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Quote from: barwizi on January 03, 2015, 07:53:57 pmjust keep in mind how difficult it is to find AND KEEP core developers.just keep in mind how difficult it is to find confidence AND KEEP believing in DPOS for the market, keep in mind how easy shareholders walk away and never come back again. It's the holder to decide instead of employees, right? When we discussed what a DAC means, and Why is Bitshares better than Bitcoin, we said so.Sorry to say that but we don't need a king, and we don't want to play the game of throne either. If somebody can decide who's on that list, what we need dpos for? Leave all this to the system itself please.
just keep in mind how difficult it is to find AND KEEP core developers.
Quote from: Stan on January 04, 2015, 12:37:01 amWe need to be a little patient with this model.Many devs prefer technical complexity to social complexity. Asking them to participate in a continuous job interview is asking a lot.I expect that those of us who enjoy interacting with people are going to have to pitch in and help them out a bit here. Bytemaster has told us who he would like to have on his team. He is very, very, very picky.If we want BitShares to succeed, we won't ask alpha-geeks to perform unnatural acts.You do realize this is antithetical to the entire premise of being "hired by the blockchain"? In other words you are implying that it is impossible for stake-voters to accurately quantify the value of prospective hirees (because it is an "unnatural act" for devs to effectively market their services to the stakeholders).
We need to be a little patient with this model.Many devs prefer technical complexity to social complexity. Asking them to participate in a continuous job interview is asking a lot.I expect that those of us who enjoy interacting with people are going to have to pitch in and help them out a bit here. Bytemaster has told us who he would like to have on his team. He is very, very, very picky.If we want BitShares to succeed, we won't ask alpha-geeks to perform unnatural acts.
What would be very interesting is a thread with the official lists of devs so we can vote. If that doesn't exist yet.
Default should be a clean no vote.I don't mind a dialog box upon install, a one time option, asking to add core devs individually to my wallet vote, but they should definitely be off by default.
Many of the core developers are critical to the success of BTS and they are implicitly trusted by everyone who downloads the wallet. For this reason I would like to suggest that the next release of the BTS wallet set the "default" approval for the following core developers:Me, Toast, Nathan, Vikram, Valentine, James, Ben, Dan N., Eric F.
are u drunk? this is a stupid idea.
You cannot set default vote for core developing , but you can 1.set a select choice box let people select delegate slate recommended by developing. 2.the clients include a .txt file as the default voting delegate but the user can choice does not use it
I've read a lot of this thread and the overwhelming response is negative as expected given the goals of the community. Asked and Answered. This openness to community opinion is fantastic.Many applications (Office, Dropbox, etc.) come with opening animations or tutorials that briefly describe, in a few slides or few seconds, the main points about the product and how to use it. This is where an effective pitch can be made about the importance of voting to the ecosystem.
For now I think it's OK, but not so much in the future. Although you're absolutely correct that trust is implicit since they're the one's creating the wallet, the problem I see with it is the inherent bias or conflict of interest it represents. It weakens the minority shareholder representation by giving advantage to those that already have a strong influence.Let the shareholders wishes be purely represented.As I said, it's OK for now, and, as a default (for those who don't vote? what does default mean in this context exactly?) it makes perfect sense.
Many of the core developers are critical to the success of BTS and they are implicitly trusted by everyone who downloads the wallet. For this reason I would like to suggest that the next release of the BTS wallet set the "default" approval for the following core developers:Me, Toast, Nathan, Vikram, Valentine, James, Ben, Dan N., Eric F. Each of these guys is implicitly trusted and contributing directly to the github source. This would really help the core team to get and keep the votes necessary without having to worry much about their salary. Users could always "unvote" them. Thoughts?
I think it did no damage overall. The Bitcointalk thread was more positive than negative for PR overall especially at the end...
honestly, i hope he doesn't take that advice. the dev team's willingness to discuss everything with the community this way is one of this projects strong suits I think.FUDmeisters are gonna FUD no matter how much we give them. discussing this subject is harmless.We should be concerned about the FUD that springs from actual changes that get implemented. FUD from discussions like this only serves to make more people aware of the project in my opinion.
Quote from: Stan on January 03, 2015, 09:56:46 pmQuote from: davidpbrown on January 03, 2015, 09:35:52 pmI prefer stupid people are upfront and obvious. He's doing us a favour spawning activity on BitcoinTalk. More threads the better.. 'bad press' like this is weak and then good for the positive attention it will draw from sensible people who are not so easily taken in.Good point. Outrageous flaming posts can work like "click bait" to bring folks in for a whole BitShares promotional thread. Suggest we use such opportunities to recommend our favorite episodes of Max's BitSharesTV videos or Bytemaster's Blog articles. Hard to maintain the fiction of an obvious troll's accusations when you've got recommended links to reasonable people talking about exciting things. We are trying to cure their insomnia?
