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I still didn't get a decent reply about what to do. No plan whatsoever. Nice
I'm not anti-dilution, but I am anti-dilution for now.Akado, you said that if we don't dilute then the only way the price goes up is as the result of a pump.Based on what I recall about Bitcoin's growth, the only time a new higher bottom was ever established was in the aftermath of a giant pump. Bitcoin only starting hanging consistently above 255 after the pump above a thousand dollars, for the most recent example.I believe giant pumps are good. They bring more attention to the coin and motivate new people to hold in the hopes of moonglory.Here is what I see happening if we lay off the dilution for a while:Development may stagnant for a while and be limited to what people are willing to contribute voluntarily. The project doesn't die. We employ patience. During this time speculators become more confident that they won't be buying into just an ATM for the devs (and their sponsors). Given enough time, there will be a new pump or two, which will leave the price a little higher than it had previously been. Rinse and repeat this process a few times, then all of a sudden we're in a position to fund a new feature without shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.Yes, Bitcoin, my example above, does dilute, but this is different because that's not what's funding development. Miners are in more of a position to hold until the price goes up and sell at a time when it's more appropriate and healthy for the market. Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet.Obviously I can't speak for the chinese, but this is my logic as a temporary anti-diluter.
Quote from: merockstar on February 22, 2016, 01:39:11 pm...I kind of understand this reasoning. So, when would we STOP voting down workers? At 20m cap? Or at 100m? Independent of HOW this is achieved. There should be a clear message as to when shareholders accept a 'dilution' (as in spending company funds)@alt: since you are the major nay-sayer currently, I would like to get a clearer picture here.
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I am I big fan of delusion.... I think BM even has a post or something about that - "how to distribute delusion"..."benefits of delusion" or something...No delusion , no fun!anyway PSI might have been slightly drunk posting this....
Development may stagnant for a while and be limited to what people are willing to contribute voluntarily. The project doesn't die. We employ patience. During this time speculators become more confident that they won't be buying into just an ATM for the devs (and their sponsors). Given enough time, there will be a new pump or two, which will leave the price a little higher than it had previously been. Rinse and repeat this process a few times, then all of a sudden we're in a position to fund a new feature without shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.Yes, Bitcoin, my example above, does dilute, but this is different because that's not what's funding development. Miners are in more of a position to hold until the price goes up and sell at a time when it's more appropriate and healthy for the market. Let's dilute for new features at times when it's appropriate and healthy for the market, not at times when it will drive the price into the toilet.Obviously I can't speak for the chinese, but this is my logic as a temporary anti-diluter.
Quote from: Empirical1.2 on February 22, 2016, 10:08:58 amQuote from: clayop on February 22, 2016, 05:14:20 amif we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. I agree 0.5 BTS achieves pretty much the same results for 0 costs for the time being.Except for the marketing buzz yu could create with 0 fee. But considering how we suck at marketing you may be right
Quote from: clayop on February 22, 2016, 05:14:20 amif we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. I agree 0.5 BTS achieves pretty much the same results for 0 costs for the time being.
if we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now.
sorry, but I don't understand. i thought that the total number of BTS was capped. Are we referring to the increasing fee pool as "dilution" now?
Or a giant middle finger.
Quote from: clayop on February 22, 2016, 05:31:23 amQuote from: Erlich Bachman on February 22, 2016, 05:28:39 amQuote from: clayop on February 22, 2016, 05:14:20 amif we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. Can't we just give the new user a choice when they create an account of what type of fee schedule they want ?And they can change it for 1000 BTS anytimeLike how certain UIA options can only be changed onceThat still needs development costs.how much?have you heard of IOTA?Do you know that they are going to be the world's first "free" blockchain?Do you know what multiple of BTS their market cap currently is?Hint: it's currently trading on the NXT asset exchangeThey will launch with a monopoly of the freeloader market, and then you can see just how much "reward" you would have received for your "risk"This is where I would typically ask: What are we men or mice, but obviously we all know,https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuz2XiyjQAo#t=3m9s
Quote from: Erlich Bachman on February 22, 2016, 05:28:39 amQuote from: clayop on February 22, 2016, 05:14:20 amif we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. Can't we just give the new user a choice when they create an account of what type of fee schedule they want ?And they can change it for 1000 BTS anytimeLike how certain UIA options can only be changed onceThat still needs development costs.
