BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bitbro on January 12, 2014, 04:41:05 pm
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Thoughts on Ethereum?
...will it catch on and when?
...and if/when/how to invest in it?
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See here : https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1765.0
Here you have a detail explanation from bytemaster :
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1854.0;topicseen
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Our technical team has evaluated the Ethereum proposal and design and have concluded the following:
1) Mining means the DAC will be operating at a loss or break-even at best. No dividends.
2) Scripts will require more blockchain space and bandwidth resulting in lower transaction volume for the same level of decentralization.
3) We do not believe the scripts can efficiently implement a BitShares like market matching with automatic margin calls at scale.
4) Merged mining would be required to secure parallel chains... this has its own challenges.
5) Mining will result in centralization one block at a time, something very bad for chains that implement markets.
6) Finding GPU developers is hard enough, defining a new dedicated language for this purpose will be even harder.
7) If you eliminate mining, then the cost of launching a new DAC is near 0 and you can simply use C++ to encode your contracts starting from a 'shell DAC' and launch without having to overload everyone not interested in your contract.
8) NO 'competitor' thus far is willing to admit that multiple parallel blockchains will be required to handle the order of magnitude greater transaction volume an exchange experiences vs Bitcoin and this is for a SINGLE currency pair. Imagine attempting to have every tradable market on one chain! This will rapidly be centralized into trusted supernodes that can handle the bandwidth requirements.
9) You think bitcoin verification times have trouble scaling, imagine executing an interpreted language!
Conclusion: We believe Ethereum is an interesting computer science project with little compelling advantage in developing new DACs and many drawbacks.
We wish them well and if their scripting language and contract design proves useful as a means for very special purpose contracts then we suspect we will be able to adapt it to a more efficient, profitable, AGS honoring DAC.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5A)
here is a good comparison video for BitShares vs Ethereum
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5A)
here is a good comparison video for BitShares vs Ethereum
I am finally taking a look at that one .. thx
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA4O3uOxm5A)
here is a good comparison video for BitShares vs Ethereum
the video is unavailable !!! Other link?
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Where can I find good links comparing Bitshares and Ethereum technologies? (Pros and cons).
I need this to explain it to people.
Thanks.
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Ethereum - A slow and expensive decentralised computer to be used for mission critical tasks in wider systems.
Bitshares - A fast dedicated decentralised exchange that runs on a blockchain.
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Where can I find good links comparing Bitshares and Ethereum technologies? (Pros and cons).
I need this to explain it to people.
Thanks.
I can't answer your question off the top of my head, but I'd like to say that BitShares and Ethereum can (and perhaps will) work nicely together one day.
So instead of (like the title of this thread) the "versus" mentality, perhaps explain how they will one day have a symbiotic relationship to defeat the current fiat based global banking system [*on knees praying*].
I think this is more important to stress to newcomers to cryptocurrency than, "Ethereum does this", "BitShares does that" ... "and no on knows which will win".
It gives the impression they are competing against each other, when in fact the only people competeting in each camp are the fiat chasing speculators who's greed has gotten the best of them [IMHO].
I'm not saying you have this attitude, but I think this should always be kept in the front of anyone's mind when discussing BitShares and Ethereum together.
BitShares does some things that Ethereum can't do (and that works both ways) or does/will do differently, but ultimately they are both doing the same thing (giving individuals a "swiss bank account in your pocket (http://swissbankaccountinyourpocket.com)") in different ways and choice is good.
As Dan said Friday, Ethereum will be the Microsoft of Virtual Machines ... but BitShares can likely do it better, faster and easier (as of now).
Ethereum is way ahead in the funding and marketing departments, but BitShares is way ahead on the technology front IMHO.
I believe Dan once said this as well (in a better way), that one camp spends a lot of time talking to others about what it can do one day, while Dan and company sit behind their computers coding three years ahead.
If you look at some of Vlad Samfir's talks (https://youtu.be/hOjlvwfREtw), Ethereum won't be approaching the speed of BitShares until their 4th hard fork many m00ns away.
So each one does something well and they compliment each other nicely when bundled together, I believe Rune could have something to say on that front.
