Bitshares Questions?

[speedy]

I love the look of this:

"Partial progress on bitasset 'borrowing'"
https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene-ui/commit/ae96a743c3cda5734b11abb192596c57a2f024dd

Perhaps we dont have too long to wait for the bond market afterall

Got any screenshots?

[monsterer]

That's a bond market! An with it comes the risk of default. Hence, the network (BitShares) cannot be your counter-party and you need others to take the risk in a separate contract.

It should be margin called by the chain, surely?

[xeroc]

Isnt what Polo is doing what we would call the Bond market?

Btw as soon as proposals are running, Im voting for the Bond market to be the #1 priority. Peer 2 peer lending is the killer blockchain app.

I'm not sure.  If the bond market can do what polo is doing, then we pretty much have margin trading.

How it works on polo is that users can put any of their coins up for lending at a percentage rate of their choice.  Then other users can borrow those coins.  They borrow btc to use to margin long different alts, or they borrow alts to sell them to create a short position.

That's a bond market! An with it comes the risk of default. Hence, the network (BitShares) cannot be your counter-party and you need others to take the risk in a separate contract.

If the Bitshares bond market is going to allow people to do this, plus enforce margin calls, it might be able to duplicate this functionality, which would be great. 

BitShares will have something like this eventually. .. at least that's my impression from BMs interviews .. It will just not be part of the initial release!

[Ander]

Isnt what Polo is doing what we would call the Bond market?

Btw as soon as proposals are running, Im voting for the Bond market to be the #1 priority. Peer 2 peer lending is the killer blockchain app.

I'm not sure.  If the bond market can do what polo is doing, then we pretty much have margin trading.

How it works on polo is that users can put any of their coins up for lending at a percentage rate of their choice.  Then other users can borrow those coins.  They borrow btc to use to margin long different alts, or they borrow alts to sell them to create a short position.


If the Bitshares bond market is going to allow people to do this, plus enforce margin calls, it might be able to duplicate this functionality, which would be great. 

[speedy]

There is no actual evidence that margin trading is even on anyone's radar.

Agreed.

Margin trading is a really big deal though.  Poloniex has taken over the altcoin trading because it added margin.  If people could safely margin trade things in BTS it would be amazing.  (Beyond just the ability to slightly margin long BTS via a bitUSD short). 

Isnt what Polo is doing what we would call the Bond market?

Btw as soon as proposals are running, Im voting for the Bond market to be the #1 priority. Peer 2 peer lending is the killer blockchain app.

[monsterer]

It's in the pipeline of BM's mind.  Don't you recall BM telling us that he had to cut a couple features out of the next release such as the bond market?  These features are partially developed, so it would not be efficient to place a brand new project ahead of a really super awesome feature that is 90% developed but just needs polishing.

Your posts come across as misleading. There is no actual evidence that margin trading is even on anyone's radar.

[Erlich Bachman]

Yeah, margin trading would probably be either P2P like the bond market or a pool of liquidity like Makercoin depending on weather we want individuals or a group to assume the risk of a sudden violent price movement.  The amount of allowable leverage should be a function of the amount of liquidity in the system.  If the liquidity dries up suddenly, then the blockchain automatically deleverages the leveraged positions before they can even think about using their borrowed funds to sway the market.

[Ander]

Those are all important features.  I would vote for the ones that are expected to be fast first.

Margin trading is a really big deal though.  Poloniex has taken over the altcoin trading because it added margin.  If people could safely margin trade things in BTS it would be amazing.  (Beyond just the ability to slightly margin long BTS via a bitUSD short). 

[Erlich Bachman]

It's in the pipeline of BM's mind.  Don't you recall BM telling us that he had to cut a couple features out of the next release such as the bond market?  These features are partially developed, so it would not be efficient to place a brand new project ahead of a really super awesome feature that is 90% developed but just needs polishing.

It's common sense:  Do you want BM to work on implementing a "margin trading" feature that will take a year to complete?  Or should he pull an all nighter and complete the bond market platform?  We had this discussion right after BM told us about the 2.0 features.  He wanted to cut a couple corners to get 2.0 released early so we could at least not have to be covering our shorts every 30 days.  Nobody's even sure if he is even going to charge us extra for the features that he promised for 2.0 such as the bond market, so good luck getting people to vote for a feature that will take 10 times as long to complete, and cost the community a fat wad of cash.  I'm not a coder, so all I have to base my opinion on is:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=5
Everything BM says

The man really has it going on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPyuZ6ZTqmo#t=23s

here lets practice the pipeline party etiquette with the locals:



... some of these are partially developed, and some are going to take a while to build and implement:

- anonymity

- 2FA

- margin trading

- bond market

- prediction market

- reoccurring payments

now you pick...


... OK . now me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOIo_ODjVTg#t=44s

[monsterer]

BM has not submitted any proposals because he is working on the launch.  Once 2.0 is launched, then he can submit proposals, and we then get to vote for what feature we want added next.  It's the circle of life.

Ok... it's just when you say things like this:

Right now there are a few features that are ahead of "margin trading" in the development pipeline.

That implies to the reader that such a feature is already in the development pipeline.

[monsterer]

We can't know exactly until 2.0 launches, and proposals are voted on.

Where is the proposal, I'm confused?

[monsterer]

You are in luck then, because BitShares lets you choose which feature gets developed next when you vote for it.  Right now there are a few features that are ahead of "margin trading" in the development pipeline.

Where is margin trading in the roadmap, exactly?

[Erlich Bachman]

I would like to see it become a reality soon! 

You are in luck then, because BitShares lets you choose which feature gets developed next when you vote for it.  Right now there are a few features that are ahead of "margin trading" in the development pipeline.

