BitShares Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 04:41:00 pm

Title: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 04:41:00 pm
We need to increase our bitUSD position by $10,000 as soon as possible.
All of our choices to do that, amount to paying a premium of ~10% right now.

I'd like to get that cost down if possible, so I'm running this thread as an experiment.

I think the markets can handle $2k right now no problem.

I say this because the total market cap of bitUSD is around $190,000 and $10k is about 5% of that.
Supply and demand curves project that if we try to move this through at market it will drive the price to nearly $2.00  But moving $2k would only push it another 5%.  This is called a bullwhip or a whale tail splash.  That wouldn't be so bad in and of itself, except that the sudden vacuum caused by pushing this much through all at once, might cause a collapse later if we aren't careful.

So to sum up, we will be making orders of about $2k directly through the open market, but the remaining $8k would very likely to push the market too far against us.

Sounds like we need a submarine to safely ride under any resultant the waves, this is my submarine.
 
For the next 24hrs, we will pay you a premium on your bitUSD of 5%.
This means if you send us $100 bitUSD you will get back $105 USD cash.

Send the bitUSD to users "payqwik" or "gemspace",  then update this thread and you will receive a PM, requesting settlement details that are necessary to complete the transaction.

I am more than willing to do escrow with any forum mod in the USA or Canada, blockchain is totally open so the bitUSD side is pretty easy to verify, however we will need to ensure funds release within 24hrs. 

Limits...
If you have a Bank of America personal account we can fund you immediately through direct account to account transfer for any amount up to $2000 USD.  That is the easiest and preferred method since it's simple, quick and painless.  If you have a business account or you bank anywhere other than Bank of America, then clearing will be via a standard bank wire. 

We can post an immediate wire for you but will only do so for amounts in excess of $1000 (the fee for an instant wire is $25, we will eat that fee). 

For amounts lower than $1000 it will be traditional wire and the full clearing time will depend on your bank.  The minimum wire size is $100, if you send less than $100 bitUSD we will just refund it directly unless you tell us before hand that it is part of a batch.

Now you may be asking "Why bitUSD and why now?".
The primary answer is that several days ago we went on a hiring spree https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15689.0.html
We hired several people from within the community and agreed to pay them upfront for their first month's efforts in bitUSD.

We launch the first leg of our project on Friday and I need everyone in position, which means I need to get payment out to them as promised, all of which was in bitUSD.

I'm inviting all that were offered positions into this thread to confirm. ;)
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: luckybit on April 15, 2015, 05:23:26 pm
Confirmed and accepted with some conditions.

1) First you have to reveal the identity of yourself and your company to the community before I can accept anything. It could be risky for me to accept money from an unvetted source with limited history in the community.
2) You need a functioning website.
3) You need to offer proof that your company exists, is legally incorporated, etc.

If all of these steps are taken then I'll work with your company but only after these steps have been taken. I would like the community to vet you and the company you work for so that the community can trust your legitimacy. Other companies have done this process before so it's not too big of a deal.


Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on April 15, 2015, 05:25:22 pm
Exciting stuff. You may want to get this thread moved to general discussion for more activity though; I think the trading sub-forum has become more "speculation"-related than anything.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 05:50:55 pm
+5% Confirmed and accepted.

He is one of 2 community liason's recently brought onto gemspaces.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: lil_jay890 on April 15, 2015, 06:05:02 pm
I'm sure these guys are all BTS bulls.  Why not offer to pay them $100 worth of bts?  It would be much easier to aquire through BTER, BTC38, or Metaexchange and they could always use the internal exchange if they wanted to convert to bitUSD.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: Ander on April 15, 2015, 06:20:12 pm
I'm sure these guys are all BTS bulls.  Why not offer to pay them $100 worth of bts?

Because there seems to be a rule where every project which wants to help Bitshares must screw over the BTS price.  Moonstone?  Gotta sell BTS and raise $130k worth of BTC.

This?  Couldnt possibly just buy BTS with their money and use it to short themselves some bitUSD.  Nope, that might help the BTS price. 
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: vlight on April 15, 2015, 06:39:33 pm
Because there seems to be a rule where every project which wants to help Bitshares must screw over the BTS price.  Moonstone?  Gotta sell BTS and raise $130k worth of BTC.

This?  Couldnt possibly just buy BTS with their money and use it to short themselves some bitUSD.  Nope, that might help the BTS price.

Maybe they do not know they can
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 06:52:19 pm
I'm sure these guys are all BTS bulls.  Why not offer to pay them $100 worth of bts?

Because there seems to be a rule where every project which wants to help Bitshares must screw over the BTS price.  Moonstone?  Gotta sell BTS and raise $130k worth of BTC.

This?  Couldnt possibly just buy BTS with their money and use it to short themselves some bitUSD.  Nope, that might help the BTS price.

I'm sorry moonstone isn't holding BTS.  I can't speak for them, but if they're heavy into BTC they got slammed in the past few days and I don't know how you can continue on in a business with that much volatility.

BTS fluctuates in price, but 1 bitUSD is backed directly by BTS and yet it stays pegged to a dollar.  The dollar is what we agreed to pay our people in, this limits our forex exposure risk. bitUSD is a valid way of paying them their USD.  They can convert it to BTS if they want to and I highly recommend that they do, but that is their choice, not ours.

With what we are doing, we expect the BTS price to more than double in the coming months.
Go back to my original hello world post and see if I've ever said anything different, even from day one.

Believe me when I say that if we can't raise the actual bitUSD to do this, we will pay them in BTS directly if they agree to it, or failing that we will use our reserves to short some bitUSD into existence.  We could also just add them to payroll and do direct deposit, but we would like to get everyone paid before Friday.

Understand that we are trying really hard not to splash around in the market here and cause unneeded volatility.
Volatility is what will kill your currency, not price.