Well that's just my opinion, but I'm just the village idiot so be sure to consult someone who actually knows something around here. ;)
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I agree with Tuck. I believe they can complement each other. Find a way for both chains to communicate (sidechains?) and we will have the first mega ecosystem with potential to do pretty much anything in the best way possible.
Like you said, Ethereum can do some things BitShares can't and vice-versa, so they just need a way to communicate in order to complement each other, giving birth to the first super crypto ecosystem with the best versatility and performance.
The best of both worlds, in a single one, while at the same time both keep their unique identities.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRit-GPA8OCRF8aM635bQW03pgDWRkPA_ZtQPH-t766XB9edrzaxw)
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I agree with Tuck. I believe they can complement each other. Find a way for both chains to communicate (sidechains?) and we will have the first mega ecosystem with potential to do pretty much anything in the best way possible.
Like you said, Ethereum can do some things BitShares can't and vice-versa, so they just need a way to communicate in order to complement each other, giving birth to the first super crypto ecosystem with the best versatility and performance.
The best of both worlds, in a single one, while at the same time both keep their unique identities.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRit-GPA8OCRF8aM635bQW03pgDWRkPA_ZtQPH-t766XB9edrzaxw)
This.
One could argue that it is even a woven braid of three chains the same way: BTS - ETH - BTC playing nicely together. BTS is the autobahn that ties them together while providing a DEX for all to use. This could grow to include all blockchains that have something unique to offer.
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I agree with Tuck. I believe they can complement each other. Find a way for both chains to communicate (sidechains?) and we will have the first mega ecosystem with potential to do pretty much anything in the best way possible.
Like you said, Ethereum can do some things BitShares can't and vice-versa, so they just need a way to communicate in order to complement each other, giving birth to the first super crypto ecosystem with the best versatility and performance.
The best of both worlds, in a single one, while at the same time both keep their unique identities.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRit-GPA8OCRF8aM635bQW03pgDWRkPA_ZtQPH-t766XB9edrzaxw)
This.
One could argue that it is even a woven braid of three chains the same way: BTS - ETH - BTC playing nicely together. BTS is the autobahn that ties them together while providing a DEX for all to use. This could grow to include all blockchains that have something unique to offer.
Does any of CNX or Dan, assuming he does maintain contact, have the opinion of other lead devs on this, like Vitalik? What do they think about this?
We have two leading chains that would work better together, apparently. I think it would be worth having a discussion about this between both sides (BitShares and Ethereum)
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Does any of CNX or Dan, assuming he does maintain contact, have the opinion of other lead devs on this, like Vitalik? What do they think about this?
We have two leading chains that would work better together, apparently. I think it would be worth having a discussion about this between both sides (BitShares and Ethereum)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdXlpvgWwAADD0O.jpg)
Notorious DEX with Lil Buterin ;)
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Is that photo recent?
Would be nice if Dan could share any discussion they had in that sense,
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Is that photo recent?
Would be nice if Dan could share any discussion they had in that sense,
No that's from a few years ago I believe. @Stan can probably confirm or deny.
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That was from the August 2014 Cryptolina event, shortly after this picture was taken.
(https://i.gyazo.com/5e9c1bb5e6ada83cb545e38d1666b394.png)
We spent several days together and V and BM exchanged a lot of great ideas.
Haven't talked much lately, but that could change at any time and I sense there is nothing preventing it other than it will probably have to wait till we come up for air on our current thrusts. Perhaps when we catch up with ETH on CMC later this summer we will take August off and go pay him a visit wherever he is at that time. :)
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Perhaps when we catch up with ETH on CMC later this summer
(http://images.rapgenius.com/3eg3pfl9er8bu69lv3aanxn5c.320x240x71.gif)
:D
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That was from the August 2014 Cryptolina event, shortly after this picture was taken.
(https://i.gyazo.com/5e9c1bb5e6ada83cb545e38d1666b394.png)
We spent several days together and V and BM exchanged a lot of great ideas.
Haven't talked much lately, but that could change at any time and I sense there is nothing preventing it other than it will probably have to wait till we come up for air on our current thrusts. Perhaps when we catch up with ETH on CMC later this summer we will take August off and go pay him a visit wherever he is at that time. :)
You just gave me a reason to sell more BTS with your price prediction :'( :'(
The last time it happened 。。。。。
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this summer
Do I sense another exciting edition of "BitShares Summer Announcements" on the horizon? tbh those "Winter Storm Warnings" just weren't doing it for me...
