BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on October 29, 2014, 11:10:25 pm

Title: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 29, 2014, 11:10:25 pm
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community

BitShares is a community of likeminded individuals working together to make the world a better place.  The only way to become a member of our community is via proof of work.   PTS miners did work to create and secure our first membership token.   AGS donators have proven their support by giving resources they had to work to earn.   Delegates are continuing to do the work to grow the community and realize our vision.

BitShares are Proof of Work. 

Companies are contractual entities while communities are voluntary associations.   We want to work together and recognize the contributions of each member to helping the community grow and achieve its ultimate mission, world peace.  In our community it is imperative that each individual produce more value than they consume and equally so that no individual be expected to sacrifice themselves disproportionally for the group.   

We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

BitShares will be a self-governing community which elects delegates who serve the community and enforce the social consensus that majority stakeholder opinion rules.   

The BitShares community is a contract-free zone where at no point in time shall there exist a legal obligation for any party to behave any way in the future.   We shall stick to these principles and rely on reputation and community coordination to facilitate efficient commerce with low overhead. 

To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community.  Details of this plan are still under review, but at the end of the day the result will be that no one developer will have "king making authority" for delegates.    People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.   I also wish for the development of BTS to continue regardless of what the SEC or government attempts to accuse I3 of.   BTS is bigger than any one of us and has the potential to unite everyone under a fully voluntary society. 

Lets make this happen... lets change the world and reimagine BitShares.



Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: donkeypong on October 29, 2014, 11:21:13 pm
Love it.

BitShares, DACOM?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 29, 2014, 11:24:39 pm
Hopefully this post wont result in yet another 10%+ BTSX tanking like the "merger" proposal thread, whereby those out there who want to see bitshares drop will use anything and everything in an attempt to FUD, and weak and stupid hands will dump their shares.    (Would be nice to have a day where I could do something other than be sick about the BTSX price dropping again).


I definitely get the impression from everything that has happened that funding for development is being moved away from anything that the government could potentially try to attack/fine (i.e. I3), and towards a goal of each developer being paid for by Bitshares, by shareholder vote, with accountability, and in a way where development can continue and be sustained no matter what attacks Bitshares comes under.

On one hand, that is great.  On the other, it makes me fearful that attacks are coming.  Still, much better to be prepared in advance.  To have a plan whereby Bitshares can continue to grow and thrive no matter what happens.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: arhag on October 29, 2014, 11:25:50 pm
BitShares is a community of likeminded individuals working together to make the world a better place.  The only way to become a member of our community is via proof of work.
Wah?!   :o ...
AGS donators have proven their support by giving resources they had to work to earn.   Delegates are continuing to do the work to grow the community and realize our vision.
Ohhh... nice pun! I can't wait to use that one on the Bitcoin community.


We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) ...

That is going to be incredibly difficult to adjust to.


To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community.  Details of this plan are still under review, but at the end of the day the result will be that no one developer will have "king making authority" for delegates.    People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.   I also wish for the development of BTS to continue regardless of what the SEC or government attempts to accuse I3 of.   BTS is bigger than any one of us and has the potential to unite everyone under a fully voluntary society. 

So that is the other way of doing it I guess. It is easier to implement than the "source locks" I proposed but it still doesn't provide as much security and flexibility to the community (are we sure we can we really trust each of these members with such a significant stake of wealth?), so I don't prefer it.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 29, 2014, 11:26:43 pm
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community

BitShares is a community of likeminded individuals working together to make the world a better place.  The only way to become a member of our community is via proof of work.   PTS miners did work to create and secure our first membership token.   AGS donators have proven their support by giving resources they had to work to earn.   Delegates are continuing to do the work to grow the community and realize our vision.

BitShares are Proof of Work. 

Companies are contractual entities while communities are voluntary associations.   We want to work together and recognize the contributions of each member to helping the community grow and achieve its ultimate mission, world peace.  In our community it is imperative that each individual produce more value than they consume and equally so that no individual be expected to sacrifice themselves disproportionally for the group.   

We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

BitShares will be a self-governing community which elects delegates who serve the community and enforce the social consensus that majority stakeholder opinion rules.   

The BitShares community is a contract-free zone where at no point in time shall there exist a legal obligation for any party to behave any way in the future.   We shall stick to these principles and rely on reputation and community coordination to facilitate efficient commerce with low overhead. 

To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community.  Details of this plan are still under review, but at the end of the day the result will be that no one developer will have "king making authority" for delegates.    People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.   I also wish for the development of BTS to continue regardless of what the SEC or government attempts to accuse I3 of.   BTS is bigger than any one of us and has the potential to unite everyone under a fully voluntary society. 

Lets make this happen... lets change the world and reimagine BitShares.

 +5% +5% +5%
The community really needed this announcement.


BitShares is a community of likeminded individuals working together to make the world a better place.  The only way to become a member of our community is via proof of work.
Wah?!   :o ...
A guiding principle is reciprocity. You have to give to receive in nature. If you plant a million seeds it might cost you time but it could yield a bounty of crops in the future.

I don't know how many people here believe in God but whether you do or you don't the earth we have is a gift. If you give to it you can get more from it in the future. A community works in a similar way where if you want to grow it you have to give resources to it so that in the future you can rely on it's gifts.

Let's look at what we have or could have:

1) Decentralized trust with privacy. We can trust each other enforced by algorithmic social measures instead of legal.

2) Decentralized reputation with privacy. We will know from experience how trustworthy we can all be in a way which can be quantifiable. The more "Big Data" we collect the more accurate our measurements will become and once again with algorithmic enforcement the scammer has to deal with the self enforcing contract.

3) Decentralized decision making with privacy. If we can trust each other and know each other's reputation then we become like a society of friends. We can trade with each other and make big important decisions while maintaining pseudo-anonymity (privacy).

On top of this we can organize ourselves into legal structures which promote and encourage trust/reputation. Basically the legal structures only really would have to exist to supplement the algorithmic social structures. The problems come when we speak in a language which attracts enforcement entities that our community does not need or want.

So we have to use the language which makes sense for what our community is trying to be. Our community will develop algorithms which will measure trust and reputation well enough that sooner or later there will not be a need for contracts. Just someone's word will be enough because their reputation will be their most important asset.

This means it will be in their own best interest to maintain that reputation. The threat of prison never really stopped people from scamming each other but if you wonder why everyone isn't a scammer it's because some people care more about their reputation and others don't. So by keeping score of how much each person cares about the community or how much each person gives back you can form legal structures around that data formula.

Decentralized trust and reputation are very powerful and I think so far most of the world underestimates how powerful. If we had those two components then all the institutions and legal enforcers set up wouldn't be necessary.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Mysto on October 29, 2014, 11:34:20 pm
On the other, it makes me fearful that attacks are coming.

The attackers will inevitably come. Whether it is this year or in 5, one thing is for certain they will come...

I don't think this will hurt the price of BTS but if it does I would rather a little price drop now than the destruction of BTS when the attackers come.

 +5% to the OP

Edit: It's going to be a lot harder to explain BTS without those metaphors.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 29, 2014, 11:43:37 pm
 +5% I like it
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: yellowecho on October 29, 2014, 11:56:36 pm
Companies are contractual entities while communities are voluntary associations.
...
BitShares will be a self-governing community which elects delegates who serve the community and enforce the social consensus that majority stakeholder opinion rules.   

The BitShares community is a contract-free zone where at no point in time shall there exist a legal obligation for any party to behave any way in the future.   We shall stick to these principles and rely on reputation and community coordination to facilitate efficient commerce with low overhead. 
...
BTS is bigger than any one of us and has the potential to unite everyone under a fully voluntary society. 

Lets make this happen... lets change the world and reimagine BitShares.

 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
Giving a whole new meaning to DACs-  I absolutely love it!! 
After reading the FollowMyVote whitepaper and hearing this news, I'm seriously getting chill bumps.. our Decentralized Autonomous Community could truly change the world!  I feel proud and honored being a part of it.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: pseudoscops on October 30, 2014, 12:14:43 am
When you are preaching to the choir this sounds awesome. When you are not, it becomes a tougher sell.

I have to ask - was this run through Brian and the marketing team before being announced? What is Brian's view on this if so? I think it's really important for the community to know that it was at least discussed with him first? Because if it wasn't and I were him, I'd be really pissed right now and losing patience. This decision will radically alter the marketing message he has to push going forward.

I realise that there are larger things at play here than just marketing, SEC etc, but on first blush this decision does not seem to have had much community discussion. The decision, it appears, has already been made. No real discussion, at least not here on the forum. Seems kinda perverse given the nature of the post.

My Spidey senses are tingling again, I honestly can't work out if it's in a good or a bad way yet. Better sleep on it I guess.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 30, 2014, 12:38:10 am
I have to ask - was this run through Brian and the marketing team before being announced? What is Brian's view on this if so? I think it's really important for the community to know that it was at least discussed with him first?

Its probably actually coming from Marketing, (and/or Legal). 

I think BM has learned by now not to just randomly post his thoughts on the forum, after what happened last time.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: fuzzy on October 30, 2014, 12:47:26 am
We (our greed) will be our own worst enemy.  Always rememer that.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: GaltReport on October 30, 2014, 12:50:03 am
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community

...
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community... People have stated that I have "too much power", ...

I totally get the idea of creating an autonomous "company" and will be interested to see what you mean by
"work together as independent parties".  Sounds a little at odds with itself.

I hope it hasn't escaped your notice that some people want you to be in charge and to make decisions as the leader that you are and that their confidence and willingness to invest in this is based on that.  Having an army of people "in charge" doesn't inspire confidence IMHO.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.  As you've said, decentralization is a tactic, not an end in itself.  Just saying...my 2 cents.

