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Messages - CoinHoarder

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181
General Discussion / Re: exchange preparing for voting
« on: January 10, 2016, 11:15:44 pm »
Quote from: monsterer on January 10, 2016, 10:44:33 pm
Quote from: CoinHoarder on January 10, 2016, 10:32:24 pm
I think the negative publicity is greater that it only takes 15% stake to attack Bitshares than the fact that exchanges would have a large war chest to vote with.

They wouldn't necessarily be forging blocks anyways.. unless they happened to get voted in as a delegate. As stated upthread, maybe this would spur more people to use the DEX as well.

But the point is, the exchanges are *the* most likely candidates to abuse that voting power; they expended no capital to acquire the power, they can do whatever they like with it. This is a fundamental problem with (D)POS, the only thing we can do is try and have them uphold the social contract of not voting in the first place.

Hmm. Good point.

What if we added the ability for vote for a different proxy with different percentages of your stake. Then we would need to make a social contact... such as an exchange should vote with 25% of their stake for the top 4 proxies (25% each) so it balances out the voting power among multiple individuals.  The stake they contribute should not count towards that amount of votes considered to be the top 4 proxies.

Or... something similar to what was said up thread... that the votes be split among all of the committee members.

Or.. maybe a better idea.... a "stakeholder" proxy option. For example, if an exchange had 1% stake then that voting power should be split in between all of the remaining 99% of stakeholders evenly. This eliminates politics from the equation, and at the same time makes the network safer.

I've seen you are participating in Anonymint's consensus algorithm discussion on BCT... I am looking forward to reading that thread but haven't had time. Is there anything useful you think could be implemented/tweaked in dPoS to improve it?

182
General Discussion / Re: exchange preparing for voting
« on: January 10, 2016, 10:32:24 pm »
Quote from: monsterer on January 10, 2016, 09:19:03 pm
Quote from: xeroc on January 09, 2016, 07:13:12 pm
Thats the point .. there never really was an exchange-novote-'social consensus'

And even if there was, the exchanges wouldnt know

There is always a stink kicked up when an exchange is discovered to be forging blocks with other people's stake, in any POS currency. The social contract revolves around negative publicity.

I think the negative publicity is greater that it only takes 15% stake to attack Bitshares than the fact that exchanges would have a large war chest to vote with.

They wouldn't necessarily be forging blocks anyways.. unless they happened to get voted in as a delegate. As stated upthread, maybe this would spur more people to use the DEX as well.

183
General Discussion / Re: [poll] Should we use a worker proposal to reduce the premium for bitassets?
« on: January 10, 2016, 10:26:40 pm »
Quote from: julian1 on January 10, 2016, 09:11:50 pm
Quote from: pc on January 10, 2016, 02:59:31 pm
Quote from: bitcrab on January 10, 2016, 11:40:21 am
I don't think worker proposal should be used to do the things such as market making for a specific BitAsset, system should only define rules.
+1

+1 If there is a constant premium, then adjust the market operations (eg. forced settlement) to bring the risk/incentives as well as price back in line.

Alternatively, if it is the spread that is too large, then that's a signal that there are profit opportunities for market-makers.

Using dilution for this, is like a company buying it's own product to improve it's books.

Adjusting market dynamics and relying on more adoption/market makers has been the strategy used for the past 2 years with little success. How long do we have to wait before admitting it's broken... a decade?

184
General Discussion / Re: [poll] Should we use a worker proposal to reduce the premium for bitassets?
« on: January 10, 2016, 07:51:05 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on January 10, 2016, 08:21:18 am
Quote from: Chronos on January 10, 2016, 04:34:35 am
@CoinHoarder Are you aware of the Forced Settlement feature inside Bitshares? It allows the holder of a smartcoin like BitUSD to convert back to BTS at 99% of the price feed.
Settlememt is at exactly feed price (100%)

@xeroc @Chronos

 ROFL. I am stupid, no I did not know that was possible. How can I miss something like that?!

