If you want to kill BlackCoin, then merge with a stupid meme based coin like Doge. It will never be taken seriously as a form of currency it will forever be a gimmick.
I thought I was the only one who thought it was a horrendous idea. Glad to see I'm not alone.
Would be too complex of a change to do and rollout to everyone anyways.. doubt this *can* happen.
The beautiful thing is that Blackdoge wouldn't actually require a change to BC or to DOGE. It would be a completely new PoS coin but the initial distribution of coins would be based on each users holdings in DOGE and BC at widely-telegraphed point in the future. Each user could claim their share of the premine for free using the private keys they already hold. Users from DOGE and BC that do nothing automatically get piggybacked to Blackdoge. If Blackdoge fails, no one loses. If Blackdoge succeeds, both communities win because you've just made your coin more useful.
This would be the first cryptocurrency blockchain merger in the world's history and would make the news all over the world! In fact, it would probably go down in the history books. Why would having a larger user base be a bad thing?
Thinks about your potential slogan. Blackdoge: meaner, faster, pure proof of stake. The future of cryptocurrency.
I am interested, but also curious about one thing: just recently I was doing some reading and it made me wonder about how centralizing this is. Can you give me a run-down?
Could there form a "Multipool" cartel?
I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.
It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.
I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.
It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.
+5% I think a mining pool getting paid via POS BlackCoin was a good idea, but I can't see any value in joining them.
There may be some value though in creating a template/service to help non crypto based groups create something similar & list it, in exchange for shares in that new crypto-equity. I've tried to outline my basic thoughts here... https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4249.0
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that Blackcoin is just a clone of peercoin/novacoin with a short time before all POW coins were fully mined. It doesn't seem that innovative to me, it seems like just another clone. I would think we are better to work on our own vision (which to me is much more compelling) than spend time forging alliances with junk/clone coins. I definitely don't think it should be a priority of bytemaster. It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.
Thanks for the thoughts, luckybit. I heartily agree. Objecting to a merger on the grounds that "bitshares is ours, we shouldn't give it away" seems misguided at best and fatal at worst.
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Welcome to the club Decentralized Application.It's beginning, someone beat us to it.
Satoshi already invented the “uncrackable private key app.” All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world. Bitshares is a marketing company (community) that simply markets Satoshi’s ideas to the world. When you are voting against marketing ideas, you are voting against yourself, and your own wallet, and your own community’s success. You are effectively destroying your own community from within. You are effectively destroying your own community from within. Know yourself, know your community, know what your community is supposed to accomplish. Only that is the equivalent of taking the red pill, otherwise you will never decipher the matrix.
Or just take the blue pill and continue to give away your million dollar ideas (fact proven by Blackcoin) to the “crypto top 40” for free. The Blackcoin community among others thanks you.
Above all else:
DO NOT GIVE AWAY DONATED BITSHARES TO ANYONE.
Satoshi already invented the “uncrackable private key app.” All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world. Bitshares is a marketing company (community) that simply markets Satoshi’s ideas to the world. When you are voting against marketing ideas, you are voting against yourself, and your own wallet, and your own community’s success. You are effectively destroying your own community from within.
DO NOT GIVE AWAY DONATED BITSHARES TO ANYONE.
'All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world.' Yeah, that's all he's doing...
We can create lots of new DAC's or alliances, where we & partners are air-dropped shares in a new joint venture even funded with AGS! So there is very little reason to airdrop AGS & PTS directly. (Especially given that the whole premise is that AGS holders are proven savvy donors and PTS holders are proven savvy supporters.)
50% airdrops to unfocused communities have so far resulted in 99% shareholder losses from their highs. (Maza/Spain/Silicon/Aurora)
IMO once DAC's start being released the value of the focused proven supporter Bitshares community will really come to the fore. (Great vision from Stan & Dan on that one.)
Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...
Good thoughts there, fuz.
This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop.
This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others.
Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders.
This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop.
This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others.
Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders.
+5%
I'm just against airdropping donated AGS directly because because AGS would no longer be 'proven donors'
But I think any new DAC that chooses to honour (airdrop) AGS/PTS & 'Whoever else' is good. Nothing wrong with a DAC that honours 50% BC holders and 50% Bitshares for example.
