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Messages - Empirical1

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271
KeyID / Re: Why inflation?
« on: August 05, 2014, 01:47:38 am »
Other thoughts -

At the moment you've given the market an allocation model you think is optimal in terms of sharedrops and equity release.

I think the optimal model is actually the one that the market supports the most (as that is the one that will get bootstrapped) & that falls within the minimum/maximum requirements that you feel as developers this DAC will need.

Step 1: Ask the market what allocation model they think is best. (85% weighted to the Chinese poll) 

Give them a range of sharedrop options starting with the minimum to maximum you think is viable.
Give them a range of equity release models, starting with the minimum to maximum you think is viable.

Step 2: Give it to them

Step 3: Profit (& move on to people being more interested in and promoting the DAC)


If you trust shareholders to elect good delegates why not trust them to have some say in the allocation?

(Edit: They can answer in their reply and need more than X posts, to avoid the poll being gamed...)

272
KeyID / Re: Alternative DNS White Paper
« on: August 05, 2014, 01:13:02 am »
 +5%  +5%  It looks like this model adds in leasing which the previous model didn't have?

This is kind of what  I said was wrong with the first model...  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3635.msg45990#msg45990

Quote from: Empirical1 on March 17, 2014, 04:57:54 pm
BitsharesDNS seems to only solve 1/2 the problem.

Problem: Not all pieces of land are worth the same.
Solution: Auction the pieces of land so that they achieve closer to their current market value.

However another real problem is...

Problem: Pieces of land are worth vastly different prices at different times.
Example: If BItsharesDNS becomes popular then the network would have been vastly underpaid for the domains, if BitsharesDNS fails, then the network would have been vastly overpaid for those domains.

(Edit: Also once most of the valuable land has been sold off where is the future value for BitsharesDNS holders? Won't the current model decrease it's value over time, once most of the desirable land has been sold?)

Solution: Some form of leasing.

The Native Indians for example sold Manhatten for roughly $24. That was probably more than they got for other parcels of land but still vastly undervalued relative to Manhatten's future value. Currently BitsharesDNS seems to make shareholders Native Indians?

Contrast this for example to the third richest British man, he is the 6th Duke of Westminster, worth $8 billion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Grosvenor,_6th_Duke_of_Westminster
How? He owns 300 acres of Mayfair and Belgravia (The priciest areas in London) People can still buy and sell properties, but he owns the freehold so they pay a small annual ground rent to him. (The next richest landowner in the London is the Royal family.)

So I think the key to maintianing the value of Bitshares DNS is to create a fair lease system of some sort. This may negatively impact the sale prices in the beginning as the market will adjust to the additional cost but it will ensure the long term success of BitsharesDNS holders (The Royals and Dukes etc. have maintained their wealth over 100's of years by owning the freehold of underlying lands.)

Possible solution:
Every two years for example, each domain is automatically auctioned again. The current owner has 30 days in which he has the option to either sell the domain to the winning bidder or keep his domain for another 2 years by paying 1% of the winning bids price. (1/2 of it may go to final bidder and 1/2 to the network, maybe even a bit to a maintenance and development fund. Thus ensuring BitsharesDNS has long term value and can extract a little bit of value from Domains that go on to be very succesful.)

273
KeyID / Re: lets find a name for the DNS DAC
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:52:06 pm »
Quote from: feedthemcake on August 04, 2014, 10:32:42 pm
Quote from: Vato_KettenBlog on August 04, 2014, 10:30:28 pm
Quote
It's like you could have called it 'Toast DNS.'  People would have an idea what the DAC did but after a while they would just start calling it it's cool brand name 'Toast'
If you call it BitShares DNS, there's no cool brand name for it to become and if you make it BitShares 'Cool brand name', like X, then you lose the function. Tricky.
I don`t believe you need a function in the name.
It have to be easy to spell and need the ability to burn itself into peoples minds and it could not harm if its only cool.
Take for example Ripple, Nxt, Google, Sprite, Fanta ... those brands are not related to any funtion, but who cares, they sound cool.

So yeah why not call it BitShares Toast. In 2 years no one will ask anymore what is Toast? Ist just there and People know what to do with it.

 +5% +5% on "Bitshares Toast"

Yes true, I generally agree with you here again.

