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Unless you meant that it would be semi-centralized and not really a DAC
Quote from: toast on March 04, 2014, 05:26:37 amI honestly think it's much easier to just convince I3 to give you guys a bunch of money to spend at your discretion. I would only devote precious DAC development resources to actual profitable DACs. Definitely a good idea in theory though.If centralized job or bounty auctions are profitable, and centralized exchanges are profitable, why wouldn't it be profitable to build a decentralized job/bounty auction site and have a decentralized exchange?Also once again why should the community exclusively rely on I3 to give us a bunch of money when we can just develop a DAC to decentralize the process of resource allocation? We can come up with an algorithm that we agree upon by consensus to be the most fair and then let the market go to work.If people think shares in a DAC which handles resource allocation and bounties would be valuable why not develop it? I do agree it would take a lot of time and there are probably many other more important DACs to build first but I think if we are going the route of streamlined decentralization why shouldn't we go all the way?If people in the community want to automate the process of crowd funding and allocating resources as much as possible why wouldn't that agenda be considered noble? It would make / allow DACs to organically build themselves from idea to finished product with an algorithm sending out shares according to Proof of Contribution. It of course would not be 100% autonomous because human beings would be working for the DAC doing things that cannot be automated but resource allocation is something which can be automated and Bitcoin proves that.I think in the long term it's worth it to build it. In 5 years someone could come along, post an Angel address, people send money to it, and the DAC would take it from there. The autonomous agent would collect the funds and then start distributing it according to a pre-defined algorithm because certain tasks have to be repeated for every launch.Make a power point presentation/whitepaper.Make a main website.Make a Facebook page.Put website in signatures.Create wiki.Create articles promoting the DAC.Debug and test the code.Make blockexplorer.All of the grass roots stuff could be simplified down to a script, and for humans a readable set of instructions which if followed step by step will create a fully functioning DAC. All of these tasks could be incentivized by distribution algorithm.
I honestly think it's much easier to just convince I3 to give you guys a bunch of money to spend at your discretion. I would only devote precious DAC development resources to actual profitable DACs. Definitely a good idea in theory though.
Quote from: dannotestein on March 03, 2014, 08:55:50 pmQuote from: clout on March 03, 2014, 08:42:17 pmI thought the initial fund raising ended with the feb. 28 snapshot. I3 has accumulated more than $2 million in the past 6 weeks from ags donations. I do not see how fundraising is what is necessary right now either. What is and has always been necessary is putting out a product.Nope, fund-raising is scheduled to go for 199 days starting from Jan 1st. The 28th snapshot was just the freeze for BTS block chain.Invictus has been pretty successful so far in raising money, I think, but I suppose there will be plenty of competition that can also raise a lot of money. I agree with you about the need to get out products, but I'd like to see us hire more people in order to speed up product development. Ideally, we should have enough marketing support from the community that Bytemaster can devote most of his time to product development, for example. I agree with the idea that we as a community, as investors, can and should take the initiative with marketing. Imagine if each of us were to upload very informative youtube videos on what this whole DAC concept is and what Bitshares are. Not only would we be saving valuable Angleshare money for infrastructure but we would also be helping in accelerating and increasing our returns.I have a Youtube channel where I have about 2,000 subscribers and 700,000 views. I haven't been very active on my channel recently but that can change and perhaps I can help with uploading videos about Bitshares/Invictus Innovations/DACS/Bitshares PTS.I'm open to suggestions
Quote from: clout on March 03, 2014, 08:42:17 pmI thought the initial fund raising ended with the feb. 28 snapshot. I3 has accumulated more than $2 million in the past 6 weeks from ags donations. I do not see how fundraising is what is necessary right now either. What is and has always been necessary is putting out a product.Nope, fund-raising is scheduled to go for 199 days starting from Jan 1st. The 28th snapshot was just the freeze for BTS block chain.Invictus has been pretty successful so far in raising money, I think, but I suppose there will be plenty of competition that can also raise a lot of money. I agree with you about the need to get out products, but I'd like to see us hire more people in order to speed up product development. Ideally, we should have enough marketing support from the community that Bytemaster can devote most of his time to product development, for example.
