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This keeps getting more interesting...http://www.ekathimerini.com/199945/article/ekathimerini/news/varoufakis-claims-had-approval-to-plan-parallel-banking-system
I have a friend who's node is shutting down because businesses will no longer accept credit cards issued from Greek banks.
A good interview with the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis:http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greeceThe interview was done before Tsipras made the infamous deal last Sunday but still it gives some interesting insight of what's going on behind the scenes.And it looks like Varoufakis expected this to happen as he says:QuoteIt wouldn’t shock me [if Tsipras] stays on and accepts a very bad deal.
It wouldn’t shock me [if Tsipras] stays on and accepts a very bad deal.
I shared this story in my facebook feed today:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/13/euro-family-angela-merkel-greek-bailoutTLDR:The machinations of financial institutions (the troika) have been exposed as much as the institutions themselves. Who runs these banks, and for whom? Twitter slogans talk of the three world wars: the first waged with guns, the second with tanks and this third world war waged by banks. Extreme? Well, there clearly is more than one way to take over a country.
Quote from: mf-tzo on July 12, 2015, 08:22:32 pmWhen I mentioned the word "democracy" Pernie jumped in and spoke about anarcho-capitalism..In the beggining I was what is he talking about..Now I understand..I never felt so stupid living in "democracy"...My God democracy apparently is an illusion..I realise that now...The Greek referendum will remain in history as the world's most unnecessary and useless and pointless referendum..I never felt so ashamed beeing Greek in my life..People voted clearly NO. and by voting NO it was obvious that they 1. Do not want new austerity measures2. Do not really care if we left the EUROAnd the fucking loser politicians, turned a NO vote to more and more and more austerity measures. Not only that but they are clearly negotiating of selling and giving the national property.. Let's give a couple of islands in order to stay in the Euro...OOOhhh my God...I really can't believe this is happening in my country...I am so pissed off right now..I can't believe how someone is urging people to vote NO, says for the last 6 months that Greece will not stay in Euro at any cost, people clearly vote in favor of not giving up and then he turns a NO vote to the biggest "mnimonio" ever just because Markets didn't react very negatively to a Grexit and is he is afraid to take the road he was preaching for the last 6 months..Of course the markets would not react unless Grexit really does happen you f..ing moron...He is planning to destroy the farmers, agriculture, tourism, shipowners, retirements, health and insurance, sell the national property, increase immensely the taxation..He really hasn't left anything not to destroy because he is afraid to issue IOUs and get out of the EU..I will never ever keep another Euro in my bank account and I refuse to be part of this corrupted system..Go Crypto Go!!Are you seriously saying that I've convinced you of anarcho-capitalism >> democracy?? When I wrote it I remember thinking 'this isn't going to change anyone's view but I'd like to be able to say I put my reasoning out there'I'm afraid that bankrupting Greece and then raiding it's public resources was probably the plan all along. It's really terrible.If people don't start to take notice or care what's happening to PEOPLE JUST LIKE THEM in other countries then I think a few small islands may seem trivial compared to the landgrab that could be coming."That debt we gave you looks pretty hefty... How about you give us all your land-rights and veto-power over any laws you make and we'll call it... not 'even' but yknow, we'll go and fuck someone else for a bit"
When I mentioned the word "democracy" Pernie jumped in and spoke about anarcho-capitalism..In the beggining I was what is he talking about..Now I understand..I never felt so stupid living in "democracy"...My God democracy apparently is an illusion..I realise that now...The Greek referendum will remain in history as the world's most unnecessary and useless and pointless referendum..I never felt so ashamed beeing Greek in my life..People voted clearly NO. and by voting NO it was obvious that they 1. Do not want new austerity measures2. Do not really care if we left the EUROAnd the fucking loser politicians, turned a NO vote to more and more and more austerity measures. Not only that but they are clearly negotiating of selling and giving the national property.. Let's give a couple of islands in order to stay in the Euro...OOOhhh my God...I really can't believe this is happening in my country...I am so pissed off right now..I can't believe how someone is urging people to vote NO, says for the last 6 months that Greece will not stay in Euro at any cost, people clearly vote in favor of not giving up and then he turns a NO vote to the biggest "mnimonio" ever just because Markets didn't react very negatively to a Grexit and is he is afraid to take the road he was preaching for the last 6 months..Of course the markets would not react unless Grexit really does happen you f..ing moron...He is planning to destroy the farmers, agriculture, tourism, shipowners, retirements, health and insurance, sell the national property, increase immensely the taxation..He really hasn't left anything not to destroy because he is afraid to issue IOUs and get out of the EU..I will never ever keep another Euro in my bank account and I refuse to be part of this corrupted system..Go Crypto Go!!