I still think indicating the function could be useful early on, and I'd still like people to know BitShares-PTS was BitShares-'The one you hold for snapshots of new DACs' as I still find people are uncertain of how BitShares works even a year in. So still a bit tricky for me again.  (I guess by the end of the year there will have been enough snapshots that people will know)

 +5% for BitShares Toast too  :)

274
KeyID / Re: Why inflation?
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:44:06 pm »
Quote from: toast on August 04, 2014, 09:43:42 pm
Empirical1, are you factoring delegate pay rate into your calculations? If pay rate is below 100, part of the subsidy is burned (NOT saved).

Hi Toast, yeah I was factoring it in, in the sense that I knew shareholders could burn some of that first year equity release if they didn't find a profitable use for it.

I think shareholders would be more comfortable with a much lower equity release model especially for the first DAC and when you look at how much $ the business may need, having a max potential 100% inflation may be unnecessary too... 

Edit: Maybe my example isn't that great with the percentages, but yeah it's just the idea that a bigger chunk of the total equity is awarded up front and the maximum potential 'inflation' per year is less. In my example it was max 50% in the first year, but I have a feeling even lower, max 33% would be received better, with a  30-60 delay till it kicked in. It would be interesting to do a poll.



275
KeyID / Re: lets find a name for the DNS DAC
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:18:14 pm »
Quote from: Vato_KettenBlog on August 04, 2014, 10:04:36 pm

The power of the BitShares brand is what keeps us stronger than those altcoins and lonely wolfs in cryptospace. Only together we are strong.


 +5% Great post Vato!  Some great points, interesting things to think about! I'm not sure here.

I think my main thing was

a) BitShares X would be better if it hinted more at it's function maybe
b) I've seen a couple of people on BTT asking should I hold BitShares X or BitShares PTS for the snapshot?   

Maybe BitShares 'something' is fine, maybe people will just start calling it 'something' and drop the BitShares over time or if there's a major issue with BitShares you can drop it then.

Thoughts

It's like you could have called it 'Toast DNS.'  People would have an idea what the DAC did but after a while they would just start calling it it's cool brand name 'Toast'

If you call it BitShares DNS, there's no cool brand name for it to become and if you make it BitShares 'Cool brand name', like X, then you lose the function. Tricky.



276
KeyID / Re: Delegate subsidy clarification
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:06:13 pm »
Cool, thanks for the clarification.

My concern still is that shareholder participation is low early on, so the developers stake will be deciding the majority of delegates.

Obviously the developers want the DAC to succeed so they're not on a mission to award themselves a huge % of the equity by the end of the year. So it's fine.

I think it's just such a big amount of potential equity release that it could create some problems and the market may have been more comfortable with a little less is all.

277
KeyID / Re: [ SNAPSHOT: 8/21 ] DNS
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:02:14 pm »
Quote from: Riverhead on August 04, 2014, 07:50:24 pm
Quote from: tonyk on August 04, 2014, 07:40:42 pm
I also think that because of the significant ‘air drop’ nor he neither Bitshares/I3 want this to be perceived as Bitshares are ‘air dropping’ on our coins.


Excellent point.  I hadn't considered this.

Yeah but we should want to be perceived that way imo,  unless we don't believe in PTS.

What makes BitShares-PTS great is that nothing else does that job. BitShares-PTS serves no other purpose than being a vessel for snapshots. Anybody holding PTS on 21st Aug will specifically want the Namespaces DAC and they would have paid a premium for the priveledge.

People holding other alts are holding them because they like them for other reasons, most won't be particularly interested in the DAC nor have paid a premium to own it. (If they did want Namespaces, they would have bought PTS before the snapshot - if it's properly advertised.) Anyone sharedropped equity on other alts will likely be a seller. That's why if you want to get a distributed, strong base of supportive shareholders you do a snapshot to PTS.

That premise has already taken a hit with the BitSharesX, post-launch sell off, but that was the result of a big (worthwhile) delay from snapshot and no marketing on launch. (Again for good reason they're waiting) but still, it makes BitShares-PTS look to the market, like it didn't do it's job. (The shareholders weren't supportive.)

In this DAC by dropping such a large amount on other coins we're going to be creating a lot of potential selling pressure on launch, given that our launch marketing isn't proven yet, I'm personally predicting another potential post-snapshot drop.