:P
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this summer
Do I sense another exciting edition of "BitShares Summer Announcements" on the horizon? tbh those "Winter Storm Warnings" just weren't doing it for me...
:P
This is the last paycheck you can afford to buy BTS at these price .
:P
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this summer
Do I sense another exciting edition of "BitShares Summer Announcements" on the horizon? tbh those "Winter Storm Warnings" just weren't doing it for me...
:P
I prefer we all go out and actively try to get people to join our little motley crew instead of asking when others will make it happen (not saying you are advocating sitting on our asses, btw).
If anyone wants to know the "secret sauce" that will make us fly it literally comes down to us all doing as much as we can and trying to not lose focus of what WE can do to help (as opposed to getting upset about others' failures while they are throwing their hat in the ring).
Love you @btswildpig but seriously bro, has every single thing you have worked on worked out? I assure you it hasn't for any of us. Unfortunately for Stan, he is in the position where he has to show people the possibilities without making promises because complete silence will be taken as "nothing is going on". So I for one am very happy he comes on and gives us the updates of what could "potentially" be on the horizon. I mean look how little the community knows about PLAY and MUSE these days... And I assure you that silence has many in the community too concerned to buy in. So which has been more valuable I guess is the question. If silence was, then I'd imagine MUSE and PLAY would be higher substantially than BTS but I have been wrong before! If you don't believe me...ask my wife!
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this summer
Do I sense another exciting edition of "BitShares Summer Announcements" on the horizon? tbh those "Winter Storm Warnings" just weren't doing it for me...
:P
I prefer we all go out and actively try to get people to join our little motley crew instead of asking when others will make it happen.
If anyone wants to know the "secret sauce" it literally comes down to us all doing as much as we can and trying to not lose focus of what WE can do to help (as opposed to getting upset about others' failures while they are throwing their hat in the ring.
Love you @btswildpig but seriously bro, has every single thing you have worked on worked out? I assure you it hasn't. Unfortunately for Stan, he is in the position where he has to show people the possibilities without making promises because complete silence will be taken as "nothing is going on". So I for one am very happy he comes on and gives us the updates of what could "potentially" be on the horizon. I mean look how little the community knows about PLAY and MUSE these days... And I assure you that silence has many in the community too concerned to buy in. So which has been more valuable I guess is the question. If silence was, then I'd imagine MUSE and PLAY would be higher substantially than BTS.
According to CFA guidelines which I have been reading lately , suggesting people what the price of a speculative/investment object will be by a person at a unique position constitutes potential misrepresentation .
You can predict price , he can't . There might be consequence someday if the space is more regulated .
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this summer
Do I sense another exciting edition of "BitShares Summer Announcements" on the horizon? tbh those "Winter Storm Warnings" just weren't doing it for me...
:P
I prefer we all go out and actively try to get people to join our little motley crew instead of asking when others will make it happen.
If anyone wants to know the "secret sauce" it literally comes down to us all doing as much as we can and trying to not lose focus of what WE can do to help (as opposed to getting upset about others' failures while they are throwing their hat in the ring.
Love you @btswildpig but seriously bro, has every single thing you have worked on worked out? I assure you it hasn't. Unfortunately for Stan, he is in the position where he has to show people the possibilities without making promises because complete silence will be taken as "nothing is going on". So I for one am very happy he comes on and gives us the updates of what could "potentially" be on the horizon. I mean look how little the community knows about PLAY and MUSE these days... And I assure you that silence has many in the community too concerned to buy in. So which has been more valuable I guess is the question. If silence was, then I'd imagine MUSE and PLAY would be higher substantially than BTS.
According to CFA guidelines which I have been reading lately , suggesting people what the price of a speculative/investment object will be by a person at a unique position constitutes potential misrepresentation .
You can predict price , he can't . There might be consequence someday if the space is more regulated .
schooled on regulation. My oh my how it strangles the invigorating contest for freedom and innovation *sigh*. I must certainly agree that these are potential issues...
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this summer
Do I sense another exciting edition of "BitShares Summer Announcements" on the horizon? tbh those "Winter Storm Warnings" just weren't doing it for me...
