Author Topic: Use optional ad revenue to lower fees.  (Read 6135 times)

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Offline xiahui135

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there is not many users yet. So do not expect there will any ad revenue. Unless you advertise for other central exchange or other spam crypto.

Offline fuzzy

Ads are not viable until you have eyeballs. This is akin to launching a blog, getting 1000 uniques per day and thinking you can make money monetizing them. Simply not going to work until BTS exchanges are popular.

100% agree...but that doesn't mean that the demographic drawn to bitshares can't still be a very valuable group to gain insights from.  Even a questionnaire on User Experience or User Demographics would be extremely valuable...and this is true even with a small group of eyeballs. 
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Offline luckybit

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Ads are not viable until you have eyeballs. This is akin to launching a blog, getting 1000 uniques per day and thinking you can make money monetizing them. Simply not going to work until BTS exchanges are popular.

Everything started out with no eyeballs but it doesn't mean ads aren't viable. It works for coinmarketcap and many other sites in the cryptospace already.

The users of BTS who opt-in are auctioning their eyeballs for money. If you look at coinmarketcap or LTB then you'd see there are sponsors.

You're assuming the marketing will not work and no one will use BTS 2.0. You're assuming BTS 2.0 has 0 users now. How many people have downloaded BTS 2.0? Where are the use statistics?

You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.

Im guessing this response has nothing to do with my recommendations.  Gamification techniques are one of the most potent ways of motivating others....

And it often doesnt even need to be something strenuous...and even if it is, you can make it something that one does rarely to unlock bonus features free of charge.  There should always be a pay option and an option to do work tonget the same bonuses.  No feature should be locked to only those who have lots of money. 

Making little tasks for people to do opens up many countries to bitshares who otherwise might not be able to afford everything.

I agree with this. We need to help people to earn access or earn money. The more opportunities to make money BTS 2.0 provides, the more people will use it.

People starting out with little money would want to grow their money, earn more money.  If i needed money for fees I wouldn't mind viewing ads, doing surveys, or other paid activities. The point is to bring as many as possible into the economy but you can't do that if you don't monetize the economy,

So people saying lower fees, but don't bring in optional ad revenue, or wait to profit later when there are millions of users, but it's not even about how many users but about how valuable the demographics are, about who those users are, and about the opportunities being offered to them in many different forms.

So a way to simplify it is everyone involved should have a chance for some win. Muse and many other projects might need to organize teams of people to market their products, so I do think that ads in the Bitshares client makes sense to advertise these opportunities to make money on a daily basis, but also opportunities to help committed community members to grow different blockchains using similar referral programs to Bitshares 2.0.

So in essence, the referrer has a job. It's a job with no boss. It's a job where the smarter and better they work the more money they can make. It's a job similar to a commissioned stock broker, which offers the opportunity to enter into a digital nomad lifestyle (a highly prized and coveted lifestyle). It's a job which is easy to market, and every new blockchain is going to need these sorts of people if we can prove the success of it on Bitshares 2.0.

So to me it's very important to support the referral program and job creation in Bitshares 2.0.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 05:30:01 am by luckybit »
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Offline Method-X

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Ads are not viable until you have eyeballs. This is akin to launching a blog, getting 1000 uniques per day and thinking you can make money monetizing them. Simply not going to work until BTS exchanges are popular.

Offline fuzzy

You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.

Im guessing this response has nothing to do with my recommendations.  Gamification techniques are one of the most potent ways of motivating others....

And it often doesnt even need to be something strenuous...and even if it is, you can make it something that one does rarely to unlock bonus features free of charge.  There should always be a pay option and an option to do work tonget the same bonuses.  No feature should be locked to only those who have lots of money. 

Making little tasks for people to do opens up many countries to bitshares who otherwise might not be able to afford everything.
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Offline Empirical1.2

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You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.
In other words you want an all volunteer staff that works for free, like Bitcoin.

Okay if you want that, organize it. Find the volunteers.

It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.  That's the way normal businesses work.  Why do you think Bitshares gets to defy gravity and be profitable with 0 users?  A restaurant isn't profitable with 0 customers.

I'm not a fan of ad revenue necessarily but which of the 499 other cryptos that are pursuing your preferred strategy with vigour of charging no/low fees with low/no marketing should we be emulating?

