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Quote from: Empirical1.1 on November 20, 2014, 11:33:43 pmQuote from: merlin0113 on November 20, 2014, 11:18:16 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 07:30:13 pmQuote from: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:10 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value. BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations. So we don't use it as a currency. We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin. Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.EDIT: In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies. So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.No BTSX was like a real world gold, BTS is like a share in a competitive company that shareholders change based on what they think is best. Bytemaster has said if you want something like a gold, buy BitGold. I think some people will prefer something more like a real world gold backing BitAssets a bit more.Well, reading ur reply I suddenly realise that BTSX is actually gold as it is has a fixed amount. So I agree with you BTS is not suited to this analogy anymore...Unless we can see BTS as digital gold anyway because real world gold quantity is increasing somehow though in a very very slow pace. This is not the serious point anyway.Thanks toast for enlightening me, it's just the way I understand it. I would prefer a thing has collateral nature as analog of gold, which bitgold not have?
Quote from: merlin0113 on November 20, 2014, 11:18:16 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 07:30:13 pmQuote from: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:10 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value. BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations. So we don't use it as a currency. We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin. Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.EDIT: In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies. So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.No BTSX was like a real world gold, BTS is like a share in a competitive company that shareholders change based on what they think is best. Bytemaster has said if you want something like a gold, buy BitGold. I think some people will prefer something more like a real world gold backing BitAssets a bit more.
Quote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 07:30:13 pmQuote from: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:10 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value. BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations. So we don't use it as a currency. We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin. Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.EDIT: In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies. So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.
Quote from: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:10 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value. BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations. So we don't use it as a currency. We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin. Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.EDIT: In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft.
Quote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?
We have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.
Is it me, or have you accidentally blown up the last few days of the region shown in my chart and mislabeled the dates?
Quote from: monsterer on November 20, 2014, 06:59:54 pmQuote from: Ander on November 20, 2014, 06:20:03 pmThey havent moved at the same times, the same amounts. There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other. Where? Point out the major differences.Look, I'll include this again to help you:The market caps priced in USD appear to be masking much of the differences in price movements between BTS and NXT. Using my tool (http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/4/) I was able to generate a plot of the change in prices of the two assets over the same time period:You can clearly see that the BTS price was hurting more than NXT during the BTC bear market period from October 26 to November 2. But it seems to have returned back to normal relative to NXT from November 2 to November 10 during the BTC rebound. Then as BTC had its mini-bubble with a peak at November 13, both NXT and BTS went down, but again BTS went down faster than NXT, and what's worse is that it has continued to slide down despite the fact that the BTC price has somewhat stabilized in the short term and the NXT price is starting to reflect that stability.You can of course have very different interpretations from this data, but it seems clear to me that BTS is hurting more and that it is likely because of some large BTS holders becoming upset with all the latest changes and trying to get out slowly. I think that view is incredibly irrational and that BTS is much better off in the long run because of the merge to BTS and delegate dilution pay. Though this sell off is unfortunate, we are better off having the stake move to stronger hands who actually understand the value of the new system. I just hope the people selling have nearly finished divesting their stake and we can soon go back to higher prices.
Quote from: Ander on November 20, 2014, 06:20:03 pmThey havent moved at the same times, the same amounts. There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other. Where? Point out the major differences.Look, I'll include this again to help you:
They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts. There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other.
Quote from: toast on November 20, 2014, 07:18:35 pmQuote from: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:10 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?Price stability, interest, 10s transaction times.USD, CNY, GLD have the same stability over BTC, thats all?
Quote from: Crossover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:10 pmQuote from: Stan on November 20, 2014, 02:02:17 pmWe have not done that. BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?Price stability, interest, 10s transaction times.
Quote from: monsterer on November 20, 2014, 09:09:38 amPersonally, I think you're really grasping at straws saying NXT moves the same way as BTS because they had bad news as well. At the same time? By the same amounts? Really?They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts. There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other. Yes, the net result over time was kindof similar, but actually not all that much because BTS is now FAR below NXT. BTS is 4000 sat and NXT is 5000, thats 25% higher than us.BTS has pretty much been getting crushed by every single major crypto out there except for one or two.The main reason is because the whole merger and dilution change was completely bungled from a PR perspective.
Personally, I think you're really grasping at straws saying NXT moves the same way as BTS because they had bad news as well. At the same time? By the same amounts? Really?
That was back in May, and I'm sorry to say that in terms of global recognition Bitshares is still the little brother in the 2.0 space, despite our product being live and functioning and our market cap being bigger than all the others bar Ripple. Even Mastercoin that's been behind terrible stuff like the Maidsafe IPO somehow gets more recognition and press space than Bitshares. Adam was making valid points about the lack of marketing and the difficulty in getting people to understand our product, and provided a critical voice. I see he hasn't posted for over a month now, and I for one am sorry to see him go. He could've been a valuable partner but instead we scared him away..