185
General Discussion / Re: [poll] Should we use a worker proposal to reduce the premium for bitassets?
« on: January 10, 2016, 03:01:36 am »
Quote from: Shentist on January 09, 2016, 10:34:41 pm
Nubits is just a little bit under the market value of Nushares, so what will happen when some whale will dump Nushares and the value will drop below that?

i don't get it how they will solve this problem, but anyway in my understanding most of the nubits are holded by liquidityprovider and not so much with users.
The way I understand it, the Nushares price doesn't really matter (for the peg to work any ways). Reading the full Whitepaper is a great way to learn exactly how it works... it is kind of complicated to explain like Smartcoins. The main danger of Nushares/Nubits is that the demand for Nubits declines and has no potential to increase in the future.

Quote
While Bitcoin is a first generation cryptoasset, Peercoin was the beginning of the second generation defined by proof of stake. Nu heralds a third generation of cryptoassets featuring stable value managed by shareholders. Will there be a fourth generation? Likely. I do not yet know what will be its defining characteristics, when it will arrive or whether it will make Nu obsolete. Nu is more adaptable than Bitcoin or Peercoin with its voting mechanisms and shareholders are likely to devote considerable revenues to updating it as well as research and development. While I believe the system can likely be sustained for a very long time, it would be foolish to believe it could last forever, as in century after century. Someday it will be replaced by a superior system based on technology not foreseeable today.

When this occurs, NuBit demand will decline permanently. The end of the currency will be marked by interest rates rising to unprecedented highs and then going still higher until the vast majority of NuBits are parked. When market participants reach a unanimous consensus that NuBits are worthless, then they will suddenly drop to zero value from one USD. As long as a small group of speculators believe there is even a small chance NuBit demand will reach a new all time high the price will remain one USD. As the currency shows signs of stress and serious decline in levels of use NuBits will pass from ordinary businesses and people to speculators willing to take large risks for large rewards. Ownership of NuBits will centralize somewhat as the currency shows signs of stress. Failure of the currency is not synonymous with failure of the network. If there are other currencies offered by Nu, they will continue to be unaffected.

In the space between now and obsolescence, there is much that Nu can do to benefit shareholders and its users.

Finally, it should be noted that Nu is experimental software at this point. It may not work as intended. However, shareholders will be tenacious in repairing any defects that are found.

If you go through the tabs on this page it will give you a good idea how Nubits works: https://nubits.com/about/overview
Chronos' videos are good too: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUiLNR0BnZBbQy8UjB263sw13ANLPCxK_
Forums are enlightening as well, specifically the liquidity, nushares, and nubits sections: https://discuss.nubits.com/c/Liquidity

I'm tired of the "liquidity will increase because adoption will increase" state of mind that has been instilled in this community for the past couple years, and I think Bitshares can take a page out of Nushare's book. Namely, paying "custodians" to provide liquidity on the Smartcoin market.

186
General Discussion / Re: [poll] Should we use dilution to reduce the premium for bitassets?
« on: January 09, 2016, 09:09:22 pm »
Quote from: Pheonike on January 09, 2016, 08:12:24 pm
They have liquidity and strong peg. The two things we need the most.

Exactly. I would 100% unequivocally buy 1 Nubit before buying 1 bitUSD, because it is way more likely that there will be someone to buy it back close to parity whenever I happened to want to sell it.

Everyone is still disillusioned that these issues can be fixed by adoption or market maker bots. Adoption is a chicken and egg problem... if there is not liquidity no one will adopt smartcoins, if there is no adoption there is no liquidity. We have been saying that adoption will fix the liquidity problem for two years now. Furthermore, market making bots currently exist and existed in BTS 1.0 with little effect on the peg or liquidity. There are market making bots running on BTS 2.0 right now already.

Bitshares needs to put its customers first, as that is the only way it will be adopted. We have the ability to deliver a one-two punch to Nubits, our biggest competitors. We can do this by diluting shareholders to provide liquidity to the Smartcoin markets in a similar way that Nubits does.  You guys are so adamant that dilution is the issue- it is not. It is the shitty service that we provide.... lets face it.... the DEX sucks. Every time I buy a Smartcoin I pay a huge premium, and then to make things even worse there is no one that wants to buy them back without paying another huge premium. Do you guys not understand that? All of this rhetoric "focus on the DEX", yet you guys are too cheap to do something that would truly improve the DEX... more so than anything else.

