BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 01:46:41 am

Title: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 01:46:41 am
Here is rough draft of of how dShares emerges and separates itself from BTS and how it gets initial funding and kick starts itself. I am not married for this proposal, but I do see most of its elements either desirable or the best possible compromise I have thought of.

Distribution of the new shares:
70% to the active BTS shareholders. Active defined as having their shares in their own account (outside of exchanges).
30% crowd fund/kick starter contributors.

Small is beautiful
While I do not see why dShares will not equal or hopefully bigger market cap in the future. I think starting small compact and reasonable is good thing for a start-up co-op. For that reason and to remove as much speculative value from current BTS price I find an initial estimate of  dShares value at 1/7th of BTS a good starting point. This should also give a nice return and incentive for participation for those part taking in the kick starter.

Development fund
All money from the kikstarter sales will go into a (community -and-) contributors to the crowd fund  multi signature account. The funds will be used to pay for development of the features outlined in the "bitSHARES as shares thread", and will continue to pay for any additional feature until it is exhausted.



BitAssets are our main innovation - we should have started using the long-long ago[I mean for both chains

-Kickstarter token will be offered for sale in a period of (say 30 days)
-in dSharesKickstarter/ bitUSD; dSharesKickstarter/ bitCNY and dSharesKickstarter/ TCNY markets ONLY.
-each day 1/30 of the dSharesKikstarter will  be sold to bidders offering the min price or above.
i-f not enough interest exist the unsold shares will carry to the next day(s) and if remaining shares exist on the last day to the dev. fund itself.
-The min price will be 1/7 of BTS price in USD at the start of the funding (alternatively some other prior day)




Some other general explanation clarification:

Community lead crowd funding
If it is not clear my ideas is about the following - 15-20 community volunteers (proxies, committee members etc are strongly encouraged to come forward)  start as controlling multi sig account where the crowd funding money go to. As major donors start to become more clear (say 3 times in the 30 day period) those initial volunteers are replaced by the top 15-20 contributor to the fund. At day 31 all community members controlling the account are replaced by the top 20 contributors.

Distribution to the Active community
I suggest [not married to this part, but find it beneficial] to cap the share-drop amount on exchanges to 10mil BTS. The excess of their holding will be spread to the community that seems to participate - and show it with at least withdrawing its funds from exchanges into his own account. BTW, IF no money are withdrawn and the things remain as of today, everyone will have about equal share in the dShares than is his share of total supply  in BTS.

Min price and currency of the crowd funding
The min price is set low for several reasons one of them being - would be contributor can create say bitCNY and use those for the crowd funding. Even if his short is liquidated and he loses all of the collateral (very very unlikely, as this means near blackswan for this BTS bitAsset), the min price grantees said person 7/2 returns if/when dShares price reaches parity with BTS.
That is to say - while I realize that many bitAsset does not exist as of now, the willing participant will be able to create them for themselves. Preferably with more than the min collateral required.


Slow maturation of the share drop
Even less married to this part, but might be highly beneficial [feedback please]
what else? I do not know, but should be more... I will save the next post just in case.

The share-drop on BTS matures slowly (coin-days approach for say 3 years) This is about only the audibility to sell those dShares. For all other purposes - voting, use as collateral, getting credit toward fees, receiving dividends those are absolutely active/normal shares
 
Some  benefits for BTS that comes to mind
1.Some part of the BTS currently held on exchanges will be withdrawn from.
2. More new bitAssets will be created and a use case for them as well.
3.First truly community lead crowd funding (the transition to funders' owned kickstart  fund is cool and unique IMHO)



Thoughts?
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 01:46:58 am
Your proposal will not work if you fork Bitshares. Take a look at how many alt coins have over 1k USD of volume in a 24 hour period compared to how many alternative coins have less than that. It is likely this fork will fall into the "less than that" category. Thus, Bitshares as-is will have more liquid Smartcoins than your fork. Not to mention all the negatives that come along with forking a project/community.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 01:47:36 am
Your proposal will not work if you fork Bitshares. Take a look at how many alt coins have over 1k USD of volume in a 24 hour period compared to how many alternative coins have less than that. It is likely this fork will fall into the "less than that" category. Thus, Bitshares as-is will have more liquid Smartcoins than your fork. Not to mention all the negatives that come along with forking a project/community.