Quote from: clayop on February 22, 2016, 05:14:20 amif we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now. Can't we just give the new user a choice when they create an account of what type of fee schedule they want ?And they can change it for 1000 BTS anytimeLike how certain UIA options can only be changed once
You own the network, but who pays for development?
Quote from: Pheonike on February 22, 2016, 05:07:16 amQuote from: btswildpig on February 22, 2016, 04:35:34 amQuote from: xeroc on February 21, 2016, 08:52:23 pmWhat is even worse, we have the means to support those that provide work to the ecosystem and still they get beaten down because they need to justify them selves over and over and still dont get anything out of it.Feom a developers perspective, its no wonder people prefer the much more healthy developer community at ethereum.I hope those that are in the anti "dilution" camp include this image damage in their calculations.You do know people who develop smart contracts in ethereum mostly find their own funding right ? Even with tons of dollars in Ethereum , a lot of smart contract developer can not be paid by Ethereum . Augur for instance , and our old friend Rune and Toast . Go to ethereum , see if they will open their wallet for you . Mostly won't . You'll have to find business model yourselves even you switch to Ethereum .But they are not building core functionality for ethereum. They are not building the platform, they are using the platform for their project. Big difference.IMIO, graphene's core functionality is completed. What we're doing is adjustment and improvement. We should think about that the benefits from the improvements are greater than their costs. E.g. if we can attract more users and businesses with 0.5 BTS fee with 0 costs, compared to conditional 0 BTS fee with 50k USD cost, we'd better to choose the first option now.
Quote from: btswildpig on February 22, 2016, 04:35:34 amQuote from: xeroc on February 21, 2016, 08:52:23 pmWhat is even worse, we have the means to support those that provide work to the ecosystem and still they get beaten down because they need to justify them selves over and over and still dont get anything out of it.Feom a developers perspective, its no wonder people prefer the much more healthy developer community at ethereum.I hope those that are in the anti "dilution" camp include this image damage in their calculations.You do know people who develop smart contracts in ethereum mostly find their own funding right ? Even with tons of dollars in Ethereum , a lot of smart contract developer can not be paid by Ethereum . Augur for instance , and our old friend Rune and Toast . Go to ethereum , see if they will open their wallet for you . Mostly won't . You'll have to find business model yourselves even you switch to Ethereum .But they are not building core functionality for ethereum. They are not building the platform, they are using the platform for their project. Big difference.
Quote from: xeroc on February 21, 2016, 08:52:23 pmWhat is even worse, we have the means to support those that provide work to the ecosystem and still they get beaten down because they need to justify them selves over and over and still dont get anything out of it.Feom a developers perspective, its no wonder people prefer the much more healthy developer community at ethereum.I hope those that are in the anti "dilution" camp include this image damage in their calculations.You do know people who develop smart contracts in ethereum mostly find their own funding right ? Even with tons of dollars in Ethereum , a lot of smart contract developer can not be paid by Ethereum . Augur for instance , and our old friend Rune and Toast . Go to ethereum , see if they will open their wallet for you . Mostly won't . You'll have to find business model yourselves even you switch to Ethereum .
What is even worse, we have the means to support those that provide work to the ecosystem and still they get beaten down because they need to justify them selves over and over and still dont get anything out of it.Feom a developers perspective, its no wonder people prefer the much more healthy developer community at ethereum.I hope those that are in the anti "dilution" camp include this image damage in their calculations.
Quote from: BunkerChain Labs on February 21, 2016, 09:16:57 pmWhat if the entire anti-dilution movement which is primarily coming out of China is merely them seeing the rate of pay for Westerners and comparing it to their own and they are being told that they are taking too much from BTS and have to be stopped? What if it was something that simple? We have seen threads talking about 'shame' ... maybe this is how they are viewing things?You can say it better . It may because they've believed the magical sentence "if you don't let us dilute , development will stop ., price will be down to 90% or be taken by Vote the monster DAC" . Oh , that was when the price was still high before the merger . They've also believed prior to 2.0 , BM said "all dilution in 2.0 will vest in years , no fear of dilution anymore " , and then ............Tell me something, do you still feel like this anti-dilution movement is out-of-the-blue and totally unreasonable after all the reason I've presented to you ? Still feel this is a Chinese issue ? Or BM issue ?