I thought the initial fund raising ended with the feb. 28 snapshot. I3 has accumulated more than $2 million in the past 6 weeks from ags donations. I do not see how fundraising is what is necessary right now either. What is and has always been necessary is putting out a product.
The basic idea seems to be similar to MyHammer, right?http://www.myhammer.co.uk/http://www.my-hammer.de/
Lucky, I would put PTS towards this if it gave me back the platforms token. Is my understanding correct?
Lucky, that's a fantastic idea! What's preventing this from being developed at the moment?
Why don't we do something similar to Peercoin's "Peer4Commit" project (http://peer4commit.com/)?The community could basically vote with AGS/PTS which project they'd like next based on funding. AGS could be forked and the chain used to fund projects but not otherwise tradable... or could be redeemed for PTS at a premium.
Input: Human labor--> "Mining"------------------------------------DAC: Sort algorithm maintains a task list updated by humans stored in the blockchain, where the sort algorithm allows human beings to vote up or down to adjust the priority level "importance" of each task.DAC: Value is determined by community voted task priority and popularity. If the task is very popular then "difficulty" shall rise to redirect the flow of labor to less desirable more important tasks.DAC: Maintains a ledger or spreadsheet which constantly updates detailing which Keyhotee ID did which task. DAC: Can hire human beings or scripts (autonomous agents) to do tasks either separately or working together. (Credits earned by a script can be used by the script to pay humans for the updating of the script)------------------------------------Keyhotee: Maintains reputations, allows for up or down votes, allows for notice of task completion which again receives up or down vote by a pool of trusted Keyhotee IDs to verify it as true or false. (As an administrator who verifies the work of others you would get paid to check whether or not others have completed their task and the greater your accuracy the better your credit rating or reputation for doing that particular task. You are like a referee for the system. This job may also involve preventing spammers, cheaters, other Keyhotee IDs will anonymously review your work and get paid on their accuracy as well)------------------------------------Output: Signature campaigns, website development, documentation, FAQs, tweets, YouTube videos, Facebook pages, memes, or anything else.Output can be measured for success. If an output is considered a failure such as if it is spam, if someone did not follow the rules, or if it has a completely negative impact then that output can be reviewed during the verification process and credit score shall adjust based upon the result of that review. In most cases there should be nothing to review because reviewers would have to be compensated and the anonymous reviewers of those reviewers would have to get their cut as well so this action should be avoided unless a significant amount of people in the community vote for and pay for a review/audit.------------------------------------Social contract: Any DAC which wants to use the services of this DAC must set aside shares in their DAC to pay for its services. This DAC is to be set up for the benefit of the humans and autonomous agents who work for it and for the community as a whole to benefit from it.