(The only caveat I can think of is that in the beginning while Bitshares is building a brand we should be a little selective where possible. Maybe get BTS X on the market. For example if I got shares in some really terrible partnerships, I'd probably sell and if everyone did the same it may reflect badly on the premise of AGS & PTS being supportive holders? )
This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop.
This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others.
Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders.
+5%
I'm just against airdropping donated AGS directly because because AGS would no longer be 'proven donors'
But I think any new DAC that chooses to honour (airdrop) AGS/PTS & 'Whoever else' is good. Nothing wrong with a DAC that honours 50% BC holders and 50% Bitshares for example.
(The only caveat I can think of is that in the beginning while Bitshares is building a brand we should be a little selective where possible. Maybe get BTS X on the market. For example if I got shares in some really terrible partnerships, I'd probably sell and if everyone did the same it may reflect badly on the premise of AGS & PTS being supportive holders? )
Well we could let these altcoins modify the template as they see fit, and they could use the Mumble server to reach out to ByteMaster two times a week to ask for advice on issues they encounter...this is another way to give back to them and help them along while also fostering the first-mover advantage for the PTS community.
Question. What is keeping us from "forking" ourselves and going down two separate paths at the same time? We might not even need a vote for something like this because the holders get a stake in BOTH paths...+5% +5% +5%
We have that power as a community do we not? This will create competition in the space and each side will compete to see which is best, only this way we get to ACTUALLY SEE which one will work best.
This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones popping up and competing that do not honor the original investors...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop. Then let them compete along side the original community to bring value to the original stakeholders.
This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others. It would also crowdsource much of the alpha and beta-testing as Bytemaster could follow the trends and change the original chain to fix issues other chains find first. It ALSO has the side effect of increasing the attack surface for this tech on the whole.
Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders. Or better yet, give altcoins a template to become part of the competition without our say (its going to happen whether we like it or not, anyway).
Our community needs others to compete directly with it or else we will simply think we can sit back and let Invictus do all the leg work. One of the KEY points to their business model DEPENDS on strong community, so let other communities fight to contribute to the value of this tech. I can't think of a way that this would cause problems...but I am interested in hearing opinions. But as an Investor I would love to have my stake in all these projects given to me in addition to the original because it highly increases the chances of success for any one of them. Of course, there is nothing saying any of these coins will use the template to honor original stakeholders, but this has been a beautiful experiment from the beginning...we all knew the risks and the risks don't go away by just ignoring future threats.
This is a quick write-up as I am pretty busy today, so forgive me if some of this is not quite crystal clear, but let us think together, and think outside the box!
Can we set up a time to all discuss this in a hangout/mumble type format? We could tape this and then send it out to Blackcoin's community (and any others) with an invitation to stop by for another scheduled meetup.
I don't yet have time to completely read over your posts (I skimmed over them) because I am still working on a pretty big school project, but couldn't we offer an invitation to all POS-based coins? I know for certain the peercoin community is working hard to try to make peershares, which shows they already want a system similar to this. I am also pretty sure that if we opened this up to other POS-based coins after the initial Blackcoin run that we would gain even more competition--which is precisely what we want.
Can we set up a time to all discuss this in a hangout/mumble type format? We could tape this and then send it out to Blackcoin's community (and any others) with an invitation to stop by for another scheduled meetup.
I don't yet have time to completely read over your posts (I skimmed over them) because I am still working on a pretty big school project, but couldn't we offer an invitation to all POS-based coins? I know for certain the peercoin community is working hard to try to make peershares, which shows they already want a system similar to this. I am also pretty sure that if we opened this up to other POS-based coins after the initial Blackcoin run that we would gain even more competition--which is precisely what we want.
I brought the community manager from the Blackcoin community to the Bitshares community. If you can get him to meet and discuss the details would be great. Also the developers behind Blackcoin should be part of the discussion as well. I think the volume and marketing success of Blackcoin are good metrics to use to choose it, the winners and losers pick themselves by being successful or not at achieving high market cap and volume for a long enough period of time (just like how exchanges select certain coins) or let them vote on it in the future and pay for a chain.
I think the focus should be on one community at a time. At this point I think we would just need Dan and representatives from the Blackcoin community to agree to go down this road.
If an agreement is reached then they can both make an announcement thread along with a "Blackshares" section of the forum in the crypto-merger or DAC merger category. From there the community manager of Blackcoin and Stan from Bitshares could prepare announcements to be spread viral with a url in each announcement to each forum.