The fact that we share-dropped significantly elsewhere in the first place, makes PTS look slightly negative imo and the fact that the sharedrop could create a sell off, will after the BTSX launch cement the idea incorrectly in the markets mind that BitShares doesn't give a strong supportive shareholder base.

It's unfortunate that I will be pre-snapshot seller, and AGS on launch seller, even though I'll most likely be a long term buyer of the DNS DAC.

(I think large sharedrops to people who aren't specifically wanting to be shareholders is probably a mistake. Again this is just my personal opinion & I hope to be proven wrong and I hope people know that I am a long term supporter of BitShares and am generally very positive about it. )

278
KeyID / Re: Why inflation?
« on: August 04, 2014, 09:38:08 pm »
Quote from: CLains on August 04, 2014, 09:15:04 pm
You see? These are asymmetrical scenarios. We must TEST and EXPERIMENT.

I did suggest that the first DAC to implement them should do so in a less extreme way to 'test and experiment' and go from there. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5467.msg74339#msg74339

Quote from: Empirical1 on July 09, 2014, 05:29:03 pm

I do like the idea of 10/10 & 80 via delegates over 10 yrs, some thoughts though - 

- It will come across as inflationary
- It may feel like you're required to trust the delegates even more.
- Given how much funding businesses need in the real world we don't have to set aside that much.

So I think it may be something to aim towards for future DAC's depending on how it works with a smaller delegate allocation.

A) I like 20/20/60   

Year 1  Year 2   Y3     Y4    Y5     Y6     Y7    Y8     Y9    Y10
 
20%     10%      8%    6%   4%   4%    2%   2%   2%  2%


I would also suggest the first year equity release wait 30-60 days of year 1 to kick in, so delegates and shareholders can find their feet in the new DAC and so that shareholders can be properly campaigned to by & vet potential delegates

I like the delegate equity allocation model, I just felt it was too much especially for the first one. I prefer 20/20/60 or even 25/25/50.  It's just my personal opinion though.

279
KeyID / Re: lets find a name for the DNS DAC
« on: August 04, 2014, 09:03:16 pm »
Quote from: Stan on August 04, 2014, 08:00:10 pm
This is a time-proven strategy, as you can see from all the products that benefit from the Coke, Nestle, Toyota, Proctor and Gamble, and ACME umbrella brands.

Very few of the products that fall under the umbrella brands you listed, mention the umbrella brand in the product name.

Proctor and Gamble



Coke



----
All major umbrella brands and their products, big image - http://convergencealimentaire.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mapsmall.jpg



280
KeyID / Re: lets find a name for the DNS DAC
« on: August 04, 2014, 08:31:34 pm »
What about just a letter 'B' or a symbol in the name that indicates they're related to BitShares?  You could still see the DAC's are linked but they still get to have their own cool name.

281
KeyID / Re: [ SNAPSHOT: 8/21 ] DNS
« on: August 04, 2014, 08:13:11 pm »
Quote from: toast on August 04, 2014, 08:02:14 pm
Maybe "toxic" was too negative of a word, I suppose I mean that people have a very specific perception of what "BitShares" means which is not accurate and generally negative.

IDK, maybe "BitShares DNS" really is the way to go. But if BTSX gets in trouble, I want it to be clear that DNS has nothing to do with "shares" or "trading" or anything.

I agree the individual DAC's shouldn't be named 'BitShares-Something', they should have their own cool names.

I also don't think you can get much consensus putting those kind of things to forums, so would be better if you named it. 
Or maybe came up with your 2/3 favourite names and let people have a say on that.

(Same with the allocation model, running 2/3 models by shareholders would have made it a non issue, when I fear now it may detract from the actual DAC. It's certainly influenced my trading decisions even though I'm a big fan of the DAC.)