How about a bounty exchange platform with an Ask/Bid?This is essentially a bounty auction and exchange platform. It is completely algorithmic in approach and completely automated. It determines the true market price of any kind of labor by reaching the equilibrium point between the supply and demand through the bid/ask.It would be centralized at first but could be made decentralized, it's also a way to determine who would be selected for the bounty in a completely automated fashion.It may even allow workers to trade jobs on the exchange provided they do so before the expiration date. This way if a worker bit off more than he could chew he could exchange his bounty with someone else and they'd get paid in his place if they complete it.InstructionsAs the employer first you'd put up your bidding price which is the highest you're willing to pay, then a bunch of potential bid fillers put up their asking price and according to the algorithm it would meet in the middle according to supply and demand at an equilibrium point. This would give the market the true price of the labor.Input: Employers enter a job description and bidding price to be displayed as the maximum bounty reward.Input: Employees/Job hunters enter their asking prices, mapped to their Keyhotee IDs.DAC: An algorithm selects the employee willing to work for the lowest asking price (lowest bounty reward)DAC: A bot sends an encrypted message to the public key of the Keyhotee ID address and sends a bounty token to their wallet.DAC: The transaction and exchange exist entirely in a blockchain so that if necessary anyone with that bounty token can exchange their bounty token for anyone else's. Output1: The job is completed by the expiration date on the bounty token, and the bounty token is redeemed at the true price of labor in the market.Output2: The job is not completed by the expiration date and the bounty token is never redeemed, therefore it is invalid and expired.Social Contract: 50% Protoshares, 45% Angelshares, 5% Promotion, Discount and Giveaway sharesWhat could go wrong? Someone could lose their bounty token and then the bounty would expire wasting valuable time. On the other hand it would save time if someone can trade their received bounty with another person or split their bounty with another person all in automated fashion by using the divisibility of the bounty token. So if I did 90% of the labor and I could not do that final 10% then I could break off 10% of the bounty token and give it to anyone willing to work for it. Let me know if this idea could work?
This idea is revised and refined here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1413.msg15246#msg15246A simple diagram could illustrate the conceptual infographic as:Input: Human labor--> "Mining"------------------------------------DAC: Sort algorithm maintains a task list updated by humans stored in the blockchain, where the sort algorithm allows human beings to vote up or down to adjust the priority level "importance" of each task.DAC: Value is determined by community voted task priority and popularity. If the task is very popular then "difficulty" shall rise to redirect the flow of labor to less desirable more important tasks.DAC: Maintains a ledger or spreadsheet which constantly updates detailing which Keyhotee ID did which task. DAC: Can hire human beings or scripts (autonomous agents) to do tasks either separately or working together. (Credits earned by a script can be used by the script to pay humans for the updating of the script)------------------------------------Keyhotee: Maintains reputations, allows for up or down votes, allows for notice of task completion which again receives up or down vote by a pool of trusted Keyhotee IDs to verify it as true or false. (As an administrator who verifies the work of others you would get paid to check whether or not others have completed their task and the greater your accuracy the better your credit rating or reputation for doing that particular task. You are like a referee for the system. This job may also involve preventing spammers, cheaters, other Keyhotee IDs will anonymously review your work and get paid on their accuracy as well)------------------------------------Output: Signature campaigns, website development, documentation, FAQs, tweets, YouTube videos, Facebook pages, memes, or anything else.Output can be measured for success. If an output is considered a failure such as if it is spam, if someone did not follow the rules, or if it has a completely negative impact then that output can be reviewed during the verification process and credit score shall adjust based upon the result of that review. In most cases there should be nothing to review because reviewers would have to be compensated and the anonymous reviewers of those reviewers would have to get their cut as well so this action should be avoided unless a significant amount of people in the community vote for and pay for a review/audit.------------------------------------Social contract: Any DAC which wants to use the services of this DAC must set aside shares in their DAC to pay for its services. This DAC is to be set up for the benefit of the humans and autonomous agents who work for it and for the community as a whole to benefit from it.
I just want everyone to be aware of what we have been doing the past two days:1) Charles Evans and I just recorded a 1 hour interview discussing everything we are doing and explaining BTS X. This will be edited and released as part of our marketing effort.2) Brian Page, Stan, Charles, and I also met today to discuss an animated 90 second video explaining "What is BitShares"3) I met with a reporter from the Roanoke Times who will be doing an article on what we are doing.As you can see marketing is being given attention in between writing code and handling legal issues. You need to understand that legal and marketing need to coordinate and that lawyers are known for anything but their speed in understanding these things or signing off on any particular language that they are comfortable with.Also, We produced another Article, "A BitRose by Any Other Name" that Adam said would be published today (or yesterday) on Lets Talk Bitcoin. I am also preparing a new page for our website that is a one-stop-shop for answering all of the questions everyone has about how things work. From where I sit we are spending a lot of time and effort on marketing and education. I haven't read this whole thread, because we are very busy today, but I thought you all should know what we are doing in this domain.
