A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares. Easy.
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares. Easy.
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares. Easy.
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.
Unless I'm mistaken, any delegate not claiming 100% is burning the difference. So, I don't see it's controversial to put that difference for certain delegates into DVS.
I wonder if all the BTS not claimed by a delegate could automatically be thrown at DVS.. expecting that must make sense relative to the balance of transactions and the fees miners accept. That would then keep DVS floating at a point relative to BTS and the delegate average payrate. Given that most delegates are only getting 3%, that should be quite a lift to the value of DVS. That would give an incentive to those of us hosting devshares clients.. but perhaps that would be too much?.. Perhaps then 20% of what is not claimed by BTS delegates??
+5%I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.
Unless I'm mistaken, any delegate not claiming 100% is burning the difference. So, I don't see it's controversial to put that difference for certain delegates into DVS.
I wonder if all the BTS not claimed by a delegate could automatically be thrown at DVS.. expecting that must make sense relative to the balance of transactions and the fees miners accept. That would then keep DVS floating at a point relative to BTS and the delegate average payrate. Given that most delegates are only getting 3%, that should be quite a lift to the value of DVS. That would give an incentive to those of us hosting devshares clients.. but perhaps that would be too much?.. Perhaps then 20% of what is not claimed by BTS delegates??
Basically you are saying that we should inflate BTS more, sell the BTS on the market, resulting in thousnads of BTS per day, per delegate that does this of extra selling pressure, in order to prop up the price of devshares.
To which I respond: HELL FUCKING NO, if we ever want our flagship product BTS to break out of this downtrend, we need to be buying it, not dumping more of it on the market to suppress the price.
It seems that Bitshares supporters are just really really good at coming up with every possible way to hurt the price of BTS. Its almost like you want it to fail.
Also this would probably result in DVS getting a higher marketcap than BTS, which is nuts
Let's NOT try to drive the price of DVS up! Calling it "devshares" doesn't mean it's supposed to be paying for devs!
This whole thread is driving me nuts and is taking the wrong perspective. Next you'll be angry about some injustice about some DVS transfer. I seriously want to put a master key all the devs know with the ability to print 1 trillion more shares for people to understand how DVS should be treated.
BTS used to by DVS the BTS has to be sold, taking value from BTS. There's no way a BTS delegate should pay 66% of their pay to AGS + PTS, which is how DVS is distributed. If it was a testing chain just for BTS alone with 100% BTS sharedrop that would be fine, and is another reason the sharedrop should have been just on BTS. BTS is the only coin that can fund it and it's BTS developers who are working on it. PTS + AGS have nothing to do with it. Unless devs now have no allegiance to BTS but to the toolkit? (while profitable)
It's 'dev choice' and devs have lots of PTS + AGS so they can drop 66% themselves if they want. The provided reason for the 66% giveaway was to get the support of AGS + PTS, except they (almost) have no market cap so they're worth much less as supporters. No 100% BTS holder would vote in a delegate to subsidies AGS + PTS (i.e. DVS). It's just a big mistake to drop on them when great lengths have been taken to streamline the BTS message, I mean, who are they working for? BTS or not?
People think its no big deal because it will be worthless but I'm not so sure. I've seen countless 'worthless' coins become very valuable, e.g. litecoin. Crypto is very unpredictable. We shouldn't underestimate random speculation on DevShares. There's no need to vote in any subsidy. If they dropped on just BTS we could organise something as a backup measure if necessary.
Don't want to stir the pot for the sake of it, just expressing my honest opinion as a community member.
Keeping PTS + AGS alive makes explaining BitShares more complicated, that's a reason not to drop on them. When you get to the part about explaining about the occasional sharedrops you have to then explain PTS + AGS. Admittedly this isn't a major part of BTS due its massive feature set, but still, it confuses an already very complex message and will inevitably cause some BTS buyers to give up. Better to nip it in the bud or the squabbling will happen every time.
All else I can say is BTS drop does incentive PTS + AGS due to the BTS drops on those chains, so PTS + AGS are being over-incentivized, and pure BTS holders under-incentivized. If a truly even drop on all 3 groups was desired then it would be more like 20/20/60 or 15/15/70.
Your statement that devs can drop 66% on themselves if they want is misleading in the extreme. Perhaps your implication would be true if they target some other coin (like Ripple) that has a very limited distribution which they own disproportionately. But we all know the heritage of AGS, PTS, and BTS and it is pretty hard to make the case that the decentralized free-lance team of developers working on DevShares have any kind of a significant individual ownership percentage or bias among the three mailing lists. Of course, if they did, everyone else had the same chance as to adjust their ownership ratios over the course of time too.