Peercoin/Peershares chain could be great, but their problem right now is that Peercoin is hybrid PoS rather than pure PoS. It does seem their community wants it though so the demand is probably there to do it.
Why would we spend time on this before bitshares XT is even released? It makes no sense to me. I think there may be some risk in going around to a bunch of altcoin clone communities giving them the idea to clone our code too before we've even done our release.
Sorry for the type-o on that last thread, the correct Riddle is:
What will you do if someone drops free "Bitshare" clones on you (not Bitcoin clones, we all know what to do if that happens).
Seriously, think about this question deeply, and gain some insight into yourself and your market. Help me help you.
Sorry for the type-o on that last thread, the correct Riddle is:
What will you do if someone drops free "Bitshare" clones on you (not Bitcoin clones, we all know what to do if that happens).
Seriously, think about this question deeply, and gain some insight into yourself and your market. Help me help you.
Why would you need to donate Bitshares when you can just create unique altchains which are split 50/50? I'm not willing to donate any Bitshares I don't see see why anyone else should.
The Blackshares chain could have different assets to the Bitshares XT chain for example giving us the incentive to use both. These chains could also test new features. It's not like we only will have one Bitshares chain.
DA... never stop
DA... never stop
+5%
DA... never stop
+5%
+5% There is so much high-octane thinking in there, some of it simply has to be right! :)
There is another..,.
And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.
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Lets get you all caught up on the facts:
I'm not sure who started talking about donating AGS/PTS to airdrop, but I have not mentioned it in any of my 33 posts. What we are proposing in the shortest term is donating (PERSONALLY NOT COMMUNALLY) Bitshares to airdrop on several communities (blockchians) because the product that we are next worried about getting forked is Bitshares, and since it is launching soon without any fork protection against immediate free re-distribution, then we should purchase a little forking insurance.
My sincerest apologies for starting a thread that assumed that our Bitshares community would support the general idea behind providing a Bitshares Faucet. We obviously can't conceive the potential financial benefit of gaining the trust of the market through a public display of generosity.
I apologize to entrepreneurs who are trying to decide weather or not to honor PTS/AGS shareholders with your intellectual property. My chief regret is not that I was unable ...
Therefore we are creating the:
Bitshares Forced Faucet (Airdrop) donation fund thread
x = 8.3% is the worst percentage crash that Bitshares can lose while giving away 5% of your Bitshares to an airdrop like Auroracoin...
It is basically free money at this point. If I vote against the airdrop because I know that the price is going to go down relative to the USD, then did I vote against receiving free money?
By voting against the airdrop, you are voting to restrict adoption of Bitshares plus you are saying “no” to a free one time 8.3% trading gain.
The Bitshares community is voting against allowing people to donate to a fund that will cause the value of their investment to gain 8.3% (BitUSD) upon launch (guaranteed by Auroracoin math) (based upon the number that everybody loves to tout (the 83% Auroracoin decline)).
If you do not agree that this BitUSD bet would pay off, then you support the theory that the airdrop worked, and that the Bitshares market cap would actually grow because of the airdrop.
How would you feel if you came into work one day and everybody told you:
“Hey, Empirical, we all voted “NO” on an 8.3% one-time pay bonus.
What's the matter, scared you might make 8%?
Sorry for the type-o on that last thread, the correct Riddle is:
What will you do if someone drops free "Bitshare" clones on you (not Bitcoin clones, we all know what to do if that happens).
Seriously, think about this question deeply, and gain some insight into yourself and your market. Help me help you.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c800a4e76547f1870685b9bbd12406acb3c0f6d724bdddd39a19e0261da295a7.jpg)
And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.
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in why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them? I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities. I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c800a4e76547f1870685b9bbd12406acb3c0f6d724bdddd39a19e0261da295a7.jpg)
And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.
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@Dan, I think you need to understand that this entire thread is based off of the knowledge that DPOS and its future iterations are going to be a GIFT to the entirety of POS coins. If it works like it seems like it could, we are looking at a frigging game-changer. I do not have all the answers, and just because I pose my own often-misled theories they are only there for people to think over. Hell, 1 out of approximately every 1000 actually get used!