Edit: Real companies have leaders that take charge and make decisions, granted they work with a team but still, there is someone that is accountable and serves to set the agenda and marshal the resources of the organization. 
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 12:57:53 am
I have to ask - was this run through Brian and the marketing team before being announced? What is Brian's view on this if so? I think it's really important for the community to know that it was at least discussed with him first?

Its probably actually coming from Marketing, (and/or Legal). 

I think BM has learned by now not to just randomly post his thoughts on the forum, after what happened last time.

This overall goal was discussed with the team and Adam from Follow My Vote and we are coordinating with Brian to revamp the marketing for the BitShares launch.    Adam is really a huge asset and is helping us a lot.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 12:59:43 am
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community

...
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community... People have stated that I have "too much power", ...

I totally get the idea of creating an autonomous "company" and will be interested to see what you mean by
"work together as independent parties".  Sounds a little at odds with itself.

I hope it hasn't escaped your notice that some people want you to be in charge and to make decisions as the leader that you are and that their confidence and willingness to invest in this is based on that.  Having an army of people "in charge" doesn't inspire confidence IMHO.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.  As you've said, decentralization is a tactic, not an end in itself.  Just saying...my 2 cents.

Edit: Real companies have leaders that take charge and make decisions, granted they work with a team but still, there is someone that is accountable and serves to set the agenda and marshal the resources of the organization.

There are leaders and then there are rulers.   I hope the lead the team without ruling the team.   
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 30, 2014, 01:03:02 am
I also hope it hasn't escaped your notice that some people want you to be in charge and to make decisions as the leader that you are and that their confidence and willingness to invest in this is based on that.  Having an army of people "in charge" doesn't inspire confidence IMHO.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.  As you've said, decentralization is a tactic, not an end in itself.  Just saying...my 2 cents.

I agree.  In Bytemaster we trust.


When we had the whole 'merger' proposal thread a couple weeks back, my reaction was super positive, and the market's reaction was violently negative.
My reaction to this post is more negative.  I dont see how it really helps anything, aside from potentially protecting from legal attacks.  Who knows what the market will do, everyone else is apparently crazy, so maybe BTSX will go up now
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: pseudoscops on October 30, 2014, 01:09:52 am
I have to ask - was this run through Brian and the marketing team before being announced? What is Brian's view on this if so? I think it's really important for the community to know that it was at least discussed with him first?

Its probably actually coming from Marketing, (and/or Legal). 

I think BM has learned by now not to just randomly post his thoughts on the forum, after what happened last time.



This overall goal was discussed with the team and Adam from Follow My Vote and we are coordinating with Brian to revamp the marketing for the BitShares launch.    Adam is really a huge asset and is helping us a lot.

That's great to know. Do I take from this that Adam is now taking a more active role in the day to day marketing efforts and general marketing direction and that Brian is more focused on selected marketing tasks and the on-ramps?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: fuzzy on October 30, 2014, 01:11:49 am
I am actually comforted...and needed to hear something like this.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: GaltReport on October 30, 2014, 01:12:12 am
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community

...
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community... People have stated that I have "too much power", ...

I totally get the idea of creating an autonomous "company" and will be interested to see what you mean by
"work together as independent parties".  Sounds a little at odds with itself.

I hope it hasn't escaped your notice that some people want you to be in charge and to make decisions as the leader that you are and that their confidence and willingness to invest in this is based on that.  Having an army of people "in charge" doesn't inspire confidence IMHO.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.  As you've said, decentralization is a tactic, not an end in itself.  Just saying...my 2 cents.

Edit: Real companies have leaders that take charge and make decisions, granted they work with a team but still, there is someone that is accountable and serves to set the agenda and marshal the resources of the organization.

There are leaders and then there are rulers.   I hope the lead the team without ruling the team.

I don't think anyone could justifiably accuse you of ruling over them.  I've never seen anyone have has much patience, take as much input from people and accept and objectively evaluate as much criticism as you.   Nevertheless, I understand the forces at play here, internal as well as external and don't really disagree. 

I Just want you to still be the leader that many of us admire and look to for direction. :)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 30, 2014, 01:16:56 am
There are leaders and then there are rulers.   I hope the lead the team without ruling the team.

This I totally agree with.

/vote for Bytemaster as leader but not dictator. :)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: julian1 on October 30, 2014, 01:20:15 am
Quote
PTS miners did work to create and secure our first membership token.   AGS donators have proven their support by giving resources they had to work to earn.   Delegates are continuing to do the work to grow the community and realize our vision.

BitShares are Proof of Work.

Folks that missed PTS and AGS but who instead choose to commit their work-job earnings to purchasing BTS/X and other assets should also be considered to be part of our community, due to voting and also because their stock rises or falls in-line with the delegates' success in enhancing Bitshares value to the world.

Quote
We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against

Personally, I became attracted to Bitshares, after spending some time researching bitcoin, because it appeared to take a more sophisticated view of what can be done with blockchain/public ledger  technology - apart from 'just' creating a currency.

The possibilities for hedging/trading/futures/options/smart contracts/documentary proof/aggregated assets etc seemed to be a lot more in tune with what finance/investment folk deal with on a day to day basis.

At the same time, I can see there may be a need to try and avoid any presumption that joining the Bitshares community demonstrates an intention to create a legal relationship, and thus drag in the jurisdiction of regulators etc.

It may also be more appealing to a broader community which I guess is something that the marketers are in the best position to assess.

Anyway, I am very excited to be a part of this experience.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 01:25:43 am
BM, I very pleased with your OP,  +5%. It is yet another major shift in the complexion of BitShares and will definitely require much community discussion and a change of how the community views itself.

BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
...
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community... People have stated that I have "too much power", ...

I totally get the idea of creating an autonomous "company" and will be interested to see what you mean by
"work together as independent parties".  Sounds a little at odds with itself.

I hope it hasn't escaped your notice that some people want you to be in charge and to make decisions as the leader that you are and that their confidence and willingness to invest in this is based on that.  Having an army of people "in charge" doesn't inspire confidence IMHO.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way.  As you've said, decentralization is a tactic, not an end in itself.  Just saying...my 2 cents.

Edit: Real companies have leaders that take charge and make decisions, granted they work with a team but still, there is someone that is accountable and serves to set the agenda and marshal the resources of the organization.

I see no problem:
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.

I do see a bit of confusion in your OP given that our rebranded name is still BitShares. The language in your OP says we'll be moving away from the "shares" terminology / metaphor. Would you care to elaborate on this point?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Mysto on October 30, 2014, 01:31:39 am
I do see a bit of confusion in your OP given that our rebranded name is still BitShares. The language in your OP says we'll be moving away from the "shares" terminology / metaphor. Would you care to elaborate on this point?
^This

I think those metaphors work pretty well. Honestly I can't think of a better way to explain bitshares.
If we HAVE to move away from them because of something legal then that is fine.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: zerosum on October 30, 2014, 01:35:44 am

I am just waiting for Rune to put the positive spin on the OP... I do believe he can!
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 01:39:58 am
I do see a bit of confusion in your OP given that our rebranded name is still BitShares. The language in your OP says we'll be moving away from the "shares" terminology / metaphor. Would you care to elaborate on this point?
^This

I think those metaphors work pretty well. Honestly I can't think of a better way to explain bitshares.
If we HAVE to move away from them because of something legal then that is fine.

Bitshares is fine. Bitcoin is fine. But if you say Bitcoin is a corporation and Satoshi Nakamoto is the CEO then that could be problematic for Satoshi Nakamoto if regulators were to interpret it literally.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 01:41:34 am

I am just waiting for Rune to put the positive spin on the OP... I do believe he can!

I like the gist of it, but would like more information about this:
We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

This concerns me.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 01:53:19 am

I am just waiting for Rune to put the positive spin on the OP... I do believe he can!

I like the gist of it, but would like more information about this:
We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

This concerns me.

Why? I think what he is trying to say is that we need our own economic language and concepts else we will be put into a box with entities which don't or can't do what we do.

Bitshares is a decentralized application which has functions which make it like a cooperative but it's not a company. So when we define ourselves we should do so carefully so that what we are doing is understood but also in a way so that regulators who don't understand cannot use it as an excuse.

If you want Bitshares to be treated as sovereign then it has to use it's own language. Of course these are my opinions and I think the community would benefit long term from this but I'm interested in knowing why it concerns you.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Method-X on October 30, 2014, 01:58:25 am
Generally I like what you're saying here BUT I find using a company metaphor the best way to describe what BitShares actually is. What is a company? It's a community. It makes more sense to describe BitShares as an "unmanned company". People actually get excited when I describe it like that. This change might be important for legal reasons, but in my opinion will only further lead to confusion. People are having a REALLY hard time wrapping their head around what this is...

EDIT: I think the term "open source company" sums up what we are quite nicely. BitShares is literally an open source project + monetary incentive.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: carpet ride on October 30, 2014, 02:03:07 am
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community

We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

the entire business analogy should not be excluded nor be the exception unless there is a stronger description or metaphor we aren't aware of yet; "it's a business" is our best pitch

edit: Why even be bit"shares" if we plan on leaving the company metaphor in the dust?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Stan on October 30, 2014, 02:26:40 am
You can still use your favorite simpler metaphor if you like.  BitShares is (among other things) a community supporting a company that generates currencies.  And the ultimate metric and engine of our success will be the demand the community is able to generate for those currencies.   Most of what you have learned about BitShares still applies.  But there is now much more to learn!

That said, the community metaphor gives us a whole lot more free space in which to maneuver!

:)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 02:29:06 am

I am just waiting for Rune to put the positive spin on the OP... I do believe he can!

I like the gist of it, but would like more information about this:
We have long used the company metaphor to describe BitShares X as a bank and exchange and thrown around words like shares, dividends, dilution, merger, interest, etc.   I would like to officially strike all such language from the rebranded BitShares (BTS) to be launched because it does not fit with what we are really doing and those words work against us in every way except understanding the economic consequences of various decisions. 

This concerns me.

