First + 1 + 1 + 1 for going ahead with this.
I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]
Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20
I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.
First + 1 + 1 + 1 for going ahead with this.
I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]
Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20
I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.
I would prefer to create the debate in this thread than move it in a private channel.
Don't you think that we lack of liquidity in the BitShares BTC market to really kick off the Bit20 ? Maybe if we had already the sidechain in place ... I don't want to wait we reach high liquidity in all our major smartcoins market to see grow the BIT20 but rather be able to start creating liquidity since the very first day.
I thought BTS was a good choice but the debate is pretty much alive !!
BTS has higher volatility than BTC, so more oportunities to make a profit will arise for buyers, sellers and shorters as the price spikes up and down.
That's also basically why I though BitUSD wouldn't be a great choice, I don't see anyone in his right mind shorting BIT20 Vs BitUSD.
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20So in other words - in reality the lack of liquidity in bitBTC does not matter much. You do that to open a short position in bittop20 without needing any bitBTC on the market. Same goes to closing it - you free your bitBTC from the collateral and close your short bitBTC with them.
First + 1 + 1 + 1 for going ahead with this.
I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]
Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20
I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.
I would prefer to create the debate in this thread than move it in a private channel.
Don't you think that we lack of liquidity in the BitShares BTC market to really kick off the Bit20 ? Maybe if we had already the sidechain in place ... I don't want to wait we reach high liquidity in all our major smartcoins market to see grow the BIT20 but rather be able to start creating liquidity since the very first day.
I thought BTS was a good choice but the debate is pretty much alive !!
BTS has higher volatility than BTC, so more oportunities to make a profit will arise for buyers, sellers and shorters as the price spikes up and down.
That's also basically why I though BitUSD wouldn't be a great choice, I don't see anyone in his right mind shorting BIT20 Vs BitUSD.
Oh yeah, something else:I mentioned it in the other thread. I have been thinking about creating a UIA that would represent 100% of the benefits coming from the 0.1% cut taking on the trades of the index.
I also think a ETF Share token should be issued so that contributors get some sort of reward, @EstefanTT mentioned an idea like this on a previous thread and I thought it was quite incentive and a perfect way to do some crowdfunding too.
+5%Oh yeah, something else:I mentioned it in the other thread. I have been thinking about creating a UIA that would represent 100% of the benefits coming from the 0.1% cut taking on the trades of the index.
I also think a ETF Share token should be issued so that contributors get some sort of reward, @EstefanTT mentioned an idea like this on a previous thread and I thought it was quite incentive and a perfect way to do some crowdfunding too.
That would allow us to reward easily anyone helping in the project.
I will probably create the UIA when I create the smartcoin and a buyback or dividend system would be use.
Great initiative. Let me know if there is any way I can assist.I will ! This thread is also a way to know people interested in the project ;)
+5% +5% +5% for the initiative !!!
some thoughts...
I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading... And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....
if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...
+5% +5% +5% for the initiative !!!That's an interesting idea !
some thoughts...
I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading... And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....
if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...
My first though is the volume can vary quickly and it would change the composition of the Bit20 too often.
My first though is the volume can vary quickly and it would change the composition of the Bit20 too often.
No if you use the average weekly or monthly volume!
PS you can use both (marketcap + volume) but give 70% weight to volume and 30% weight to marketcap for example...
+5% +5% +5% for the initiative !!!
some thoughts...
I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading... And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....
if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...
I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.
trade volume is also easily faked
trade volume is also easily faked
thats true !
Maybe that is one more reason to use both parameters... Volume + Marketcap (with a 70%-30% weight or something like that)
we could optimally use even more data, to choose the top cryptos for our bit20 index but I am afraid it will get too complicated ...
a very good example of doing this "pickup" is
https://cyber.fund/
they seem to have made a good job with "Scoring Coefficients"
https://github.com/cyberFund/cyberrating/blob/master/scoring.md
In reality they could (@21xhipster) already use their idea and link their "cyber-fund" with a BTS created smartcoin instead of a UIA they created using "colored coins"...
I bet they would gain much more traction from the cryptospace ;)
BTW
I've create prototype asset. http://cryptofresh.com/a/CYIND.
Would like hear your recommendations how this thing can be configured for better, as to be honest I don't clearly understand all parameters behind.
I'd also like to know why I was not able to create Smartcoin wth permissions witnesses/committee permissions?