If anything, you should consider this thread a testament to how absolutely powerful we think this innovation will be...that we actually think POS altcoins will jump at the chance to compete for its implementation on altchains should tell you that your hard work and perpetual problem solving means something. Do I know how it will ultimately manifest? Hell no, but I do know that there are as many distros of linux as you can shake a stick at...its just the nature of the beast. And I know that the "threats" to investors are pretty difficult to predict. Even well thought out solutions seem like shots in the dark to a certain extent. I for one like contemplating it, though I'm sure you want to bang your head against the wall at times :)
Oh, and btw, I have never once redacted the volunteerd 10% of my stake (though I am sure I am a little guy compared to some who will likely choose to donate nothing to the cause).
I honestly do not mind donating to the other option (though I am near certain I am in a very small minority)--and it is understandable why this fact is so frustrating (because it is obvious it would only increase the value of bitShares over time). These are both good ways to do it, but I also have no clue how we can protect from other coins' devs and communities simply taking the source code once it has been tested--all bugs fixed--and cloning it with slight alterations (even improvements). Not completely convinced that even strategic airdrops to keyhotee/blackcoin/bitcoin/mastercoin/ether will protect us from that.I explained how.
Bytemaster is a genius...this is a certainty. But this does not mean he is a god and that another dev team might not find a way to improve upon the bitShares code and release it wholly as their own (to the detriment of our community) either.But this is about as unlikely as someone releasing a better Bitcoin client than Satoshi and the core developers could release. It's possible in theory but it's not like you can just learn how DPoS works overnight when it keeps changing.
Or better yet, they could launch an altchain and give all bitShares to Bitcoin holders. If this happens, we need to have a far greater adoption of bitShares than these other chains can hope to get.And we could launch an altchain and give it to Bitcoin holders and compete with theirs. Our chain could be better. And our distribution could go to the smallest holders in Bitcoin. We could do it far more fair. We could add new features, new assets, stuff which only Bytemaster could add in and ideas which only our community would come up with.
This is a big if...especially considering severely lacking support from the crypto-community outside our little watering hole here.
Trust me when I say I am here for the betterment of the community at large too...and I think my efforts are proving it (Thank god I have a wife who understands my motivations and has patience with my ridiculous altruistic nature--or I'd be divorced for my constant juggling of items between here and my real life).
With that said, the simple fact that people are bringing this up means that these ideas are wanting to be tested. This, to me, means we are already at a point where fracturing can (and likely will) occur at some point in the future. I know for certain that NoirShares is being worked on because of rifts that grew (which is ok). For the life of me, I have a hard time understanding how we can seem to get upset when ideas are flourishing. This is not a bad thing! Decentralization wants to be decentralized!
Can someone explain why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them? I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities. I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?
How can creating sidechains that honor other altcoins hurt the community if those communities want to honor bitShares holders in return for support by our community and (genius) devs? We forget how valuable BM's brain will be considered to other cryptocommunities once they start getting an equal stake in a chain that Bytemaster's code enhanced in ways they never could have conceived.Let's not put all of the value into Bytemaster. All of our brains are valuable as we all have unique talents. It's Bytemaster who is the programming and technical wizard, but there is a lot of talent in this community and that is what matters.
In this way, instead of stealing his brilliant ideas they are more likely to become part of a broader community that enhance eachothers' ability to innovate, which can then be adopted by all other forks, and even later improved upon by Dan and his team..
I do not pretend to have all the answers, and PLEASE TELL ME where my reasoning is faulty. I truly believe we can figure these things out...but we need to really WEIGH the positives and negatives of the options we see as opposed to saying "just shoot me now" (which was wonderful comic relief, btw).
P.S. Lets try to compile a list of downsides and upsides for the Air Drop to Keyhotee/Bitcoin/Blackcoin/Mastercoin/Ether compared to forging new DACs that enhance POS coins. Lets make this productive...and most of all, lets remember this has been one of the coolest experiments in the history of equities and we are lucky enough to all be in the position to even worry about these things. I know that, personally, I feel blessed to have been a part of this up to this point...even if I don't always agree with the friends I have made here.
*final note*--screw the Nay-Sayers...and lets not focus on the negative FUD they try to spread, it is precisely the variations of ideas that will strengthen our ecosystem over time against the threats we may someday face (perfect example here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4284.msg53910#msg53910). Most of these people do not even have a clue what the hell POS is let along DPOS. Their unwillingness to research is their fault, not ours.