Why? I think what he is trying to say is that we need our own economic language and concepts else we will be put into a box with entities which don't or can't do what we do.

Bitshares is a decentralized application which has functions which make it like a cooperative but it's not a company. So when we define ourselves we should do so carefully so that what we are doing is understood but also in a way so that regulators who don't understand cannot use it as an excuse.

If you want Bitshares to be treated as sovereign then it has to use it's own language. Of course these are my opinions and I think the community would benefit long term from this but I'm interested in knowing why it concerns you.

I appreciate your interest luckybit. I'm not the only one:

This change might be important for legal reasons, but in my opinion will only further lead to confusion. People are having a REALLY hard time wrapping their head around what this is...

EDIT: I think the term "open source company" sums up what we are quite nicely. BitShares is literally an open source project + monetary incentive.

1) The financial terminology works for many reasons, so we shouldn't jettison it without much community discussion.
2) We might be distancing what we have accomplished, before we say what we're going to do.
3) A huge amount of information, FAQ, whitepapers, websites, interviews and other media / documentation might need to be scrapped to support such a major shift.
4) We'll have to "un"market our previous message, otherwise the new msg will just confuse people.

I think this could be a real positive thing, but it is rather disappointing such a msg is dropped late in the day, especially since it  conveys such a major shift in how we have previously marketed and defined ourselves in the past.

Although I believe it was certainly thought out and vetted much better than the merger announcement, it still feels like it was "sprung" on us, even if nothing else in the timing (late in the day).

And keep in mind this feedback is coming from a guy that is far from experienced with derivatives, futures and all the financial jargon. But it's not about how easy or difficult such concepts are for me, but rather how well they fit with what we're doing and the markets we're trying to reach.

Face it, our main thrust is focused on the financial sector. I don't see that changing. If the shift is preemptive to avoid legal issues I'm all in for however we need to spin our persona to accomplish the mission while sidestepping the politicians.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: godzirra on October 30, 2014, 02:31:47 am
'Shares' can also be understood as a verb. A community motivated to work together by sharing.
That seems just as appropriate.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 02:35:06 am
'Shares' can also be understood as a verb. A community motivated to work together by sharing.
That seems just as appropriate.

That's a good point, but if that were the intended meaning the name should drop the trailing "s" to become BitShare
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: fluxer555 on October 30, 2014, 02:36:03 am
'Shares' can also be understood as a verb. A community motivated to work together by sharing.
That seems just as appropriate.

What a twist...

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: fluxer555 on October 30, 2014, 02:38:22 am
'Shares' can also be understood as a verb. A community motivated to work together by sharing.
That seems just as appropriate.

That's a good point, but if that were the intended meaning the name should drop the trailing "s" to become BitShare

Not necessarily, 'shares' can mean 'multiple instances of sharing'. so BitShares would be describing a collection of shares, shared by community members.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Stan on October 30, 2014, 02:40:23 am
Keep in mind that this community will have many faces.  Just like the users of a BitShares debit card or a voting booth or a day-trader's console don't need to know the whole backstory.   

But there will be times when a bigger metaphor is needed to communicate the entire vision and legal theory of operation.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

(http://www.stuartwilde.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The-Maxtix.jpeg)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Method-X on October 30, 2014, 02:41:42 am
So why not just declare BitShares a sovereign country on a blockchain...
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: oldman on October 30, 2014, 02:44:55 am
BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community.  Details of this plan are still under review, but at the end of the day the result will be that no one developer will have "king making authority" for delegates.    People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.   I also wish for the development of BTS to continue regardless of what the SEC or government attempts to accuse I3 of.   BTS is bigger than any one of us and has the potential to unite everyone under a fully voluntary society. 

I would ask that this happen only after a MVP BitShares product is in place - ie. stable client, basic feature set, major bugs ironed out.

It would be terrible if BM identified another opportunity like the merger and was not be able to implement because the 'community' does not want to inconvenience share price.

BitShares is not ready for Dad to take the training wheels off just yet. I'd say give it at least six months and then disband I3 and divvy the remaining funds.

Generally I like what you're saying here BUT I find using a company metaphor the best way to describe what BitShares actually is. What is a company? It's a community. It makes more sense to describe BitShares as an "unmanned company". People actually get excited when I describe it like that. This change might be important for legal reasons, but in my opinion will only further lead to confusion. People are having a REALLY hard time wrapping their head around what this is...

EDIT: I think the term "open source company" sums up what we are quite nicely. BitShares is literally an open source project + monetary incentive.

I agree with MeTHoDx on this one.

The term 'DAC' is already out in the wild and folks that invest in BitShares expect to be investing in a company.

Companies produce profit, communities produce people.

I like BM's philosophy and I think BitShares + Meshnet might actually have a shot at changing the world.

But first things first - this community needs to build a profitable, self-sustaining DAC.

Then we can go change the world.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 02:45:21 am
Keep in mind that this community will have many faces.  Just like the users of a BitShares debit card or a voting booth or a day-trader's console don't need to know the whole backstory.   

But there will be times when a bigger metaphor is needed to communicate the entire vision and legal theory of operation.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

(http://www.stuartwilde.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The-Maxtix.jpeg)

The Matrix is oine of my all time favorite movies, but it is deep. I thought the new BTS was about simplifying the message. How deep does this marketing hole go Stan? Perhap.s we should stop chasing rabbits and listen to the oldman oldmen
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 02:51:41 am
So why not just declare BitShares a sovereign country on a blockchain...

R U trying to start a war?  :o

Interesting, but I'd prefer "virtual, borderless community on a blockchain" and get away from statist lingo like country.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 03:33:12 am

So why not just declare BitShares a sovereign country on a blockchain...

Thought about this.  But the masses would laugh at such a thing. 
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: starspirit on October 30, 2014, 03:35:24 am
We want to work together and recognize the contributions of each member to helping the community grow and achieve its ultimate mission, world peace.
For the benefit of attracting a wider community, I think it would be helpful to list some of the ways members can do this and be recognised, apart from the limited number of delegate roles. How do community members without developer skills meaningfully contribute?
Title: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 03:39:15 am
Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 03:41:12 am

We want to work together and recognize the contributions of each member to helping the community grow and achieve its ultimate mission, world peace.
For the benefit of attracting a wider community, I think it would be helpful to list some of the ways members can do this and be recognised, apart from the limited number of delegate roles. How do community members without developer skills meaningfully contribute?

I am working with Adam to create jobs for everyone to earn money by helping to market without dilution. 
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: jwiz168 on October 30, 2014, 03:44:50 am
Great work BM , so this some sort of delegates for hire scheme?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 04:08:25 am
So why not just declare BitShares a sovereign country on a blockchain...
You start by declaring yourself a community, then you build in as much utility as you can so that community can be self sufficient. It's not a blockchain country but it could become one if we want it to.

Even thinking of Bitshares as a cooperative is more accurate than a corporation but community is the most accurate for what we are today. It's not a country as you'd need so many DACs to not just exist but be connected to each other. You would also need the Internet of Things to be in place.

BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
To this end the funds held by I3 for development will be divided among the core developers who will work together as independent parties to grow the community.  Details of this plan are still under review, but at the end of the day the result will be that no one developer will have "king making authority" for delegates.    People have stated that I have "too much power", but I do not wish to rely of fiat to get things done, but instead on my ability to persuade the community.   I also wish for the development of BTS to continue regardless of what the SEC or government attempts to accuse I3 of.   BTS is bigger than any one of us and has the potential to unite everyone under a fully voluntary society. 

I would ask that this happen only after a MVP BitShares product is in place - ie. stable client, basic feature set, major bugs ironed out.

It would be terrible if BM identified another opportunity like the merger and was not be able to implement because the 'community' does not want to inconvenience share price.

BitShares is not ready for Dad to take the training wheels off just yet. I'd say give it at least six months and then disband I3 and divvy the remaining funds.

Generally I like what you're saying here BUT I find using a company metaphor the best way to describe what BitShares actually is. What is a company? It's a community. It makes more sense to describe BitShares as an "unmanned company". People actually get excited when I describe it like that. This change might be important for legal reasons, but in my opinion will only further lead to confusion. People are having a REALLY hard time wrapping their head around what this is...

EDIT: I think the term "open source company" sums up what we are quite nicely. BitShares is literally an open source project + monetary incentive.

I agree with MeTHoDx on this one.

The term 'DAC' is already out in the wild and folks that invest in BitShares expect to be investing in a company.

Companies produce profit, communities produce people.

I like BM's philosophy and I think BitShares + Meshnet might actually have a shot at changing the world.

But first things first - this community needs to build a profitable, self-sustaining DAC.

Then we can go change the world.

An interesting fact is the term Decentralized Autonomous Community has existed prior to Decentralized Autonomous Corporation. So switching to a Decentralized Autonomous Community will make what Bitshares is a bit more clear to certain people while people who are speculators might get confused.

I think if you understand the philosophical and political reasons behind Bitshares then it always was a Decentralized Autonomous Community. The community is what gives meaning to a DAC. If the community is important then it must survive whether or not Bytemaster is in the position to lead it.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 04:14:11 am

So why not just declare BitShares a sovereign country on a blockchain...

Thought about this.  But the masses would laugh at such a thing.

They would right now. Five or ten years from now it could be entirely different.

So right now we are building a community which can over time take on all the necessary functions so that if in the future it becomes possible then the metaphor can change.

Community, Cooperative, Country, Corporation. I would think in different countries to different people it could be marketed in a different way with a different metaphor. In the United States corporations aren't a good metaphor and country is science fiction to most people.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: BTSdac on October 30, 2014, 04:17:43 am
every body or team can join this community by buying BTS, developing code , marketing. supporting bitusd. create assets.  ..................   +5% +5%
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Method-X on October 30, 2014, 04:18:16 am
Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: JWF on October 30, 2014, 04:18:33 am

We want to work together and recognize the contributions of each member to helping the community grow and achieve its ultimate mission, world peace.
For the benefit of attracting a wider community, I think it would be helpful to list some of the ways members can do this and be recognised, apart from the limited number of delegate roles. How do community members without developer skills meaningfully contribute?

