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Messages - Come-from-Beyond

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91
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 05:47:01 pm »
If we come to the problem from another side...

Let's assume that 20 honest delegate is indeed enough to outweigh the other 81 ones. Then we should agree that in situation when 61 delegates vote for no change, 20 delegates vote for scenario A and 20 delegates vote for scenario B we will be completely confused what branch to follow - A or B. Hence this can be used to fragment the network. It's so obvious that I can't even provide a formal proof (trivial things are very hard to prove).

92
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 05:37:20 pm »
But it won't be, because every time an honest delegate's turn comes around, the votes will be included and the longest chain will be an honest chain again.

Blocks of honest delegates will be excluded completely. Bitcoin Selfish Mining attack uses exactly the same trick.

93
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 04:23:27 pm »
Ignoring legitimate blocks makes your chain shorter than including them does...

It's fine as long as your chain is still the longest.

94
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 04:15:14 pm »
How about a penalty for delegates not including transactions that the network has seen for 30 secs and are valid? Penalty would be to deny 2-10 rounds of payment.
Would that help in this case?

How could you know that the network "sees" a transaction?

95
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 04:14:16 pm »
So then what would be the point of doing all this?

The point is just to show that power that controls election will stay on the top forever. This is what we observe in a lot of dictatorship countries where elections are faked.

96
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 04:03:48 pm »
You're missing the point here. The fork is created by some delegates ignoring transactions and blocks that include votes that take away their power.  The other fork therefore includes those votes. Therefore the honest fork automatically heals itself, and the dishonest fork cannot.

The other fork is shorter, why is it accepted as legit?

97
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 03:44:34 pm »
How will their chain be shorter, when they have 101 delegates and the attackers only have 51?  The attackers can't replace the honest delegates without shareholder support, so their branch will be crippled.

This is why the title of this thread is "Consensus on the list of delegates". Consensus can be achieved only via blockchain. If 51 delegates control information that is stored on the blockchain then there is no a way to replace them with other delegates in a reliable manner. You inevitably come to necessity to make a centralized decision.

98
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 03:39:56 pm »
Then users will swarm the boards wondering why their transactions went through.  The community will discover they've been attacked, and will roll back / fork the network to vote in a new set of delegates.  The attackers attack will have been for naught.  Short term, this attack will give BitShares a minor black eye, but long term it will show how resilient the network is and there will be no more incentives to perform this attack again.

This won't work for DACs. They can't read forums. A good solution ought to be automatic.

99
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 03:18:35 pm »
1 delegate can ignore blocks from the other 100 and thus fork the network without bribing anyone, but that doesn't gain him anything.

51 delegates all ignoring blocks from the other 50 doesn't gain them anything either. Their fork will have 51 delegates, but the honest fork will quickly replace them and have 101 delegates.

Chain of 1 delegate will be very short and ignored.

51 delegates ignoring blocks from other 50 get the bribery money. How the honest fork can win if its chain is shorter?

100
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 03:15:53 pm »
This also assumes that our non anonymous delegates are willing to harm their own reputation and risk their own investments for peanuts.

They won't harm their reputation because you can't prove that they saw a transaction but decided to ignore it.

101
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 03:14:03 pm »
I don't get why this is not a classical 51% attack?

It's like 51% but without chain reorg.

102
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 01:52:56 pm »
The point is that being "rational" he thinks that all 101 delegates would immediately accept payment from the smart contract, and reject any new voting transactions that would replace any delegate.  He's basically asserting that the BitShares network would be unable to find even 1 out of the 101 delegates who would refuse to sabotage the network if offered a 1% pay raise as a bribe to sabotage it:

Not all 101. 50 is enough, because with 1 briber this group gets majority and can ignore blocks of other 50 delegates.

103
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 10:44:22 am »
So what happens if less than 101 people pay into the smart-contract? The smart contract still pays to all 101 delegates?

Even 1 person is enough. The SC does pay to all 101 delegates. We can make it worse if some shareholders want to keep delegates the voted-for in top 101. These shareholders just need to send money to the balance of the SC.

104
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 09:05:21 am »
You don't need a smart contract. Delegates get all payed already. Depending on their payrate 0%-100%, they get x% of 50BTS per block that is signed.
That also leads to an incentive to stay honest.

I don't see how a smart-contract would change anything. BTW, who pays for the smart-contract?

I used the smart contract to get a cryptographically reliable bribery. 0.4 BTS is a nice bonus to 50 BTS, isn't it? Any delegate can afford to pay this amount to others and still keep 50 - 0.4*100 = 10 BTS. Being a dishonest is still profitable if none of the delegates can be kicked off.

A delegate that wants to stay in top 101 forever pays for the smart contract. This can be done via a sockpuppet account.

105
General Discussion / Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 02, 2015, 08:43:43 am »
Thank you for your replies guys. The problem is becoming more and more interesting.

Imagine that someone created a smart contract that pays money to every delegate as long as none of the delegates is voted out. In this case every delegate knows that he will get money with 100% probability. It's also impossible to know who is bribing, it can be any or even several delegates. The shareholders can't abandon this fork because even if all the delegates are replaced with new ones then the smart contract will keep paying money.

I showed how bribery can be reliable, unavoidable and briber undetectable and there is no even need to keep the fact of bribery in secret. Several honest delegates can be excluded by dishonest ones by pretending that their blocks don't reach the next in the queue. Or am I wrong and blocks can't be ignored?

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