What if the entire anti-dilution movement which is primarily coming out of China is merely them seeing the rate of pay for Westerners and comparing it to their own and they are being told that they are taking too much from BTS and have to be stopped? What if it was something that simple? We have seen threads talking about 'shame' ... maybe this is how they are viewing things?
see what BTSdac dowhy develop must dilution?
Quote from: btswildpig on February 21, 2016, 05:11:45 pmQuote from: Samupaha on February 21, 2016, 05:01:22 pmQuote from: btswildpig on February 21, 2016, 04:16:05 pmTo sustain BTS's marketcap , investors are always more important than users . Especially "speculators" . So-called Long term investors only provide liquidity once .So basically you think that BTS is just another pump'n'dump coin and not a share of a DAC?BTS is shares . Shares are pump and dumps according to basic and simple economical common sense . Every shares in the world is about predicting its potential/future and speculative on it short term/long term beyond or below their actual value. BTS has no product . Even the basic product is built on top of shares . Hence another speculative design . If I have the time , I could write a thesis to explain it . Sadly I don't . In order to have a profitable business with actual economical income , you need outside income . But BTS by design can only accept inside shares as income . It's the exact meaning of "inner-circulation" . People can only pay the system by the speculative value of BTS , not by real outside money like fiat/btc . And BTS holders can not get dividend from actual outside value . Hmm....I think I may lost you here .If I build a machine that provides a service that people find useful, and people pay "real" money to buy tickets to use that machine,then that machine is a valid business. The fact that people speculate on the future value of those tickets is a completely orthogonal proposition.
Quote from: Samupaha on February 21, 2016, 05:01:22 pmQuote from: btswildpig on February 21, 2016, 04:16:05 pmTo sustain BTS's marketcap , investors are always more important than users . Especially "speculators" . So-called Long term investors only provide liquidity once .So basically you think that BTS is just another pump'n'dump coin and not a share of a DAC?BTS is shares . Shares are pump and dumps according to basic and simple economical common sense . Every shares in the world is about predicting its potential/future and speculative on it short term/long term beyond or below their actual value. BTS has no product . Even the basic product is built on top of shares . Hence another speculative design . If I have the time , I could write a thesis to explain it . Sadly I don't . In order to have a profitable business with actual economical income , you need outside income . But BTS by design can only accept inside shares as income . It's the exact meaning of "inner-circulation" . People can only pay the system by the speculative value of BTS , not by real outside money like fiat/btc . And BTS holders can not get dividend from actual outside value . Hmm....I think I may lost you here .
Quote from: btswildpig on February 21, 2016, 04:16:05 pmTo sustain BTS's marketcap , investors are always more important than users . Especially "speculators" . So-called Long term investors only provide liquidity once .So basically you think that BTS is just another pump'n'dump coin and not a share of a DAC?
To sustain BTS's marketcap , investors are always more important than users . Especially "speculators" . So-called Long term investors only provide liquidity once .
What about the 12% inflation from the merger? in 8 months it ends, don't you think that this is more than enought for the price? It's much more that a "halving" in btc terms. From 18% inflation we drop to 6% this not enought? we need to kill EVERY worker right now?
Quote from: Pheonike on February 21, 2016, 04:52:02 pmQuote from: chryspano on February 21, 2016, 04:38:17 pmQuote from: free on February 21, 2016, 04:23:53 pmPeople buy virtual currency because bitcoin is a deflation currency, it gives rise to expectations. If the bitshares continue to dilute, it is expected to depreciate, people will be far away from the bitshares. Everything we do is for more people to participate in, a project that is not involved in the project is a failure.I support altBitcoin is NOT deflationary, they are creating 3600 btc every day to pay miners and electric power companies.Exactly, Bitcoin has dilution but has an incentive structure mask it. Why can't the anti-dilutue ppl see this. The dilution is not that important, it's how those funds are being used which is the most important. I can understand if you don't support a particular worker, but not to support anything just doesn't make sense.Bitcoin dilution was paid to people with money to support the industry . BTS dilution is paid to people with no money but the need the sell . I even know bitcoin miners brought more bitcoin with their profit when Bitcoin price is low or going up . BTS delegate/worker ever done that ?I fail to see you can compare the two . Mining created a barrier so that Bitcoin only falls into those people with the power to support it .