I am working with Adam to create jobs for everyone to earn money by helping to market without dilution.

This is one of the answers I have been looking for, a meaningful way for us little guys with not much ability to actually contribute. I look forward to your/Adam's creation.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 04:24:07 am
Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.
This is the same sort of debate about whether Bitcoin is a coin, a currency or a commodity. Bitcoin is more than a coin, currency or commodity. Currency is an app. Coin is a description to make it easier to understand (like company for Bitshares).
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: kisa on October 30, 2014, 04:33:15 am
The only thing that remains constant is change. We've got to get used to that in order to be successful in this game :)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: yellowecho on October 30, 2014, 04:44:36 am
Community, Cooperative, Country, Corporation. I would think in different countries to different people it could be marketed in a different way with a different metaphor. In the United States corporations aren't a good metaphor and country is science fiction to most people.

BitShares loves DACs; all nouns starting with a C are fair game  :P
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: lovejoy on October 30, 2014, 05:14:05 am
I think this is a brilliant direction
strategically as well as ideologically

It certainly raises some questions
as to how these things are communicated
as wider adoption occurs

but this is such a paradigm shift
dressing it up in the old language and concepts
probably is a burden to the vision

after all...

We're not trying to beat anyone at their own game
We're changing the game

A system of agreements
Among a voluntary society of friends
Decentralized Autonomous Community

The torch is advancing
Enlightened self organization is not only possible, but inevitable
And this is one aware and advanced community
it's an honor and a privilege

further thoughts
leadership is a useful thing
I don't believe decentralization can function well without leadership
the spectrum of leadership is simply more granular
leadership is necessarily provisional, and reputation based
decentralization also, it has been mentioned, is a tactic rather than a strategy

if you're on a ship in perilous waters, best to trust in the captain to make fast course corrections
attempting to reach consensus in such times can leave you dashed upon the rocks
delegated authority
something this community knows well.

This just keeps getting better and better
I think we have a great community here
And we are more than equal to the challenges

One last thought on those who aren't sure how to contribute for lack of technical wizardry

IMHO there is ample room for creativity in language, image, organization of information, and coordination between this amazing pool of talent to more than justify a healthy dose of non-technical delegates with the capacity to carry and evolve this vision, and see projects through to completion.  There is an amazing diversity of talent here, and it makes us strong.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: zerosum on October 30, 2014, 05:29:31 am
Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.

Yes!
There was a message. Pretty powerful one, indeed!

Message, Vision, Idea!

In which all of us believe(d), more or less; some sooner, some later; some totally, some only in the core principals;

Now all of a sudden comes this - lets build Bla-bla Bla-bla Community - not only totally uninspiring, but already accomplished!
We do have a community. No need to build one with some adjectives in front of it.

And no, I do not believe we have achieved our goal if we force a half-a** constitution on the king,




If we want a republic there should be no king!

If we want better business model(s) for our kids, we should not hide behind false pretenses that this is not a business!


Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: yellowecho on October 30, 2014, 05:32:41 am
Why can't we all just agree that DAC stands for Decentralized Autonomous Consensus?  8)

Consensus comes in many forms.. whether its in the form of a community, a company, a corporation, a co-operative, or a country.. BitShares provides consensus and that's what matters.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: robust8 on October 30, 2014, 05:40:56 am
Just one experiment……
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Method-X on October 30, 2014, 06:09:52 am
Decentralized Autonomous Network... DAN

It was SO meant to be!
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: yellowecho on October 30, 2014, 06:35:49 am
Decentralized Autonomous Network... DAN

It was SO meant to be!

Technological Organization Autonomously Securing Trust

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: thazel72 on October 30, 2014, 06:56:05 am
How is a stakeholder looked at in the eyes of the law? I would say that we are all more or less stakeholders in a Distributed Autonomous Community. I think this would also offer the easiest branding switch to make without confusing the hell out of people even more than Bitshares already does. Having a stake in this new community is more important to me than a share in some distributed autonomous corporation.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: starspirit on October 30, 2014, 07:00:15 am
In a modern free-market economy with contract-based rights (or the closest we can get to one) all citizens have the opportunity to earn shares in that economy (wealth) through the value of the work they perform. Same opportunity as BitShares. All citizens must produce more value than they consume, or they go bankrupt. Same obligation as BitShares. All business owners get a vote according to their stake. Same right as BitShares. (* not at government level however, which is majority based).

The core difference in values or principle seems to reside in the concept of behaviours modified by social norms rather than contracts. So I would like to understand the perceived benefits of that more than I currently do. And I also have a concern that for funds committed to the enterprise, the manner in which the reward is made manifest is looking less clear. Those with a traditional "investor" mindset (whoops -that word!) are not necessarily comfortable with that.

I'm open to it, just want to understand it better.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 30, 2014, 07:02:29 am
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: lovejoy on October 30, 2014, 07:15:49 am

A guiding principle is reciprocity. You have to give to receive in nature. If you plant a million seeds it might cost you time but it could yield a bounty of crops in the future.

I don't know how many people here believe in God but whether you do or you don't the earth we have is a gift. If you give to it you can get more from it in the future. A community works in a similar way where if you want to grow it you have to give resources to it so that in the future you can rely on it's gifts.

Let's look at what we have or could have:

1) Decentralized trust with privacy. We can trust each other enforced by algorithmic social measures instead of legal.

2) Decentralized reputation with privacy. We will know from experience how trustworthy we can all be in a way which can be quantifiable. The more "Big Data" we collect the more accurate our measurements will become and once again with algorithmic enforcement the scammer has to deal with the self enforcing contract.

3) Decentralized decision making with privacy. If we can trust each other and know each other's reputation then we become like a society of friends. We can trade with each other and make big important decisions while maintaining pseudo-anonymity (privacy).

On top of this we can organize ourselves into legal structures which promote and encourage trust/reputation. Basically the legal structures only really would have to exist to supplement the algorithmic social structures. The problems come when we speak in a language which attracts enforcement entities that our community does not need or want.

So we have to use the language which makes sense for what our community is trying to be. Our community will develop algorithms which will measure trust and reputation well enough that sooner or later there will not be a need for contracts. Just someone's word will be enough because their reputation will be their most important asset.

This means it will be in their own best interest to maintain that reputation. The threat of prison never really stopped people from scamming each other but if you wonder why everyone isn't a scammer it's because some people care more about their reputation and others don't. So by keeping score of how much each person cares about the community or how much each person gives back you can form legal structures around that data formula.

Decentralized trust and reputation are very powerful and I think so far most of the world underestimates how powerful. If we had those two components then all the institutions and legal enforcers set up wouldn't be necessary.

 +5% +5% +5%

Yes!

As with this:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.msg140010#msg140010
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: thazel72 on October 30, 2014, 07:28:05 am
I would say that the definition of a stakeholder fits well with what BM is talking about. The definition and application of stakeholder almost perfectly align with the overall view of the community.

A corporate stakeholder can affect or be affected by the actions of a business as a whole. The stakeholder concept was first used in a 1963 internal memorandum at the Stanford Research Institute. It defined stakeholders as "those groups without whose support the organization would cease to exist."

Stakeholders:Stakeholder's concerns: Applications
Government - taxation, VAT, legislation, employment, truthful reporting, diversity, legalities, externalities.
Employee - rates of pay, job security, compensation, respect, truthful communication.
Customers - value, quality, customer care, ethical products.
Suppliers - providers of products and services used in the end product for the customer, equitable business opportunities.
Creditors - credit score, new contracts, liquidity.
Community - jobs, involvement, environmental protection, shares, truthful communication.
Trade Unions - quality, worker protection, jobs.
Owner(s) -profitability, longevity, market share, market standing, succession planning, raising capital, growth, social goals.
Investors   return on investment, income.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: cube on October 30, 2014, 07:28:53 am
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Frodo on October 30, 2014, 07:41:46 am
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

Lol made my day.
But I agree the company metaphor was working great and I would like to use it further if it is some how possible.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 07:44:22 am
I would say that the definition of a stakeholder fits well with what BM is talking about. The definition and application of stakeholder almost perfectly align with the overall view of the community.

A corporate stakeholder can affect or be affected by the actions of a business as a whole. The stakeholder concept was first used in a 1963 internal memorandum at the Stanford Research Institute. It defined stakeholders as "those groups without whose support the organization would cease to exist."

Stakeholders:Stakeholder's concerns: Applications
Government - taxation, VAT, legislation, employment, truthful reporting, diversity, legalities, externalities.
Employee - rates of pay, job security, compensation, respect, truthful communication.
Customers - value, quality, customer care, ethical products.
Suppliers - providers of products and services used in the end product for the customer, equitable business opportunities.
Creditors - credit score, new contracts, liquidity.
Community - jobs, involvement, environmental protection, shares, truthful communication.
Trade Unions - quality, worker protection, jobs.
Owner(s) -profitability, longevity, market share, market standing, succession planning, raising capital, growth, social goals.
Investors   return on investment, income.

Stakeholder is a viable alternative to shareholder. Of course we are stakeholders but what we hold a stake in is a decentralized application.

So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

Lol made my day.
But I agree the company metaphor was working great and I would like to use it further if it is some how possible.

You can use it but it shouldn't be in official documents. The Bitshares toolkit, GUI, website, shouldn't call it a company anymore because it's just an application.

Some people don't know the difference between metaphor and literal. Just look at the bible and see how people interpret that any way they desire to make their case.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: julian1 on October 30, 2014, 08:05:24 am
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares' applications are about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a community website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS) and anonymously (TITAN), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, or create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses and less compliance hassle. How will the profound implications and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread to these groups?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism within its community.