Damnit...I should close this window. Lol...
I see no reason why Dan and the team should not go down this avenue. It goes right along with his philosophy of only changing things when it will give more to the investors in this project. And lets face facts, with the work Invictus is doing, someone is going to eventually come along and fork this anyway...with NONE of the funding/effort we put into bringing this to fruition--and they'll only honor their investors, completely cutting the community out. At least this way we can get them to continue supporting this new ecosystem.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c800a4e76547f1870685b9bbd12406acb3c0f6d724bdddd39a19e0261da295a7.jpg)
And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.
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(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c800a4e76547f1870685b9bbd12406acb3c0f6d724bdddd39a19e0261da295a7.jpg)
And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.
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Empirical1, if you read between the lines here, you will see....
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I honestly do not mind donating to the other option (though I am near certain I am in a very small minority)--and it is understandable why this fact is so frustrating (because it is obvious it would only increase the value of bitShares over time). These are both good ways to do it, but I also have no clue how we can protect from other coins' devs and communities simply taking the source code once it has been tested--all bugs fixed--and cloning it with slight alterations (even improvements). Not completely convinced that even strategic airdrops to keyhotee/blackcoin/bitcoin/mastercoin/ether will protect us from that.I explained how.
Each chain should offer something different. We should help communities make a custom chain and that would mean new BitAssets, slightly different tweaks, new untested features and innovations which get tested out on these custom chains.
The Bitshares is like a family of DACs. Blackshares would be like a step son, the offspring of the Bitshares community and the Blackcoin community. It would be based on Bitshares but more than a mere cut and paste clone.
Anyone can cut and paste a clone. I could cut and paste a clone. Anyone could change a few parameters around and act like it's something new. That is not good for the PoS community and I'm thinking of something better than that.
We can only fit 16 different assets give or take into each chain. This means we need a diversity of different chains to test out more assets. Blackshares with different assets in it and some unique surprise innovations would be enough to get our community interested in trying it out and since we'd own 50% of it we'd use it. The Blackcoin community would own the other 50% and the assets in their chain would be the assets they choose just as long as it's not the same set of assets that are in the original Bitshares chain it's win/win.
The PoS community needs to be encouraged to use DPoS. We can do this by these strategic mergers where we split the profit from it 50/50 and co-develop custom Bitshares chains with input from the best minds of both communities. Then both communities test these chains out and also the size of the DPoS community grows with each of these merger operations.
Airdrops are best to be used to get people to use Keyhotee and for future DACs like Lotto. I think with the Dogecoin community they might appreciate something like the DogeLotto which is a rebranded and customized chain of Bitshares Lotto. Both of these chains could co-exist but before you can convince people to want a DogeLotto you should try the Airdrop method because that method is the most cost effective.
We could Airdrop the Dogecoin community 10% of the Bitshares Lotto DAC for example with the intention of giving them a taste of what it's like to cooperate with our community. Once they see how profitable cooperation can be they'll want to go 50/50 with us on a future DAC co-developed using feedback from both communities.Bytemaster is a genius...this is a certainty. But this does not mean he is a god and that another dev team might not find a way to improve upon the bitShares code and release it wholly as their own (to the detriment of our community) either.But this is about as unlikely as someone releasing a better Bitcoin client than Satoshi and the core developers could release. It's possible in theory but it's not like you can just learn how DPoS works overnight when it keeps changing.
I think Bytemaster is the only man right now who can make it all work. Other developers can read the code, and improve on it in certain ways, but Bytemaster understands the economics. There is an authenticity that you gain by having official support from Bytemaster, and from the Bitshares community. I'm convinced at least for now that Bytemaster with the support of the rest of us have a significant advantage just because we're a community focused on these topics already while another community would have to start from scratch. Six months or a year from now this advantage will be gone which is why you want to form your alliances early.Or better yet, they could launch an altchain and give all bitShares to Bitcoin holders. If this happens, we need to have a far greater adoption of bitShares than these other chains can hope to get.And we could launch an altchain and give it to Bitcoin holders and compete with theirs. Our chain could be better. And our distribution could go to the smallest holders in Bitcoin. We could do it far more fair. We could add new features, new assets, stuff which only Bytemaster could add in and ideas which only our community would come up with.