Quote from: cylonmaker2053 on July 09, 2015, 03:50:11 pmQuote from: JoeyD on July 09, 2015, 03:37:31 pmZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff on the whole Greek euro mess.While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.i enjoy reading ZH as much as the next guy, but i do find them to be rather overzealous in posting predictions and viewing events in a very negative lens. There are a variety of scenarios that could unfold here: Greeks agree to some haircut and payment reschedule despite the referendum, the country defaults and possibly restructures on its debt, it abandons the euro, and/or it gets kicked out of the EU completely. there are probably other scenarios too, but in general i don't see why debt default has to mean currency abandonment (sovereign default ought to be independent of currency), nor do i see why Greece would have to leave the trade and open border treaties, even if they completely abandoned the euro?The single currency thing is a flawed concept no matter who says it. It's an attempted coup and trying to force all these completely different and incompatible cultures in the exact same format is a ludicrous concept. Plus wasn't the whole central planning thing supposed to be a flawed concept?I agree about zerohedge and I don't share all of their views, however not many media-agencies seem to be all that interested in showing both sides of the stories in my country. It's also to bad that it's not only zerohedge that's overzealous and too extreme apparently. I completely agree with your points and would have wished the discussion was about how to fix things or make a clean start. But alas that's not the way things seem to be going, both sides are to blame for that in my humble opinion.And if they wanted to blame and haircut somebody they should have done that at the shoulderlevel with all the banks and gamblers who consciously and willingly created this mess. They damn well knew that their loans were toxic and they are trying to make a buck out of the institutions bailing them out of it. That sounds like high-treason to me and people like that deserve a whole lot more terrorist-treament than they are getting. But instead they have their hands way up the euro-politicians asses so they are now moving their mouths.
Quote from: JoeyD on July 09, 2015, 03:37:31 pmZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff on the whole Greek euro mess.While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.i enjoy reading ZH as much as the next guy, but i do find them to be rather overzealous in posting predictions and viewing events in a very negative lens. There are a variety of scenarios that could unfold here: Greeks agree to some haircut and payment reschedule despite the referendum, the country defaults and possibly restructures on its debt, it abandons the euro, and/or it gets kicked out of the EU completely. there are probably other scenarios too, but in general i don't see why debt default has to mean currency abandonment (sovereign default ought to be independent of currency), nor do i see why Greece would have to leave the trade and open border treaties, even if they completely abandoned the euro?
ZeroHedge keeps posting interesting stuff on the whole Greek euro mess.While he does accurately describe the history of the creation of Europe and it's nice that somebody is speaking up inside the EU-madhouse, but I'm not sure Greece will get out of Europe unscathed as easily as that. I'm not aware of massive Greek export products, so they will take a hit either way.
Quote from: chryspano on July 08, 2015, 02:01:02 amI think this a must read...http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/greferendum-shocker-tsipras-intended-lose-and-now-trapped-his-successYeah, interesting to see how this will play out.It could all be part of a genius plan however.On a serious note, what really is messed up is that just about every Joe Schmoe (and even little teeny JoeyD as well) knew this was going to happen right from the start, so the elite did everything in their power to prevent democratic recourse throughout Europe. What really bugs me is that key actors in the formation of the Euro-zone like the Dutch prime minister Kok (and he deserves all the connotation his name receives in English) and Kohl from Germany also knew that the whole concept was broken. They deliberately went through anyway, so that "they" (as in other people) would be forced to come up with a solution.
I think this a must read...http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/greferendum-shocker-tsipras-intended-lose-and-now-trapped-his-success
Interesting discussion! This is only my view today, which could change tomorrow!Allow an ideal free system to evolve from any initial power or wealth distribution, and over time it will naturally approach a power law distribution, where most is in the hands of a minority. But as long as all agents are free and non-violent, this is a reasonable outcome, including the existence of monopolies, that still only survive in the private market as long as they satisfy the needs of other people. In principle, those at the top of the power/wealth distribution are those that have and continue to serve society's demands the best. The resulting spread comes down to differences in skill, effort and unavoidably, luck. That's all in principle. The problem is that an element of those with the most power will always seek to cement that power through depriving the choices of those without it, and will bend and reform the system to meet this purpose. Thus even a theoretically sound system ends up being corrupted by human nature. You can alternatively set up a system where power is maintained more equally, but such a non-equilibrium can only then be sustained by the force of an authority (e.g. socialism), which is then a contradiction that will ultimately be exploited.So power struggles are not a problem of which system, as all systems converge eventually toward abuse of power, which in the end is only corrected by a revolution, with a new optimism, beginning a cycle anew. The technology (e.g. block-chains) only allows different kinds of systems to be tried, but it does not offer any panacea to these basic problems. Different systems will come and go, and the debates over which labels are best will continue. Some systems are less corruptible for longer than others, which is about the best we can aim for.As I see it, the only lasting solution left is not a system at all, but a very human characteristic - learned wisdom.