No easy answers here for sure - but, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: House on October 30, 2014, 08:26:21 am
a) I like 'BitShare' (a bit to share)

2) The BitShare Currencies/DAC's are a *consequence* of the community not a *purpose*

iii) The metaphors are so ingrained in our phsyche because of the troubled world we live in... lets find some new terms, a new means to communicate ideas, that are not based on 'old world' terminology.

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.
+5%

It is telling, reading the posts, as to where we as individuals are focused. The default is most powerful, but the world is changing, are we not pioneers, the engineers of our own future. It may take sometime and many checks on our vernacular to galvanize the 'newspeak' (thanks George) required to convey our message.
I'm exploding with excitement at what we have here. With leadership like this, I am at peace with my choice.

The world is cyclical... Atoms are round, planets are round, history repeats itself... As Bytemaster (and team) has just illustrated, technological advancement is leading us back to eachother. Will it take this generation or the next ... The choice is ours
                     
[...knock knock...] :o Q: do you open the door or pretend your not home?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 09:00:19 am
So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares is really about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisiticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses. How does the profound qualities  and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread in this context?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism amongst its community.

To me, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.

That is why you as a member of the community should personally explain to different demographics using the best terminology for that demographic.

But it does not mean that the website and official speech should use inaccurate explanations just because it helps market to a niche demographic. The truth is that Bitshares is just a decentralized application for a decentralized autonomous community.

Until you or anyone else claiming we should target financial institutions are prepared to set up a cooperative there is no way to partner with them anyway because we don't legally exist. I suggest that we form a Bitshares Cooperative and use that cooperative to offer financial services legally by forming partnerships with the necessary financial entities.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 30, 2014, 09:15:09 am
a) I like 'BitShare' (a bit to share)

2) The BitShare Currencies/DAC's are a *consequence* of the community not a *purpose*

iii) The metaphors are so ingrained in our phsyche because of the troubled world we live in... lets find some new terms, a new means to communicate ideas, that are not based on 'old world' terminology.

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.
+5%

It is telling, reading the posts, as to where we as individuals are focused. The default is most powerful, but the world is changing, are we not pioneers, the engineers of our own future. It may take sometime and many checks on our vernacular to galvanize the 'newspeak' (thanks George) required to convey our message.
I'm exploding with excitement at what we have here. With leadership like this, I am at peace with my choice.

The world is cyclical... Atoms are round, planets are round, history repeats itself... As Bytemaster (and team) has just illustrated, technological advancement is leading us back to eachother. Will it take this generation or the next ... The choice is ours
                     
[...knock knock...] :o Q: do you open the door or pretend your not home?

When the Internet was invented a lot of brand new terminology had to be put in place. A new language had to be invented to explain precisely what it all was.
Quote
The working paper No. 179, 1994, of the Center for Coordination Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology describes the concept as follows: "The information superhighway directly connects millions of people, each both a consumer of information and a potential provider. (...) Most predictions about commercial opportunities on the information superhighway focus on the provision of information products, such as video on demand, and on new sales outlets for physical products, as with home shopping. (...) The information superhighway brings together millions of individuals who could exchange information with one another. Any conception of a traditional market for making beneficial exchanges, such as an agricultural market or trading pit, or any system where individuals respond to posted prices on a computer screen is woefully inadequate for the extremely large number of often complex trades that will be required."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_superhighway

Some people tried to call it the information super-highway. Some people decided to cling to familiar ways of describing the technology. As a result the technology became very centralized, inefficient, and peer to peer didn't exist in the lexicon for a long time. Words do matter and it's more important that we have our own language first before we dumb our speech down to teach everyone else.

What about cyberspace?
Quote
Cyberspace is "the notional environment in which communication over computer networks occurs."[1] The term was first used in science fiction and cinema in the 1980s, was adopted by computer professionals and became a household term in the 1990s. During this period, the uses of the internet, networking, and digital communication were all growing dramatically and the term "cyberspace" was able to represent the many new ideas and phenomena that were emerging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberspace

Or the world wide web?

Quote
The World Wide Web (abbreviated as WWW or W3,[1] commonly known as the Web) is a system of interlinked hypertext documents that are accessed via the Internet. With a web browser, one can view web pages that may contain text, images, videos, and other multimedia and navigate between them via hyperlinks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

To understand truly what we are doing we need to start using our own language, inventing our own words carefully so they invoke a good frame and inspire the imagination. When you're inventing a completely new industry and technology you have to understand that you have the responsibility to coin the new phrases, invent the new words, and most of the time it's better not to base it on anything else.

So how about we begin the process of carefully creating new words which describe human interaction with the DAC, in a way which doesn't bring in old concepts or old frames. If people have a difficult time learning our buzzwords it's too bad. We had to learn the buzzwords to know how to use the Internet back in the day and it's no different now.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: GaltReport on October 30, 2014, 10:35:47 am
Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.

Yes!
There was a message. Pretty powerful one, indeed!

Message, Vision, Idea!

In which all of us believe(d), more or less; some sooner, some later; some totally, some only in the core principals;

Now all of a sudden comes this - lets build Bla-bla Bla-bla Community - not only totally uninspiring, but already accomplished!
We do have a community. No need to build one with some adjectives in front of it.

And no, I do not believe we have achieved our goal if we force a half-a** constitution on the king,




If we want a republic there should be no king!

If we want better business model(s) for our kids, we should not hide behind false pretenses that this is not a business![/b]

 +5% for all of this.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 30, 2014, 03:48:06 pm
A most excellent discussion. I waited quite awhile last night after I made my last post for others to contribute, but after 30 - 45 minutes gave up & went to bed. I suspect after BM got home, put the kids to bed etc. he reentered the thread, and offered some info why he is changing the course of the ship. Good to know. I really like this thread, but I must depart for other commitments. Here are a couple of posts that capture what my gut / intuition is telling me, but I am open to the sentiments expressed very articulately by luckybit too. I'll revisit this later.

Here is what I don't want to happen is for delegates to be considered directors of a company issuing shares to the public as an unlicensed security. 

A self governing community that uses bts to track each persons share of the work contributed is much more generic and does not imply a legal entity.   

I also want the message and metaphor to make people feel as part of something rather than owning part of something separate from them.

I do understand where you're going with this and why you're thinking this way. Is there any way to push the community aspect for now on your end but let the community at large describe BitShares as a "company on a blockchain"? That metaphor when properly employed works SO beautifully... It's the entire reason I was sold on the BitShares concept. It made total sense. I'm not sure I would be here right now if it was pitched as a decentralized autonomous community. Doesn't have the same oomph.

Yes!
There was a message. Pretty powerful one, indeed!

Message, Vision, Idea!

In which all of us believe(d), more or less; some sooner, some later; some totally, some only in the core principals;

Now all of a sudden comes this - lets build Bla-bla Bla-bla Community - not only totally uninspiring, but already accomplished!
We do have a community. No need to build one with some adjectives in front of it.

And no, I do not believe we have achieved our goal if we force a half-a** constitution on the king,

If we want a republic there should be no king!

If we want better business model(s) for our kids, we should not hide behind false pretenses that this is not a business!

So, is it just me, or did Bitshares just completely jump the shark.

What happened, we got a letter from the SEC and now we cant be a company anymore, we have to all become hippies and be a community?

The SEC rumour, be it for real or not, is something we should watch out for. If BM has reacted with a pre-emptive change to 'community', it is a good move.   +5%

There's a tradeoff though. Avoiding the SEC by toning down the financial analogies/language risks communicating the message of what Bitshares' applications are about to end-users.

If a potential online retailer comes away with the impression that Bitshares is a community website rather than a way for him to isolate exchange rate risk (BitUSD), and process transactions near instantly (DPOS) and anonymously (TITAN), then it's a lost opportunity.

The same applies for more sophisticated finance groups who need to know that they now have new possibilities to either hedge risks, or create market liquidity with reduced frictional losses and less compliance hassle. How will the profound implications and 'killer-app' feature of 'the peg' get spread to these groups?

A 'community' message rather than 'exchange' type message also doesn't help distinguish Bitshares from Bitcoin which already has the network effect advantage and enormous libertarian idealism within its community.

No easy answers here for sure - but, it sounds like Bitshares might be caught between a rock and a hard-place.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 30, 2014, 04:09:31 pm
Guess I was right to feel bad about this post, another 20% drop today.

Congrats on killing Bitshares.

Who will be left in the "community" when bitshares is below 1 cent?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 04:11:33 pm
Guess I was right to feel bad about this post, another 20% drop today.

Congrats on killing Bitshares.

Who will be left in the "community" when bitshares is below 1 cent?

I doubt this post was the cause of the 20% drop...
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: GaltReport on October 30, 2014, 04:22:17 pm
BM made another good post (not that this one was bad or anything...:) ) explaining the reasoning and some good guidelines on use of the "company" metaphor.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10767.msg141723#msg141723
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: carpet ride on October 30, 2014, 04:24:41 pm
To become a sovereign nation: All we need is an island, a blockchain and a few more women


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: TurkeyLeg on October 30, 2014, 04:58:11 pm
Regardless of how good any particular idea is, if you keep making 90 degree turns with little to no warning, people are going to lose confidence. Why should I believe the direction you are promoting for BitShares today when in less than two weeks, there will be a whole new twist to adopt?

And how will there ever be an effective marketing campaign when the "company" and "product" are constantly being described in different ways?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: xeroc on October 30, 2014, 05:01:57 pm
You dont need confidence in BTS .. you want it in bitUSD
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ben Mason on October 30, 2014, 05:27:28 pm
Regardless of how good any particular idea is, if you keep making 90 degree turns with little to no warning, people are going to lose confidence. Why should I believe the direction you are promoting for BitShares today when in less than two weeks, there will be a whole new twist to adopt?

And how will there ever be an effective marketing campaign when the "company" and "product" are constantly being described in different ways?