Quote from: unimercio on March 03, 2014, 10:40:57 pmQuote from: AdamBLevine on March 03, 2014, 05:39:33 pmThe motto is decentralize everything, the community needs to step up and lead these initiatives - Propose actionable plans that Invictus can say "Yes, that's a great idea go do that" and when it's done award the funds they authorized, or ideally come up with a less centralized storage system so we don't wind up with our own little Empty Gox should the legal situation in Virginia get hairy. Governments freeze funds first and ask questions later, and jail is real. wise, young JediShould we find a group to hold a fraction of the angel funds in a multi-sig address? Perhaps me, adam, fuznuts, clains, dan, with 3 required to release funds?
Quote from: AdamBLevine on March 03, 2014, 05:39:33 pmThe motto is decentralize everything, the community needs to step up and lead these initiatives - Propose actionable plans that Invictus can say "Yes, that's a great idea go do that" and when it's done award the funds they authorized, or ideally come up with a less centralized storage system so we don't wind up with our own little Empty Gox should the legal situation in Virginia get hairy. Governments freeze funds first and ask questions later, and jail is real. wise, young Jedi
The motto is decentralize everything, the community needs to step up and lead these initiatives - Propose actionable plans that Invictus can say "Yes, that's a great idea go do that" and when it's done award the funds they authorized, or ideally come up with a less centralized storage system so we don't wind up with our own little Empty Gox should the legal situation in Virginia get hairy. Governments freeze funds first and ask questions later, and jail is real.
3I - Let me know how I can help.
Why would you push for more marketing when the test product hasn't even been launched yet?
Quote from: super3 on March 03, 2014, 02:56:50 pmSeems like a whole lot of ideas from the community, and the bottleneck is communicating with Invictus. Why don't we allocate some of the war chest, just like 10-20 BTC to start, to the community and let the community decide what we want to do with it. We can develop and purchase our own ads, media, etc.Really an experiment here, but I think its worth trying.I love it...and your use of the term "we" makes me smile. I will simply urge one thing, however. Rome was not built in a day...and in my experience all strong communities form over time as passionate and resolute members trickle in and become part of the family. So be stubborn and dare to believe you are a valuable member!
Seems like a whole lot of ideas from the community, and the bottleneck is communicating with Invictus. Why don't we allocate some of the war chest, just like 10-20 BTC to start, to the community and let the community decide what we want to do with it. We can develop and purchase our own ads, media, etc.Really an experiment here, but I think its worth trying.
This could start as a subreddit, might be good for qualifying votes etc.
Quote from: super3 on March 03, 2014, 02:56:50 pmSeems like a whole lot of ideas from the community, and the bottleneck is communicating with Invictus. Why don't we allocate some of the war chest, just like 10-20 BTC to start, to the community and let the community decide what we want to do with it. We can develop and purchase our own ads, media, etc.Really an experiment here, but I think its worth trying.Demand it from angel funding, put into a multi-signature address with a few people from this thread. I'm OK with this.
Creating a separate "hub" consisting of active community members will increase the complexity of decentralization. The community would self-organize around ideas for improvements, changes, work to be done, etc.
I just don't want that B and the others feel pressured. It's then more art, which is what I like.
Why don't we allocate some of the war chest, just like 10-20 BTC to start, to the community and let the community decide what we want to do with it.