Quote from: Permie on July 06, 2015, 10:41:52 pmQuoteI agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)I do that too, +5 can get tedious!How do you mean? Could you rephrase?The possibilities of crypto, shared ledger consensus and maybe most importantly the use of incentives I discovered together with bitcoin and bitshares, have rekindled my hope for a solution.
QuoteI agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)I do that too, +5 can get tedious!How do you mean? Could you rephrase?
I agree with you so much, that I have been preemptively depressed about this for decades. But now that I can retroactively agree with you and know I'm not alone, I feel it was worth it.(Sorry, just saying I agree gets a bit boring so I gave it a little swing.)
including the existence of monopolies, that still only survive in the private market as long as they satisfy the needs of other people.
As I see it, the only lasting solution left is not a system at all, but a very human characteristic - learned wisdom.
Auftragstaktik - Mission-type tactics where goals, resources and time constraints are dictated, but lower down command are allowed to independently achieve the aims without micromanagement (correct me if this isn't what you meant).
I would agree with you that democracy could work if power was far more decentralized, except that some brave guys in America tried that and it didn't even last 100 years before their republic got fucked up.Sustaining freedom under such a republic requires the teaching and continued investment on critical thinking. Good luck with that! I reiterate that humans care about themselves, and I believe that a peaceful society will emerge as the summation/aggregate of happy individuals who have the choice to govern their own lives as they see fit.If power is there to be grabbed, then sooner or later a group of people are going to conspire to take it. If there was some way to make the media honest and ensure they tell people the 'truth' then maybe it could work. BM posted an idea for a prediction market based journalism platform (can't find it, all the links are moved :/), that would function like Peertracks but for articles and such. Maybe that is one way to make it work, but such systems of control (republics) aren't essential so why risk it all over again? What would the Founding Fathers do if they could try again? I'm not sure, but I bet they didn't predict just how HUGE an influence the media would gain over us, everyone has a bug in their pocket and a screen telling them what's "cool". That would need to be changed first
During my time in the military I was struck by the concept of Auftragstaktik and I think decentralization like that would be the key to creating a better society on many levels, including business. Unfortunately the Cold-War utterly destroyed that line of thinking and seeing the same fear-mongering from that era being reintroduced I'm not too optimistic about the chances of the concept of decentralization of power catching hold anyti
Quote from: JoeyD on July 06, 2015, 09:00:50 amOne problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.Regulation encourages the rent-seeking behaviour, what we have now is Crony Capitalism or Crapitalism which is more akin to fascism than true capitalism.In today's system, gains are privatised and losses are socialised.Capitalism does not work if businesses are not allowed to fail and pay the consequences of not providing a valuable product or service to the market.The problem of force can be solved with arbitration and reputation based conflict resolution.If your reputation and respect in the market can net you $$$$ in profits for providing a service, then stealing $$ by being dishonest is nowhere near profitable. Crypto and real-time audits with smart contracts go a very long way to ensuring that arbitration is honest.Nearly everyone has a problem with anarchy, as it's been sold by the media as chaos.All markets and people have "problems". The crux of the debate is this: Who can solve problems more efficiently; a small group of "elected" officials (elections are media popularity contests) contained by "regulation" (competition stifling) OR collections of motivated individuals with stake in the game (their savings), bound only by the risk of failure that they are willing to bear.People are STUPID and individuals are SMART. It all comes down to mob psychology. Statism results in an apathetic attitude and dependence on other people. I'll never believe in democracy unless someone can convince me that humans can be motivated to thoroughly research the political parties (hooray, we'll throw a BIGGER party if you vote for us! Don't sweat the debt!) when they are not directly impacted. Political change happens slowly and ain't nobody got time for that. People care what affects them NOW. When you vote in a democratic election there is no way that you can consider society at large, predict the future, evaluate the profit-potetial (or missed opportunities) of each option, conduct interviews to ascertain foreign policy or perform background checks on your potential rulers. You vote for who you (are told) will improve your life the most. "Newspaper says he'll give builders $$$, so I'll vote for him and lobby against anyone offering equal treatment, coz im a builder"Would you want the popular kids at highschool running your life???Capitalism acknowledges this fact and aligns the incentives for an overall outcome of progress and success, as determined by the choices made by individuals within society.This may be a little off-topic but in a forum of a freedom-centric platform I would like others to understand that anarchy and freedom is possible.