Last time I checked their user bases were stagnant and values generally declining.
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Offline luckybit

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You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.
In other words you want an all volunteer staff that works for free, like Bitcoin.

Okay if you want that, organize it. Find the volunteers.

It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.  That's the way normal businesses work.  Why do you think Bitshares gets to defy gravity and be profitable with 0 users?  A restaurant isn't profitable with 0 customers.

How do you think Google works? Tell them they should get rid of all their annoying ads.
What about Windows 10? How do you think they can afford to let people download it?

Those "free" apps you use aren't free. You're paying for it by viewing ads. It's the same model we should incorporate into Bitshares for the "Lite" version. If you don't like the fees then go use a centralized exchange like Bter, Cryptsy or some other where you don't know if your money will be safe.

Bitshares has no competition in the decentralized exchange space. Added security can be used to explain the higher than average fees. People will pay for security especially if they have a lot of money.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 12:14:16 pm by luckybit »
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Offline r0ach

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You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.
In other words you want an all volunteer staff that works for free, like Bitcoin.

Okay if you want that, organize it. Find the volunteers.

It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.  That's the way normal businesses work.  Why do you think Bitshares gets to defy gravity and be profitable with 0 users?  A restaurant isn't profitable with 0 customers.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Regards ad revenue. I'm not a big fan but it depends how it is done.

The coin telegraph headline reel on coinmarketcap.com works quite well, without feeling like I'm being advertised too.

http://coinmarketcap.com/

However besides revenue,
- There may be some value for customers of seeing what products and services are available on BitShares.
- There may be some value for investors to see a wide range of BTS products and services as it sends the message BTS is a blossoming, active platform.

On https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/explorer you could create a block on the bottom right. 'Third Party Products & Services'

So in a sense it's optional to click on it and that takes you through to a page where BTS products and services can be advertised.

We could auction off spaces, with some funds going to CNX/other for setting up the advert and making sure it meets the criteria of being a BTS product/service.

It could almost be like a yellow pages for BTS section. (Do you have yellow pages in USA?) but where the premium space on the front page of the section is purchasable.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 12:03:55 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline luckybit

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You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.
In other words you want an all volunteer staff that works for free, like Bitcoin.

Okay if you want that, organize it. Find the volunteers.

Honestly if you could do that then you'd already have millions of users. And I don't think we lose anything with the high fees. Market to the demographics that can pay the high fees and don't worry so much about developing countries unless they like watching ads and then let them do that.

Sacrificing profit is not an option though. No profit = no labor.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 11:52:41 am by luckybit »
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Offline r0ach

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You guys cannot be serious.  This idea and the referral system are both bad ideas.  The platform isn't supposed to be profitable with 0 users, stop pretending it should be.  Just like any new business, you run in the negative until you attract lots of users, THEN you profit afterwards.

Offline luckybit

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Scratch that... I'm not sure how useful this would be. Most people would rather go with an ad-free option that is low cost (or free) rather than a low cost (or free) version with ads. Surveys seem like a non-starter.. no way would I take the time to fill out a survey to save $0.05 when another service performs the same function for free.
Shouldnt be too bad if it is only required to do something like a weekly survey to "unlock" the free version...
Hell it could even give people brownies to complete them as a bonus...

Gamification is possible for these things. It doesn't have to be annoying if done right. It could even be that people play a game, get paid from playing the game, and use that to fund a transaction. Some games already pay people to play them so just let either play for pay, or watch ads for pay.


When they get enough points in the game, they get a fee token redeemable for the amount of BTS to pay the fee.
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Offline luckybit

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Scratch that... I'm not sure how useful this would be. Most people would rather go with an ad-free option that is low cost (or free) rather than a low cost (or free) version with ads. Surveys seem like a non-starter.. no way would I take the time to fill out a survey to save $0.05 when another service performs the same function for free.

The only way to lower fees while raising profits is with ads. You cannot lower fees and raise profits without losing revenue unless you replace the revenue from the lost fees.

This means you will have to do more like a survey every day, and watch ads around the clock, just like every other website online. Just like Coinmarketcap. Interupt the user experience to play a video before a transaction, a survey at random several times a week or several times a day depending on how active they are and how much need for surveys there are.