Our existing BTS reserves are mostly earmarked for other purposes at this time and moving it into anything else would make it harder to move quickly on things we need to do later.

Also, I'm not sure if you've noticed this or not, but it's not exactly easy to buy even plain old BTS right now. 
Every solution we've looked at including buying BTC and selling it for BTS, includes an unsatisfactory premium and we  we're here to do business not to burn through our cash reserves,.

We are working on a solution that includes building out a gateway to enable buying & selling BTS via ATMs.
But even if it were up today, if we patronized that ourselves, then we would be buying from ourselves, which would be pointless.

You have a point about BTS being seriously undervalued at the moment.  I agree.
If you want to sell us $1.00 worth of BTS at current rates and get $1.05 USD in return that would be fine as well.
What I've stated though is the limit of our offer, anything more expensive than that, and other methods become better choices.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: Volker on April 15, 2015, 07:23:00 pm
I was recently offered a job as community liaison by tsaishen, but I'm strongly recommending against this. Buying bitUSD for a premium is a huge waste of money.

1. If you have BTS, then you can create bitUSD by shorting bitUSD and then buying your own shorts. I'd expect you to have lots of BTS in reserve if you expected your activities to double the price of BTS.
2. If you don't have BTS, then you could offer your would-be employees BTC. I would accept that if I'd received that offer.
3. You could've offered to pay us would-be employees by Bank of America bank transfer, Western Union, Paypal instead of involving other forum members. Again, I would've accepted.

It's troubling that none of these ideas, which would've saved you money, hadn't occurred to you.
I'm going to reject your job offer for failure to satisfy my sole condition of acceptance.

To everyone else:
Do not send any money.

Please don't contact me again.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 07:58:09 pm
I was recently offered a job as community liaison by tsaishen, but I'm strongly recommending against this. Buying bitUSD for a premium is a huge waste of money.

1. If you have BTS, then you can create bitUSD by shorting bitUSD and then buying your own shorts. I'd expect you to have lots of BTS in reserve if you expected your activities to double the price of BTS.
2. If you don't have BTS, then you could offer your would-be employees BTC. I would accept that if I'd received that offer.
3. You could've offered to pay us would-be employees by Bank of America bank transfer, Western Union, Paypal instead of involving other forum members. Again, I would've accepted.

It's troubling that none of these ideas, which would've saved you money, hadn't occurred to you.
I'm going to reject your job offer for failure to satisfy my sole condition of acceptance.

To everyone else:
Do not send any money.

Please don't contact me again.

Thank you.

That was unexpected and seems very out of character. 
I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to contact via PM before such a loud quit.

No one else seemed interested in the idea of BTC or a fixed BTS amount, which is why I never brought it up to you. 
I didn't realize you were in the US and banking with the big banks or would have offered the US wire transfer thing, that's actually a lot cheaper. 
Just didn't seem your style, guess I made a mistake there.

I am mostly just confused because you stated specifically you wanted to be paid in bitUSD, my understanding was that this WAS your sole condition of acceptance, so I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Shorting to create bitUSD didn't fit with our risk model, among other things it ties up BTS liquidity that is needed for other things.
As I already stated, we are trying to limit forex exposure as much as possible.

I offered you the position because you had insight that I found valuable. 
The position of community liaison is specifically there to help the community out with questions etc, it's essential and your insight could have played a key role.

It's your choice though, this rolls with or without you, just wish it was with.
Best of luck in all your future endeavors!
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on April 15, 2015, 08:14:40 pm
While I agree that Volker is voicing his disagreement the wrong way, it does seem kind of dangerous for community members to send BitUSD to an unknown account and hope you'll follow through with your  +5% promise. Probably would be safer & cheaper to just pay everyone in BTC (or PayPal/wire transfer, if possible). If they're worried about short-term volatility there should be no reason they can't cash bitcoin out immediately to fiat (or use it to buy BitUSD themselves, if they're so inclined). Paying in BitUSD at this stage of the game with no real fiat on/off-ramps in place just sucks money away in fees.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: zerosum on April 15, 2015, 08:19:36 pm
I was recently offered a job as community liaison by tsaishen, but I'm strongly recommending against this. Buying bitUSD for a premium is a huge waste of money.

1. If you have BTS, then you can create bitUSD by shorting bitUSD and then buying your own shorts. I'd expect you to have lots of BTS in reserve if you expected your activities to double the price of BTS.
2. If you don't have BTS, then you could offer your would-be employees BTC. I would accept that if I'd received that offer.
3. You could've offered to pay us would-be employees by Bank of America bank transfer, Western Union, Paypal instead of involving other forum members. Again, I would've accepted.

It's troubling that none of these ideas, which would've saved you money, hadn't occurred to you.
I'm going to reject your job offer for failure to satisfy my sole condition of acceptance.

To everyone else:
Do not send any money.

Please don't contact me again.

Thank you.
I agree. Stinks from a mile. Lot's of red flags for my liking!
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: clayop on April 15, 2015, 08:26:56 pm
Here's an alternative to bitUSD. Why don't you use bitCNY temporarily? It now have a great liquidity, about $6,000 (1.4 mil BTS)
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: jsidhu on April 15, 2015, 08:39:15 pm
i dont think its a scam.. seems pretty legit.. i may consider to develop their wordpress site. Time constraints are pretty tight though.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: Ander on April 15, 2015, 08:49:08 pm
tsaishen, if you cannot acquire bitUSD right now with which to pay people, why waste 5% of your funds trying to pay them in bitUSD?  Why not pay in something else, like BTS, BTC, or fiat? 

I know that we want to use bitUSD, but if its not working right now because of the market matching bug, and youre going to have to pay a premium to do it, why not pay with something else?
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: zerosum on April 15, 2015, 08:51:47 pm
i dont think its a scam.. seems pretty legit.. i may consider to develop their wordpress site. Time constraints are pretty tight though.
what seem legit to you?