One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.
Man I wish I could believe in something like anarcho capitalism, but the more I think about it the less I believe it will work. I don't see any way it prevents monopolies or ultimately prevent the use of force. To be perfectly honest, to me it seems to be a just as easily exploitable divide and conquer stage as any.Somehow I keep ending up back at democracy as the best of the bad solutions, as long as the scale is small enough and you have properly functioning accessible transparent information (supposedly that's what journalism-traders were supposed to be doing originally). While the minority might dislike being forced by the majority, the minority forcing the majority is even worse.One problem I can't seem to solve with capitalism in general is that I rarely see the people who are actually providing or creating the value being the ones to profit. I haven't managed to figure out a capitalistic system that ultimately doesn't end up being in favor of parasites and malignant tumors.
The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)
There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.
Quote from: Frodo on July 05, 2015, 08:20:06 pmQuote from: Akado on July 05, 2015, 07:38:40 pmI'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)I think that the referendum results clearly show that 60% of Greeks fully understand what is going on. They have questioned twice the current status, the underlying system and the flawed economics of austerity measures against the weakest links of European countries. I hope that we do go all the way, I hope that the politicians don't betray Greek people as they have historically have done millions of times and most importantly I hope that people in other countries also wake up and realize what is happening in our world. There are too many shits in this world that have to go once and for all if we want to live peacefully, free and democratically.
Quote from: Akado on July 05, 2015, 07:38:40 pmI'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$I hope you are right about people waking up but I doubt that even a majority of Greeks have understood what is really going on.People tend to take certain things for granted and don't dig deep enough. The fundamentals of society rarely get questioned, which leads to a thinking process that is trapped in boundaries provided by outside. That's why many people are unable to see the flaws of the underlying system and only encounter the symptoms caused by them. And I fear that can lead to simplistic decision making like "let's vote no, because we don't want austerity, because I don't want to pay more taxes and get less pension.". (Which is a very understandable reasoning, but yet a limited view of things.)
I'm pretty excited about this, maybe I'm being naive but this could just bring some change. It could be an important day in the history of europe. Maybe others will slowly start to wake up and follow. I don't know if this is good or bad, it seems bad for greeks, but it also seems something that would happen sooner or later. I'm just happy something new happened and by the fact it seems things can change.meanwhile bitcoin at ~270$
Quote from: Empirical1.2 on July 05, 2015, 07:25:39 pmQuote from: Empirical1.2 on June 16, 2015, 02:57:38 pmLitecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly. Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.LTC up >100% & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously Quote from: Empirical1.2 on June 17, 2015, 02:58:13 pmI believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off. In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners, followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself. The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.Meanwhile.. we have slipped out of the TOP 5 coins and into 6th place under Dash?!http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares/
Quote from: Empirical1.2 on June 16, 2015, 02:57:38 pmLitecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly. Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.LTC up >100% & I hadn't owned a single LiteCoin for ages previously Quote from: Empirical1.2 on June 17, 2015, 02:58:13 pmI believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off. In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners, followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself. The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.
Litecoin is still considered the next crypto-currency should Bitcoin run into problems and is also coming up to a block reward halving which could significantly reduce selling pressure. Combined I wouldn't be surprised to see the LiteCoin rally continue strongly. Capital controls this weekend possibly for Greece could be good for all crypto too if it actually happens this time.
I believe it's the prospect of Greek capital controls, we witnessed a similar situation after Cryprus, crypto-currencies really took off. In terms of percentage gains LTC & DGC could be the big winners, followed by NXT & possibly PPC etc, then Bitcoin itself. The one's that will increase but benefit the least from the Greece effect would be Ripple, BitShares, Stellar, MaidSafe and Ethereum if it's trading.
So you are now left with the frustrating situation where vastly inferior blockchains will rise rapidly in value when centralised currencies have problems despite having almost no development and being extremely costly while BitShares, who is literally blowing them away from a development standpoint and cost comparison has to get it's valuation up the hard way through blood, sweat and tears.