There is no 'regardless.'  If an idea has merit, it has merit.  The marketing push will not happen until things have stabilized.  Try to think on a slightly longer timeline, though I appreciate that it's very easy to be swept along by this rapidly evolving technology.

Speaking of evolution, we need Bytemaster and friends to build us the equivalent of a shark as quickly as possible.  Something that's going to thrive in these primordial waters, reach apex predator status with a design that's good for 350 million years.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: lovejoy on October 30, 2014, 05:38:21 pm
To become a sovereign nation: All we need is an island, a blockchain and a few more women

Happy to captain one of the vessels in the sailing fleet, when the time comes. ;)
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: wackou on October 30, 2014, 08:46:03 pm
I like the idea very much! This resembles a lot what I describe here: http://digitalgaia.io/philosophy.html

This is much more powerful than the metaphor of a company for me as it is much more based on freedom and voluntary participation, and not written contracts which might find themselves obsolete at some point due to a changing environment and the need to adapt. And I believe BitShares is exactly the type of DAC that can adapt, through natural selection of the delegates over time. There is no single entity in charge (which might become corrupt over time), but rather consensus from the community that a certain group of people should receive funding in order to work on a specific aspect of the DAC.

And if people want bytemaster to continue to "be in charge", we just need to vote him as delegate and keep putting our trust and faith in him, and let him lead development as he has until now. There is no need for a formal contract, as I believe he would do exactly the same without.

Let us try to build something for once based on trust and reputation, and freedom, rather than contracts, obligations, and greed...
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 09:03:45 pm
This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences. 

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.



Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 30, 2014, 09:08:41 pm
This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences. 

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.

Good to hear. While these may be some great ideas, they may not necessarily be the most marketable. Hope the marketing guys know what they're doing.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: bytemaster on October 30, 2014, 09:11:30 pm
This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences. 

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.


Good to hear. While these may be some great ideas, they may not necessarily be the most marketable. Hope the marketing guys know what they're doing.

They do... and this idea of mine has been properly tempered so those who have freaked out about the post can calm down...
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: zerosum on October 30, 2014, 09:19:21 pm
That would include me, I guess.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: donkeypong on October 30, 2014, 09:26:52 pm
This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences. 

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.


Good to hear. While these may be some great ideas, they may not necessarily be the most marketable. Hope the marketing guys know what they're doing.

They do... and this idea of mine has been properly tempered so those who have freaked out about the post can calm down...

It's kind of like the stock market's reaction to the Fed chair's words. The pace of announcements here has been a bit fast and furious of late. If someone takes the time to dig into the content and appreciate the vision, then it all fits. For my part, I bought a little more of that BTSX people were selling. But I think if BitShares has reached the point where it needs to be for this next phase, it might not hurt to let the beast develop on its own for a bit.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Ander on October 30, 2014, 11:39:30 pm
It's kind of like the stock market's reaction to the Fed chair's words.

Yes, its exactly like that!

Bytemaster posts, and the market cap of BTSX moves up or down, just as the fed announcements cause swings in the Dow.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Thom on October 31, 2014, 12:56:34 am
BM made another good post (not that this one was bad or anything...:) ) explaining the reasoning and some good guidelines on use of the "company" metaphor.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10767.msg141723#msg141723

This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences. 

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.

Your OP in this thread really resonated with me in terms of the voluntary, community thrust, but threw me for a loop in terms of marketing. Thanks BM for responding to the feedback here by posting the clarification thread GaltReport posted above. It really went a long way in easing the tension I was feeling. I comprehend what you're trying to do much better after reading that. +5%
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Mysto on October 31, 2014, 12:57:03 am

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

You need to get that on a mug or something lol.
^This
Or at the very least start new threads with that as a header lol.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: jakub on October 31, 2014, 02:50:20 am
BM,
With all this merger (which I support) we are in a confusion period now. Adding new areas of change serves no good.
If you are proposing this "company to community" change just for the sake of cleaning up the bitshares concept - this is really bad timing. And also this is not a very motivating change from the marketing perspective: being part of a company is more inspiring than belonging to a community.

Unless you have legal reasons to do so - then this change makes much more sense as the last thing we want you to have are legal problems. But then this should be clearly stated as we (the stake holders) should know it.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Troglodactyl on October 31, 2014, 03:16:00 am
BM,
With all this merger (which I support) we are in a confusion period now. Adding new areas of change serves no good.
If you are proposing this "company to community" change just for the sake of cleaning up the bitshares concept - this is really bad timing. And also this is not a very motivating change from the marketing perspective: being part of a company is more inspiring than belonging to a community.

Unless you have legal reasons to do so - then this change makes much more sense as the last thing we want you to have are legal problems. But then this should be clearly stated as we (the stake holders) should know it.

It seems pretty clear to me that this "change" isn't significantly changing how anything actually works.  Unofficially, everything can still be explained in whichever way best fits the target audience, but officially, there's very little left for officials to potentially target.  Technically, both descriptions are accurate, because while the system can achieve the goals of a company, it does so without the need for actual enforced contracts, or regulated methods.

We are a leaf on the wind...
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: pseudoscops on October 31, 2014, 03:31:06 am
This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences.

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.

Reading the above it kinda sounds like the answer to my questions about the marketing teams involvement in the Community message, see below, should have been 'no not so much really'.

I have to ask - was this run through Brian and the marketing team before being announced? What is Brian's view on this if so? I think it's really important for the community to know that it was at least discussed with him first?

Its probably actually coming from Marketing, (and/or Legal).

I think BM has learned by now not to just randomly post his thoughts on the forum, after what happened last time.

This overall goal was discussed with the team and Adam from Follow My Vote and we are coordinating with Brian to revamp the marketing for the BitShares launch.    Adam is really a huge asset and is helping us a lot.

Either that or BM did discuss it at length with the team and is now graciously trying to take the fall for what everyone on the team now realises was perhaps too radical of a message for the market to take. Honestly I like the vision but this ideology/community focused marketing that's taken up so much airspace recently is not going to work well for us IMHO - it really needs to take a back seat if it somehow can. I'm not sure you can sell the DAC this way. The ecosystem, the technological USPs, focused products/apps built on the SuperDac and most importantly the utility need to be in the spotlight. I'm all for a list of one word tenets, as originally suggested by Kisa, that embody the things that BitShares stands for. One of those words could and should be Community:

e.g. Freedom, Privacy, Fairness, Creativity, Meritocracy, Security, Community

But no more than this. I do realise that SEC concerns might have led to an itchy trigger finger on this announcement and that they ultimately might necessitate us having to re-imagine everything as a 'Digital Autonomous Community' or something similar rather than calling it a 'Digital Autonomous Company'. I really hope not, but maybe we do have to act here. If that is the case then the message from Dan needed to be more along the lines off 'Hey look guys we're gonna get screwed by the SEC if we don't rethink the language we use surrounding BitShares. Here are some of the things that I've been thinking over, what about about if we used a Community metaphor etc etc etc  - now please lets us all discuss this.' Maybe there are other legal issues at play here that I don't understand that make that difficult to do.

Instead the way it was announced by Dan and the way it came across seemed to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of how one should approach this sort of delicate matter. It sounded like a dictat and I think it spooked a lot of people today.  Dan you are so talented in so many other ways and have led this thing so far, I'd hate to think that your apparent total lack of good PR and marketing instinct could lead to you torpedoing all the hard work from you and everyone else. Please seek more advice on how to approach these kind of things before you post them, even if there are legal issues afoot.

You mentioned you didn't think that this thread had much to do with today's drop in share price. I believe that you believed this when you wrote it, but I knew you were wrong when I read it.

Guess I was right to feel bad about this post, another 20% drop today.

Congrats on killing Bitshares.

Who will be left in the "community" when bitshares is below 1 cent?

I doubt this post was the cause of the 20% drop...

This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off. By the way I'm not saying that fuzzy is wrong, but Rune seems genuine to me when I ask my gut what it thinks. I get the impression he's young, very intelligent, very excitable and perhaps a little naive in thinking that one day BitShares will take over the world. I think he's is probably going to turn out to be a huge asset to this community in the long run. I hope I'm proved right.

But back to these posts and more importantly how they've affected my actions today. My actions on an individual level are not that important and probably did little to shift the share price, but they are perhaps an important bell weather as to how others might have felt and acted today. I put more weight on this thread being responsible for the larger portion of the share price drop today. I actually shifted about 25% of my holdings back in to Bitcoin as a result of BMs OP in this thread and as a result of the mixed and muddled marketing I've been witnessing here lately. I might shift at least part of this into the Music DAC from Bitcoin. I was all in before today either in BitUSD or BTSX. I hope things don't go even more pear shaped, I don't think they will in the long run. But I wanted to mention how I acted today so that people can understand how someone passionate about this project, I've been following and investing for almost a year, has reacted as a result of what I think is carelessness handling of information presented here on the forums. I don't feel like I've been a weak hand, I've just lost a tiny little bit of faith in the direction of things lately and I've had to act in order to reflect that in my holdings.

Much more consideration needs to be taken before posting such radical changes to messaging. Perhaps we need some sort of official press release channel, maybe then everything suggested on the forum can immediately be assumed to be up for discussion and not set in stone until it appears as an official press release from the marketing team separately from the forum. Somewhere on the main website is the obvious place. I do believe in BitShares and I'm hoping to become a 100% believer again. I also hope circumstance will allow me to contribute something more practical to the ecosystem. As well as having some marketing skills I can code too, mainly Rails, front end web and some hybrid mobile stuff. Get your marketing and PR act together guys. If you don't you are going to keep hemorrhaging share price. Where is Brian in all this, I'm not sure I've even seen a post from Adam yet. Sorry about the wall of text, but I just had to get all this off my chest.