The urgency to send money to someone?

The urgency to pay upfront by Friday and starting to look for funds on Wednesday?

The 2 times repeated nonsense statement - "We do not want to tie funds in bts for long period of time, but we are perfectly fine to kiss goodbye same funds and send them right away?" Cause this is the reason they do not want to short the bitUSD to themselves... tying up funds....but they are OK to send/spend same fund in USD... with a 5% premium never the less????
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: jsidhu on April 15, 2015, 08:54:44 pm
i dont think its a scam.. seems pretty legit.. i may consider to develop their wordpress site. Time constraints are pretty tight though.
what seem legit to you?

The urgency to send money to someone?

The urgency to pay upfront by Friday and starting to look for funds on Wednesday?

The 2 times repeated nonsense statement - "We do not want to tie funds in bts for long period of time, but we are perfectly fine to kiss goodbye same funds and send them right away?" Cause this is the reason they do not want to short the bitUSD to themselves... tying up funds....but they are OK to send/spend same fund in USD... with a 5% premium never the less????

I just meant that they seem like an honest startup.. its a good idea.. I got the rundown via PM... however not sure about the premium they are paying.. i know they want to roll it out very quickly.. but maybe speaks more about their lack of organization or preparation... perhaps they can push dates back so it can happen properly.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: fuzzy on April 15, 2015, 09:46:36 pm
i dont think its a scam.. seems pretty legit.. i may consider to develop their wordpress site. Time constraints are pretty tight though.
what seem legit to you?

The urgency to send money to someone?

The urgency to pay upfront by Friday and starting to look for funds on Wednesday?

The 2 times repeated nonsense statement - "We do not want to tie funds in bts for long period of time, but we are perfectly fine to kiss goodbye same funds and send them right away?" Cause this is the reason they do not want to short the bitUSD to themselves... tying up funds....but they are OK to send/spend same fund in USD... with a 5% premium never the less????

I just meant that they seem like an honest startup.. its a good idea.. I got the rundown via PM... however not sure about the premium they are paying.. i know they want to roll it out very quickly.. but maybe speaks more about their lack of organization or preparation... perhaps they can push dates back so it can happen properly.
+5%
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 10:16:50 pm
I was recently offered a job as community liaison by tsaishen, but I'm strongly recommending against this. Buying bitUSD for a premium is a huge waste of money.

1. If you have BTS, then you can create bitUSD by shorting bitUSD and then buying your own shorts. I'd expect you to have lots of BTS in reserve if you expected your activities to double the price of BTS.
2. If you don't have BTS, then you could offer your would-be employees BTC. I would accept that if I'd received that offer.
3. You could've offered to pay us would-be employees by Bank of America bank transfer, Western Union, Paypal instead of involving other forum members. Again, I would've accepted.

It's troubling that none of these ideas, which would've saved you money, hadn't occurred to you.
I'm going to reject your job offer for failure to satisfy my sole condition of acceptance.

To everyone else:
Do not send any money.

Please don't contact me again.

Thank you.
I agree. Stinks from a mile. Lot's of red flags for my liking!

I'm failing to see a red flag here, please enlighten me what seems wrong?  Be as specific as possible.  Back your claim, I'll gladly talk about it. 

I think you maybe missed where I asked a forum mod to escrow this? 
I'm literally willing to drop the entire USD cash amount into ByteMaster, or whoever's account upfront assuming they are in the USA and with a bank I've heard of.

I said all of that in my initial posting. 

In fact did I even post the address to send bitUSD to?

You guys are tearing this apart like you think we've got some scam going. 
As though I would have some interest in walking off with your $10k after hiring from the community and paying them up front. 
The amount needed is now down to $3k, since thankfully this isn't the only place I made offers.

I dunno, maybe there is something wrong with bitassets that make them unsuitable for cash transfer and payment purposes for larger amounts and if that's the case, I think we need to step back a minute and seriously consider the role bitshares plays in our larger business plan. 

BTW Volker you're released from NDA and since I know you'll be reading this you have my permission to talk about it.  We aren't in a silence period anymore, we just need to snap these last few pieces into place to make it work. 

Anyone else that we've talked it over with, is free to talk too, just censor the URL's since the sites aren't standing on their own yet and won't handle traffic until I can get back to it, which I can't do while I'm trying to get payroll settled.

So here's what I think.  I think part of the problem may be confusion in what is actually on offer. 
The more I read read volker's quit, the more I realize he read the headline and missed the offer.

I'm not offering you 5% over market on your BitShares or even 5% over market on your bitUSD, 
That would be insane and stupid. 

I'm offering 5% over the thing you're trying to peg it to, USD. 

Right now it's trading at $1.11 according to coinmarket cap. 
You would be selling for $1.05, cash USD no fees, it's a 5% loss for you yes, but the advantage is you get cash in the bank, no other fees.
You take a small loss against market, but win the day over in the fee savings column.
 
It's a compromise.  We don't want to buy at market, there isn't enough volume to support it.  You want to cash out (or you wouldn't be reading this far), but want to get the best price for your assets.
 
But let's step back a minute and assume I bought BTC and converted straight to BTS, which seems to be something people missed in my first posting when I said "We think the market can handle maybe $2k right now".

The CEO owns a network of ATMs and I think the mark to market is ~5%.
$10k USD comes out as $9.5k USD worth of BTC, alright well there's $500 gone, but...

Then we try to find that much BTS liquid, somewhere...???

Move it to BTER? 
https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd
https://bter.com/trade/BTS_BTC
That's what like $500 worth?

Bit38?
http://www.btc38.com/trade_en.html?mk_type=btc&btc38_trade_coin_name=bts
Getting closer, the entire 24hr volume was 9BTC or about $2000, but since that's both buys and sells, depth is probably half.

Metaexchange?
https://metaexchange.info/markets/BTS/BTC
There's about another slightly less than a BTC worth.