Our advantage is that as a community of minds and talent we are top notch. It's not just Bytemaster, it's the chemistry of all of us combined that another community would have to compete with. Just because someone can cut and paste the Bitshares code and try to act like it's something new, it does not mean it would compete with an actual innovative new chain designed and tailored for the Bitcoin community. So that idea doesn't really concern me because that could happen to Ethereum, to NXT, and so on, but the reason why it's not going to be a concern is because a cheap cut and paste isn't going to be seen as a positive or unique innovation when all the mechanics and assets inside that chain are exactly the same.
The economics would also probably be wrong too. Bitcoin is inflating, so to map a Proof of Stake on top of a Proof of Work? You could do it, but how would you do it in a way which is fair?This is a big if...especially considering severely lacking support from the crypto-community outside our little watering hole here.
Trust me when I say I am here for the betterment of the community at large too...and I think my efforts are proving it (Thank god I have a wife who understands my motivations and has patience with my ridiculous altruistic nature--or I'd be divorced for my constant juggling of items between here and my real life).
With that said, the simple fact that people are bringing this up means that these ideas are wanting to be tested. This, to me, means we are already at a point where fracturing can (and likely will) occur at some point in the future. I know for certain that NoirShares is being worked on because of rifts that grew (which is ok). For the life of me, I have a hard time understanding how we can seem to get upset when ideas are flourishing. This is not a bad thing! Decentralization wants to be decentralized!
The whole design of Bitshares is that it would have multiple diverse chains each unique. This is actually one of the most promising features because it keeps things decentralized, allows alt communities to benefit, and there is no reason why they would have to clone our chain.
The original Bitshares chain should have its own unique assets in it. You can only fit a certain number of assets per chain anyway so we have to create forks on our own. It was assumed that we could just fork and keep 100% to ourselves but that probably isn't going to work.
So if we split 50/50 with other communities, they would have not just any fork but the best fork and the fork supported by the official Bitshares community. By giving us 50% and them 50%, you'd grow the size of both communities and the fringe developers who want to do something other than 50/50 will not be looked at as being fair. You cannot beat 50/50.Can someone explain why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them? I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities. I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?
That is what I think will happen and that is what I'm proposing should happen. It's better that we split with the PoS community 50/50 for Bitshares. I'm not advocating Dogeshares because they aren't PoS. Peershares are hybrid PoS so it's iffy. But Blackcoin is a community which holds the same economic values as our community and a way to promote these values is to build an alliance with the communities with them first.
If we are all about PoS replacing PoW then we should be forming alliances with PoS. This would promote DPoS and make the altcoin community switch to PoS. PoW will still exist and we can airdrop to them, but I think Bitshares as a chain should be all about PoS. This is something we can debate about for the future but I don't think it's fair to map Bitshares onto a blockchain which is inflating unless you can show that the community is truly asking for a switch to PoS. Bitcoin doesn't want to be seen as a share but if enough people do want that then we could come up with a Bitcoin edition of Bitshares.How can creating sidechains that honor other altcoins hurt the community if those communities want to honor bitShares holders in return for support by our community and (genius) devs? We forget how valuable BM's brain will be considered to other cryptocommunities once they start getting an equal stake in a chain that Bytemaster's code enhanced in ways they never could have conceived.Let's not put all of the value into Bytemaster. All of our brains are valuable as we all have unique talents. It's Bytemaster who is the programming and technical wizard, but there is a lot of talent in this community and that is what matters.
They can clone the source code, they cannot clone our brains. Any success we reach will be due to our brains, while the code is an expression of output which results from the coming together of minds and Bytemaster's technical wizardry. It's not just programming which will make Bitshares a success but the understanding of economics, the creative out of the box thinking, the willingness to test and fund completely new ideas.In this way, instead of stealing his brilliant ideas they are more likely to become part of a broader community that enhance eachothers' ability to innovate, which can then be adopted by all other forks, and even later improved upon by Dan and his team..
I do not pretend to have all the answers, and PLEASE TELL ME where my reasoning is faulty. I truly believe we can figure these things out...but we need to really WEIGH the positives and negatives of the options we see as opposed to saying "just shoot me now" (which was wonderful comic relief, btw).
I agree with you on a lot of this. I think that even if they could steal Bytemaster away from this community (and I'm sure they could not), there are others here they'd have to steal away too in order to win. The Bitcoin community has almost not chance of doing that. The Ethereum community or Mastercoin community might peel some of us away but as long as we own shares in this community we will promote this community.