If people dont like the annoying ads, lifetime membership.
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Scratch that... I'm not sure how useful this would be. Most people would rather go with an ad-free option that is low cost (or free) rather than a low cost (or free) version with ads. Surveys seem like a non-starter.. no way would I take the time to fill out a survey to save $0.05 when another service performs the same function for free.
Shouldnt be too bad if it is only required to do something like a weekly survey to "unlock" the free version...
Hell it could even give people brownies to complete them as a bonus...

I guess if it could somehow go straight to the developers or the supporting community I would turn ads on. Micro fund development. :)

It has to be optional though. Don't force people to pay so they will not to have ads and surveys. That's so annoying and cheesy as hell... like uTorrent all over again.   ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 04:09:06 am by CoinHoarder »
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Offline fuzzy

Scratch that... I'm not sure how useful this would be. Most people would rather go with an ad-free option that is low cost (or free) rather than a low cost (or free) version with ads. Surveys seem like a non-starter.. no way would I take the time to fill out a survey to save $0.05 when another service performs the same function for free.
Shouldnt be too bad if it is only required to do something like a weekly survey to "unlock" the free version...
Hell it could even give people brownies to complete them as a bonus...
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Scratch that... I'm not sure how useful this would be. Most people would rather go with an ad-free option that is low cost (or free) rather than a low cost (or free) version with ads. Surveys seem like a non-starter.. no way would I take the time to fill out a survey to save $0.05 when another service performs the same function for free.
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Offline luckybit

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If the ads are optional, then yes please.

As to how it could be done...



I think the freemium model is good for lowering the barrier to entry but also it provides useful metrics for the industry as a whole. Surveys for example could allow developers from many different projects to know where the demand is and better meet it. Ads for everything from Muse, to Indentabit, to various altcoin companies, all could be used.

But one way or another we have to build the economy and if people cannot pay the fees because they don't have the money then they can pay with attention. Someone mentioned gateways, I don't know if that is the way to do it, but I don't think it's impossible to collect data directly from the interface, anonymous use statistics, surveys so we can know what our demographics are and what they tend to buy, ways for new projects to get clicks other than the forum, but for it all to work the Bitshares interface has to be more sticky.

Gamification is a great idea. And since anyone can host a wallet, maybe a Chinese entrepreneur can host a freemium wallet where people watch ads and take surveys to pay the fees.
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Offline fuzzy

Lets just PAY them to view ads so they can pay their fees.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bQVLiXR68Uv-Ea9s9YldjD16Qz-GWG7sgWih3Jiv9Dg/pub

Here's an internal document from Freebieservers discussing the possibility of using advertisements as a means to lower entry barriers for end users, especially in growing economies.
We didn't pursue it as a business and have scheduled it for the unforeseen future. Sharing, because relevant.

This is precisely why I love these guys.  They know crypto---because they understand two factors that it seems most of us miss: 
1)  3rd world barriers to entry and
2) Gamification techniques
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Offline CoinHoarder

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If the ads are optional, then yes please.

As to how it could be done...



There are already ad networks that pay in crypto, combine gateways and half of the equation is already completed.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 02:06:52 am by CoinHoarder »
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Offline luckybit

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Chinese don't want to pay for high transfer fee,
also don't need to see the damn ad.
they have  alipay and a lots of  bank can tranfer for free.
Then let them use Alipay. If they need the unique exclusive features of Bitshares then let them use Bitshares. Alipay is rumored to by backed by the state so of course it can run without any fees and without being profitable.

But in capitalism, nothing is free. Chinese don't have to want to pay the fee, they have to. We all have to pay the fees as the cost of service just like with Bitcoin or anything else.
the simple logic is: BTS set high transfer fee, BTS lose the payment business at Chinese market.
so let's just focus on exchange business, forget about the payment.

In capitalism you can't get something for nothing. Either pay the fees or watch the ad to pay the fee. To do neither is to ask Bitshares to somehow let Chinese users use the network at a loss to the network while everyone else subsidizes it. It's not sustainable, it's not fair, and even Google and Facebook pay for themselves with ads.

Freemium is really the only way you can have the feeling of free and freemium isn't actually free. It costs money to run Google and you pay for it with your eyeballs, your attention, which means Google is an advertising company because you're not paying the monthly fee to use Gmail and other services.