'My fork" as in the fork that I have paid for each single share competing with everybody else?

Thanks for the "I predict...cause I predict" statement. We are all very good at that... when we decide to.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 01:48:40 am
Your proposal will not work if you fork Bitshares. Take a look at how many alt coins have over 1k USD of volume in a 24 hour period compared to how many alternative coins have less than that. It is likely this fork will fall into the "less than that" category. Thus, Bitshares as-is will have more liquid Smartcoins than your fork. Not to mention all the negatives that come along with forking a project/community.

'My fork" as in the fork that I have paid for each single share competing with everybody else?

Thanks for the "I predict...cause I predict" statement. We are all very good at that... when we decide to.

My prediction is based on sound logical reasoning. Your rebuttal is more like "you're wrong just cause you're wrong" temper tantrum style.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: Erlich Bachman on February 21, 2016, 02:38:25 am
Will bitAsset liquidity providers be shafted like in the sharebits sharedrop?
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: ebit on February 21, 2016, 04:21:29 am
#sharebits  tonyk 10 ROSE
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: btstip on February 21, 2016, 04:23:22 am
Hey ebit, here are the results of your tips...
Curious about ShareBits? Visit us at http://sharebits.io and start tipping BTS on https://bitsharestalk.org/ today!
Source: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21558.msg280767/topicseen.html#msg280767
Created by hybridd (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=40140)
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: Samupaha on February 21, 2016, 06:17:41 am
Fork would be mostly harmful for Bitshares. It would divide developers, funding, infrastructure, etc. Bitshares has been lacking devs and funding for a long time so this would make the situation even worse. I don't see that Bitshares could benefit from this in any way.

But I can see one really big benefit that a new chain would bring: we could get rid of bad shareholders who are actively acting against Bitshares, discouraging developers etc. Just look at who are not voting or voting against workers and you can easily identify some them (baozi/alt, laomao/Yunbi, bitcrab, harvey, k1, etc.). If we could leave them out of the sharedrop, moving to a new chain might be worth it.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: Pheonike on February 21, 2016, 06:30:56 am
Have you considered that a new chain could bring in more developers? They would be free to experiment and not locked into decisions that were made earlier on the bts chain.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: btswildpig on February 21, 2016, 06:34:04 am
Fork would be mostly harmful for Bitshares. It would divide developers, funding, infrastructure, etc. Bitshares has been lacking devs and funding for a long time so this would make the situation even worse. I don't see that Bitshares could benefit from this in any way.

But I can see one really big benefit that a new chain would bring: we could get rid of bad shareholders who are actively acting against Bitshares, discouraging developers etc. Just look at who are not voting or voting against workers and you can easily identify some them (baozi/alt, laomao/Yunbi, bitcrab, harvey, k1, etc.). If we could leave them out of the sharedrop, moving to a new chain might be worth it.

oh , this is the real meaning of "share holder approved dilution" -------------- remove those shareholders who act against dilution . You've said it well .
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: fav on February 21, 2016, 09:33:03 am
Go for it
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: Ben Mason on February 21, 2016, 10:43:40 am
Sounds really good.  Good luck tonyk. I'm a huge fan of BitShares but I like competition and innovation.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: noisy on February 21, 2016, 11:24:16 am
There is one reason why I think fork is a good idea. If there will be a version of bitshares blockchain without price feed and with 1:1 PEG for all FIATs... then probably I will also fork this, and I will create some experiment for Polish "reddit" alike community - wykop.pl.

There is a big demand for that, but we need truly 1:1 PEG.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: monsterer on February 21, 2016, 11:39:18 am
@tonyk I really like your idea but I don't think a competing fork with almost identical sounding features will be well received by the crypto community - they won't understand it. I suggested before going after a clearly different feature set (targeting mt4) and I still think that will be much better received.