:P
I prefer we all go out and actively try to get people to join our little motley crew instead of asking when others will make it happen.
If anyone wants to know the "secret sauce" it literally comes down to us all doing as much as we can and trying to not lose focus of what WE can do to help (as opposed to getting upset about others' failures while they are throwing their hat in the ring.
Love you @btswildpig but seriously bro, has every single thing you have worked on worked out? I assure you it hasn't. Unfortunately for Stan, he is in the position where he has to show people the possibilities without making promises because complete silence will be taken as "nothing is going on". So I for one am very happy he comes on and gives us the updates of what could "potentially" be on the horizon. I mean look how little the community knows about PLAY and MUSE these days... And I assure you that silence has many in the community too concerned to buy in. So which has been more valuable I guess is the question. If silence was, then I'd imagine MUSE and PLAY would be higher substantially than BTS.
According to CFA guidelines which I have been reading lately , suggesting people what the price of a speculative/investment object will be by a person at a unique position constitutes potential misrepresentation .
You can predict price , he can't . There might be consequence someday if the space is more regulated .
schooled on regulation. My oh my how it strangles the invigorating contest for freedom and innovation *sigh*. I must certainly agree that these are potential issues...
We are all in unique positions.
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https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Ethereum-Development-Tutorial
unacceptable uses include using the EVM as a file storage, email or text messaging system, anything to do with graphical interfaces, and applications best suited for cloud computing like genetic algorithms, graph analysis or machine learning.
At least BTS can do text messaging?
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unacceptable uses include using the EVM as a file storage, email or text messaging system, anything to do with graphical interfaces, and applications best suited for cloud computing like genetic algorithms, graph analysis or machine learning.
There would be less of a difference when bitshares eventually implement a compatible EVM.
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unacceptable uses include using the EVM as a file storage, email or text messaging system, anything to do with graphical interfaces, and applications best suited for cloud computing like genetic algorithms, graph analysis or machine learning.
There would be less of a difference when bitshares eventually implement a compatible EVM.
honestly I am surprised no one on the development team looked into the possibilities last year. but better late then never.
it will be much easier for bitshares to get fin services users with that bolted on ...
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Interesting video on scalability of ETH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOjlvwfREtw
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Interesting video on scalability of ETH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOjlvwfREtw
Summarize?
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Major takeaway of that video:
* They name every hardfork differently! Frontier, Homestead, serenity
* Only after Serenity they will work on scalability for 1k to 10k tps
* After that .. they will be up to 1M tps ..
* Ethereum 4.0 brings 'infinity million tps" (WTF?! they either break speed of light or the size of the planet :) ) and maybe privacy
* Casper (the POS consensus) has not yet been proven
* solving the Economic scalability (bad actors shouldn't make a profit) in casper is still unsolved
* cross shard interoperability still unsolved
* shard validation and fees still unsolved
I think they will run into a lot of issues if they do not realize that doing things in parallel results in a lot of overhead.
The video is probably not worth your time, Dan. But it gives a nice overview of their current plans
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Major takeaway of that video:
* They name every hardfork differently! Frontier, Homestead, serenity
* Only after Serenity they will work on scalability for 1k to 10k tps
* After that .. they will be up to 1M tps ..
* Ethereum 4.0 brings 'infinity million tps" (WTF?! they either break speed of light or the size of the planet :) ) and maybe privacy
* Casper (the POS consensus) has not yet been proven
* solving the Economic scalability (bad actors shouldn't make a profit) in casper is still unsolved
* cross shard interoperability still unsolved
* shard validation and fees still unsolved
I think they will run into a lot of issues if they do not realize that doing things in parallel results in a lot of overhead.
The video is probably not worth your time, Dan. But it gives a nice overview of their current plans
I will say one thing, their "roadmap" is a perfect hype machine. It gives people hope for a perfect solution to every problem.
My experience with ETH (yes, I actually built it and synced the chain)...
1. I really like the JS console
2. my node got stuck syncing multiple times and had to be restarted
3. my node crashed multiple times.
4. It took me an order of magnitude longer to sync their chain
My take away is that for all of their hype, they are about as stable as the early versions of BTS. That said, I believe hype drives price more than value does.