Quote from: chryspano on February 21, 2016, 04:38:17 pmQuote from: free on February 21, 2016, 04:23:53 pmPeople buy virtual currency because bitcoin is a deflation currency, it gives rise to expectations. If the bitshares continue to dilute, it is expected to depreciate, people will be far away from the bitshares. Everything we do is for more people to participate in, a project that is not involved in the project is a failure.I support altBitcoin is NOT deflationary, they are creating 3600 btc every day to pay miners and electric power companies.Exactly, Bitcoin has dilution but has an incentive structure mask it. Why can't the anti-dilutue ppl see this. The dilution is not that important, it's how those funds are being used which is the most important. I can understand if you don't support a particular worker, but not to support anything just doesn't make sense.
Quote from: free on February 21, 2016, 04:23:53 pmPeople buy virtual currency because bitcoin is a deflation currency, it gives rise to expectations. If the bitshares continue to dilute, it is expected to depreciate, people will be far away from the bitshares. Everything we do is for more people to participate in, a project that is not involved in the project is a failure.I support altBitcoin is NOT deflationary, they are creating 3600 btc every day to pay miners and electric power companies.
People buy virtual currency because bitcoin is a deflation currency, it gives rise to expectations. If the bitshares continue to dilute, it is expected to depreciate, people will be far away from the bitshares. Everything we do is for more people to participate in, a project that is not involved in the project is a failure.I support alt
I cannot conclude which one was the major cause of the price move. Most likely, it was a combination of multiple factors.However, I may say that at least anti-dilution didn't destroy our market cap.
Quote from: clayop on February 21, 2016, 06:15:02 pmThe price at Feb 4 (when alt started anti-dilution post): $0.003215. Now $0.004176. +29.9%.Just coincidence? During the same period, Dash went down -7.6%, Doge increased slightly, +6.7%And you imply tht this effect is tge sole result of alts voting? I wonder what happens if the others that are working behind the scene doing business developmwnt and coding just do something else.Or in other words, what fraction of that raise is a result of - cnx developing stealth- me developing python tools- business development happening behind the scenes?- educational material maturing constantlyPlease tell me!
The price at Feb 4 (when alt started anti-dilution post): $0.003215. Now $0.004176. +29.9%.Just coincidence? During the same period, Dash went down -7.6%, Doge increased slightly, +6.7%
Quote from: btswildpig on February 21, 2016, 04:53:50 pmI even know bitcoin miners brought more bitcoin with their profit when Bitcoin price is low or going up . BTS delegate/worker ever done that ?didnt know I was supposed to tell you zthat I have put way more into BTS than just my 'time' .. you can also see that I have nevet sold any of my 'earned' BTS.Your statement ia pretty disappointing.
I even know bitcoin miners brought more bitcoin with their profit when Bitcoin price is low or going up . BTS delegate/worker ever done that ?
Quote from: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 02:56:10 pmRegardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to BTS!!!!You are mixing short term and long term benefits. It doesn't help much if alt is doing something that creates short term benefits for Bitshares right now if he is at the same time trying to hamper the development of Bitshares and prevent it becoming a succesful DAC.
Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to BTS!!!!
Quote from: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 04:24:49 pmSecond, and most importantly his vote does not preclude workers being voted in does it? I believe he will stop voting no to ALL worker then and there when it does . Until then it is just a way to show his believe in conservative spending.You on the other hand make a big deal out of it, like it has prevented any development already! Take it for what it is - making a point and pointing that we (collectively as BTS holders) are generally on the side of useless spending... spending for the sake of spending more often than not.I'm not. I'm just asking, what do anti dilution people expect. It's a simple question. That's all I want to know. I'm not defending worker proposals just because. If they aren't needed I don't support them, that's it. I also think we should be conservative, but come up with something worthy and take action.
Second, and most importantly his vote does not preclude workers being voted in does it? I believe he will stop voting no to ALL worker then and there when it does . Until then it is just a way to show his believe in conservative spending.You on the other hand make a big deal out of it, like it has prevented any development already! Take it for what it is - making a point and pointing that we (collectively as BTS holders) are generally on the side of useless spending... spending for the sake of spending more often than not.