Shapeshift.io?
Looks like another 2.5 BTC if I'm quick with it.

Are there even any other exchanges where these pairs trade yet?
Total liquid market is WAY less than $10k, as I said before, we might be able to get $2k of it this way.

Ok but forget all that market reality stuff.
Let's assume we did manage to acquire that much BTS that we could apply to payroll?
Well to create $10k bitUSD would mean tying up $30k worth of BTS through shorts, it's not a 1:1 mapping.  Also I'm putting investor funds at risk in what would really be a speculative investment, a speculative investment that needs to ride how long?
 
More importantly, those BTS are actually spoken for.  They're happily sitting in little slots in a spreadsheet waiting to be called to action.  If I shorted bitUSD into existence, then you're talking financial malfeasance. 
We aren't speculators.  You want to speculate fine, short it to death and sell it to me, guaranteed sale for you.  Not even asking you to trust me.

All I'm doing is easing the payroll burden, and pushing around a bit of liquidity until this thing launches so there is room for it to grow.
When the time comes, I need to about to pay 15, pardon me, 14 people.  Of those, 7 or excuse me 6 are from this forum. 
But most of the staff are not in the USA.

Imagine if I just handled payroll the other ways you guys are recommending.

PayPal - 2.5%  $1.025 per dollar cost (admittedly it's the receiver that pays this cost).  This means you get $0.975 per dollar for your efforts as a contractor (employee, whatever we're calling it). 
But then we both have to deal with PayPal.  Not sure about you, but I've not liked paypal for a very long time.
You like your funds frozen for dabbling in crypto?  Ok, Let's give it a shot! 
I don't personally take paypal because the reversal rate is horrific, and I dunno about you, but I really like being able to access my funds on demand. 

The business doesn't mind paypal though, and we do have a paypal verified business account that is 5 years old and sees $50k per month in turnover, so it's no sweat to pay a contractor that way.  I just wouldn't force-ably subject them to it.

Western Union, minimum $5 cost to send $500 is ~$50 if you're doing it internationally. There are serious limits such as only sending a certain number of transfers in a day.  One guy getting paid, pretty much taps this out unless he has a WU business account setup already.  Also slogging down to a WU location and standing in line for half an hour just to fill out forms and deal with the rest of the hassle is not the best use of anyone's time.

Bank wires are cheap, in fact we can do them for free with a 5 business day delay.  Immediate transfer is $25, but it does show up at BofA immediately, other banks it might take a day or two.

I can do ACH direct deposits for $0.50 regardless of size.  To do it, you as an employee or contractor would need to have a bank in the USA, and I would need those banking details as well as regular forms that need to be filed such as a copy of ID & social security number.  But the process is painless.  I just input the details, hit send and you see your money in 3 to 5 business days.  Doesn't work at all if you're not from the USA though.

All options were on the table, but as I stated in my original postings. 

We're looking for people who want to work with us on a project that deals in bitAssets and then be paid in bitAssets.  Specifically bitUSD, because theoretically at least, 1 bitUSD should always remain right around a dollar.  This makes bookkeeping painless and simple.  I don't want to have to book-keep this past launch day.  The beancounter can handle counting the beans.  For him to take that task over, someone needs to get all the books in order first.  That's all I'm doing here.

Thanks for those who participated in this discussion so far.  It's provided valuable insight into the community that we are trying to be part of.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 10:29:28 pm
i dont think its a scam.. seems pretty legit.. i may consider to develop their wordpress site. Time constraints are pretty tight though.
what seem legit to you?

The urgency to send money to someone?

The urgency to pay upfront by Friday and starting to look for funds on Wednesday?

The 2 times repeated nonsense statement - "We do not want to tie funds in bts for long period of time, but we are perfectly fine to kiss goodbye same funds and send them right away?" Cause this is the reason they do not want to short the bitUSD to themselves... tying up funds....but they are OK to send/spend same fund in USD... with a 5% premium never the less????

Ahh I understand now!  Thanks for clarifying your position.  No your mistake is in thinking that all of the funds the same, they are not.  They are in different places, they are earmarked to serve different purposes and have actual definitive costs to move and shift around.

I realize it's hard to follow and for that I apologize.  Here it is in the simplest form I can make it.

We are willing to pay up to $0.05 per dollar to move funds into a position by Friday, that we can then use to cover upfront payroll obligations.
We owe this up front because we promised several people, including people on this forum who can in fact verify these statements, that we would pay them in USD upfront, on or before day of launch in order to come work with us.  This was the sum of the offer.

Beyond that point, the offer is no longer as attractive as the myriad of other options that are in front of us. 
This option though slightly more expensive than paypal or ach, does build goodwill with the community and helps us to advertise our business.
We pay slightly more than putting them on regular payroll, but in exchange we get some of the people who understand bitshares the best, who have been here the longest, to come along and try to make something great.  Prove the naysayers wrong.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: zerosum on April 15, 2015, 10:38:51 pm
Quote
I agree. Stinks from a mile. Lot's of red flags for my liking!

I'm failing to see a red flag here, please enlighten me what seems wrong?  Be as specific as possible.  Back your claim, I'll gladly talk about it. 


Should I quote my other post in this very thread?

Additionally why do you have to urgently pay upfront by Friday? What are those jobs that require upfront payment? Why did you start looking for money (from somebody else never the less) on Wednesday if it is so important to pay by Friday?
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: Ander on April 15, 2015, 10:44:43 pm
Thanks tsaishen for the explanation.
I agree that if Bytemaster or some other trusted person provides escrow for the trade then it cannot be a scam.  (I didnt read it as a scam, but I understand how people who see "send me money and i'll send you back bonus bitUSD" could see that as a big red flag if they didnt see the escrow part).