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Major takeaway of that video:
* They name every hardfork differently! Frontier, Homestead, serenity
* Only after Serenity they will work on scalability for 1k to 10k tps
* After that .. they will be up to 1M tps ..
* Ethereum 4.0 brings 'infinity million tps" (WTF?! they either break speed of light or the size of the planet :) ) and maybe privacy
* Casper (the POS consensus) has not yet been proven
* solving the Economic scalability (bad actors shouldn't make a profit) in casper is still unsolved
* cross shard interoperability still unsolved
* shard validation and fees still unsolved
I think they will run into a lot of issues if they do not realize that doing things in parallel results in a lot of overhead.
The video is probably not worth your time, Dan. But it gives a nice overview of their current plans
I will say one thing, their "roadmap" is a perfect hype machine. It gives people hope for a perfect solution to every problem.
My experience with ETH (yes, I actually built it and synced the chain)...
1. I really like the JS console
2. my node got stuck syncing multiple times and had to be restarted
3. my node crashed multiple times.
4. It took me an order of magnitude longer to sync their chain
My take away is that for all of their hype, they are about as stable as the early versions of BTS. That said, I believe hype drives price more than value does.
You just believe it now ?
I thought after the comparison of BTS went to all time hight at August 2014 with a barely functional wallet and the hint of big thing , and BTS down to all time low with a much better version , you would know it already .
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Good article: Why your Ethereum project will most likely fail (https://medium.com/@bedeho/why-your-ethereum-project-will-most-likely-fail-d14b6d8f1c7c#.a0bojtrsc)
"Most proposed projects on Ethereum cannot point to a plausible end user benefit which is primarily enabled by being on the platform.
Things like “no middlemen” and “decentralization” are not actual end user benefits, they only potentially generate benefits indirectly. Perhaps even more so than in the Bitcoin space, using the Ethereum platform seems to be a decisive end-goal for people in Ethereum projects, rather than providing a better solution to a real world problem."
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Major takeaway of that video:
* They name every hardfork differently! Frontier, Homestead, serenity
* Only after Serenity they will work on scalability for 1k to 10k tps
* After that .. they will be up to 1M tps ..
* Ethereum 4.0 brings 'infinity million tps" (WTF?! they either break speed of light or the size of the planet :) ) and maybe privacy
* Casper (the POS consensus) has not yet been proven
* solving the Economic scalability (bad actors shouldn't make a profit) in casper is still unsolved
* cross shard interoperability still unsolved
* shard validation and fees still unsolved
I think they will run into a lot of issues if they do not realize that doing things in parallel results in a lot of overhead.
The video is probably not worth your time, Dan. But it gives a nice overview of their current plans
I will say one thing, their "roadmap" is a perfect hype machine. It gives people hope for a perfect solution to every problem.
My experience with ETH (yes, I actually built it and synced the chain)...
1. I really like the JS console
2. my node got stuck syncing multiple times and had to be restarted
3. my node crashed multiple times.
4. It took me an order of magnitude longer to sync their chain
My take away is that for all of their hype, they are about as stable as the early versions of BTS. That said, I believe hype drives price more than value does.
So when is the hype time for BTS coming? Somebody make a hype machine worker proposal and I will vote with my 2 bts
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Good article: Why your Ethereum project will most likely fail (https://medium.com/@bedeho/why-your-ethereum-project-will-most-likely-fail-d14b6d8f1c7c#.a0bojtrsc)
"Most proposed projects on Ethereum cannot point to a plausible end user benefit which is primarily enabled by being on the platform.
Things like “no middlemen” and “decentralization” are not actual end user benefits, they only potentially generate benefits indirectly. Perhaps even more so than in the Bitcoin space, using the Ethereum platform seems to be a decisive end-goal for people in Ethereum projects, rather than providing a better solution to a real world problem."
I concur with the article. Most "decentralized tech" has minimum value to people who do every-day things. The only place decentralized blockchain tech offers a competitive advantage is in areas burdened by regulation. Remove the regulation and you will find centralized blockchain tech taking over because it has all the benefits without the downsides.
We need solutions that help real people do real things. Until that day, blockchain tech will be a niche that serves the fringes of society and the grey/black markets.
This is why I am interested in MAS. I think a well implemented MAS can appeal to many more people. Initially on the fringe, but it can grow.