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@EstefanTT I've confirmed your findings and updated the GUI accordingly, it will be included in the next release coming later today.I've also taken the time to update my Google doc explaining margin call mechanics, I believe it's now in sync with the current rules. Please review here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h9E6N9VECh48NKRQGFoPQsSwfZXT4p_TD3LT3CqeTYk/edit?usp=sharing
Little update: I was able to borrow BTWTY with real min collateral ratio. SQP * MCR requirement sits at GUI level.Just edit this line:https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene-ui/blob/master/web/app/components/Modal/BorrowModal.jsx#L191
@svk , when would be the next gui release ? Would you consider to rectify this issue ? Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
No forced settlementMCR: 175% (may increase to 200%)MSSR: 100.1%
Those facts come from my margin call experiment:I confirm that I was still NOT margin called at 176% of collateralization.Once at 175% I was margin called.I could not borrow BTWTY with less than 192.5% of collateralization.
Are you sure that the margin call is not triggered simply when collateral reach MCR * Price feed ? So currently 175% of the price feed.
There is actually no point to require minimum 192% (MCR*MSSR) starting collateral anymore. Before change in shorting rules (with old rules which are given in documentation) it did make sense, because margin call could be triggered at this threshold. Now minimum collateral can be set to MCR.
Quote from: nmywn on January 13, 2017, 12:07:38 am//Current situationThe minimum collateral (which is amount of BTS): Feed price * (1.1 *1.75) * DEBT .Shorter's ammount of BTS in deposit must be higher than that. Otherwise margin call is triggered for him.This means If you w'ont trigger any margin calls your (newX * newY) outcome can't be higher than current (1.1 *1.75). Increasing "1.1" while decreasing "1.75" looks like the only option. In other hand, MCR can't go to low if market is unstable and illiquid. Something for something, not much place for changes. Your margin call trigger price: COLLATERAL / DEBT / (1.1 * 1.75) //not displayed in dialog box, I think it should be. current margin call order price: 1.1 * Feed price // current yellow order price, if happenYour margin call order price: 1.1 * Your margin call trigger price // your yellow order price in the future.COLLATERAL is ammount of deposited BTSYou can check those equations by playing with BTWTY Margin dialog box.Are you sure that the margin call is not triggered simply when collateral reach MCR * Price feed ? So currently 175% of the price feed.Carefull that the documentation has mistakes ! I observed carefully how DestBest get its order margin called and it seems that he had to put a minimum of 192% to borrow its BTWTY but nothing happened until he reached 175% of collateral. Then, passing at 174% he has been margin call. Could you confirm it @DestBest ?
//Current situationThe minimum collateral (which is amount of BTS): Feed price * (1.1 *1.75) * DEBT .Shorter's ammount of BTS in deposit must be higher than that. Otherwise margin call is triggered for him.This means If you w'ont trigger any margin calls your (newX * newY) outcome can't be higher than current (1.1 *1.75). Increasing "1.1" while decreasing "1.75" looks like the only option. In other hand, MCR can't go to low if market is unstable and illiquid. Something for something, not much place for changes. Your margin call trigger price: COLLATERAL / DEBT / (1.1 * 1.75) //not displayed in dialog box, I think it should be. current margin call order price: 1.1 * Feed price // current yellow order price, if happenYour margin call order price: 1.1 * Your margin call trigger price // your yellow order price in the future.COLLATERAL is ammount of deposited BTSYou can check those equations by playing with BTWTY Margin dialog box.