I don't understand how you guys don't get this... this is part of the reason I have been recently diversifying into Nushares/B&C because you guys don't seem to get it that the DEX sucks as a product..

187
General Discussion / Re: Let's talk - decentralized betting/prediction market! Possibility of a next FBA!
« on: January 09, 2016, 07:16:44 pm »
Quote from: xeroc on January 09, 2016, 07:21:29 am
Interestingly I had some thoughts about almost exactly the same idea yeaterday. Lets have a talk someday this week

Edit: everything needed for binary prediction markets is already there

That's funny you were thinking about this too! I think this avenue should be further explored- it could have wide reaching implications for Bitshares (in of course an extremely positive way.) There are so many things that could be built on top of Bitshares EASILY if this could be made to work.

Anyone that knows a little Javascript could make an addon or plugin for Bitshares.

188
General Discussion / Re: [poll] Should we use dilution to reduce the premium for bitassets?
« on: January 09, 2016, 07:11:34 pm »
My vote is yes.... we have the chance to crush our competition (Nubits) by implementing such a feature.

Pretty much Nubit's only benefit is that they dilute Nushares holders to provide liquidity for Nubits, and I think we should level the playing field and do this ourselves with Smartcoins. However, the way you state it should work in your OP is flawed because it only helps people that want to buy Smartcoins at a reasonable price, and does nothing to ensure that they can sell them at a reasonable price. There is a reason Nubits puts up both sell and buy walls... if I am buying Smartcoins I want to be reasonably certain that I will be able to sell them close to parity. I think the way Nubits/Nushares provides liquidity is a much better way of doing it... by the use of elected custodians which are provided incentive by diluting Nushares. Each custodian provides their own funds for operating liquidity operations and is incentived by payments made from Nushares dilution.

In my opinion Smartcoins would truly be a superior solution to Nubits' solution in every way if this were to be implemented. If you guys are going to pass this proposal, then make sure to let me know so I can dump my Nushares... lol.  ;D

189
General Discussion / Re: Let's talk - decentralized betting/prediction market! Possibility of a next FBA!
« on: January 09, 2016, 05:20:15 am »
Quote from: Shentist on January 09, 2016, 12:58:09 am
Quote from: lil_jay890 on January 09, 2016, 12:50:51 am
How would he contract be created? Would this be a new uia? Would the platform be completely decentralized?

this is the point i want to talk.

could it be made possible with our account system or do we need new stuff to coded to create something like this.
Possibly one or a combination of those ideas combined with this:

I've been wondering if applications could be built on top of Bitshares that require off chain communication (like a troll box) by using WebRTC and making the original "handshake" on the blockchain. The way I understand it, WebRTC requires an initial handshake to be performed on by some centralized service. I posit it may be possible to do this handshake on the Bitshares blockchain. After the initial handshake, all communications between web browsers is decentralized. It would be a blockchain-less top level of Bitshares in which javascript applications or "plugins" could be built. It would allow people to easily build apps on top of Bitshares without stakeholder approval... truly opening the floodgates "ethereum-style"... allowing anyone to develop anything. You could also add the capability for the program/plugin/app write to the blockchain to add extra functionality, but that would be optional depending on each certain programs/plugins needs.

https://vimeo.com/108532169

190
General Discussion / Re: Lessons Learned from Alt Coins
« on: January 09, 2016, 04:12:49 am »
I have thought about this before and recently came up with an improved design. Thanks for reminding me to update it. :)

This is only intended to cover the distribution part of the problem... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=675333.0