If you move forward with your plan as is, it will fragment the bitshares community which is a lose lose situation for everybody.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: abit on February 21, 2016, 12:32:05 pm
@tonyk There are limitations in current BTS chain (adjustable by the committee though):
Code: [Select]
    "maximum_authority_membership": 10,
    "max_authority_depth": 2,
So if adopt one-layer-multi-sig account, the account can have at most 10 signers. If adopt 2-layer-multi-sig account, the account can have 100 signers.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: abit on February 21, 2016, 12:41:59 pm
Slow maturation of the share drop
Even less married to this part, but might be highly beneficial [feedback please]
what else? I do not know, but should be more... I will save the next post just in case.

The share-drop on BTS matures slowly (coin-days approach for say 3 years) This is about only the audibility to sell those dShares. For all other purposes - voting, use as collateral, getting credit toward fees, receiving dividends those are absolutely active/normal shares
I don't think those shares should be use as collateral if don't want them to be sold early. If the position get margin called, the result is same as sold.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: abit on February 21, 2016, 01:00:44 pm
@tonyk I really like your idea but I don't think a competing fork with almost identical sounding features will be well received by the crypto community - they won't understand it. I suggested before going after a clearly different feature set (targeting mt4) and I still think that will be much better received.

If you move forward with your plan as is, it will fragment the bitshares community which is a lose lose situation for everybody.
I think you're welcome by @tonyk and maybe you'll get some development fund in return and maybe some FBA-style long term income, if you can provide a mt4 plugin which works with the new chain. In this way the product get benefited as well. Hope others to do something is always easy.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: TravelsAsia on February 21, 2016, 02:59:11 pm
 Random suggestions:

- Allow BTC and ETH investment or at least BTC deposits that automatically convert to creating BitUSD through BTS.
- 60% sharedrop to BTS holders, let's bring in new blood
- Focus on making the internal exchange more user friendly
- Feature limitation - Let BTS be the experimental features chain, with the internal exchange  and a friendly wallet, you have enough tech that blows away most projects
- Adding MT4 integration

It would be interesting what type of reaction a project with BitShares features that focuses on a smaller subset of key features and without any type of existing reputation.

Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: cube on February 22, 2016, 03:02:44 am
Random suggestions:

- Allow BTC and ETH investment or at least BTC deposits that automatically convert to creating BitUSD through BTS.
- 60% sharedrop to BTS holders, let's bring in new blood
- Focus on making the internal exchange more user friendly
- Feature limitation - Let BTS be the experimental features chain, with the internal exchange  and a friendly wallet, you have enough tech that blows away most projects
- Adding MT4 integration

It would be interesting what type of reaction a project with BitShares features that focuses on a smaller subset of key features and without any type of existing reputation.

On the above suggestions, perhaps @abit @svk  and  @monsterer  can comment on MT4 integration work?

I like to add to the suggestions:

1) Extend to 60-day crowdfunding. Give investors more time to digest and raise fund.
2) Extend crowd funding to other crypto communities
3) Instead of giving the 10mils cap to exchanges, give the extra dshares to dshares LTM.  The bonus is to let LTM members know that they are in the priviledged exclusive club.
4) Have a good simple summary of the benefits the new dshares will bring
5) Please elaborate how the dividend/interest is derived and substained in the long run. Dividend to be limited to crowd-funders and LTMs? Better still, give free LTM to crowdfunders.
6) 3-year maturity sounds good. Like abit mentioned, these share-dropped dshares should be made illiquid (eg can't use for collateral) until maturity.
7) A sufficient notification period for withdrawing bts from exchanges to qualify for sharedrop

And questions:
1) Why choose a value to be 1/7th of BTS?  Why not a simple 1:1 bts or other easier calculation/marketing purpose?
2) Part of the community is concerned with (uncontrolled) dilution.  State on what circumstances that dshare needs dilution or at least give your thoughts on it
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 22, 2016, 05:37:35 am
Random suggestions:

- Allow BTC and ETH investment or at least BTC deposits that automatically convert to creating BitUSD through BTS.
- 60% sharedrop to BTS holders, let's bring in new blood
- Focus on making the internal exchange more user friendly
- Feature limitation - Let BTS be the experimental features chain, with the internal exchange  and a friendly wallet, you have enough tech that blows away most projects
- Adding MT4 integration

It would be interesting what type of reaction a project with BitShares features that focuses on a smaller subset of key features and without any type of existing reputation.