@kingslanding I like some things in Coingecko approach, guys did a huge job, but (1) lack of really meaningful assets like Factom, Synereo, Augur, etc., (2) incorrect methodology of cap calculation (like CMC, cutted Ripple, Stellar, Storj supply and as result artificial overvaluation) and (3) non natural or dumb logic of weighting. As result you can see Litecoin (which is stagnating even against USD) in the 3d place and beautiful and really growing (in terms of account and transactions) BitShares at 9th place, or Vertcoin (! what the hell) is 13 and Storj which is awesome at 25 position. You can compare Coingecko with our results if you sort by rating on https://cyber.fund and you'll see a difference.
Update:
Our rating has some obvious fuckups, but they are because of content which is in work though.
There is plenty of ways to weight an index. In the crypto currencies world, there will be probably, in the future, lots of indexes.First nothing was actually created yet. I've just was curious how I can use in what I invested almost two years ago :-) We have our own methodology we are working for 2 years already which was published long time ago :-) I don't understand what you are worrying about really :-)
For now, I have a good one running since july 2015 and giving an acurate information about the evolution of the crypto currencies in a global way vs fiat money. I just have to make the economical input information scripts a little more reliable and create the smartcoin. It probbaly can be done in a matter of days.
I made this thread to brainstorm with this community on the index before creating it. When I see that 21xhipster rushed into creating some sort of Bit20 without understanding fully the details of it, I feel that I shouldn't have share publicly my idea about the index I was going to create.
BitShares is a free market place, everyone is free to do whatever he wants on it. I knew there were the possibility that someone could try to create an index before I do.
Anyway, from now on, I won't share any more details on the index composition and structure, nor the website and other related projects. I'll only participate to the debate and brainstorm to avoid giving to much information. The bit20 website is also disable at the moment, it will be available again soon, after I remove the sensitive information from tne public side.
There is plenty of ways to weight an index. In the crypto currencies world, there will be probably, in the future, lots of indexes.First nothing was actually created yet. I've just was curious how I can use in what I invested almost two years ago :-) We have our own methodology we are working for 2 years already which was published long time ago :-) I don't understand what you are worrying about really :-)
For now, I have a good one running since july 2015 and giving an acurate information about the evolution of the crypto currencies in a global way vs fiat money. I just have to make the economical input information scripts a little more reliable and create the smartcoin. It probbaly can be done in a matter of days.
I made this thread to brainstorm with this community on the index before creating it. When I see that 21xhipster rushed into creating some sort of Bit20 without understanding fully the details of it, I feel that I shouldn't have share publicly my idea about the index I was going to create.
BitShares is a free market place, everyone is free to do whatever he wants on it. I knew there were the possibility that someone could try to create an index before I do.
Anyway, from now on, I won't share any more details on the index composition and structure, nor the website and other related projects. I'll only participate to the debate and brainstorm to avoid giving to much information. The bit20 website is also disable at the moment, it will be available again soon, after I remove the sensitive information from tne public side.
Holy crap! The War of Indexes has started. Strip your rockets gentlemen, aim, charge!Lol ;p
Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?
At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.
+5% +5% +5% for the initiative !!!
some thoughts...
I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading... And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....
if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...
I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.
trade volume is also easily faked
You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?
Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?
At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.
You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?
except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...
Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?
At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.
Agree with you, at this moment 10 will be better.
I don't understand the difference between permissions and flags, it seems the same to me ...If you have permissions enabled you MAY use those features but don't need to do so ..
I'm still wondering about the default % of these two, is that seem ok for the index ?
Force settlement offset 1%
Max force settle vol 20%
You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?
except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...
That's why I first consider the MC, because it's the only thing you can't fake. The only way to manipulate the MC is by pouring your money in the coin ;p
I don't understand the difference between permissions and flags, it seems the same to me ...If you have permissions enabled you MAY use those features but don't need to do so ..
You can ACTUALLY enable a feature by enabling the corresponding FLAG!
Note, that, once you have disabled a PERMISSION!! you cannot re-enable it. It is like an indefinite opt-out!
I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?
I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?
Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?
It seems that way !I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?
Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?
Thanks, it makes sense to keep them all "enable" then.I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?
Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?
If you disable a permission, you can not enable it back again.
If you only disable a flag, you can enable it back.