Quote from: EstefanTT on January 11, 2017, 08:03:15 pmIf I set the MSSR at 140% and keep the MCR at 175% :1) The minimum collateral to borrow a BTWTY will be at 245% ( 140 * 175 ) ? 2) Is there a way to avoid asking for so much collateral ? 3) The margin call will be triggered at 175% of the price ?4) I won't trigger any margin call by increasing the MSSR because they will be triggered at 175% of the price feed ? 5) Once someone has less than 175% collateral, he will be margin call and its order will sit at 140% of the price feed ? 6) The price at which the margin call order sit in the market move with the price feed ?//Current situationThe minimum collateral (which is amount of BTS): Feed price * (1.1 *1.75) * DEBT .Shorter's ammount of BTS in deposit must be higher than that. Otherwise margin call is triggered for him.This means If you w'ont trigger any margin calls your (newX * newY) outcome can't be higher than current (1.1 *1.75). Increasing "1.1" while decreasing "1.75" looks like the only option. In other hand, MCR can't go to low if market is unstable and illiquid. Something for something, not much place for changes. Your margin call trigger price: COLLATERAL / DEBT / (1.1 * 1.75) //not displayed in dialog box, I think it should be. current margin call order price: 1.1 * Feed price // current yellow order price, if happenYour margin call order price: 1.1 * Your margin call trigger price // your yellow order price in the future.COLLATERAL is ammount of deposited BTSYou can check those equations by playing with BTWTY Margin dialog box.
If I set the MSSR at 140% and keep the MCR at 175% :1) The minimum collateral to borrow a BTWTY will be at 245% ( 140 * 175 ) ? 2) Is there a way to avoid asking for so much collateral ? 3) The margin call will be triggered at 175% of the price ?4) I won't trigger any margin call by increasing the MSSR because they will be triggered at 175% of the price feed ? 5) Once someone has less than 175% collateral, he will be margin call and its order will sit at 140% of the price feed ? 6) The price at which the margin call order sit in the market move with the price feed ?
Quote from: svk on January 07, 2017, 11:46:08 pmQuote from: yvv on January 07, 2017, 11:08:20 pmQuote from: svk on January 07, 2017, 09:44:19 pmNo he's correct, margin calls only happen once the call price goes below the feed price.Then documentation should be corrected, because it says that margin call is triggered when the call price is between feed price and SQPP.The documentation is a copy paste of a write up that I did before BM changed the mechanics to make it so that margin calls are only triggered when the call price goes below the feed price, there's a github issue for this in the graphene repo.Call price is DEBT * MCR / COLLATERAL.This is extremely confusing indeed ! If the documentation is not right on certain points, I really don't know where to go to find information to make myself able to take the right decisions. I need to change this parameter (MSSR) as soon as possible. I don't want to have this market in a dangerous position in the next high volatility event. Can you confirm a couple more think ? (and correct me if I'm wrong) If I set the MSSR at 140% and keep the MCR at 175% :1) The minimum collateral to borrow a BTWTY will be at 245% ( 140 * 175 ) ? 2) Is there a way to avoid asking for so much collateral ? 3) The margin call will be triggered at 175% of the price ?4) I won't trigger any margin call by increasing the MSSR because they will be triggered at 175% of the price feed ? 5) Once someone has less than 175% collateral, he will be margin call and its order will sit at 140% of the price feed ? 6) The price at which the margin call order sit in the market move with the price feed ?
Quote from: yvv on January 07, 2017, 11:08:20 pmQuote from: svk on January 07, 2017, 09:44:19 pmNo he's correct, margin calls only happen once the call price goes below the feed price.Then documentation should be corrected, because it says that margin call is triggered when the call price is between feed price and SQPP.The documentation is a copy paste of a write up that I did before BM changed the mechanics to make it so that margin calls are only triggered when the call price goes below the feed price, there's a github issue for this in the graphene repo.Call price is DEBT * MCR / COLLATERAL.
Quote from: svk on January 07, 2017, 09:44:19 pmNo he's correct, margin calls only happen once the call price goes below the feed price.Then documentation should be corrected, because it says that margin call is triggered when the call price is between feed price and SQPP.
No he's correct, margin calls only happen once the call price goes below the feed price.
[...] This means that MCR>=MSSR.
Margin calls only happen once the call price goes below the feed price.Once you get margin called, the order will execute UP TO the sqp price, think of it as a premium with an upper limit.