Pay the fees or watch the ads. I will not be supporting lower fees. If you think Alipay can do everything Bitshares can do, then go use Alipay.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 01:55:32 am by luckybit »
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Offline alt

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Chinese don't want to pay for high transfer fee,
also don't need to see the damn ad.
they have  alipay and a lots of  bank can tranfer for free.

the simple logic is: BTS set high transfer fee, BTS lose the payment business at Chinese market.
so let's just focus on exchange business, forget about the payment.

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maker taker
the one maker  add market depth  low fees
the one taker  low the depth more fees

Offline Method-X

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Lower the transaction fee, placing and canceling order fee.
Increase the fee when trade success to 0.05% or more.

We will get more income,  and less argument.

This. There is nothing inherently wrong with the referral program; only its current implementation.

Offline luckybit

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Lets just PAY them to view ads so they can pay their fees.

That is the basic idea. People who don't want to pay upfront can accept the freemium model and then everyone wins. We get people who have more money than attention and who do not have time to view ads, who will pay the fees or lifetime membership. We have people too poor which means they have more attention than money, so we can monetize their attention just like all the other free sites attempt to do.

Ads should be able to pay at least 20 cents an hour, at least 1 transaction an hour, 12 transactions a day,  or something reasonable like that. It ought to be enough money and it scales up if millions of users are involved.
Who is going to implement this and how ?
Who will embed ads and how much will it cost ?

I don't think it would require a hard fork, and from what I see of reactJS it seems trivial to implement ads. How to go about doing it in a decentralized way is a challenge but I think Bytemaster could dream something up. It's a source of potential revenue and the ad money would definitely flow in because people will want to hype their new assets, new opportunities, etc.
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Offline emski

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Lets just PAY them to view ads so they can pay their fees.

That is the basic idea. People who don't want to pay upfront can accept the freemium model and then everyone wins. We get people who have more money than attention and who do not have time to view ads, who will pay the fees or lifetime membership. We have people too poor which means they have more attention than money, so we can monetize their attention just like all the other free sites attempt to do.

Ads should be able to pay at least 20 cents an hour, at least 1 transaction an hour, 12 transactions a day,  or something reasonable like that. It ought to be enough money and it scales up if millions of users are involved.
Who is going to implement this and how ?
Who will embed ads and how much will it cost ?

Offline luckybit

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Lower the transaction fee, placing and canceling order fee.
Increase the fee when trade success to 0.05% or more.

We will get more income,  and less argument.

This is worth considering. Smarter fee structures may even allow us to raise the fees without it feeling like it.
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Offline luckybit

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Lets just PAY them to view ads so they can pay their fees.

That is the basic idea. People who don't want to pay upfront can accept the freemium model and then everyone wins. We get people who have more money than attention and who do not have time to view ads, who will pay the fees or lifetime membership. We have people too poor which means they have more attention than money, so we can monetize their attention just like all the other free sites attempt to do.

Ads should be able to pay at least 20 cents an hour, at least 1 transaction an hour, 12 transactions a day,  or something reasonable like that. It ought to be enough money and it scales up if millions of users are involved.
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Offline Xypher

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Lets just PAY them to view ads so they can pay their fees.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bQVLiXR68Uv-Ea9s9YldjD16Qz-GWG7sgWih3Jiv9Dg/pub

Here's an internal document from Freebieservers discussing the possibility of using advertisements as a means to lower entry barriers for end users, especially in growing economies.
We didn't pursue it as a business and have scheduled it for the unforeseen future. Sharing, because relevant.

Offline xiahui135

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Lower the transaction fee, placing and canceling order fee.
Increase the fee when trade success to 0.05% or more.

We will get more income,  and less argument.

Offline bytemaster

Lets just PAY them to view ads so they can pay their fees.
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Offline luckybit

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A person who wants lower fees should be given the option to accept advertisements. In exchange their fees could be lowered and the ad revenue could go toward purchasing and burning BTS.

I notice many participants in China and other places expect it to be free or nearly free. Offer a freemium model for people who want lower fees but do not lower the profits of Bitshares. All transactions should be paid for one way or another.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 01:47:32 pm by luckybit »
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