When you get negative reactions about from people here right now you should remember that most of us here got burned hard over the past couple months, so there is a lot of anger.  Just general anger at everything, not directed at anyone in particular.  Anger looking for something to blame, regardless of whether that was the cause of the pain.

There is also the feeling that various projects in the Bitshares ecosystem have promised us all rewards in the future, but has asked for donations in the present, such as the Notes IPO, the PLAY IPO, and the Moonstone wallet.  With all of these things competing for our dollars and bitcoins, people just arent buying BTS, or they are selling off BTS to get dollars/bitcoins to put into these IPOs and investments. 

It feels like the community in general has been completely trashing the BTS price in order to raise funds for all the projects people want to run. 

At some point, many of us want to scream: "If you want Bitshares to do well and attract people, stop blowing all your money on all this stuff and f*cking buy some BTS already.  That way maybe we can stop the downtrend so that crypto investors will be interested in Bitshares again, it wont just look like something that is dying and goes down every single day". 


Your post looked like more of that to me.  "Hey, lets sell some BTS to get fiat so I can send you USD and get extra bitUSD in return!" 

I would think that the people you are hiring are bulls and would probably want BTS right now.  I would react very positively if you said "Hey, how about we spend $X000 buying up a lot of BTS and we pay you guys in BTS (based on pre-agred upon BTS values that we paid for it)".

Trying to use bitUSD is great, but at some point given how severely the price of BTS has fallen, we just want someone who says they believe in the project to go buy some BTS and help get this moving in the right direction again.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 15, 2015, 11:19:37 pm
Quote
I agree. Stinks from a mile. Lot's of red flags for my liking!

I'm failing to see a red flag here, please enlighten me what seems wrong?  Be as specific as possible.  Back your claim, I'll gladly talk about it. 


Should I quote my other post in this very thread?

Additionally why do you have to urgently pay upfront by Friday? What are those jobs that require upfront payment? Why did you start looking for money (from somebody else never the less) on Wednesday if it is so important to pay by Friday?

@tonyk2
Well the original intent was originally to pay everyone at month's end.
Then when the time came to talk about pay, it became clear that these guys would like to be paid upfront rather than in arrears.
And you know what?  I think that's fair, it's a high risk endeavor, things are super busy and if a mistake were made with payroll it could be completely devestating to our reputation.

Also no need to quote your old post, I was writing the last post when you clarified.  I re-read and then posted my clarification, so I think we're on the same page now.

I want you to know that I find your comments and skepticism helpful. 

It's hard, sitting here so close to everything to understand what the community sees.  You have only been given a very limited view as to what is coming.  I'm not the worlds best communicator, and chatting on a forum is not the best avenue to communicate a bigger picture.
Operating under silence hasn't helped, but on the other hand now we're this close to launch we can start to speak much more freely. 

Now, interestingly enough I'm not sure this thread is needed anymore.  It was predicated on the assumption that moving that much of the market could cause it to destabilize.  Instability is what will kill your currency, not low price.

clayop pointed out https://blocktrades.us/ which does have enough liquidity to clear the remainder of what we have left.
So thanks for that!

**updated to reflect the proper name of the person I was speaking to**
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 16, 2015, 12:07:16 am
Thanks tsaishen for the explanation.
I agree that if Bytemaster or some other trusted person provides escrow for the trade then it cannot be a scam.  (I didnt read it as a scam, but I understand how people who see "send me money and i'll send you back bonus bitUSD" could see that as a big red flag if they didnt see the escrow part).


When you get negative reactions about from people here right now you should remember that most of us here got burned hard over the past couple months, so there is a lot of anger.  Just general anger at everything, not directed at anyone in particular.  Anger looking for something to blame, regardless of whether that was the cause of the pain.

There is also the feeling that various projects in the Bitshares ecosystem have promised us all rewards in the future, but has asked for donations in the present, such as the Notes IPO, the PLAY IPO, and the Moonstone wallet.  With all of these things competing for our dollars and bitcoins, people just arent buying BTS, or they are selling off BTS to get dollars/bitcoins to put into these IPOs and investments. 

It feels like the community in general has been completely trashing the BTS price in order to raise funds for all the projects people want to run. 

At some point, many of us want to scream: "If you want Bitshares to do well and attract people, stop blowing all your money on all this stuff and f*cking buy some BTS already.  That way maybe we can stop the downtrend so that crypto investors will be interested in Bitshares again, it wont just look like something that is dying and goes down every single day". 


Your post looked like more of that to me.  "Hey, lets sell some BTS to get fiat so I can send you USD and get extra bitUSD in return!" 

I would think that the people you are hiring are bulls and would probably want BTS right now.  I would react very positively if you said "Hey, how about we spend $X000 buying up a lot of BTS and we pay you guys in BTS (based on pre-agred upon BTS values that we paid for it)".

Trying to use bitUSD is great, but at some point given how severely the price of BTS has fallen, we just want someone who says they believe in the project to go buy some BTS and help get this moving in the right direction again.

Just seeing this now Ander.  Thanks, I get it.  I know I come off as completely clueless sometimes, but I've been burned by crypto scams in the past so I know better too.  That's why I ask for absolutely no trust, and just a solid intermediary on these things.  Nothing we are doing requires any level of trust between strangers, it's the beauty of the tech we're using.
 
We have an advantage in that most of what we need sits before us.  It's pieces of puzzle sitting on a floor.  We've figured out how all the edges line up and now it's time to snap all of those pieces together and see what that puzzle looks like.

I just need to pay the puzzle do'ers before they're willing to start ;)
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on April 16, 2015, 01:55:47 am
Thanks for clearing things up tsaishen. I for one can't wait to hear what you guys have in store. I've always thought that your postings were legit; seems pretty obvious to me from your posts that you're serious about this whole thing. I mean come on, you even offered escrow in your OP; it's ridiculous to see a bunch of community members immediately jump down your throat and scream scam without hearing you out first. You clearly have big plans for BTS and should be welcome with open arms, especially considering the rough past few months.