I think you're wrong. Margin call wil trigger if your collateral < 192.5% - that's why you cannot open position.
I can't see why MCR can't be lower than SQP.
Quote from: nmywn on January 06, 2017, 01:58:49 pmQuote from: Geneko on January 05, 2017, 11:33:05 pmI understand it this way:SQP ( Squeeze protection price) is 10%, force buying back discount range.At 175% collateral x 1.1(SQP) =192% to feed price, marging call trigers buying back in 175-192% range, meaning, if for instance in bitBTC market:BTS/bitBTC feed price is 250,000 or bitBTC/BTS is 0.00000400, everyone who owns 1 bitBTC needs to lock 250,000x192%=480,000 colateral.If it doesn't have enough , then it is forced to buy back bitBTC in price range of 1.1x250,000=275,000 - 250,000 BTS/bitBTCor 0.000003636-0.00000400 bitBTC/BTS price range.As feed price moves down, SQP moves with it through order book.Yeah, me too.So in case BTWTY, something extreme like this would do the job: SQP aka MSSR = 1.5MCR = 1.1 (or even lower)It will force shorters to cover called positions at whatever price market offer up to 1.5 * feed price. What if market selling higher than 1.5*feed? It's mean SQP is to low and ASSET is no longer covered, because margin calls cannot be executed.In my opinion SQP is the thing to mess around.Edit: This may not work. MCR should not be set lower than MSSR, because in this case the situation is possible when there is not enough collateral to buy margin call order at SQP price. Correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: Geneko on January 05, 2017, 11:33:05 pmI understand it this way:SQP ( Squeeze protection price) is 10%, force buying back discount range.At 175% collateral x 1.1(SQP) =192% to feed price, marging call trigers buying back in 175-192% range, meaning, if for instance in bitBTC market:BTS/bitBTC feed price is 250,000 or bitBTC/BTS is 0.00000400, everyone who owns 1 bitBTC needs to lock 250,000x192%=480,000 colateral.If it doesn't have enough , then it is forced to buy back bitBTC in price range of 1.1x250,000=275,000 - 250,000 BTS/bitBTCor 0.000003636-0.00000400 bitBTC/BTS price range.As feed price moves down, SQP moves with it through order book.Yeah, me too.So in case BTWTY, something extreme like this would do the job: SQP aka MSSR = 1.5MCR = 1.1 (or even lower)It will force shorters to cover called positions at whatever price market offer up to 1.5 * feed price. What if market selling higher than 1.5*feed? It's mean SQP is to low and ASSET is no longer covered, because margin calls cannot be executed.In my opinion SQP is the thing to mess around.
I understand it this way:SQP ( Squeeze protection price) is 10%, force buying back discount range.At 175% collateral x 1.1(SQP) =192% to feed price, marging call trigers buying back in 175-192% range, meaning, if for instance in bitBTC market:BTS/bitBTC feed price is 250,000 or bitBTC/BTS is 0.00000400, everyone who owns 1 bitBTC needs to lock 250,000x192%=480,000 colateral.If it doesn't have enough , then it is forced to buy back bitBTC in price range of 1.1x250,000=275,000 - 250,000 BTS/bitBTCor 0.000003636-0.00000400 bitBTC/BTS price range.As feed price moves down, SQP moves with it through order book.
This is how I understand the documentation with the current parameters:MCR = Minimum Collateral Ration = 175%MSSR = Maximum Short Squeeze Ratio = 110% (SQPR in the doc)PF = Price FeedCR = Collateral RatioYou can NOT open a short position with a CR inferior to 192.5% (1.1 * 175%)You get margin called when your CR goes to 175%Your margin call will sit at 110% of the PF^Correct me if I'm wrong
I suppose that the current "yellow" order will stay in orderbook even if SQP will change. Just guessing.What is wrong with conclusion that BTWTY is currently in the ongoing black swan event.