On the above suggestions, perhaps @abit @svk  and  @monsterer  can comment on MT4 integration work?

I like to add to the suggestions:

1) Extend to 60-day crowdfunding. Give investors more time to digest and raise fund.
2) Extend crowd funding to other crypto communities
3) Instead of giving the 10mils cap to exchanges, give the extra dshares to dshares LTM.  The bonus is to let LTM members know that they are in the priviledged exclusive club.
4) Have a good simple summary of the benefits the new dshares will bring
5) Please elaborate how the dividend/interest is derived and substained in the long run. Dividend to be limited to crowd-funders and LTMs? Better still, give free LTM to crowdfunders.
6) 3-year maturity sounds good. Like abit mentioned, these share-dropped dshares should be made illiquid (eg can't use for collateral) until maturity.
7) A sufficient notification period for withdrawing bts from exchanges to qualify for sharedrop

And questions:
1) Why choose a value to be 1/7th of BTS?  Why not a simple 1:1 bts or other easier calculation/marketing purpose?
2) Part of the community is concerned with (uncontrolled) dilution.  State on what circumstances that dshare needs dilution or at least give your thoughts on it

Sorry cube for making it go through reading something no one else did.

So the bishares community consists of mainly no-longer holders, not old enough to drink opinioned full of themselves chicken brains...or their supporters.

So in short - Small is beautiful , smaller is even better.

------------------------
Dilution will never start as soon as we have min viable product paid by the init  dev. fund.
Not having the good for nothing, 70% stake holders being carried just so they can dump... is a great idea I am gravitating towards.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: muse-umum on February 22, 2016, 05:47:45 am
 +5%

Sounds good!
It would be perfect if you put bytemaster's shares in vested and he can only claim them after 2116.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: btswildpig on February 22, 2016, 05:49:01 am
+5%

Sounds good!
It would be perfect if you put bytemaster's shares in vested and he can only claim them 100 years from now.

+10086 .
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: donkeypong on February 22, 2016, 06:02:16 am
I really like this idea. BTS is such a tangled knot at this point that I wouldn't mind starting with something simpler, continuing to believe in and work on both, and see which one is the better experiment.

One thing to consider: With dShares, screw the exchanges, but what becomes even more important here are the gateways and ramps. It does not seem to me like anyone in the BTS community has an automatic tribal opposition to this new fork idea, but hypotethically speaking, if some in the BTS community decide they won't touch the dShares fork, then there could be a problem getting gateways on board. Again, I doubt this will be an issue, but it might be best to check with the present gateways/ramps and make sure that they would be open to working with this platform as well. It certainly could be worth their while financially. 
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: svk on February 22, 2016, 11:47:40 am
Random suggestions:

- Allow BTC and ETH investment or at least BTC deposits that automatically convert to creating BitUSD through BTS.
- 60% sharedrop to BTS holders, let's bring in new blood
- Focus on making the internal exchange more user friendly
- Feature limitation - Let BTS be the experimental features chain, with the internal exchange  and a friendly wallet, you have enough tech that blows away most projects
- Adding MT4 integration

It would be interesting what type of reaction a project with BitShares features that focuses on a smaller subset of key features and without any type of existing reputation.

On the above suggestions, perhaps @abit @svk  and  @monsterer  can comment on MT4 integration work?

I like to add to the suggestions:

1) Extend to 60-day crowdfunding. Give investors more time to digest and raise fund.
2) Extend crowd funding to other crypto communities
3) Instead of giving the 10mils cap to exchanges, give the extra dshares to dshares LTM.  The bonus is to let LTM members know that they are in the priviledged exclusive club.
4) Have a good simple summary of the benefits the new dshares will bring
5) Please elaborate how the dividend/interest is derived and substained in the long run. Dividend to be limited to crowd-funders and LTMs? Better still, give free LTM to crowdfunders.
6) 3-year maturity sounds good. Like abit mentioned, these share-dropped dshares should be made illiquid (eg can't use for collateral) until maturity.
7) A sufficient notification period for withdrawing bts from exchanges to qualify for sharedrop

And questions:
1) Why choose a value to be 1/7th of BTS?  Why not a simple 1:1 bts or other easier calculation/marketing purpose?
2) Part of the community is concerned with (uncontrolled) dilution.  State on what circumstances that dshare needs dilution or at least give your thoughts on it

AFAIK noone is working on MT4 integration, and I suspect it would be very difficult to do so.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: -banano- on February 22, 2016, 01:00:31 pm
Distribution of the new shares:
70% to the active BTS shareholders. Active defined as having their shares in their own account (outside of exchanges).
30% crowd fund/kick starter contributors.