This is how I personally see it... Bitshares is being hypocritical when it now switches from a deflationary cryptocurrency to an inflationary one. Sure, the inflation has been implemented for the "greater good", but it is hard to justify that for me. For months (almost a year) Bitshares has been marketing itself on the point that Bitcoin is diluting its shareholders, and that Bitshares looks at cryptocurrency differently in that it makes a profit for its shareholders by burning fees & being deflationary. I personally was sold on that point and it makes a lot of sense to me. Now, even though the dilution is more controlled (you can only dilute for developers, marketers, etc), it is still dilution and something I.. as a very small shareholder.. have no control over.
I'm not saying ABL is the greatest thing since sliced bread nor denying that some of his postings were rather tactless, I'm just saying we should try to keep the critical voices around and meet them with reason and maybe try to learn from what they're saying. Scaring people away doesn't make us look good, Hoskinson is another example of this..
@svkCome one man...you should have read quite a few other posts from the adored by all of us ABL, since May 16th...Any of those ring any bells:-I3 has 40% of BTS?-I3 is donating money to themselves (instead to ABL).-All US agencies are coming after I3, about now. Why ABL? - Cause I said so.
I apologize for the grave-digging but here's the conversation you must be referring to:Quote from: AdamBLevine on May 16, 2014, 11:40:24 pmI am the most controversial member of this forum (if you say so) because this forum is very hostile to users who do not think you know absolutely what you're doing. Look through old posts, you'll find them and note that they all left. Most people pick a project, maybe two and stick with it. I pick all the projects, invest in them all and try to help them all when they are doing the wrong thing. Look at NXT or Counterparty's forums and you'll see the same thing. I don't currently comment on Ethereum because they're doing just fine. I'm sorry I don't think you're doing a great job with Invictus, I really really don't. This project is by far in last place when compared against the serious players in the space and impugning my motives just further pushes away one of your biggest supporters.That was back in May, and I'm sorry to say that in terms of global recognition Bitshares is still the little brother in the 2.0 space, despite our product being live and functioning and our market cap being bigger than all the others bar Ripple. Even Mastercoin that's been behind terrible stuff like the Maidsafe IPO somehow gets more recognition and press space than Bitshares. Adam was making valid points about the lack of marketing and the difficulty in getting people to understand our product, and provided a critical voice. I see he hasn't posted for over a month now, and I for one am sorry to see him go. He could've been a valuable partner but instead we scared him away..
I am the most controversial member of this forum (if you say so) because this forum is very hostile to users who do not think you know absolutely what you're doing. Look through old posts, you'll find them and note that they all left. Most people pick a project, maybe two and stick with it. I pick all the projects, invest in them all and try to help them all when they are doing the wrong thing. Look at NXT or Counterparty's forums and you'll see the same thing. I don't currently comment on Ethereum because they're doing just fine. I'm sorry I don't think you're doing a great job with Invictus, I really really don't. This project is by far in last place when compared against the serious players in the space and impugning my motives just further pushes away one of your biggest supporters.
Quote from: svk on November 20, 2014, 08:43:41 am@gamey I'm not sure you'll appreciate any of this but I think our community's reaction to both Adam B. Levine and alphaBar are examples of a tribal, cheerleading mentality that doesn't reflect well on us.ABL once ridiculed our community for not being aware of how far behind we are. Since then we've launched and killed a chain that had a market cap greater than the large majority of crypto 2.0 projects.Alphabar is a completely different situation than ABL. I have mixed feelings on Alphabar. I would not have been so harsh on him if not for our previous arguments, but I do feel that his requests were genuine.A lot of the time you get out of the forum what you put in. I can pick apart these exchanges and will admit some level of culpability, but I don't think these are very good examples. I don't feel we're any more tribal than elsewhere. We're usually pretty open to legitimate criticism, but perhaps I am wrong. I like BTC and other altcoins even if I am reminded how sucky the confirmation times are whenever I am forced to use it. A lot of BTC people just despise anything that isn't on *the* official blockchain. but anyway I digress...
@gamey I'm not sure you'll appreciate any of this but I think our community's reaction to both Adam B. Levine and alphaBar are examples of a tribal, cheerleading mentality that doesn't reflect well on us.
I agree that the dominant factor was probably just the crypto bear market, not inflation. But inflation did probably have some effect (there were definitely a couple periods where we dropped 10% more than other cryptos, right after dilution announcements and plan changes.Also, while BTS performed similarly to NXT recently, both have performed weakly relative to the average altcoin during this period, and both actually had periods of terrible PR during this period. NXT was plagued by horrible PR during the whole bluemeanie theft fiasco.