A. Far advance warning of an altcoin's distribution/fundraising, with a clear objective and roadmap for the project, and a set timeframe for the distribution/fundraising
B. A working closed source beta, to be open-sourced after the original distribution period
C. PoW distribution (50% of the genesis stake)
Ca. Use several different mining algorithms, with each having an their own separate difficulty and the same chance to find the next block (implemented in several coins.. MyriadCoin was the first)
Cb. Use at least one algorithm per different types of mining hardware (one for Scrypt ASICs, one for SHA256 ASICs, one for CPUs, one for ATI GPUs, one for NVIDIA GPUs, etc..)
Cc. The point of this is to allow people with all types of minin hardware to participate so it is inclusive of everyone.
D. A regular IPO distribution (50% of the genesis stake)
Da. This is to allow people to participate in the initial distribution that do not want to hassle with mining equipment.
E. Launch said closed source beta into the wild after the distribution/fund-raising has occurred and switch to PoS
F. To mitigate claims of having an unfair PoS distribution to early insiders...
Fa. Have an annual auction governed by smart contracts
Fb. The amount of tokens sold in the annual auctions should be reduced each year until eventually there are no more auctions or coins released
Fc. This is intended to mimic the block reduction scheme and distribution of most PoW currencies

191
General Discussion / Re: exchange preparing for voting
« on: January 08, 2016, 05:03:12 pm »
I prefer that all exchanges set proxies. Bitshares is more secure that way and there is more of a balance of power in regards to voting. If you don't like the proxy an exchange chooses then switch exchanges.

I personally feel so strongly about this that I think we should force exchanges to set a proxy by only using the ones that do.

192
General Discussion / Re: The Benefits of Proof of Work [BLOG POST]
« on: January 08, 2016, 04:44:39 pm »
@Empirical1.2 You are right, I feel like now it is different due to the dynamics.

A. The price has been falling for a very long time now. Over a year ago it had only been falling for a short amount of time. Now we need to be more weary than ever of public perception.

B. There was only one dividing issue in the community at that time regarding dilution. Today, it seems to be a Neverending list, which gives the perception that Bitshares has nothing to offer and people should dump their BTS holdings. At least.. that is what I would gather as a casual observer or newcomer after reading these forums and the threads about bitshares.on Bitcointalk.

Ps: I did sell all my stake back then. I just recently started acquiring BTS again wI thin the past few months. So, I have not experienced being a stakeholder in the long downturn.. maybe I should be easier on folks around here.

193
General Discussion / Re: The Benefits of Proof of Work [BLOG POST]
« on: January 08, 2016, 02:52:43 pm »
Quote from: Empirical1.2 on January 08, 2016, 01:39:33 pm
Quote from: CoinHoarder on January 08, 2016, 12:57:40 pm
You need to learn patience, it is a good skill to have in life. We can't build a billion dollar company without dilution to fund the development of our product. Ending dilution (and therefore development) this early in the game would be a death sentence to Bitshares. If you don't like it please sell your stake and let those that share the vision reap the rewards.

Caring so much is a good indication you have not diversified your cryptocurrency portfolio sufficiently. The only coin I own more than 6% of my portfolio in is Bitcoin.

Quote from: CoinHoarder on January 08, 2016, 01:12:14 pm
Quote from: oldmine on January 08, 2016, 12:53:50 pm
Quote from: Stan on January 07, 2016, 06:41:19 pm

BitShares is a platform with as many lives as there are business models to be built on it.

Whenever I see a down day, I always remember this:  Are we better off now than we were when we started in 2013?

A fundraising mechanism to pay BM's rent is not a business model. Business models require profit. Where are the profits?

BitShares is the reason I dont have any Bitcoin right now, so Im not sure Im better off than in late 2013.

You've been an investor in Bitshares since 2013, yet you just show up a few months ago to state your disdain for the direction the project is headed. Whose fault is that, really?  ::)

You've had plenty of chances to shape the direction of the project. Being too lazy to sign up for a forum and voice your opinion is not an excuse.

I am tired of playing nice with you FUDers.



Lol  :) Not that I agree with oldmine's sentiments but you chose to leave BTS and stop helping shape the direction of project for 11 months from Nov 2014 to Oct 2015 & also your last post in 2014, expressed the complete opposite view of the one you are saying now.