Just remember that the cries of a few outspoken community members are not at all representative of the community at large. Myself and I'm sure many others are eagerly awaiting to hear more.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: luckybit on April 16, 2015, 02:08:53 am
Here's an alternative to bitUSD. Why don't you use bitCNY temporarily? It now have a great liquidity, about $6,000 (1.4 mil BTS)
+5% +5%

To be honest I don't know whether or not it's a scam but the only way to find out is to give them the opportunity to earn our trust.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: luckybit on April 16, 2015, 02:22:28 am

@tonyk2
Well the original intent was originally to pay everyone at month's end.
Then when the time came to talk about pay, it became clear that these guys would like to be paid upfront rather than in arrears.

I never demanded to be paid up front. In fact it was surprising to me to be offered to be paid so soon.

Just putting it out there that not everyone demanded up front pay. As for the BitUSD I'm not totally against it because BitUSD exists to be used but at the same time BTC does seem like it could be easier for most people at this particular time because BitUSD is having some liquidity problems.


Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: fuzzy on April 16, 2015, 02:35:28 am
Thanks for clearing things up tsaishen. I for one can't wait to hear what you guys have in store. I've always thought that your postings were legit; seems pretty obvious to me from your posts that you're serious about this whole thing. I mean come on, you even offered escrow in your OP; it's ridiculous to see a bunch of community members immediately jump down your throat and scream scam without hearing you out first. You clearly have big plans for BTS and should be welcome with open arms, especially considering the rough past few months.

Just remember that the cries of a few outspoken community members are not at all representative of the community at large. Myself and I'm sure many others are eagerly awaiting to hear more.

I'm working behind the scenes to coordinate a hangout for tsaishen to answer any questions/concerns.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: oldman on April 16, 2015, 03:54:55 am
Thanks for clearing things up tsaishen. I for one can't wait to hear what you guys have in store. I've always thought that your postings were legit; seems pretty obvious to me from your posts that you're serious about this whole thing. I mean come on, you even offered escrow in your OP; it's ridiculous to see a bunch of community members immediately jump down your throat and scream scam without hearing you out first. You clearly have big plans for BTS and should be welcome with open arms, especially considering the rough past few months.

Just remember that the cries of a few outspoken community members are not at all representative of the community at large. Myself and I'm sure many others are eagerly awaiting to hear more.

I'm working behind the scenes to coordinate a hangout for tsaishen to answer any questions/concerns.

This is great news, thank you Fuzzy.

I'm disappointed in the community's reception of tsaishen thus far; since when are folks guilty until proven innocent?

How about we give tsaishen the benefit of the doubt and support his/her efforts in whatever way we can... until given a good reason to do otherwise.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: zerosum on April 16, 2015, 04:35:23 am
Hm...
I wonder ...

Quote
"it's ridiculous to see a bunch of community members immediately jump down your throat and scream scam "
Why the overreaction? I for one never used the word scam. I just said a few red flags... and there are a few as everyone can see.

I still do not believe anyone openly demanding - "Pay upfront or I am out." Such request will speak volumes for the project and/or the entity proposing it. But yet it was presented as a demand by member of your  community.

Also the language ("your community"; "your coin", "your (bitUSD) product") is quite disturbing coming from someone supposedly driving the price two fold with its project per his own estimate.

...anyway call it 'screaming scam by few outspoken members' if you are paid upfront to do so, but that is what is on the publicly known surface of this thing.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: jsidhu on April 16, 2015, 04:45:34 am
Lets let him make his proposal its his thread let it be... Passion is good
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: zerosum on April 16, 2015, 06:02:40 am
Thanks for clearing things up tsaishen. I for one can't wait to hear what you guys have in store. I've always thought that your postings were legit; seems pretty obvious to me from your posts that you're serious about this whole thing. I mean come on, you even offered escrow in your OP; it's ridiculous to see a bunch of community members immediately jump down your throat and scream scam without hearing you out first. You clearly have big plans for BTS and should be welcome with open arms, especially considering the rough past few months.

Just remember that the cries of a few outspoken community members are not at all representative of the community at large. Myself and I'm sure many others are eagerly awaiting to hear more.

I'm working behind the scenes to coordinate a hangout for tsaishen to answer any questions/concerns.

This is great news, thank you Fuzzy.

I'm disappointed in the community's reception of tsaishen thus far; since when are folks guilty until proven innocent?

How about we give tsaishen the benefit of the doubt and support his/her efforts in whatever way we can... until given a good reason to do otherwise.

Well, that is another thing.
Somehow appearing on "The fuzz show" makes any project legit. Quite the opposite in my recollection.


I sorry to post that but:

- there was the 'NHZ' project - They were going to be a DPOS chain and drop on us or whatever. Well we did not hear from them ever after...and during the show - for the lack of mic. ....the usual excuse...

- this one is semi-relevant but... there was the great destroyer of BTS.... the alphaBar guy... fuzz show made him legit for just appearing there....he launched the DPOS PTS and faded in black.

- Open source hardware anyone? Great idea.... not much news as of late. I believe the guy is hard at work on the hardware wallet for BTS! I have no doubt this is exactly what he does right now :)

- and there was 3D printing...now I am not so sure. But for sure 150,00 businesse accept BTS as of this writing.... not really but they accept BTC....you can pay those BTC with BTS, through shapeshift , you know.

Finally I sorry for all great (and very short lived) ideas pushed by this venue and not included in this writing.

PS
BTW, I truly love and admire fuzz's enthusiasm after all this. I do know you are just a dreamer, brother!
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: fav on April 16, 2015, 06:46:21 am
I learned one thing in ~3 years crypto: it's guilty until proven innocent.

would've offered to do the escrow, however, they used blocktrades to cover it seems.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: luckybit on April 16, 2015, 06:51:21 am
+5% Confirmed and accepted.