I just don't want that B and the others feel pressured. When people do things voluntarily it is not as efficient as slave work but they also don't burn out. It's then more art, which is what I like. I believe you know much more about marketing and stuff. From my feeling, I3 does not want to be a company that plays the game like so many do it. Produce cheap, sell a lot. Thing breaks, buy again. I cannot handle pressure from outside, it makes my thinking and emotions go crazy. Give them some air to breathe and wonders will happen. Like when I worked at the video store. I was always stoned and the boss fired me one day. He said that I would levitate through the company and working not fast enough. He was taking the pills for the stomach acid problems he created by himself. He wanted me to become like him and work like a maniac. You know the feeling between an organic shop and a discounter. When the product and the environment is good for everyone, the people will come and then the discounter has to offer organic otherwise he will lose his business.
At the moment nobody knows if bitsharesx will even work right? What if this whole thing crashes or gets hacked or something? I say stay low profile until things work and when it works, get "Drew Barrymore" for an ad on "Hulu"
I would really encourage invictus to emulate them ASAP and get at least a temporary blog up that can be the central repository for the most important information every invictus investor/donor should know.
Ideally we would want Brain to do more on the on-camera press, etc. but everyone who has met Dan knows he is pretty convincing.
Invictus's only advantage is DACs that make economic sense and are truly value-producing.
I think this is great news. Sounds like there's huge upside potential for BTSX, now that the snapshot is taken.
I think web strategy is very important to any crypto. Not just website, but presence.
I think opportunity has and continues to be wasted by letting these very basic things go undone.
For the right amount of protoshares most of us would gladly advertise and market any website Invictus wants marketed.But instead they've decided to go with this centralized top down marketing campaign. They have all these angelfunds and they have people on this forum willing to do marketing. Why not use the community to do marketing? We all own PTS/AGS and we all want more, so they have ways to give us incentives to market whatever information they want us to market but they aren't giving us any talking points, any websites or signature codes, etc.
What's really lacking is transparency in all of this. Brian is basically working alone in his locked room waiting for magic to happen. He doesn't really update the community and from what I've seen, he isn't really using the community and integrate them in his marketing strategy. There are so many smart people on this forum that are eager to spread the word and help with some marketing here and there.
There is almost no presence on Bitcointalk.
I actually gave up on the NXT community because they only exist in that 2,000 page long thread.
Unless the system has changed, when I checked in December reddit ads on the /bitcoin sub were sold out for months in advance.
Quote from: AdamBLevine on March 02, 2014, 10:38:30 pmWe had a bitcoin meetup yesterday in napa, had 9 people show up. Every person there knew about Ethereum, NXT, and Mastercoin. Four of them knew about Counterparty, one knew about eMunie. None of them knew about Protoshares, Bitshares or Invictus innovations. When I explained to them about the bitshare snapshot they were all interested but unfortunately they didn't know about it, seven of them were LTB listenersCounterparty launched their blog yesterday (that is, a protocol that raised no money and has no paid staff, but does have a working distributed asset exchange, distributed betting etc) and announced their medium-term security audit and protocol upgrade strategy. I would really encourage invictus to emulate them ASAP and get at least a temporary blog up that can be the central repository for the most important information every invictus investor/donor should know. I also believe it should be the marketing director Brian who should be doing most of the on-camera press, blogging and evangelizing. Daniels time is very valuable and he is not well suited for the role of spokesman. I am a fan of conferences when you need to make deals happen or need money, but if the goal is to "get the word out" I can't see any potential reason why going to the texas event should be more important than crafting a strategy to address the tens of thousands of people who are predisposed to being interested in Invictus's products but have never heard of them because there has been almost zero web outreach and the web presence for invictus continues to be insufficient to educate or inform all but the most dedicated and non-time-constrained supporters. Invictus does not need money and they don't need thought leadership, which is the reason to give a talk - they need to deliver on a media strategy and deliver on their products. As they say, you don't starve - you drown. I'm a huge invictus supporter and think the vision is