They should also be able to easily record and report on them as they are happening, from a transparent and open forum.  This isn't simply a matter of a few dev teams working together...this is a matter that requires the input of everyone who is able to provide it over the cross-section of any interested communities (not just NXT, BitShares & Ethereum).

The pictures of golfing and everything are nice, but all I care about is that people are aware what is going on and that it is not kept to secret  meetings where only "insiders" can participateThis is my #1 concern...and I will bark about it nonstop...because this is about more than just a few devs getting together to "help the standardize the crypto industry".  But what if that help ends up producing a product completely different from that which was originally promised? Everyone needs to have a say, and the community of investors in these projects needs to be able to form consensus on how to move forward in the case that they feel this work toward standardization moves them too far away from the philosophy behind why they originally invested.  Lots of stuff to consider...I just hope we all consider the bigger picture and realize a couple of technological geniuses making decisions for everyone is no way to move forward.  If this is what happens, I will be wholly against it.

Just the opposite.  :o 

The thing that always causes the biggest uproars is Dan's tendency to immediately share what he is thinking, hoping, and talking about with others the same day

Keeping secret thoughts has never been a problem.


 :)

I know secrets have not been a problem. Im simply saying that some means of bringing these 2.0 communities together to articulate their ideas/concerns on potential proposals is absolutely necessary before any cooperative works occur.  The investors (project funders) have a right to help outline the guidelines and rules under which this cooperation will occur. 

Sharedrops are a good incentive, but moreso is the trust built between intercommunity members when they work together to achieve common goals that raise all boats.  There are many barriers to overcome...very interested in seeing how this progresses.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: donkeypong on August 21, 2014, 03:44:52 pm
I nominate fuznuts as the official BitShares Ambassador-At-Large.
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: xeroc on August 21, 2014, 03:57:46 pm
I nominate fuznuts as the official BitShares Ambassador-At-Large.
+5%
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on August 21, 2014, 05:04:59 pm
I nominate fuznuts as the official BitShares Ambassador-At-Large.

flattered, donkey, but have to be honest. Someday once im completely done with school, my wife will be expecting meto get a better paying job :P

What ive done here was never meant to be an end...it was meant to spark others to action in hopes that the community would offer their grassroots support to education, marketing and journalism that for a long time it was lacking. 

Once beyond bitcoinx is finished, ill likely walk away and try to find something else that makes me hopeful for my baby's future in this sadly corrupt world. In bitshares ...and dan, I saw an opportunity to help something worth helping. 

You know, thougb...there is nothing keeping ANY of you from being ambassadors :P
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: jae208 on August 22, 2014, 05:03:51 am
 +5%

Much respect for V.

Bitshares and Etheruem will rule the world and of course I am vested in both.  8)
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: soniq on August 22, 2014, 06:15:01 am
I nominate fuznuts as the official BitShares Ambassador-At-Large.

flattered, donkey, but have to be honest. Someday once im completely done with school, my wife will be expecting meto get a better paying job :P

What ive done here was never meant to be an end...it was meant to spark others to action in hopes that the community would offer their grassroots support to education, marketing and journalism that for a long time it was lacking. 

Once beyond bitcoinx is finished, ill likely walk away and try to find something else that makes me hopeful for my baby's future in this sadly corrupt world. In bitshares ...and dan, I saw an opportunity to help something worth helping. 

You know, thougb...there is nothing keeping ANY of you from being ambassadors :P

Staying with Bitshares and continuing to do the admirable job you do now, will earn you the $$$ you seek to support your growing family. I think I can speak for most of the members of this forum
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: cass on August 23, 2014, 02:42:09 pm
I nominate fuznuts as the official BitShares Ambassador-At-Large.

flattered, donkey, but have to be honest. Someday once im completely done with school, my wife will be expecting meto get a better paying job :P

What ive done here was never meant to be an end...it was meant to spark others to action in hopes that the community would offer their grassroots support to education, marketing and journalism that for a long time it was lacking. 

Once beyond bitcoinx is finished, ill likely walk away and try to find something else that makes me hopeful for my baby's future in this sadly corrupt world. In bitshares ...and dan, I saw an opportunity to help something worth helping. 

You know, thougb...there is nothing keeping ANY of you from being ambassadors :P

Staying with Bitshares and continuing to do the admirable job you do now, will earn you the $$$ you seek to support your growing family. I think I can speak for most of the members of this forum

 +5%

Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: sudo on March 27, 2015, 06:10:02 am
OMG  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on March 27, 2015, 06:14:38 am
OMG  :'( :'(

?
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: sudo on March 27, 2015, 07:44:59 am
OMG  :'( :'(

?

The greater the hope, the greater the disappointment
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: fuzzy on March 27, 2015, 07:46:36 am
OMG  :'( :'(

?

The greater the hope, the greater the disappointment

There is nothing wrong with having multiple chains competing.  Even if I would have been an early owner of Walmart shares, today I would be very concerned with how few true competitors Walmart has. 

I would gladly give every single damned cent I have if I could guarantee the existence of a blockchain that would at the protocol level ensure our freedom and liberty.  BitShares has changed quite a bit but still is the closest thing I have found. 
Title: Re: Ethereum & BitShares Partnership?
Post by: Tuck Fheman on March 27, 2015, 07:55:27 am
OMG  :'( :'(

?

The greater the hope, the greater the disappointment

https://imgur.com/gallery/BFOwYkn (https://imgur.com/gallery/BFOwYkn)   :D