Small is beautiful

Thank you Mr K!

I just bought some BitShares because they looked super cheap, and put them in my own wallet, so now I can have BitShares and dShares too. I had sold them to buy some IOTA a couple months ago  ;D

Please do not compete with micropayments until IOTA is liquid so I can get back into BTS, because right now, I have several BTC non liquid locked in IOTA ICO.

I thought BTS chose not to compete in micropayments

Why now do you choose to take market share from Internet of Things?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1299209.msg13394486#msg13394486

BM said that he would work with IOTA, not compete against them!

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19534.msg251719.states that he will instate competitive pricing?!

Just a couple questions.  What date is the snapshot going to take place? How much will the transaction fee of dShares be?

thank you,

dShares to the moon!

(http://img12.deviantart.net/9a08/i/2012/285/d/4/to_the_moon_by_lemanad-d5hlna8.jpg)
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: TravelsAsia on February 22, 2016, 07:17:08 pm
I really like this idea. BTS is such a tangled knot at this point that I wouldn't mind starting with something simpler, continuing to believe in and work on both, and see which one is the better experiment.


+5 We won't know until we try.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: bytemaster on February 22, 2016, 11:47:46 pm
Just for the record, DSHARES was the original name for my early ideas on stable crypto...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213588.0

 ;D
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 23, 2016, 01:23:44 am
Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

This is just Tony's way of telling the world how much he loves what you have done

Was that any kind of secret before?

What I actually hate, is abandoning something great in search of a new (in my opinion pipe-) dreams.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: TravelsAsia on February 23, 2016, 01:32:43 am
Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

This is just Tony's way of telling the world how much he loves what you have done

Was that any kind of secret before?

What I actually hate, is abandoning something great in search of a new (in my opinion pipe-) dreams.

The support is there for you.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: yvv on February 23, 2016, 02:26:58 am
Quote
Thoughts?

What the hell is this all about?
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: Erlich Bachman on February 23, 2016, 02:34:35 am
Thanks TK

70% sharedrop is mad generous, you got my support

Just snatched up more BTS for this occasion. . Any tentative idea on sharedrop date?

yes, "small is beautiful"

but she usually charges me extra to say that

 :D

good luck!
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on February 23, 2016, 03:11:25 am
Just for the record, DSHARES was the original name for my early ideas on stable crypto...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213588.0

 ;D

Hey check it out.. the new dshares is only a 3 year step back in time. :)

WOO HOOO!!

Maybe we should call it FluxCapacitor.

Maybe it will only need 1.21 gigawatts to catch up to Bitshares.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: tonyk on February 23, 2016, 03:38:21 am
Just for the record, DSHARES was the original name for my early ideas on stable crypto...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213588.0

 ;D

Hey check it out.. the new dshares is only a 3 year step back in time. :)

WOO HOOO!!

Maybe we should call it FluxCapacitor.

Maybe it will only need 1.21 gigawatts to catch up to Bitshares.

Are you trying to forget that your 'advanced' BTS is on fall back plan "C" ; regarding its bitAssets inner workings?

---------
Mutations are very slow (but robust) mechanism of progress. 99.999999% of all mutations are just bad and die. When talk about non-biological things i.e. have clearer definitions of what is better... well the original 'best' outcome wins over all mutations.
Title: Re: Small is beautiful - dShares distribution - Community lead crowd funding
Post by: ebit on February 28, 2016, 12:57:46 pm
Quote
Distribution of the new shares:
70% to the active BTS shareholders. Active defined as having their shares in their own account (outside of exchanges).
My some shares are in buy order.What I have to cancel the buy order  first?