This is how I personally see it... Bitshares is being hypocritical when it now switches from a deflationary cryptocurrency to an inflationary one. Sure, the inflation has been implemented for the "greater good", but it is hard to justify that for me. For months (almost a year) Bitshares has been marketing itself on the point that Bitcoin is diluting its shareholders, and that Bitshares looks at cryptocurrency differently in that it makes a profit for its shareholders by burning fees & being deflationary. I personally was sold on that point and it makes a lot of sense to me. Now, even though the dilution is more controlled (you can only dilute for developers, marketers, etc), it is still dilution and something I.. as a very small shareholder.. have no control over.You can say the inflation will help with development, advertising, etcera, and for the record I do not think that is incorrect. The problem is Bitshares is trying to live hypocritically when it comes to its stance on dilution. It can be easily argued (just as easily as some have ITT) that Bitcoin dilution compared to its volume has little to no effect on its price in terms of selling all dilution on the market. If Bitshares were valued similarly.. it would be no different in reality.. it too would need hundreds of millions of dollars pouring in yearly to sustain its price.This is part of the reason I dropped the idea of being a delegate. I feel like there's far too much group think that goes on in this community, and I gave up on pleasing the community to sideline my opinions. Instead of echoing each others ideas we should be preaching our own. Don't get me wrong, Bytemaster is a smart guy.. one of the smartest in crypto... but there is a reason corporations and governments have checks and balances. Also there is a reason why any decentralized crypto worth its weight should too. He has come up with many great ideas, and this very well could be another one of them, but I would just like everyone to think and come to that conclusion for themselves.A couple controversial things have happened in recent history that I personally (I know I'm not alone) and others do not agree with. Those things have to do with dilution and altering the social contract. If Bitshares changes its philosophy on these biiiiig issues, then what else will it change its mind on? This is certainly part of the reason for the price swing downwards. It is not the downward pressure from people actually selling dilution awarded shares, but the negative connotation involved with the two major negative-speculative changes to Bitshares.Whether you agree with this or not.. I do not care.. but it has had some affect on the price and public perception. Whereas I was 100% behind Bitshares before the changes, I am now personally more of a casual observer at this point. Then again.. I don't own very much Bitshares to begin with so whatever you guys decide is up to you. I agree the crypto market in a whole has been a bear market lately, but you can't discount recent events that could have contributed as well. There are several cryptocurrencies that have grown in value since then, and we as a community can only look at ourselves as to the success of the value of the Bitshares token. We are a product of our own success or failure... short of a total Bitcoin collapse... cryptocurrencies are not going anywhere anytime soon.Trust me, I want good things for Bitshares shareholders.. I just cannot continue to sit back and bite my tongue on some issues. Think for yourselves people, as the saying goes.. more heads are better than one... echoing thoughts and opinions doesn't help anyone... specifically getting Bitshares to where it needs to be. An echo chamber is not what makes successful communities, companies, or currencies. Yes, I have been incredibly hard on Bitshares lately, but that is because I feel like hardly anyone else in this community is, and that is what is required to be successful.
Just wait until the marketing starts and the Music fundraiser is finished December 6th. Money is coming in to BTS soon. Enjoy this buying opportunity.
Quote from: arhag on November 20, 2014, 01:50:04 amQuote from: Empirical1.1 on November 19, 2014, 11:58:28 pmI'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated. Enjoy: http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/Thanks. I would do it from earlier than that though
Quote from: Empirical1.1 on November 19, 2014, 11:58:28 pmI'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated. Enjoy: http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/
I'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated.
Quote from: monsterer on November 19, 2014, 10:36:17 pmQuote from: toast on November 19, 2014, 10:23:17 pmHow low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.I created a nicer plot if you want to compare the price of BTSX vs NXT. They are all priced in USD but I also included BTC (or at least BTC/10000) in the plot for comparison as well. This is over a time period of the last 90 days.
Quote from: toast on November 19, 2014, 10:23:17 pmHow low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.
How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.
the scenario that all delegates sell all their paid bts (with this prices) every month is at least ... "science fiction"... please...(and consider the average payrate for all delegates will be low even in a couple of months....)
Quote from: toast on November 19, 2014, 10:39:52 pmOk, now how do you estimate how actually adding $x of sell pressure per unit time will affect the price? Can we only inflate and immediately sell as the cap is rising or not?If you are talking about the effect of one single paid delegate selling all their shares into the market as they get them, the effect is negligible. If you are talking about what would happen if 101 full pay delegates all sold all their shares into the market as soon as they got them, then lets take a look:btc38 has roughly 10 million shares in volume per day. 101 full paid delegates would get 432000 BTS per day. They would represent ~4% of the daily volume in terms of new sell pressure. I think that this would be enough to impact the market, but not completely tank it.Obviously, you get more value for your shares if you dilute when prices are high, during a bull cycle, rather than diluting deep in a bear market. (I dont think anyone could argue that we are deep in a bear market, even if you think its going to get even worse).
Ok, now how do you estimate how actually adding $x of sell pressure per unit time will affect the price? Can we only inflate and immediately sell as the cap is rising or not?
Right...If long term members in this community expect the low to be $20-$25 mil then the low will be $5 - $10 mil... Great... Am I the only one in here shorting bitusd?? What's wrong with you people?? Is this such a bad move integrating DNS and Vote in BTS with 20% dilution?? Imagine what will happen if in the future for some reason there is a proposal to further inflate BTS by acquiring Music or Play..lol..The business plan doesn't work very well currently...
Right...If long term members in this community expect the low to be $20-$25 mil then the low will be $5 - $10 mil... Great...
Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.