right on but execution has been lacking and communication/marketing abysmal. Please prioritize so I can stop complaining.I agree with this. There is almost no presence on Bitcointalk.I recommended early on that Invictus use bounties to get people us to put their website in our signatures. That is the least they could do. For the right amount of protoshares most of us would gladly advertise and market any website Invictus wants marketed.But instead they've decided to go with this centralized top down marketing campaign. So where is the leadership? Where are the advertisements?There should be ads on Reddit at least. Quote from: toast on March 02, 2014, 10:54:55 pmMy suggestions:* STOP Keyhotee UI development. Deploy the blockchain, get a CLI client and let people integrate it into stuff on their own. This is a *massive drain of precious angel resources** Dan focus on BTS X and BTS DNS and nothing else. Let someone else do "ceo" tasks, including kicking the marketing team into shapeI'm very strongly tempted to come to I3's offices and help them organize all their shit over spring break...They have all these angelfunds and they have people on this forum willing to do marketing. Why not use the community to do marketing? We all own PTS/AGS and we all want more, so they have ways to give us incentives to market whatever information they want us to market but they aren't giving us any talking points, any websites or signature codes, etc.I think Keyhotee is critical and should have been released first. So I'm glad they are spending money on it, but I think marketing is probably the most critical and it's easy to do when you have the money.Put an ad on Reddit. A lot of people go there and when the Bitshares client is ready that is the best place to find people. Also set up some sort of referral or viral marketing campaign for Keyhotee. If we have Keyhotee ID's there is no reason why they cannot give us a referral incentive.
We had a bitcoin meetup yesterday in napa, had 9 people show up. Every person there knew about Ethereum, NXT, and Mastercoin. Four of them knew about Counterparty, one knew about eMunie. None of them knew about Protoshares, Bitshares or Invictus innovations. When I explained to them about the bitshare snapshot they were all interested but unfortunately they didn't know about it, seven of them were LTB listenersCounterparty launched their blog yesterday (that is, a protocol that raised no money and has no paid staff, but does have a working distributed asset exchange, distributed betting etc) and announced their medium-term security audit and protocol upgrade strategy. I would really encourage invictus to emulate them ASAP and get at least a temporary blog up that can be the central repository for the most important information every invictus investor/donor should know. I also believe it should be the marketing director Brian who should be doing most of the on-camera press, blogging and evangelizing. Daniels time is very valuable and he is not well suited for the role of spokesman. I am a fan of conferences when you need to make deals happen or need money, but if the goal is to "get the word out" I can't see any potential reason why going to the texas event should be more important than crafting a strategy to address the tens of thousands of people who are predisposed to being interested in Invictus's products but have never heard of them because there has been almost zero web outreach and the web presence for invictus continues to be insufficient to educate or inform all but the most dedicated and non-time-constrained supporters. Invictus does not need money and they don't need thought leadership, which is the reason to give a talk - they need to deliver on a media strategy and deliver on their products. As they say, you don't starve - you drown. I'm a huge invictus supporter and think the vision is right on but execution has been lacking and communication/marketing abysmal. Please prioritize so I can stop complaining.
My suggestions:* STOP Keyhotee UI development. Deploy the blockchain, get a CLI client and let people integrate it into stuff on their own. This is a *massive drain of precious angel resources** Dan focus on BTS X and BTS DNS and nothing else. Let someone else do "ceo" tasks, including kicking the marketing team into shapeI'm very strongly tempted to come to I3's offices and help them organize all their shit over spring break...
We had a bitcoin meetup yesterday in napa, had 9 people show up. Every person there knew about Ethereum, NXT, and Mastercoin. Four of them knew about Counterparty, one knew about eMunie. None of them knew about Protoshares, Bitshares or Invictus innovations. When I explained to them about the bitshare snapshot they were all interested but unfortunately they didn't know about it, seven of them were LTB listeners
Hi Mr. Levine, there is this bounty for a radio ad for your channel. Nobody is doing it I guess because it's too difficult. If you know how to do it, gogogo
I also believe it should be the marketing director Brian who should be doing most of the on-camera press, blogging and evangelizing. Daniels time is very valuable and he is not well suited for the role of spokesman.