I don't think people understand that when you distribute the shares you're getting the support of the top minds in every community. The number 1 resource of any community is it's thinkers.P.S. Lets try to compile a list of downsides and upsides for the Air Drop to Keyhotee/Bitcoin/Blackcoin/Mastercoin/Ether compared to forging new DACs that enhance POS coins. Lets make this productive...and most of all, lets remember this has been one of the coolest experiments in the history of equities and we are lucky enough to all be in the position to even worry about these things. I know that, personally, I feel blessed to have been a part of this up to this point...even if I don't always agree with the friends I have made here.
*final note*--screw the Nay-Sayers...and lets not focus on the negative FUD they try to spread, it is precisely the variations of ideas that will strengthen our ecosystem over time against the threats we may someday face (perfect example here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4284.msg53910#msg53910). Most of these people do not even have a clue what the hell POS is let along DPOS. Their unwillingness to research is their fault, not ours.
A pro and con list would be a good idea. To me the pros outweigh the cons which is why I am in support of these ideas. We want better marketing, we want fork resistance, and the best way to have that is to do the fork ourselves to the PoS community to at least form economic alliances with other PoS chains.
Some communities will not believe in fairness and if they don't believe in fairness there are options we have which could be unfair as well. This is why it's all about being a community of thinkers rather than a community of followers.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c800a4e76547f1870685b9bbd12406acb3c0f6d724bdddd39a19e0261da295a7.jpg)
And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
@Dan, I think you need to understand that this entire thread is based off of the knowledge that DPOS and its future iterations are going to be a GIFT to the entirety of POS coins. If it works like it seems like it could, we are looking at a frigging game-changer. I do not have all the answers, and just because I pose my own often-misled theories they are only there for people to think over. Hell, 1 out of approximately every 1000 actually get used!
If anything, you should consider this thread a testament to how absolutely powerful we think this innovation will be...that we actually think POS altcoins will jump at the chance to compete for its implementation on altchains should tell you that your hard work and perpetual problem solving means something. Do I know how it will ultimately manifest? Hell no, but I do know that there are as many distros of linux as you can shake a stick at...its just the nature of the beast. And I know that the "threats" to investors are pretty difficult to predict. Even well thought out solutions seem like shots in the dark to a certain extent. I for one like contemplating it, though I'm sure you want to bang your head against the wall at times :)
Oh, and btw, I have never once redacted the volunteerd 10% of my stake (though I am sure I am a little guy compared to some who will likely choose to donate nothing to the cause).
I am making no direct judgement on this thread... merely hinting that I have another approach that will gain the attention of these other POS coin holders in a way that is much cheaper.
I think that we need to carefully consider all ideas.
We could Airdrop the Dogecoin community 10% of the Bitshares Lotto DAC for example with the intention of giving them a taste of what it's like to cooperate with our community. Once they see how profitable cooperation can be they'll want to go 50/50 with us on a future DAC co-developed using feedback from both communities.
thinkers rather than a community of followers.
Thanks for this post. Great thinking in this whole thread.
But we would like to challenge you to go a step further:
Even more than a community of thinkers, we need a community of doers!
Don't wait for us to do stuff - take the lead yourselves.
BitShares is a decentralized community!
If you have a great promotion idea, go team with somebody and make it so!
We'll be there to help, but don't wait for us to lead.
That way leads to the dark side.
Communitycoin is another 100% POS with multipool.
http://community.bitcoinland.org/multipool/
They also have "Coin Control" allows you to control sending the coins with minimum coin-age, so to preserve maximum the pos generation.
They distributed the coins to "a selected community of experienced Crypto users, marketers and developers."
Another interesting experiment in live action.
Blackcoin collaborating with Doge. Looks to me like a shameless bribe.Perhaps I'm not being cynical enough here but...
http://www.followthecoin.com/blackcoin-supports-dogecon-first-coin-to-ever-support-a-conference/ (http://www.followthecoin.com/blackcoin-supports-dogecon-first-coin-to-ever-support-a-conference/)
Business is all about relationships and Bitshares is a business (not a cult!).
We aren't preaching the gospel, we are trying to make money. This means we have need friends.
I don't understand the attitude I see around here.