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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: dichalcog3nid3 on November 08, 2015, 06:29:58 am

Title: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: dichalcog3nid3 on November 08, 2015, 06:29:58 am: The BitShares platform and all Graphene based chains, are built on next generation web technologies that ensure a highly responsive interface. One idea that came to mind, when thinking about how we could leverage these technologies in favor of the network becoming the de facto place for global p2p trades, was to integrate a copy trade plugin. Such a module would allow avid amateur traders to benefit from the strategies implemented by those exalted professional traders (BTS) and talent seekers (MUSE). In the same way, popular top ranking Investors in our network can enjoy an income of the money invested in them through proxy trading.

I want to see our project impact at least 1 billion people, as preached by innovators and enlightened minds at the singularity university. I do not doubt for a yocto-second that our ecosystem will become the rails on steroids for international trade, but we must satisfy a wide array of market actors including: professional traders, liquidity providers, and average social media users in order to get there.

(http://merkabahnk.io/os/img/proxytrade.jpg)

I would love to know what the community thinks about implementing something like this down in our roadmap. I honestly believe that Poloniex doesn't even come close to what we currently have, we are a whole new financial operating system. Something like what Valentine Jesse (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19791.msg254754.html#msg254754) is proposing on the trading interface would be ideal, and something more social like this mockup for accounts followed would be slick. I have not yet seen something similar to this approach in the crypto-currency ghetto, if you have, please share it on this thread.

RESOURCES:

*etoro. the world's largest social investment network. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-i8DiL67oY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-i8DiL67oY)
*darwinex. the broker that invests in its traders. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sao_bemOYvk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sao_bemOYvk)
*zulu trade. the largest social trading community. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvwECUrHzjQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvwECUrHzjQ)
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: kuro112 on November 08, 2015, 07:44:19 am: freebie has an exciting solution to this we plan to announce coming very soon, please include us in any discussions on this topic.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: jakub on November 08, 2015, 09:18:05 am: I like this idea a lot. It's brilliant.
Is it just an idea or have you got resources and plans to implement it?
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: fav on November 08, 2015, 09:24:22 am: yes, please make this happen.

etoro but without the ridiculous taxes (for my country) would be a killer feature.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: jakub on November 08, 2015, 10:14:31 am: If you create a worker proposal for this I'll be supporting it.
I'm sure @fav will too, so you'll have two proxies on your side.
That's a pretty good start :)
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: fav on November 08, 2015, 10:18:10 am: Quote from: jakub on November 08, 2015, 10:14:31 am
If you create a worker proposal for this I'll be supporting it.
I'm sure @fav will too, so you'll have two proxies on your side.
That's a pretty good start :)

+5%
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: Akado on November 08, 2015, 01:26:16 pm: Well, wouldn't this be something like a decentralized hedge fund? Last night I was thinking about it, however I think our ideas are different. Assuming I understood your plan correctly, an inexperienced trader would simply copy the patterns of more experienced traders.

What I was thinking was something more like a hedge fund using dynamic account permissions, however I dont know if it would work. Right now, account A gives certain permissions to account B right? I still haven't explored that well, but could the user specifically choose which permissions account B would have? That would be useful.

So assume an account ''hedgefundX'' would be created. All accounts wanting to participate would create a new account or ''hedgefundX'' would create subaccounts where people could send funds to but with dynamic permissions so that users participating could withdraw their funds at any time. Then accound "hedgefundX" would do the trading and split the profits.

What I'm not sure off is "hedgefundX" having to place multiple orders for those multiple subaccounts it owns. That's the problem. It would either have to create a bot to place orders at the same time or we would have to create a new feature:

that feature would be similar to dynamic account permissions, but would be something like Dynamic Fund Permissions. Where you could send any amount of any asset to a certain account and you would have powers over those funds. That way "hedgefundX" could use all the funds of its costumers in order to trade in a much more easy way and costumers could withdraw their funds at any time. These type of transactions including dynamic fund permissions would need a confirmation from the receiver first as to prevent chargebacks like on paypal.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: lil_jay890 on November 08, 2015, 01:38:34 pm: This sounds very similar to Darwinex.com. Darwinex is a fx trading platform that allows you to invest in other traders with any acceptable risk you want. It's a great service. I would suggest the OP check out Darwinex.com and get some ideas, perhaps even a partnership could be formed?
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: dichalcog3nid3 on November 08, 2015, 03:37:12 pm: Awesome guys! I will elaborate more on it, and work closely with those interested in rendering a tailored graphene compatible version of this feature into existence. Thanks @jakub and @fav for resonating on the same frequency, we are in fact off to a pretty good start with your community pooled votes. +5%

Quote from: Akado on November 08, 2015, 01:26:16 pm
that feature would be similar to dynamic account permissions, but would be something like Dynamic Fund Permissions. Where you could send any amount of any asset to a certain account and you would have powers over those funds. That way "hedgefundX" could use all the funds of its costumers in order to trade in a much more easy way and costumers could withdraw their funds at any time. These type of transactions including dynamic fund permissions would need a confirmation from the receiver first as to prevent charge backs like on PayPal.
@Akado, interesting iteration! I am digging deeper into the BitShares architecture as well, to find the best way for this to work out. So, are accounts then one route to go? They seem to be flexible for adjusting collateral, permissions and other actions.
(http://merkabahnk.io/os/img/proxy-holder.jpg)