He is one of 2 community liason's recently brought onto gemspaces.

I added some conditions for our mutual protection. Gemspaces may very well be a legitimate company but it has to go through a community vetting process and I don't know whether or not you've gone through that process.

Considering the potential for scams and the rush to pay us I think it's fair for you to subject yourself to community vetting before I can work with your company or anyone else.

Are you prepared to be vetted and have your company be vetted? Do you have a way to show us that you're legally incorporated? If I'm going to represent the interests of the Bitshares community I have to ask you to subject yourself and your business to community vetting. This has to happen prior to you conducting any sort of crowd sale because of the potential for funny business.

I learned one thing in ~3 years crypto: it's guilty until proven innocent.

would've offered to do the escrow, however, they used blocktrades to cover it seems.

Money isn't really the issue. Basic due diligence is the issue. The more we know the safer we are. Escrow could work fine but once again, at this moment in time there is a bit too unknown for anyone to make a rational decision.



Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: fuzzy on April 16, 2015, 07:01:03 am
Thanks for clearing things up tsaishen. I for one can't wait to hear what you guys have in store. I've always thought that your postings were legit; seems pretty obvious to me from your posts that you're serious about this whole thing. I mean come on, you even offered escrow in your OP; it's ridiculous to see a bunch of community members immediately jump down your throat and scream scam without hearing you out first. You clearly have big plans for BTS and should be welcome with open arms, especially considering the rough past few months.

Just remember that the cries of a few outspoken community members are not at all representative of the community at large. Myself and I'm sure many others are eagerly awaiting to hear more.

I'm working behind the scenes to coordinate a hangout for tsaishen to answer any questions/concerns.

This is great news, thank you Fuzzy.

I'm disappointed in the community's reception of tsaishen thus far; since when are folks guilty until proven innocent?

How about we give tsaishen the benefit of the doubt and support his/her efforts in whatever way we can... until given a good reason to do otherwise.

Well, that is another thing.
Somehow appearing on "The fuzz show" makes any project legit. Quite the opposite in my recollection.


I sorry to post that but:

- there was the 'NHZ' project - They were going to be a DPOS chain and drop on us or whatever. Well we did not hear from them ever after...and during the show - for the lack of mic. ....the usual excuse...

- this one is semi-relevant but... there was the great destroyer of BTS.... the alphaBar guy... fuzz show made him legit for just appearing there....he launched the DPOS PTS and faded in black.

- Open source hardware anyone? Great idea.... not much news as of late. I believe the guy is hard at work on the hardware wallet for BTS! I have no doubt this is exactly what he does right now :)

- and there was 3D printing...now I am not so sure. But for sure 150,00 businesse accept BTS as of this writing.... not really but they accept BTC....you can pay those BTC with BTS, through shapeshift , you know.

Finally I sorry for all great (and very short lived) ideas pushed by this venue and not included in this writing.

PS
BTW, I truly love and admire fuzz's enthusiasm after all this. I do know you are just a dreamer, brother!

I'm not upset.  There is a reason why anyone (including you) can show up and say whatever they want/need to say at our hangouts--to make it (NOT) the "Fuzz Show". :)

Also, although this format does help weed out people who would be potential scammers (most people who would try to scam on bitcoin talk [ANN]'s would not do so if people got to hear them speak and ask literally any question that comes to mind), it is not fool-proof.  There are very charming people out there who will be more than willing to join up and pour honey in our ears.  A hangout is not the precursor to being "legit"...and I have never advertised it as such. 

As for NHZ.  It was never going to go DPoS.  Not sure where that comes from but they never said that.  What happened there is that I worked with them to offer IOU's tradeable on their NXT-based decentralized exchange.  At the time I thought it would be a really good idea to have a decentralized exchange partnered with us so we could trade BitShares DACs' tokens.  I also thought it would help us strategically to help elevate the value proposition of a NXT competitor (who is allied with us).  Of course, many things changed when they decided to go with Horizon (HZ) instead of NXT Horizon (NHZ)...along with the inclusion of blocknet. 

As for Open Source hardware.  I would love to give you an update.  They now are working out of Hanoi (vietnam) where they have acquired a large manufacturing facility, a hotel, a college campus (open source university) and approximately 1 million dollars a month for 10 months as a "runway" for take-off.  They have acquired a contract with one of the leading board manufacturers in Hanoi and are in the process of getting up and running.  As for them not being around...well all I can say is they are busy and found very few people interested in purchasing from them...so for the time being, they are working on more profitable endeavors (I can't blame them).  They have not forgotten about the BitShares community...but getting set up and going is a pretty big undertaking so they are obviously a bit too busy to worry about creating their blockchain. 
I was working with them behind the scenes, however, to ensure that even if the marketcap went very low, the bitshares team could have had a free place to stay and also a platform to teach others about blockchain technology (open source university).  But it seems the team has a better plan...so thats fine too! :)

As for ISG3D...well lets just say they did great advertising for us on twitter.  They also made some pretty epic stuff.  Not sure anyone in the community cared enough to buy that "10,000 BTC Pizza" off them though.  It is really hard to get companies to join our cause when they feel they get little in return...but the connections they make with the community may give them a heartfelt incentive later on to ally with us. 

*Now for the final...and serious note.  I never, ever say that anything is guaranteed.  What I do is constantly reach out and try to make connections for all the people trying to provide value to bitshares.  Rather than spend time complaining...I feel it is FAR better for all of you if I continually reach out and get shot down...or connect our community with people/companies who go nowhere, but whose connections might someday pay off in a way I have yet to see. 
I have said it many times before...but this is a good time to say it once more:  Our hangouts are specifically to help people who want to earn our community's trust do so.  It is a "gauntlet" of sorts that is intended to enable anyone to join and have a voice--regardless the size of their stake in the project.  It is also intended to increase the efficiency of communication and to serve as a backup for our community should something happen to the forums for extended periods of time. 