Quote from: davidpbrown on January 03, 2015, 09:35:52 pmI prefer stupid people are upfront and obvious. He's doing us a favour spawning activity on BitcoinTalk. More threads the better.. 'bad press' like this is weak and then good for the positive attention it will draw from sensible people who are not so easily taken in.Good point. Outrageous flaming posts can work like "click bait" to bring folks in for a whole BitShares promotional thread. Suggest we use such opportunities to recommend our favorite episodes of Max's BitSharesTV videos or Bytemaster's Blog articles. Hard to maintain the fiction of an obvious troll's accusations when you've got recommended links to reasonable people talking about exciting things.
I prefer stupid people are upfront and obvious. He's doing us a favour spawning activity on BitcoinTalk. More threads the better.. 'bad press' like this is weak and then good for the positive attention it will draw from sensible people who are not so easily taken in.
Perhaps in the future, it would be best if the dev team had initial private meetings to discuss things like this before bringing them to the forums. This way, when you do bring them to the forums, pros/cons for the idea can be established, as well as alternative ideas.
Quote from: bytemaster on January 03, 2015, 05:30:37 pmMany of the core developers are critical to the success of BTS and they are implicitly trusted by everyone who downloads the wallet.The trust we give the dev team when we download the wallet is the same trust that they won't do things like this.If you pushed this through, me or someone else would fork the code immediately upon new releases with this removed.Perhaps in the future, it would be best if the dev team had initial private meetings to discuss things like this before bringing them to the forums. This way, when you do bring them to the forums, pros/cons for the idea can be established, as well as alternative ideas.
Many of the core developers are critical to the success of BTS and they are implicitly trusted by everyone who downloads the wallet.
bad idea... makes it harder for us devs who are contributing and harder to become a delegate
Quote from: sumantso on January 03, 2015, 08:41:17 pmIgnore him, he is a trader who has sold and now hoping for lower prices.I actually never traded this away. Still have every BTS and bitUSD. More bitUSD now.
Ignore him, he is a trader who has sold and now hoping for lower prices.
Cat's already out of the bag.https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=913075.0Thanks newmine. I have to ask, if you hate BitShares so much...why the hell do you spend so much time here?
Quote from: delulo on January 03, 2015, 08:25:30 pmQuote from: nomoreheroes7 on January 03, 2015, 08:08:27 pmCat's already out of the bag.https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=913075.0Thanks newmine. I have to ask, if you hate BitShares so much...why the hell do you spend so much time here?Newmine, what is your motivation in doing this? Criticize inside (constructive at best), represent outside if you want to help BitShares grow!Ignore him, he is a trader who has sold and now hoping for lower prices.
Quote from: nomoreheroes7 on January 03, 2015, 08:08:27 pmCat's already out of the bag.https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=913075.0Thanks newmine. I have to ask, if you hate BitShares so much...why the hell do you spend so much time here?Newmine, what is your motivation in doing this? Criticize inside (constructive at best), represent outside if you want to help BitShares grow!
just stick a thread here on bitsharestalk forum where you explain which core devs you support and need anytime voted in... Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D
this summer
I'd just go with a yes/no dialog in the next wallet version on first launch."Would you like default votes set to support the developer team?"Or something to that effect. Doing it silently could be bad PR.
Or a "slate list" after open the wallet for the first time Dialog : Which build in voting slate you like to use ?1\I don't want to choose any of these 2\core developers 3\Xeroc's4\xxxxxxxx's5\yyyyyy's
I support a dialog on initial load, giving the user the ability to see who are in the slate, and a link to a thread describing the roles of each dev.
I think eventually the client needs a 'Delegate Campaigns' tab which shows delegate bids right in the client, possibly also with 'Delegate Slate Campaigns'. We could have a semi-annoying reminder every once in a while, or the delegate campaigns tab glowing a different color until they vote.
As per Rune.. keeping the controversy outside the client might be best. Pointers on how to in the wiki and have the forum host detail of slates, with perhaps a sticky slate detail of the core devs by way of strong indicator.I think there is some advantage in making the core devs more apparent.. perhaps biographies, even if fictional can help their getting votes. Are the ~business cases put somewhere easy to navigate?.. Perhaps could add those to the wiki.There's a rather good exhibition on at the London V&A about political movements and identity Disobedient Objects, which had me wonder that part of the way community and identity is encouraged is by tokens that acknowledge roles. Perhaps the forum could acknowledge people's roles in some way, so devs are less anonymous among the crowd.