More technical orientation on this matter would be appreciated, as it would trigger new synaptic activity on all of us interested in building a solid proposal for this. MANY THANKS!
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: dichalcog3nid3 on November 08, 2015, 03:47:24 pm: Quote from: kuro112 on November 08, 2015, 07:44:19 am
freebie has an exciting solution to this we plan to announce coming very soon, please include us in any discussions on this topic.
Consider yourself included @kuro112! It is truly remarkable that freebie has a solution for this! Would you care telling us more about it?
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: Akado on November 08, 2015, 04:56:49 pm: Quote from: dichalcog3nid3 on November 08, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
Awesome guys! I will elaborate more on it, and work closely with those interested in rendering a tailored graphene compatible version of this feature into existence. Thanks @jakub and @fav for resonating on the same frequency, we are in fact off to a pretty good start with your community pooled votes. +5%

Quote from: Akado on November 08, 2015, 01:26:16 pm
that feature would be similar to dynamic account permissions, but would be something like Dynamic Fund Permissions. Where you could send any amount of any asset to a certain account and you would have powers over those funds. That way "hedgefundX" could use all the funds of its costumers in order to trade in a much more easy way and costumers could withdraw their funds at any time. These type of transactions including dynamic fund permissions would need a confirmation from the receiver first as to prevent charge backs like on PayPal.
@Akado, interesting iteration! I am digging deeper into the BitShares architecture as well, to find the best way for this to work out. So, are accounts then one route to go? They seem to be flexible for adjusting collateral, permissions and other actions.
(http://merkabahnk.io/os/img/proxy-holder.jpg)

More technical orientation on this matter would be appreciated, as it would trigger new synaptic activity on all of us interested in building a solid proposal for this. MANY THANKS!

Well I made up the Dynamic Fund Permissions, I don't think it's available or if it's even feasible, I was just messing around with some ideas. But even without that, the users would only need to create a new account/subaccount, give the hedgefund account permissions and the hedgefund manager could run all of those accounts with a bot I think. Only problem is it would give more work or would need to work with percentages instead specific amounts but I think that way it's feasible.

One hedgefund service could also host a wallet where every account created would automatically give hedgefund manager permissions so he could use part of those funds or something like that.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: namjar on November 08, 2015, 05:04:21 pm: some years ago, the similar website is here, it good service and help people get great profit from forex.
here http://forexwon.zulutrade.com
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: Empirical1.2 on November 08, 2015, 05:25:33 pm: Sounds interesting though with anonymous accounts for hedge funds/trade-following you'd have to be weary of some variation of 'The Prediction Scam'

At it's most simple - Open 1000 accounts with 5000 BTS each.

500 make a trade guessing 'X' market will go UP, 500 make a guess it will go DOWN.

Of the 500 that guessed right, 250 of them then make a trade guessing 'X' market will go UP and 250 guess DOWN.

Of the 250 that guessed right, 125 then bet UP and 125 bet down and so on.

By the end you'll break even overall, less fees but you'll have 1 account with a 100% trading record for 10 trades in a row.

Then you can say,

'Hi, I'm Bob, this is my account, you can verify I have an awesome trading record and I've rapidly turned 5000 BTS into 2-5 million BTS. Who wants to join my hedge fund!?
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: SpiritofJefferson on November 08, 2015, 06:43:54 pm: Well what if we just didn't pay these people? Sort of like we don't pay proxy voters. That way there's no incentive for people to do that sort of scam. Good traders want to be good because they'll make more money, there's no reason to pay them more for that since the incentives are already lined up. I guess if it can't be built into the protocol, like someone simply following another trader, then hedge funds would be set up and regulations would take care of the rest. But I think it would be cool if it was as simple as clicking copy. That would attract a lot of people.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode on November 08, 2015, 11:36:15 pm: Quote from: Hunter_S on November 08, 2015, 06:43:54 pm
Well what if we just didn't pay these people? Sort of like we don't pay proxy voters. That way there's no incentive for people to do that sort of scam. Good traders want to be good because they'll make more money, there's no reason to pay them more for that since the incentives are already lined up. I guess if it can't be built into the protocol, like someone simply following another trader, then hedge funds would be set up and regulations would take care of the rest. But I think it would be cool if it was as simple as clicking copy. That would attract a lot of people.

I tend to agree that this should not be a paid thing. There are social validation benefits to those that choose to do this. Perhaps they are real fund managers and this would give further evidence of their capabilities.. but if any scam is to be had by their activity, it won't be taking place in the DEX.

Overall I think it's a rather advanced idea.. think we can all agree we still need to take care of A B C before we can do this D.

I would certainly like to be involved in this to help formulate the foundational data on this at least to determine how viable it is from a market perspective and better focus in on how it might work to best serve the wants of the target client that would want this.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: ebit on November 09, 2015, 03:17:47 am: +5%
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: fuzzy on November 09, 2015, 07:53:13 am: This is a sexy idea...please build it so they will come.
Title: Re: PROXY TRADE - DEX Feature Proposal
Post by: Akado on November 09, 2015, 08:27:51 am: Quote from: Empirical1.2 on November 08, 2015, 05:25:33 pm
Sounds interesting though with anonymous accounts for hedge funds/trade-following you'd have to be weary of some variation of 'The Prediction Scam'

At it's most simple - Open 1000 accounts with 5000 BTS each.

500 make a trade guessing 'X' market will go UP, 500 make a guess it will go DOWN.

Of the 500 that guessed right, 250 of them then make a trade guessing 'X' market will go UP and 250 guess DOWN.

Of the 250 that guessed right, 125 then bet UP and 125 bet down and so on.

By the end you'll break even overall, less fees but you'll have 1 account with a 100% trading record for 10 trades in a row.

Then you can say,

'Hi, I'm Bob, this is my account, you can verify I have an awesome trading record and I've rapidly turned 5000 BTS into 2-5 million BTS. Who wants to join my hedge fund!?

Well people would trust those the same way they trust a witness. Use services provided only by known members. Of course this doesn't mean scammy people still wouldn't create any, but... common sense.