Quote from: gamey on February 21, 2016, 04:23:10 pmIt would be nice to see someone address the original post. It asked a very good question. What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?The current state of BTS is much better than the old BTS1.0 which BM thought that was enough to do the "big thing" and get "millions of users outside of crypto" . If you think this is not enough , then why on earth would we believed the "big thing" in the first place ?
It would be nice to see someone address the original post. It asked a very good question. What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?
Quote from: tonyk on February 21, 2016, 02:56:10 pmQuote from: chryspano on February 21, 2016, 02:21:31 pmimo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.Quote from: Akado on February 21, 2016, 01:27:07 pmDiluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives. Quote from: gamey on February 21, 2016, 04:23:10 pmIt would be nice to see someone address the original post. It asked a very good question. What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?I tried above.I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to BTS!!!!lol propaganda? I think I was never the type of doing so. Propaganda was when countless fee threads were made. When people spam each others posts to remove votes from proxy A to B, etc That commentary was completely senseless. Even though I have my own opinion, I always try to understand both sides and not act like a horse with patches on my eyes. I always try to consider all the info and take both sides into account. Like I said, even though I need to emphasize it again, I'm not judging whoever supports no dilution.I asked a simple question. What comes after no dilution, if that was the case? While alt is certainly one of the most valuable members in our community, how many alts do you think we have? How many people with the knowledge + willing to do stuff for free can you find? It's a niche within a niche. While it would be preferable to have more productive people with the right skills like him around, the fact we have to face is those kind of members are a rarity. So that means maybe we should take other measures right? Or are we just going to sit around hoping for more people like that to appear out of thin air? That's my point."If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed." Unfortunately given most the community doesn't have the skills to be as productive as him or other members, the only thing they can do is risking their own money and trying to hire people to do what needs to be done.Now if some stuff should have already been done and ready previously, that's something for another topic as I too, believe, 2.0 was premature, however, what other choices to we have? Whatever your opinion is, you are either "hostage" by no-dilution and consequently no development or by high market rates charged to this community. There's really not much to chose from. You either pay a lot to get stuff done or you don't and things might not go forward. Hence, me asking what is the plan if the community chooses not to pay for development? I'm not advertising the so called dilution, actually, I'm pretty uncomfortable with this situation because you can only choose one of those two options I mentioned. That's why - if we choose not to pay for development - I'm asking what's the plan and what can we do to make BitShares better?
Quote from: chryspano on February 21, 2016, 02:21:31 pmimo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.Quote from: Akado on February 21, 2016, 01:27:07 pmDiluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives. Quote from: gamey on February 21, 2016, 04:23:10 pmIt would be nice to see someone address the original post. It asked a very good question. What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?I tried above.I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to BTS!!!!
imo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.
Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives. Quote from: gamey on February 21, 2016, 04:23:10 pmIt would be nice to see someone address the original post. It asked a very good question. What do these anti-dilution people expect to happen?I tried above.I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.
Quote from: chryspano on February 21, 2016, 02:21:31 pmimo what they are doing is plain stupidity and I'm all ears to be convined otherwise.Quote from: Akado on February 21, 2016, 01:27:07 pmDiluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives. I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.I do not claim to know why he is voting against ALL workers. But I am pretty sure he is trying to make a point to people lake you two who are hard to get the point, apparently.You follow the company line, reconfirm and multiply it by threads like this one. I have a question for you Akado. Do you do this propaganda for free? I think you do. So people can do something for free can't they especially when they believe. Well, while you have chosen to do company propaganda for free, he is doing the most useful thing for BTS for free. [arguably more productive than the devs who have proven to do years of work and have no product] He is doing what you even claim to be impossible - the most active trader on the dex.Regardless of his vote - alt is the most productive and beneficial thing that is happening to BTS!!!!
Diluting with a low price is bad, I think that's the point? Sure. But the important question is, what do we do then? We can't just wait for people to come and start trading out of nowhere because they won't. If we want to compete, we need to create incentives. I'm not arguing about why we shouldn't dilute. I just want to know what should we do then. Wait for the price to go up? If that happens it will be because of a pump and no real demand, which is pretty useless.