There's no need to censor this thread.
There's no need to censor this thread. It's obvious that BM just wants a discussion about this since a lot of the core devs are getting scared of losing their paycheck. QuoteThe Devs SHOULD get scared of losing their paycheck if they don't continue to do their job as everyone else in real life. Having the devs automatically get elected and paid will make many people very uneasy.. QuoteLosing a core dev is still a lot worse than putting default votes in the official client, but I don't think either needs to happen. We just need to vote these guys in.Of course we all need to make sure that all of these guys are always voted since they are doing a great job. But these guys need also to keep having a large BTS stake to vote for themselves. What happens if they all dump their shares and are still get voted?QuoteHow about instead of having default votes, our entire community makes sure to make a lot of noise here in general discussion over the next couple of weeks to get everyone to vote for our core devs. They'll all be voted in soon enough.Whenever one of the Devs is risking to get voted out, the people managing their delegate should make a lot of noise to the community so they get elected back.Don't kill the democracy of the voting system by applying these kind of rules. This proposal I feel is contradicting the core principles that BM is evangelizing all this time.
The Devs SHOULD get scared of losing their paycheck if they don't continue to do their job as everyone else in real life. Having the devs automatically get elected and paid will make many people very uneasy.. QuoteLosing a core dev is still a lot worse than putting default votes in the official client, but I don't think either needs to happen. We just need to vote these guys in.Of course we all need to make sure that all of these guys are always voted since they are doing a great job. But these guys need also to keep having a large BTS stake to vote for themselves. What happens if they all dump their shares and are still get voted?QuoteHow about instead of having default votes, our entire community makes sure to make a lot of noise here in general discussion over the next couple of weeks to get everyone to vote for our core devs. They'll all be voted in soon enough.Whenever one of the Devs is risking to get voted out, the people managing their delegate should make a lot of noise to the community so they get elected back.Don't kill the democracy of the voting system by applying these kind of rules. This proposal I feel is contradicting the core principles that BM is evangelizing all this time.
Losing a core dev is still a lot worse than putting default votes in the official client, but I don't think either needs to happen. We just need to vote these guys in.
How about instead of having default votes, our entire community makes sure to make a lot of noise here in general discussion over the next couple of weeks to get everyone to vote for our core devs. They'll all be voted in soon enough.
Quote from: mf-tzo on January 03, 2015, 06:13:32 pmI can't believe that we even discuss this... I don't even want to mention why this is a bad PR idea as I will give bad actors and FUDers food for thought..I have another proposal as well... Let's make a delegate that is always voted and pay AGS shareholders every week. AGS shareholders were the ones who supported the project without expecting anything in return anyway..Please delete this thread before too many people see it..There's no need to censor this thread. It's obvious that BM just wants a discussion about this since a lot of the core devs are getting scared of losing their paycheck. Losing a core dev is still a lot worse than putting default votes in the official client, but I don't think either needs to happen. We just need to vote these guys in.How about instead of having default votes, our entire community makes sure to make a lot of noise here in general discussion over the next couple of weeks to get everyone to vote for our core devs. They'll all be voted in soon enough.
I can't believe that we even discuss this... I don't even want to mention why this is a bad PR idea as I will give bad actors and FUDers food for thought..I have another proposal as well... Let's make a delegate that is always voted and pay AGS shareholders every week. AGS shareholders were the ones who supported the project without expecting anything in return anyway..Please delete this thread before too many people see it..
Quote from: Troglodactyl on January 03, 2015, 05:47:44 pmI'd just go with a yes/no dialog in the next wallet version on first launch."Would you like default votes set to support the developer team?"Or something to that effect. Doing it silently could be bad PR.That sounds reasonable and would achieve the same goal.
Quote from: delulo on January 03, 2015, 06:06:36 pmHow many people can actually vote right now? I can't. Clicking "update vote" does nothing. And I am on the latest version (linux; re installed today).I can vote fine, v0.4.27.2 (built from source) on linux.It would also be nice if there was a way for delegates to retire and reject all current votes, instead of just dropping block production and waiting to be voted out. There are still init delegates that have more support than some developers.
How many people can actually vote right now? I can't. Clicking "update vote" does nothing. And I am on the latest version (linux; re installed today).
I think that this is a terrible idea leading to a very bad PR and I would delete this thread before many people see that proposal and start spreading unnecessary FUD. We cannot afford any more BTS dumping and if you go down that road this will undoubtedly happen.