282
KeyID / Re: [ SNAPSHOT: 8/21 ] DNS
« on: August 04, 2014, 08:02:43 pm »
Quote from: CLains on August 04, 2014, 07:57:57 pm
why is it toxic? when coinmarket cap slowly gets taken over by "BitShares" the whole world will pay attention.. maybe some legal issues? :(

If the Namespaces snapshot is popular you could even see both BitShares-PTS and BitSharesX in the top 10 soon, which would be pretty cool  8)  (BitShares-x.info is already moving nicely up the rankings thanks to the coinmarketcap listing)

283
KeyID / Re: [ SNAPSHOT: 8/21 ] DNS
« on: August 04, 2014, 07:46:17 pm »
Quote from: tonyk on August 04, 2014, 07:34:18 pm
@Empirical1

 Let's market the hell out of a product that does not work yet.
 So everybody can try a TV with no screen, end never want to hear about it again.

 +5% Yes I hope this is the case.  Personally I think BTSX is brilliant. I dont think it can go much lower. So I'm buying more nearly everyday and I'm hoping there are good things in the pipeline. I thought the LTB interview was brilliant but as I haven't seen much else tangible yet, I won't be convinced BitShares can market something till I see it.


284
KeyID / Re: [ SNAPSHOT: 8/21 ] DNS
« on: August 04, 2014, 07:29:15 pm »
Quote from: Shentist on August 04, 2014, 07:17:34 pm
Quote from: toast on August 04, 2014, 07:07:50 pm
Quote from: Shentist on August 04, 2014, 06:54:05 pm
Quote from: toast on August 04, 2014, 06:47:28 pm
I would like to avoid "BitShares" in the name.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

why? would be good to have it. if bitshares will be big in the future, it will be a big advantage to have bitshares in the official name.


IMO the bitshares brand is currently toxic and I think DNS will help it more than bitshares will help DNS.

toxic? could you say something more?

my feeling is, nobody nows about this project or is waiting for the market function to be implimented in bitsharesX. would be like to say i don't want to take the surname of my parents it has a bad reputation at my neighborhood

I would say it's the BitShares marketing more than the BitShares brand. (The allocation is potentially an issue in this DAC too.)

Marketing is publicity, press, announcements, interviews, videos, forum presences, competitions and promotions.

The NameSpace snapshot marketing has so far consisted of starting a thread in the general discussion area of the BitShares forum as far as I can tell...

BTSX has shown that even if you have a phenomenal product if it is released with hardly any of the marketing tools described above, the customer doesn't know about it and as a result there is no demand.

Edit: BitShares has come a long way in terms of it's marketing material (Content, websites etc.) and St. Martin looks promising but in terms of external marketing, BitShares is minimal. (I pointed out in the marketing sub-section an article which describes BitSharesX as a bucketshop is second only to the website itself in a google search.)

285
General Discussion / Re: Update would be great please..
« on: August 04, 2014, 05:52:30 pm »
Quote from: merockstar on August 04, 2014, 05:46:37 pm
Quote from: Empirical1 on August 04, 2014, 05:43:39 pm
Quote from: merockstar on August 04, 2014, 04:41:33 pm
Quote from: Empirical1 on August 04, 2014, 03:30:26 pm
Quote from: NineLives on August 03, 2014, 09:51:33 pm
Hi guys,

I'm soo sorry to fire these questions but I keep falling behind of our new BTS world and I hope you guys can help me catch up.

2)   I'm excited to see the new wallet, however, I can't seem to make an account from inside the app?


Yes, this is a problem. The fact that you have to do this at all. And the fact you are obviously someone who's familiar with BTS but you can't find this information without asking for it, shows how poorly this part of the set up process has been communicated.

if you want, just find your public key. it looks like this BTSX7N3PmjQGAssnAJP31uxewW9tsJ2SuBRqQnKPZjArazmqgFWDns, post it, and i'll send you a tiny bit to get started.

Thanks rockstar :) I've got my account going nicely thanks and it actually wasn't that hard to figure out.

It's just creates a small barrier to entry when you can't just download the wallet and withdraw to it I feel.

On BTT the first thread on BitShares is on page 3 and it's someone asking how to fund the account - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=723236.0

(So that's a problem when people's first experience is that problem and I also think it's negative that we're not maintaining any threads there that rank higher. I used to make an effort myself but I'm not 100% behind the sharedrops and 1st year equity release for the upcoming snapshot so I don't think I can personally promote them.)

i figured you did :P was quoting you but speaking to OP, my bad.

maybe there should be a one-click faucet built right into the client.

 +5% Yeah that would be great, I think there was a plan for something like that.

I'm sure the developers must be busy with loads of stuff though.






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