Dan, hope there's no hard feeling here. It's not personal I think 99% of everything else you do is great!
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: donkeypong on October 31, 2014, 04:25:09 am

This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off.


Someone wants you to think so. But if a trader is playing with tens of millions of dollars, do you think he or she really gives a darn about some bickering between a few members on a user forum? They may not even read it. If they do, this kind of thing simply gives them cover for the perception that there is dumping or buying based on news. In reality, someone simply owned enough to engage in one last dump/pump before the distortion of the upcoming snapshot. And it was a good bet that there wouldn't be too much buying right now as folks cautiously await the next stage--great time to dump and buy it back cheap. I'll bet $20 million that whoever dumped today doesn't care what Rune or Fuzzy thinks and doesn't care what I think either! This is simply crypto-static for long term investors.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: Riverhead on October 31, 2014, 04:34:21 am
Maybe Peter Lynch is dumping 8)

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: zerosum on October 31, 2014, 04:37:25 am
This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off.

...donkeypong...


You found the quote of the day donkeypong, and made my day!  +5%

Though I will say, this thread did not help much, to the cause of the other direction.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: donkeypong on October 31, 2014, 04:48:30 am
This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off.

...donkeypong...


You found the quote of the day donkeypong, and made my day!  +5%

Though I will say, this thread did not help much, to the cause of the other direction.

Can we call you Tony2k now?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 31, 2014, 10:10:11 am
This thread has been very enlightening and points out how different messages reach different audiences.

I never intended this thread to completely change everything...

BTS will be marketed according to how the marketers feel it will be best and I am deferring to their judgement.

Good discussion everyone.

Reading the above it kinda sounds like the answer to my questions about the marketing teams involvement in the Community message, see below, should have been 'no not so much really'.

I have to ask - was this run through Brian and the marketing team before being announced? What is Brian's view on this if so? I think it's really important for the community to know that it was at least discussed with him first?

Its probably actually coming from Marketing, (and/or Legal).

I think BM has learned by now not to just randomly post his thoughts on the forum, after what happened last time.

This overall goal was discussed with the team and Adam from Follow My Vote and we are coordinating with Brian to revamp the marketing for the BitShares launch.    Adam is really a huge asset and is helping us a lot.

Either that or BM did discuss it at length with the team and is now graciously trying to take the fall for what everyone on the team now realises was perhaps too radical of a message for the market to take. Honestly I like the vision but this ideology/community focused marketing that's taken up so much airspace recently is not going to work well for us IMHO - it really needs to take a back seat if it somehow can. I'm not sure you can sell the DAC this way. The ecosystem, the technological USPs, focused products/apps built on the SuperDac and most importantly the utility need to be in the spotlight. I'm all for a list of one word tenets, as originally suggested by Kisa, that embody the things that BitShares stands for. One of those words could and should be Community:

e.g. Freedom, Privacy, Fairness, Creativity, Meritocracy, Security, Community

But no more than this. I do realise that SEC concerns might have led to an itchy trigger finger on this announcement and that they ultimately might necessitate us having to re-imagine everything as a 'Digital Autonomous Community' or something similar rather than calling it a 'Digital Autonomous Company'. I really hope not, but maybe we do have to act here. If that is the case then the message from Dan needed to be more along the lines off 'Hey look guys we're gonna get screwed by the SEC if we don't rethink the language we use surrounding BitShares. Here are some of the things that I've been thinking over, what about about if we used a Community metaphor etc etc etc  - now please lets us all discuss this.' Maybe there are other legal issues at play here that I don't understand that make that difficult to do.

Instead the way it was announced by Dan and the way it came across seemed to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of how one should approach this sort of delicate matter. It sounded like a dictat and I think it spooked a lot of people today.  Dan you are so talented in so many other ways and have led this thing so far, I'd hate to think that your apparent total lack of good PR and marketing instinct could lead to you torpedoing all the hard work from you and everyone else. Please seek more advice on how to approach these kind of things before you post them, even if there are legal issues afoot.

You mentioned you didn't think that this thread had much to do with today's drop in share price. I believe that you believed this when you wrote it, but I knew you were wrong when I read it.

Guess I was right to feel bad about this post, another 20% drop today.

Congrats on killing Bitshares.

Who will be left in the "community" when bitshares is below 1 cent?

I doubt this post was the cause of the 20% drop...

This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off. By the way I'm not saying that fuzzy is wrong, but Rune seems genuine to me when I ask my gut what it thinks. I get the impression he's young, very intelligent, very excitable and perhaps a little naive in thinking that one day BitShares will take over the world. I think he's is probably going to turn out to be a huge asset to this community in the long run. I hope I'm proved right.

But back to these posts and more importantly how they've affected my actions today. My actions on an individual level are not that important and probably did little to shift the share price, but they are perhaps an important bell weather as to how others might have felt and acted today. I put more weight on this thread being responsible for the larger portion of the share price drop today. I actually shifted about 25% of my holdings back in to Bitcoin as a result of BMs OP in this thread and as a result of the mixed and muddled marketing I've been witnessing here lately. I might shift at least part of this into the Music DAC from Bitcoin. I was all in before today either in BitUSD or BTSX. I hope things don't go even more pear shaped, I don't think they will in the long run. But I wanted to mention how I acted today so that people can understand how someone passionate about this project, I've been following and investing for almost a year, has reacted as a result of what I think is carelessness handling of information presented here on the forums. I don't feel like I've been a weak hand, I've just lost a tiny little bit of faith in the direction of things lately and I've had to act in order to reflect that in my holdings.

Much more consideration needs to be taken before posting such radical changes to messaging. Perhaps we need some sort of official press release channel, maybe then everything suggested on the forum can immediately be assumed to be up for discussion and not set in stone until it appears as an official press release from the marketing team separately from the forum. Somewhere on the main website is the obvious place. I do believe in BitShares and I'm hoping to become a 100% believer again. I also hope circumstance will allow me to contribute something more practical to the ecosystem. As well as having some marketing skills I can code too, mainly Rails, front end web and some hybrid mobile stuff. Get your marketing and PR act together guys. If you don't you are going to keep hemorrhaging share price. Where is Brian in all this, I'm not sure I've even seen a post from Adam yet. Sorry about the wall of text, but I just had to get all this off my chest.

Dan, hope there's no hard feeling here. It's not personal I think 99% of everything else you do is great!

You've posted a total of 23 times, and you've taken your money out of BTS to put it into Bitcoin so that you can lose money as the Bitcoin price goes down?

For some reason I don't believe you. Why didn't you just buy BitUSD like I did?
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: cube on October 31, 2014, 10:42:45 am

...
I do realise that SEC concerns might have led to an itchy trigger finger on this announcement and that they ultimately might necessitate us having to re-imagine everything as a 'Digital Autonomous Community' or something similar rather than calling it a 'Digital Autonomous Company'. I really hope not, but maybe we do have to act here. If that is the case then the message from Dan needed to be more along the lines off 'Hey look guys we're gonna get screwed by the SEC if we don't rethink the language we use surrounding BitShares.
...

This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off. By the way I'm not saying that fuzzy is wrong, but Rune seems genuine to me when I ask my gut what it thinks. I get the impression he's young, very intelligent, very excitable and perhaps a little naive in thinking that one day BitShares will take over the world. I think he's is probably going to turn out to be a huge asset to this community in the long run. I hope I'm proved right.


Hmm.. isn't that as good as broadcasting to the SEC that Dan is changing the 'language' of Bitshares on purpose and with a clear intention to avoid the SEC?  This does not sound like a good idea to me.

What fuzzy said about Rune has an impact on btsx price?  Common.. you are stretching it.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: pseudoscops on October 31, 2014, 11:29:21 am

You've posted a total of 23 times, and you've taken your money out of BTS to put it into Bitcoin so that you can lose money as the Bitcoin price goes down?

For some reason I don't believe you. Why didn't you just buy BitUSD like I did?

If you read my post, you'll see that I am holding BitAssets as well - actually to the tune of about 25% of my holdings. My reasoning for switching to Bitcoin is that I may invest elsewhere and diversify. I guess I was signalling that I'd like to see something that makes me want to put funds back here and avoid that need to diversify. Obviously from my post a lot of my concern surrounds the way the marketing is being handled. I just think that some here think that because they understand how it all works it automatically means that this project will ultiately be a asuccess. Most people won;t spend the time you've spent i here in order to become a true beleiver and that is why the marketing angle is so important in my view.

I'm not particularity confident in the long term price of Bitcoin, but I don't think holding some short term while I decide what to do with the funds is necessarily a bad idea.

The fact that I've only ever posted 23 times does not mean I am newcomer here, I've spent literally weeks reading things here on this forum over the last year.


Hmm.. isn't that as good as broadcasting to the SEC that Dan is changing the 'language' of Bitshares on purpose and with a clear intention to avoid the SEC?  This does not sound like a good idea to me.

What fuzzy said about Rune has an impact on btsx price?  Common.. you are stretching it.

Maybe I'm wrong about Rune's post. I think clear explanation as to why we need to change the language would help both us and the SEC understand how perhaps we do not fall within the bounds of something that would traditionally be seen as a hierarchical company with a centralised structure and CEO. This is not what we are about and that is why we have so far been called a 'Digital Autonomous Company' and not just a  'Company'. Surely the arguments to the SEC can still be made as to why we should not be treated in the same way without completely changing language and the direction of all marketing efforts away from the 'Company' metaphor. If I'm wrong here though and people really think it's worth steering clear of the 'Company' moniker then personally I prefer 'Digital Autonomous Cooperative.' It sounds more like something that actually produces something rather than something that just pushes an ideology.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 31, 2014, 11:47:47 am

...
I do realise that SEC concerns might have led to an itchy trigger finger on this announcement and that they ultimately might necessitate us having to re-imagine everything as a 'Digital Autonomous Community' or something similar rather than calling it a 'Digital Autonomous Company'. I really hope not, but maybe we do have to act here. If that is the case then the message from Dan needed to be more along the lines off 'Hey look guys we're gonna get screwed by the SEC if we don't rethink the language we use surrounding BitShares.
...