But such arguments miss the whole point. I'd like to see you repeat your analysis from the point of view of what motivated/motivates members of all three target demographics. What makes each valuable?
According to your theory, the market cap of a demographic determines its value. But the AGS demographic has zero market cap, yet it represents a mailing list of those known to make no-strings-attached donations to a crypto-currency cause. Priceless, if you are counting on a similar kind of support for your new asset.
Likewise, PTS holders represent a pure demographic of those willing to hold a simple currency for no other reason than a desire to own and support new products. They obviously must recognize the value of DAC ownership, understand share drops and do not insist on mining as a distribution method. Yet every asset they hold was mined into existence, for those who think that matters. For some demographics and developers this characteristic is... Priceless.
BTS is the most active demographic, but people hold BTS for many reasons, the least of which may be sharedrop targeting. Yet they are most likely to be actively using a robust set of new features. They represent a great demographic of active, informed users, if that is important to a developer's bootstrap strategy.
So the decision is the developer's and depends solely on the developers' assessment of the relative value of these groups to her support-building strategy. It is clear to me why all three demographics are equally important to DevShares.
You will be much more likely to influence a developers' allocation if you argue why a particular demographic is more valuable and, more importantly, why giving it a higher percentage will increase the support of its members. You also have to consider the possibility that any bias away from equal distribution will be perceived negatively by the group(s) you don't favor.
Sometimes, its just not worth that risk. :)
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares. Easy.
I will actively fight against a delegate buying DVS to burn them, or inflating BTS to drop on DVS. No no no
I will actively fight against a delegate buying DVS to burn them, or inflating BTS to drop on DVS. No no no
Perhaps the easiest solution is that each new Devshares wallet gets a million DVS for free. That allows those without BTS to play too and avoids any controversy about value. As above, consensus on value cannot be controlled, unless there is inherently no value..
Dev shares need to have NO value at all. Otherwise people will just hoard them and not test on the platform because they have/may have "value". Nobody will test the network if they have a chance of losing the shares through experimentation .
Dev shares need to have NO value at all. Otherwise people will just hoard them and not test on the platform because they have/may have "value". Nobody will test the network if they have a chance of losing the shares through experimentation .
I will actively fight against a delegate buying DVS to burn them, or inflating BTS to drop on DVS. No no no
I will actively fight against a delegate buying DVS to burn them, or inflating BTS to drop on DVS. No no no
Could you explain your reasoning for this?
I was listening to the last Mumble chat where BM talks about Devshares and I feel its going to suck value out of Bitshares. Which would have been fine except that Devshares decided to allocate 67% to AGS/PTS when we suffered loss in value when buying them off.how does it suck value out of bts? I'd say it adds lots of value since there is a test network for bts.
I am baffled now as to why BTS paid for them if they continue to get sharedropped on.
Have you read the devshares announcement / mission / directives? https://bytemaster.github.io/update/2014/12/19/The-Value-of-DevShares/
we really do need and want DevShares to have some real value because only through having real value will a distributed user base actively test it; especially the market features. You cannot test BitAssets throughly unless the collateral has value.
Can we elect a delegate to buy and burn my personal testnet shares?
Quote from: bytemasterwe really do need and want DevShares to have some real value because only through having real value will a distributed user base actively test it; especially the market features. You cannot test BitAssets throughly unless the collateral has value.
Buying and burning DVS ensures that DVS will have non-zero value, because those seeking to get out of DVS will be able to find a buyer (assuming the delegate sells BTS for DVS using a no-reserve auction).
has the devshares share drop happened yet?
if not this could be a great marketing tool , think about it , when did most people get (understand)bitcoin? when you heard about it, or when you tried it out.
i heard about bitcoin many times but did not appreciate it till after i got enough bitcoin from a faucet to send bitcoin from one address to another.
no need for a sh$t loads of forms to fill out, just send and ka-ching its in my other wallet.
also did not appreciate bitshares till i tried bitbtc , its awesome earning interest on bitcoin knowing i can take it out at anytime, (unlike pbmining(facepalm) cryptostocks(facepalm) bitcoin-trader.biz(facepalm) butterflylabs(Dont ask))
if you are looking to increase the value of Devshares, then share them out to has many people has possible so people can try out the bitshares platform for themselves.
its a much better way of understanding/promoting bitshares than interviews, articles and the other promotional campaigns.
give them something to play with.