I don't understand why holders aren't selling? Holders belive that price will go up, but if this happen they get rect by black swan and as long as i know we don't have mechanism (yet) to cover holders even at loos. So while price of ASSET is rising, after black swan they get nothing or better to say minus 100%.
It will force shorters to cover called positions at whatever price market offer up to 1.5 * feed price. What if market selling higher than 1.5*feed? It's mean SQP is to low and ASSET is no longer covered, because margin calls cannot be executed.In my opinion SQP is the thing to mess around.
The shorter can't short with 175.1% collateral !!! The minimum is 175% * 110% = 192%The collateral can go below of 192% as the price moves. When it reach 175% it gets margin call and tries to buy at 110% of the price feed.
Do you also need to adjust MCR if you change MSSR?
I mean raising MSSR takes the leverage away from shorters. And some of them will suddenly get into the margin call zone. Changing MSSR from high to low is fine, no harm to nobody, it is changing the other way around that can piss off some people.
Quote from: yvv on January 05, 2017, 08:41:47 pmQuote from: EstefanTT on January 05, 2017, 08:34:09 pmQuote from: nmywn on January 05, 2017, 08:08:26 pmQuote from: yvv on January 05, 2017, 05:35:38 pm And if condition for margin call is met, it does not take the best sell offer event if there is liquidity. I have a hard time to understand why is it done this way.but in docs: The squeeze protection price acts as a price ceiling, meaning the forced margin order will not execute at a very high price in an illiquid market.That part makes sense. Without this rule, in an illiquid market, there would be no limit to the price the margin call order would buy back the asset.I understand this part. But why not just take the best offer below SQP?If I'm not wrong, in the snapshot we can see that it's actually trying to buy the best offer below SQP. The problem is that the SQP is set at 110% and the first sellers are at 144,000BTS/BTWTY (around 150% of the feed price).
Quote from: EstefanTT on January 05, 2017, 08:34:09 pmQuote from: nmywn on January 05, 2017, 08:08:26 pmQuote from: yvv on January 05, 2017, 05:35:38 pm And if condition for margin call is met, it does not take the best sell offer event if there is liquidity. I have a hard time to understand why is it done this way.but in docs: The squeeze protection price acts as a price ceiling, meaning the forced margin order will not execute at a very high price in an illiquid market.That part makes sense. Without this rule, in an illiquid market, there would be no limit to the price the margin call order would buy back the asset.I understand this part. But why not just take the best offer below SQP?
Quote from: nmywn on January 05, 2017, 08:08:26 pmQuote from: yvv on January 05, 2017, 05:35:38 pm And if condition for margin call is met, it does not take the best sell offer event if there is liquidity. I have a hard time to understand why is it done this way.but in docs: The squeeze protection price acts as a price ceiling, meaning the forced margin order will not execute at a very high price in an illiquid market.That part makes sense. Without this rule, in an illiquid market, there would be no limit to the price the margin call order would buy back the asset.
Quote from: yvv on January 05, 2017, 05:35:38 pm And if condition for margin call is met, it does not take the best sell offer event if there is liquidity. I have a hard time to understand why is it done this way.but in docs: The squeeze protection price acts as a price ceiling, meaning the forced margin order will not execute at a very high price in an illiquid market.
And if condition for margin call is met, it does not take the best sell offer event if there is liquidity. I have a hard time to understand why is it done this way.
A margin call will occur any time the lowest ask is higher than the call price and lower than the SQPP. This has several consequences, as we will see below. It can create some very strange situations, and also force the margin called orders to “buy high”.
IMO, it should be a huge number instead, because shorts can always add collateral if they are paying attention.
One of the problems I see is that right now, with bittwenty growing fast there is a large premium. When it will have a price correction or BTS price will rise, this premium will shrink and 150% will maybe be way too much.
My opinion? Shorts need to watch their collateral ratios. Set it to 500% MSSR to keep the market liquid and safe for all!