This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off. By the way I'm not saying that fuzzy is wrong, but Rune seems genuine to me when I ask my gut what it thinks. I get the impression he's young, very intelligent, very excitable and perhaps a little naive in thinking that one day BitShares will take over the world. I think he's is probably going to turn out to be a huge asset to this community in the long run. I hope I'm proved right.


Hmm.. isn't that as good as broadcasting to the SEC that Dan is changing the 'language' of Bitshares on purpose and with a clear intention to avoid the SEC?  This does not sound like a good idea to me.

What fuzzy said about Rune has an impact on btsx price?  Common.. you are stretching it.

Even if the SEC would arrest Dan BTS would survive because of the change of language. Let's face facts, there can be no investors if the SEC says there can't. There can be no crowd funding if the SEC says there can't. This is no different from Bitcoin being "banned in China" and it should be explained to the Chinese via translation that changes are necessary to save the community from regulatory persecution as it is something people in the Chinese community can relate to.

If there are no investors then there can be no corporation if the SEC says no. It also means there can be no mergers because that would trigger the FTC. There an be no legal contracts of any kind in our community.

No matter what happens to Bytemaster the SEC and other government agencies have power over the language and you cannot use their language. If you don't like the language we use then take it up with US regulatory agencies who say that in order to use securities you must ask permission and that unlicensed securities are illegal. The SEC might not be sophisticated enough to care that these are not securities and are just software. If you go out of your way to try to convince them it is a security you'll justify them treating it like a security.

Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: pseudoscops on October 31, 2014, 11:58:33 am

This thread and the accusations fuzzy has leveled at Rune, i think, are jointly responsible for today's sell off.


Someone wants you to think so. But if a trader is playing with tens of millions of dollars, do you think he or she really gives a darn about some bickering between a few members on a user forum? They may not even read it. If they do, this kind of thing simply gives them cover for the perception that there is dumping or buying based on news. In reality, someone simply owned enough to engage in one last dump/pump before the distortion of the upcoming snapshot. And it was a good bet that there wouldn't be too much buying right now as folks cautiously await the next stage--great time to dump and buy it back cheap. I'll bet $20 million that whoever dumped today doesn't care what Rune or Fuzzy thinks and doesn't care what I think either! This is simply crypto-static for long term investors.

It is possible that you're right here. I may have all of this completely wrong and none of it matters. It is entirely possible that my more general concerns about a lack of understanding of how to manage PR and marketing are leading me to overblown the importance of individual posts. Perhaps I'm  projecting my larger concerns on to things that I shouldn't be. My Spidey senses indicate to me that I'm not, but maybe they are wrong.

Despite having six timed my original stake in crypto in the last year or so, I'm actually a pretty naive investor with little experience. Most of my gains have probably been due to dumb luck in fact. Perhaps I've been losing my cool a little, where others more experienced just ride it out. Please feel free to tune out if you think I'm just adding unhelpful noise here.
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: ozvic on October 31, 2014, 11:59:32 am
The fact that I've only ever posted 23 times does not mean I am newcomer here, I've spent literally weeks reading things here on this forum over the last year.

 +5%

Many of us avid readers and supporters don't feel the need to quote a wall of text to add a  +5% whether it be to show true agreement or to get their post count up. Many may be like me, only speak out when they have something truly useful to say. Unfortunately for me that's not too often... so I'll leave it at that.


Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: luckybit on October 31, 2014, 12:05:28 pm

If you read my post, you'll see that I am holding BitAssets as well - actually to the tune of about 25% of my holdings. My reasoning for switching to Bitcoin is that I may invest elsewhere and diversify. I guess I was signalling that I'd like to see something that makes me want to put funds back here and avoid that need to diversify. Obviously from my post a lot of my concern surrounds the way the marketing is being handled. I just think that some here think that because they understand how it all works it automatically means that this project will ultiately be a asuccess. Most people won;t spend the time you've spent i here in order to become a true beleiver and that is why the marketing angle is so important in my view.

Getting prosecuted by regulators is not good marketing in the long term. Also if you call it a corporation then people less technically sophisticated might take it literally and sue Bitshares in court. Calling Bitshares a corporation is worse than to call it a country because countries have sovereignty while corporations don't. So why is it if we call Bitshares a Decentralized Autonomous Country people think it's science fiction but if we call it a Decentralized Autonomous Company people who aren't libertarians think it's science fiction or evil, yet if we call it a Decentralized Aunomous Community the only people who are confused by that are libertarians who were sold the old marketing.

Marketing has to be smart enough to adapt to different demographics. You own Bitshares already so you're already sold. The biggest market are the people who aren't crypto-anarchist, aren't libertarian, and who want a sense of community. Community is easier to market than company because not everyone cares about corporations but almost everyone wants to be a part of a community. I always saw Bitshares as a community not a company. Virtual companies might profit like companies do but they don't physically exist any more than a second life store is a company.

I'm not particularity confident in the long term price of Bitcoin, but I don't think holding some short term while I decide what to do with the funds is necessarily a bad idea.

The fact that I've only ever posted 23 times does not mean I am newcomer here, I've spent literally weeks reading things here on this forum over the last year.

The most important thing to learn about how things work is that it's all about community. The altcoins which survive and thrive are the ones which develop a community. The altcoins which focus only on profit are pump and dumps.

A lot of people got into Bitshares thinking it would be the ultimate pump and dump. Language like how it is a corporation and other financial terms are great to attract speculators. Those speculators came into the community, they pumped, and then they dumped. Now that they see Bitshares actually has a serious vision, and that Bytemaster actually wants to lead a community rather than be a mere developer/CEO, they want out so they can focus on the quick buck because it's a lot more work to build a community than to build a profitable company.

Maybe I'm wrong about Rune's post. I think clear explanation as to why we need to change the language would help both us and the SEC understand how perhaps we do not fall within the bounds of something that would traditionally be seen as a hierarchical company with a centralised structure and CEO. This is not what we are about and that is why we have so far been called a 'Digital Autonomous Company' and not just a  'Company'. Surely the arguments to the SEC can still be made as to why we should not be treated in the same way without completely changing language and the direction of all marketing efforts away from the 'Company' metaphor. If I'm wrong here though and people really think it's worth steering clear of the 'Company' moniker then personally I prefer 'Digital Autonomous Cooperative.' It sounds more like something that actually produces something rather than something that just pushes an ideology.

The SEC has no business governing the Internet period. They only have an issue when you solicit for investors. This is why there should be no investors allowed in our community. We simply don't have any need for investors when we have sponsors who will freely give money when money is needed without any expectation of ROI. If the SEC wants to fine us all for giving gifts and donations then they can make a case of that. It's a lot more difficult of a case to make than if you put up a big sign which says; "Crowdfunding! Investors welcome!".

All the SEC would have to do is send one of it's informers to pretend to be an investor. Then their researchers can build many cases over time to take the whole community down through petty fines and court battles. It's just not worth it to have to risk that or put the community at risk just to use words they don't like or processes they don't want used.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112826/how-to-protect-your-bitcoin-business-from-regulators
Title: Re: BitShares to become Decentralized Autonomous Community
Post by: jae208 on November 01, 2014, 04:41:06 am
 "Community is easier to market than company because not everyone cares about corporations but almost everyone wants to be a part of a community. I always saw Bitshares as a community not a company. "


Once again it is the part of our brain regulating emotion that pushes us to act. "Community" appeals to the emotional center of our brain. Appealing to people's emotions is very powerful. I always wondered why people believe in religious fairy tales when religious text are always full of such contradictory nonsense.  It is probably because religion and church appeals to our sense of community and belonging. People don't go to church to listen to the pastor or read a book that deep down they know doesn't make sense. Rather, they attend church for that sense of community. They attend so they can spend time with family and friends. They do so for social reasons.

The success of Bitshares might depend on how we appeal to people's emotions. How do we encourage and create a sense of community beyond what we currently have?

Marketing Bitshares as a business and focusing on the profit motive works as long as those attracted by such motives make money. They won't stick around to help Bitshares grow. They were simply motivated by personal gain. As that Ted video Bytemaster linked to on another thread points out, "They don't care what you do or how you do it, they care about WHY." The "what" and "how" appeal to our most recently evolved rational side, but for most of us it doesn't push us toward action.

What: Bitshares is like a company. How: Bitshares has "shareholders" "employees" and makes a profit.
Why: Bitshares seeks to bring freedom and justice for humanity through distributed software.

Honestly, I think that people really aren't rational and we aren't always seeking personal gain. Humans have too many biases to be rational and if we really were rational there would be no such thing as religious faith or non profit organizations.

I think that what we call capitalism isn't the only way to organize economic life and self interest isn't the only motivator either. Think of the people that contribute to the linux operative system. They aren't getting paid for their work. Some of them may, like those working for Canonical.(They are behind Ubuntu) Think about how Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia housing all of human knowledge. By the way I donate to them on a yearly basis because I believe that we should all have access to human knowledge.

Given certain circumstances capitalism may be the best way to organize scarce resources. After extensive reading I think the collaborative commons will be the best way to organize ourselves going forward because we are moving away from a world of scarcity.


Many have heard or are aware of the Tragedy of the Commons.
However, not many have heard of the Comedy of the Commons. I highly recommend you read the original paper. 

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2827&context=fss_papers

Quick summarization of the differences between the Tragedy of the Commons and the Comedy of the Commons.

In the tragedy of the commons, each person tries to maximize their own benefit, and the end result is that everyone loses because of overutilization of limited resources. In the comedy of the commons, each person, while getting something for themselves, also (directly or indirectly) contributes back to the common good at the same time.

BitTorrent makes use of the comedy of the commons, since the more people who participate, the better the service gets.