But if you purchased enough BTS then voted for the "margin trading" feature to be implemented next, then you would force the developers to work on getting this "margin trading" feature completed first and in essence, you would be getting exactly what you want:

before the "bond market" is completed
before "2 factor authentication" is implemented
before many other features that others want developed get implemented

So know this:  The next new feature to be implemented in BitShares is entirely up to you.   You are in total control here, so don't tell us what your hopes are because that sounds similar to you complaining that the trash is full when you already know how to take out the trash yourself.  In other words, when you say:

"I would like to see it become a reality soon" it sounds just like you are saying:

"I would like to see someone else besides me take out my trash for me. ...SOON!"

This is not the bitcoin community where users can only complain and hope that the developers respond to their cries, this is the BitShares community where users weild power over their elected officials and have complete control over the development of their coin. 

This is not bitcoin. You are no longer a castrated unich, but a free man empowered with the power to vote and affect real change to your environment.  The choice is yours. Bitcoiners love not having the responsibility or control over their own lives.  Giving up their choices makes their lives simpler, and that's what they want: to not have to think, learn, work, or act. 

BitShares is a community for the opposite type of person (one who wants maximum choice,  freedom, and control).  Its not that complaining is not allowed in the BitShares community, its just that if you are complaining, then you are logically complaining about yourself.  If you are not happy here, then it is your fault. It was your choice to not participate enough to be able to impose your will on our community.

 Don't  come here and tell us that the trash is full when you see that we are all already  busy and you know exactly how to accomplish this task yourself.  Anyone can get this implemented ASAP, they just need to obtain enough voting stake.

Its not up to me how fast this feature gets implemented. Its up to you (the user). 

Incidently, one of the features in the development pipeline will allow you to directly purchase leveraged voting power for those times in your life when you really really really

would like to see it become a reality soon! 

[BossYamasaki]

I'm not sure if bitshares decentralized asset exchange is going to be the first fully decentralized (OTC) market allowing crypto-traders to trade FX or CFDs but is it possible for fully decentralized FX trading or CFD trading to exist with or on the bitshares asset exchange? Is this the point of bitshares?

IMO no man-made system can be fully decentralized.  I like to think of it on a scale of 0 to 100, with 0 being fully centralized and 100 being fully decentralized.  Nothing is a 0 and nothing is 100.  All financial systems fall somewhere in between including fiat currencies such as the dollar or euro.  The real question we should ask is, "is it sufficiently decentralized?"  Actually, I would take it a step further and ask, "Is it sufficiently secure?"  because cryptography provides a large portion of security but is not directly tied to decentralization.  The end result should be a system where users cannot get their assets stolen or transactions censored, either directly or through inflation of the base asset.  For example, when your brokerage will not allow 500:1 leverage, that is a direct result of censorship, meaning the system you are using is not sufficiently secure.  Also, when the fed starts another round of QE, that is inflation of the base asset which is also not sufficiently secure. 

Right now, only bitcoin and related 1.0 technologies are sufficiently secure.  Nxt may be the only technology that can be considered 2.0 and sufficiently secure, depending on your perspective.  Bitshares, ripple, stellar, and ethereum are not sufficiently secure at this point, but plan to be in the future.  The main difference is that only bitshares will offer sufficiently secure assets (bitassets which are pegged to the value of physical world assets) other than the native currency. 

This is still very much a work in progress.  I am guessing that in less than 5 years you will be able to do this:



in a sufficiently secure environment powered by bitshares... at a fraction of the fees... using 500:1 leverage... trading corn, wheat, copper, usd, jpy, chk, ect, ect, ect.  At least that is the plan.


disclaimer:  This is still and experiment.  No guarantees.

Well balanced and well stated. 

I will be super excited when OTC can be traded on BitShares!

I would like to see it become a reality soon! 

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

I'm not sure if bitshares decentralized asset exchange is going to be the first fully decentralized (OTC) market allowing crypto-traders to trade FX or CFDs but is it possible for fully decentralized FX trading or CFD trading to exist with or on the bitshares asset exchange? Is this the point of bitshares?

IMO no man-made system can be fully decentralized.  I like to think of it on a scale of 0 to 100, with 0 being fully centralized and 100 being fully decentralized.  Nothing is a 0 and nothing is 100.  All financial systems fall somewhere in between including fiat currencies such as the dollar or euro.  The real question we should ask is, "is it sufficiently decentralized?"  Actually, I would take it a step further and ask, "Is it sufficiently secure?"  because cryptography provides a large portion of security but is not directly tied to decentralization.  The end result should be a system where users cannot get their assets stolen or transactions censored, either directly or through inflation of the base asset.  For example, when your brokerage will not allow 500:1 leverage, that is a direct result of censorship, meaning the system you are using is not sufficiently secure.  Also, when the fed starts another round of QE, that is inflation of the base asset which is also not sufficiently secure. 

Right now, only bitcoin and related 1.0 technologies are sufficiently secure.  Nxt may be the only technology that can be considered 2.0 and sufficiently secure, depending on your perspective.  Bitshares, ripple, stellar, and ethereum are not sufficiently secure at this point, but plan to be in the future.  The main difference is that only bitshares will offer sufficiently secure assets (bitassets which are pegged to the value of physical world assets) other than the native currency. 

This is still very much a work in progress.  I am guessing that in less than 5 years you will be able to do this:



in a sufficiently secure environment powered by bitshares... at a fraction of the fees... using 500:1 leverage... trading corn, wheat, copper, usd, jpy, chk, ect, ect, ect.  At least that is the plan.


disclaimer:  This is still and experiment.  No guarantees.

Well balanced and well stated. 

I will be super excited when OTC can be traded on BitShares!