So, until you are 100% sure, just keep all permissions enabled
I would like to see other smartcoins like this:
POW10 for 10 most valued pure Proof of Work coins
POS10 for 10 most valued pure Proof of Stake coins
DPOS3 - how many DPOS coins we have? 3 - Bitshares, Muse, Lisk or more?
IMO DPOS3 would be awesome. That would be a way of trading a Lisk before anyone else :) That also would be a great promotion for BTS and MUSE :)
To be honest... I think BIT20 is a great idea... personally I think i has to growth. The problem is, that if all people will think that, no one will short bit20. In my opinion DOPS will be great speculative market for LISK! :)
Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php)
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php)
Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php)
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php)
broken link, scam feelings
A few posts after that one with the links I said that I was disabling the links to the web site in construction until it's finished.
Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php)
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php)
broken link, scam feelings
#sharebits "hcf27" 1 KUDOS
Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php)
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php)
broken link, scam feelings
hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...
#sharebits "hcf27" 1 KUDOS
Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php)
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php)
broken link, scam feelings
hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...
(Second intent, I deleted the past reply, I wrote kudos and not KUDOS, I hope it'll work this time)
No it's just a social token I made months ago to "+5%" in the forum.#sharebits "hcf27" 1 KUDOS
Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php)
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php (http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php)
broken link, scam feelings
hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...
(Second intent, I deleted the past reply, I wrote kudos and not KUDOS, I hope it'll work this time)
It didnt work but you can just send it to my user on the DEX which is also hcf27
Is this KUDOS going to be the asset for supporting smart20?
I would appreciate any kind of help here since i simply don't have a windows machine here
IIRC, EstefannTT is experiencing some python related issues under windows ..I'm not sure you received my private masseage on telegram ..
In essence, the GrapheneLibraries that are required to run feed scripts in python require some dependencies that seem to be difficult to deal with under windwos.
I would appreciate any kind of help here since i simply don't have a windows machine here
@EstefanTT got an Ubuntu machine set up for this project, I think he has website ready and he was in the process of pushing the feed price to the testnet...So do I !!! My old netbook is now running ubuntu 15.10 and, as I couldn't run the script, I'm also about to have my good laptop dual boot with linux to run more tests.
Lets create a telegram group for this project, so that any1 with coding skills can help out
Xeroc, HCF27 and Valentin has been helping big deal !
Thanks guys !
I'm probably almost there, a little more patience ...
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Just to keep you in touch guys, I finally found a way to produce to price feed. I had a lot of problems but it should work very soon.
I set up un python script from xeroc with the value of the index from my website and mindphlux kindly agreed to run it.
As soon as mindphlux find the time to test and run it, if there is no more unexpected problems, the index should be alive and ready to be trade.
I will start a new official thread for Bittwenty as soon as the feed price is updated. The web site is also done and is just wainting to be made official.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
wanted to chime in, too :)Thanks !!! I will !
very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!
wanted to chime in, too :)Thanks !!! I will !
very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!
I guess we won't wait much more. The script is in the Mindphlux hands ;)
This is just quick solution to avoid more delays. I have something better in the pipeline for publishing the price in a completely decentralised way but alowing me to add easily more code in the index revision system if needed without having to update the scripts with all the witnesses everytime.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
So do I.wanted to chime in, too :)Thanks !!! I will !
very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!
I guess we won't wait much more. The script is in the Mindphlux hands ;)
This is just quick solution to avoid more delays. I have something better in the pipeline for publishing the price in a completely decentralised way but alowing me to add easily more code in the index revision system if needed without having to update the scripts with all the witnesses everytime.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
can't wait to buy some!!! +5% +5% +5%
trade volume is also easily fakedI think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.
It depends what exchanges you reference I guess. You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?
(Coinmarketcap for example excludes the BTC exchanges with no fees from their calculations http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets )
You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?
except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...
That's why I first consider the MC, because it's the only thing you can't fake. The only way to manipulate the MC is by pouring your money in the coin ;p
A lot of cryptos claim to have X supply on the market but you can't be sure they really distributed them, so their market cap is inflated but this is often obvious by their much lower volume.
(As an extreme example, have an ICO for 100 million coins, raise 100 BTC but 99.9 BTC actually came anonymously from you. Now there's only 100 000 coins on the market you don't own. Building their price up to $1 a coin would be fairly cheap and now your DAC/Coin would be valued at $100 million, but it would be clear your market cap is inflated because of the low volume.)