P.S.  I know of at least 80+ people who think the hangouts are valuable to BitShares.  I also know that there is not a single other Crypto community out there that has its own equivalency...imagine what they are saying about scammers in their midst!
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: zerosum on April 16, 2015, 07:43:45 am
I hope you count me as one of those 80+ that considers the 'hang outs' valuable. Couse I do find them valuable! Very much so!

My point was different though. Way too often being there is linked to being interested/involved and  having the BTS interest at heart. A golden ticket of kind. The examples I provided were to show that being on the show and being legit and/or interested in BTS are not necessarily the same thing.


PS
I do not believe the 1M USD runway, for open-software project the slightest, btw. But it could easily be my usual cynicism.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: TurkeyLeg on April 16, 2015, 07:52:49 am
I hope you were able to acquire the bitUSD you were looking for. As soon as I saw your willingness to escrow through a trusted MOD on this forum, I felt confident and had no doubts. People are reading too much into this (albeit from feeling burned in the past). Best of luck with your project!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: fuzzy on April 16, 2015, 08:08:03 am
I hope you count me as one of those 80+ that considers the 'hang outs' valuable. Couse I do find them valuable! Very much so!

My point was different though. Way too often being there is linked to being interested/involved and  having the BTS interest at heart. A golden ticket of kind. The examples I provided were to show that being on the show and being legit and/or interested in BTS are not necessarily the same thing.


PS
I do not believe the 1M USD runway, for open-software project the slightest, btw. But it could easily be my usual cynicism.

nothing wrong with a healthy dose of cynicism...
i agree 100% with you actually.  Unfortunately at this phase of growth it is what we have (and far better to have it imho). I would love to be able to eventually pay some community "cynics" to do investigative pieces on the projects that show up to get that golden ticket..but the time will come for this soon enough i suspect.
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: tsaishen on April 16, 2015, 05:16:58 pm
I hope you were able to acquire the bitUSD you were looking for. As soon as I saw your willingness to escrow through a trusted MOD on this forum, I felt confident and had no doubts. People are reading too much into this (albeit from feeling burned in the past). Best of luck with your project!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh yeah of course.
Sorry so quiet, I needed to sleep after 28hrs of being online.

Also I don't blame anyone a bit for being concerned.  It's not fun being scammed.

@Luckybit, you never even asked to get paid guy ;)  You're a real booster and I find that awesome.

No one demanded anything.  I never said they did.  Please re-read what I said before.  A few people mentioned that they would like to be paid upfront (or paid before they start), and I realized that this was actually a good idea and a thing that needed to be taken care of.  I'm not sure where any other intimation is coming from. 

Once we started talking about pay, I came to the sudden realization that despite having cash to do so, we had no legitimate plan to get them that cash.   

Since everyone (who agreed) had agreed to a USD amount, bitUSD seemed viable, but making a large acquisition in an illiquid market is never a good idea.

In the end we got some of it from market, the remainder is being bought direct through bank wires with a few whales. 
We fronted the cash and when it arrives safely at it's destination we will have the bitUSD.
Pretty much what we had set out to do.

What I didn't expect was the community reaction to a public offer to trade, which was really the intent of this thread.

It sort of devolved there for a bit didn't it?

@Fuzzy you make a salient point about getting to know the company better.
The vetting process is important, especially since a HUGE part of our plan is to make it easier and more transparent for the community to vet others.

I said from the beginning that our plan is to "eat our own dogfood" as it were.

I am ready to start talking about what we are planning to do and how it impacts the bitshares community.
Be advised that I have some legitimate technical concerns that need to be overcome first before I start linking websites, talking about tech etc.
 
I seem to still be the public face of things for now.  The others all seem to be busy doing their jobs while I'm here talking to you guys.

As far as my words "your community", "your coin" etc. 
You need to understand where I come from on this.  I'm absolutely, brand shiny new here. 
I've not exactly had the warmest reception.  I still feel like an outsider, hence "your this" and "your that".

This community has been around for quite awhile.  Most of you that are still around, are diehards and outlasters that have weathered one hell of a storm and yet still clung to hope that things will turn around.  You all have a common bond in that shared hope.  I wasn't there, I can't make that same claim.  I'm an outsider looking in.

My perspective is that I'm helping to build something.  We are building something that leverages your tech and your coin, to do something that we expect will be immensely profitable for us.  It stands a real chance of more than doubling the value of your coin, because it can alter the current market dynamic at a fundamental level.  We expect that what we are doing will drive demand for BTS by exposing it to a new audience.  Nevertheless, that is a side effect of what we are actually trying to achieve here.

We ask nothing of the community at large. 

We would like you as individuals to examine what we are doing and to join up in your own capacity if what we are doing is something you would like to be a part of.  We have need of people who are experts with this technology, because it will make it easier to guide new people into it.  Some of you are already a part of this, some of you are considering it, some of you have rejected it.  Most of you know little or nothing.

So here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to ask a mod to lock this thread. 
Replying to it is distracting, the original need for it has been solved and this is not the correct forum for where this conversation is going.

In the meantime I'll head over to https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/board,9.0.html sometime in the next 24hrs and start a thread. 
I will detail ...
#1 Who we are
#2 What we have planned
#3 Why we are planning it
#4 How far along we are
#5 What we still need to do
#6 It's expected impact
#7 Roles that remain to be filled

Just be advised that we are not a DAC.  If we need BTS we'll buy it ;)
The choice for that forum section is merely because I don't see a "Announce your company here" area.

Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: fuzzy on April 16, 2015, 09:09:16 pm
Sounds good.  Looking forward to hearing more from you :)
Title: Re: Need $10K bitUSD, will pay actual USD with 5% premium
Post by: CLains on April 16, 2015, 09:42:47 pm
Type up a storm, don't hold back.  +5%