Quote from: CoinHoarder on November 20, 2014, 05:35:17 am
Now, even though the dilution is more controlled (you can only dilute for developers, marketers, etc), it is still dilution and something  I.. as a very small shareholder..  have no control over.

A couple controversial things have happened in recent history that I personally (I know I'm not alone) and others do not agree with. Those things have to do with dilution and altering the social contract. Whether you agree with this or not.. I do not care.. but it has had some affect on the price and public perception.

Trust me, I want good things for Bitshares shareholders.. I just cannot continue to sit back and bite my tongue on some issues. Think for yourselves people, as the saying goes.. more heads are better than one... echoing thoughts and opinions doesn't help anyone... specifically getting Bitshares to where it needs to be. An echo chamber is not what makes successful communities, companies, or currencies. Yes, I have been incredibly hard on Bitshares lately, but that is because I feel like hardly anyone else in this community is, and that is what is required to be successful.

Do you see me complaining about the direction of the projec? Am I not allowed to change my opinion after thinking it over for a year. I took a break from the cryptocurrency community for about a year because it is such a hostile and toxic environment. I was going through a rough time in my life and didn't need the negativety. So that negates my opinions now?

I fought hard against dilution and lost. I didn't get my way, but I learned to accept it and eventually was able to.see the pros instead of just the cons. I see here and now people that feel like they are not getting their way and they are giving up, FUDing, or selling their stake and it frustrates me. Enough with all the negativity already. At the time I was objecting to diilution.. that was the big debate at the time... everyone was picking one side or the other.

Now, everyone's complaining about everything. You guys are fooling yourselves if think this public discourse does not negatively effect the price. We are under attack on Bitcointalk which is negatively effecting public perception (go take a look for yourself), and we are under attack on our forums. Enough already.

Ps.. at work and typing on phone.. sorry no time to formulate my sentences and thoughts properly and grammar and such.. this post annoyede so much I felt the need to.respond now.

194
General Discussion / Re: The Benefits of Proof of Work [BLOG POST]
« on: January 08, 2016, 01:12:14 pm »
Quote from: oldmine on January 08, 2016, 12:53:50 pm
Quote from: Stan on January 07, 2016, 06:41:19 pm

BitShares is a platform with as many lives as there are business models to be built on it.

Whenever I see a down day, I always remember this:  Are we better off now than we were when we started in 2013?

A fundraising mechanism to pay BM's rent is not a business model. Business models require profit. Where are the profits?

BitShares is the reason I dont have any Bitcoin right now, so Im not sure Im better off than in late 2013.

You've been an investor in Bitshares since 2013, yet you just show up a few months ago to state your disdain for the direction the project is headed. Whose fault is that, really?  ::)

You've had plenty of chances to shape the direction of the project. Being too lazy to sign up for a forum and voice your opinion is not an excuse.

I am tired of playing nice with you FUDers.


195
General Discussion / Re: Someone Give Me a Reason To Keep Holding BTS
« on: January 08, 2016, 12:57:40 pm »
Quote from: oldmine on January 08, 2016, 12:17:15 pm
BTS has never ever been profitable
This is not a true statement.. you must be new around here.

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on January 08, 2016, 07:17:36 am
and has no prospect of ever becoming so with the current dilution rates. Bytemaster seems to have given up on achieving profitability. All he says now is "real companies go through rounds of dilution to grow", etc. Therefore BitShares is so far not a profitable company, its just a fundraising scheme for BM & CNX to pay their rent. Thats fine, but it cant go on forever.

Give Me a Reason to Hold BTS - when are we going to stop dilution and become profitable?
You need to learn patience, it is a good skill to have in life. We can't build a billion dollar company without dilution to fund the development of our product. Ending dilution (and therefore development) this early in the game would be a death sentence to Bitshares. If you don't like it please sell your stake and let those that share the vision reap the rewards.

Caring so much is a good indication you have not diversified your cryptocurrency portfolio sufficiently. The only coin I own more than 6% of my portfolio in is Bitcoin.

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