having more people/accounts on the devshares system would be helpful for bug hunting and looking for ways to improve the system, that is value right?
could also be less of a problem diluting Devshares , once a year create more coins and share them out.
something like
%20bts 10faucet 5pts 5bitcoin 5litecoin 5ripple 5stellar 5ltbcoin 5counterparty 5nxt 5namecoin 5darkcoin 5ltbcoin 5maidsafe 5ltbcoin 5doge
its just an idea , but if i got Dev-namecoin , Dev-nxt or other Dev-coin's dropped on my account i would check it out. especially if its free :)
has the devshares share drop happened yet?
if not this could be a great marketing tool , think about it , when did most people get (understand)bitcoin? when you heard about it, or when you tried it out.
i heard about bitcoin many times but did not appreciate it till after i got enough bitcoin from a faucet to send bitcoin from one address to another.
no need for a sh$t loads of forms to fill out, just send and ka-ching its in my other wallet.
also did not appreciate bitshares till i tried bitbtc , its awesome earning interest on bitcoin knowing i can take it out at anytime, (unlike pbmining(facepalm) cryptostocks(facepalm) bitcoin-trader.biz(facepalm) butterflylabs(Dont ask))
if you are looking to increase the value of Devshares, then share them out to has many people has possible so people can try out the bitshares platform for themselves.
its a much better way of understanding/promoting bitshares than interviews, articles and the other promotional campaigns.
give them something to play with.
having more people/accounts on the devshares system would be helpful for bug hunting and looking for ways to improve the system, that is value right?
could also be less of a problem diluting Devshares , once a year create more coins and share them out.
something like
%20bts 10faucet 5pts 5bitcoin 5litecoin 5ripple 5stellar 5ltbcoin 5counterparty 5nxt 5namecoin 5darkcoin 5ltbcoin 5maidsafe 5ltbcoin 5doge
its just an idea , but if i got Dev-namecoin , Dev-nxt or other Dev-coin's dropped on my account i would check it out. especially if its free :)
So... DevShares becomes both a Proving Grounds and a Training Grounds!
Long ago Charles Hoskinson and I pondered a business model that had such a "training simulator" for people to safely experiment with beginning and advanced trading methods and tools...
I forget which of us said, "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?"
has the devshares share drop happened yet?
if not this could be a great marketing tool , think about it , when did most people get (understand)bitcoin? when you heard about it, or when you tried it out.
i heard about bitcoin many times but did not appreciate it till after i got enough bitcoin from a faucet to send bitcoin from one address to another.
no need for a sh$t loads of forms to fill out, just send and ka-ching its in my other wallet.
also did not appreciate bitshares till i tried bitbtc , its awesome earning interest on bitcoin knowing i can take it out at anytime, (unlike pbmining(facepalm) cryptostocks(facepalm) bitcoin-trader.biz(facepalm) butterflylabs(Dont ask))
if you are looking to increase the value of Devshares, then share them out to has many people has possible so people can try out the bitshares platform for themselves.
its a much better way of understanding/promoting bitshares than interviews, articles and the other promotional campaigns.
give them something to play with.
having more people/accounts on the devshares system would be helpful for bug hunting and looking for ways to improve the system, that is value right?
could also be less of a problem diluting Devshares , once a year create more coins and share them out.
something like
%20bts 10faucet 5pts 5bitcoin 5litecoin 5ripple 5stellar 5ltbcoin 5counterparty 5nxt 5namecoin 5darkcoin 5ltbcoin 5maidsafe 5ltbcoin 5doge
its just an idea , but if i got Dev-namecoin , Dev-nxt or other Dev-coin's dropped on my account i would check it out. especially if its free :)
So... DevShares becomes both a Proving Grounds and a Training Grounds!
Long ago Charles Hoskinson and I pondered a business model that had such a "training simulator" for people to safely experiment with beginning and advanced trading methods and tools...
I forget which of us said, "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?"
well yes brain , for example i really want to play around with bitshares , shorting the usd and such ,
but has a noob am too afraid of mucking something up and losing my bts (kinda was the same with bitcoin at first) ,
so yes really looking forward to devshares and playing around with it :) kind of like a forex demo account.
PS: pinky was the good looking one ;p
well yes brain , for example i really want to play around with bitshares , shorting the usd and such ,
but has a noob am too afraid of mucking something up and losing my bts (kinda was the same with bitcoin at first) ,
so yes really looking forward to devshares and playing around with it :) kind of like a forex demo account.
PS: pinky was the good looking one ;p