BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rune on December 16, 2014, 12:43:05 am
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First of all I don't see all the drama that's coming out now as a reason to be bearish on BTS. Bitshares is still on track to be the best crypto product once it launches next year, and there is a huge pool of talented marketers preparing in nullstreet now, even if it turns out that the official marketing team had nothing all along. In fact I think many people will see it as a bull sign if the marketing can finally start over and get fixed.
The violent reaction were seeing against the marketing team now is a result of months of pent up frustration. This time it's not going to blow over by itself, it will continue until the community has gotten its minimum requirement: transparency.
I'd like to propose that the community appoints one of the community marketers from nullstreet to do a full "audit", so that we can finally get answers to the long standing questions that have continuously been ignored:
How much has the marketing team been paid so far, counting both bonuses and salary? (Exact numbers)
What's the bonus system in place for Brian? (Exact numbers, exact result metrics, no vague answers)
What has Brian and murderistics marketing and business development actions been so far (no vague answers, we want specific steps taken and specific deals or results)
What plans do Brian and murderistic have for the next 6 months? (These plans do not have to be made public, but the auditor has to see EVERYTHING and pass his opinion on to the community)
Is there anything in the works for fixing the website (currently a wordpress theme)?
The community has clearly had enough of the inherently contradictory secret keeping of what is supposed to be the marketing team for a DAC. We're so insanely tired of vague promises I can hardly put it into words. It's time finally treat stakeholders as owners and give them the straight answers they deserve. Once these answers are put forth to the community, the community can decide if the plans for the remaining marketing AGS funds should be changed (options could include putting them into transparent multisig or burning them since delegates now fulfill the role of funding anyway).
If we act now to finally get transparency in our marketing effort, we can still have plenty of time to prepare a huge marketing push for when the full node and mobile wallets are ready, in a way that is transparent (forced by delegate funding) and that the community will be satisfied with (because it will be done by community members).
IMO the most obvious person to do an audit would be methodX, considering he is the one who finally got the community marketing effort going in the first place, and is himself a marketing professional.
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^^ This would be very cleansing of the atmosphere and constitute a consolidation of energy for a big push forward.
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I'd be happy to audit the marketing team.
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I'd be happy to audit the marketing team.
I would be very happy if you did provided you were given full access.
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Thanks.
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This is absolutely needed. +5% x 1,000,000.
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Let's do it.
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Audit a good idea. See if they concur with BM's assessment. However, auditors are usually independet and vetted for conflicts of interest. Methodx may stand to benefit from a harsh assessment...not sure about Charles as I came here after he left already.
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If you're going to host a proper audit, then I'd suggest the following:
- Select an odd number of auditors from the community who do not have a direct connection to the current marketing team
- Provide the auditors with unrestricted access to all relevant emails, skype logs, financial records, and paperwork pertaining to the subjects being audited
- Draft and sign a privacy and disclosure agreement for the auditors
- Solicit from the community a list of concerns and questions they want addressed
- Have the auditors draft a report containing at least the following sections:
- A monthly timeline of actions taken by the marketing team
- A financial summary and timeline of funds spent by and for marketing alongside supporting comments from the marketing team
- Summarize the marketing strategy(ies) pursued and how success was to be judged
- List the data sources marketing curated to measure effectiveness of their efforts
- Recommendations from the Auditors
- The final report should be publicly released and available to the entire community for review and comments. The marketing team should also have the freedom to first review the report prior to release in order to prepare a response to the findings.
That's off the top of my head. Probably more to cover.
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I'd be happy to audit the marketing team.
+5% I'd vote for Methodx or Hopkinson (or both) to do the audit.
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Audit a good idea. See if they concur with BM's assessment. However, auditors are usually independet and vetted for conflicts of interest. Methodx may stand to benefit from a harsh assessment...not sure about Charles as I came here after he left already.
+5% I also hate accounting. I can give a competent cost analysis on his marketing expenditures though.
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+5% I also hate accounting. I can give a competent cost analysis on his marketing expenditures though.
The guy to handle the accounting would be Dr. Charles Evans.
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This would be the perfect time to attempt to bring Andreas onto the Bitshares team by offering him a purposeful delegate position.
Sent from the tiny wrinkles in my brain via mind bullets!
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This would be the perfect time to attempt to bring Andreas onto the Bitshares team and offering him a purposeful delegate position.
Sent from the tiny wrinkles in my brain via mind bullets!
Well how much do you guys want to pay? Sky is the limit if the budget matches lol.
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If you're going to host a proper audit, then I'd suggest the following:
- Select an odd number of auditors from the community who do not have a direct connection to the current marketing team
- Provide the auditors with unrestricted access to all relevant emails, skype logs, financial records, and paperwork pertaining to the subjects being audited
- Draft and sign a privacy and disclosure agreement for the auditors
- Solicit from the community a list of concerns and questions they want addressed
- Have the auditors draft a report containing at least the following sections:
- A monthly timeline of actions taken by the marketing team
- A financial summary and timeline of funds spent by and for marketing alongside supporting comments from the marketing team
- Summarize the marketing strategy(ies) pursued and how success was to be judged
- List the data sources marketing curated to measure effectiveness of their efforts
- Recommendations from the Auditors
- The final report should be publicly released and available to the entire community for review and comments. The marketing team should also have the freedom to first review the report prior to release in order to prepare a response to the findings.
That's off the top of my head. Probably more to cover.
Good Plan.
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All we need to know is what Brian and his team have been working on if anything. We need to hear of what content has been created. Obviously they have been developing things waiting for the 1.0 release and people from the community need to be shown this.
We don't need multiple people having access to their email and skype logs and other things. We just need to see the work they have done in preparation.
We're not trying to uncover a crime.
This elaborate audit thing will just get us away from what is a quite simple situation. Brian should be able to show all the work he has done in preperation. If he can't, then remove his bonus program because it is obvious our donations are not going towards what was anticipated when people donated. Then we re-appropriate the yet to be transferred donations to something that shows far more potential effectiveness and value.
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I think there needs to be transparency with regards to the Western Marketing bonus programme and an opportunity for shareholders to have a say in how the remaining amount gets allocated.
I'd also like to have a trusted member give an honest evaluation of the 1.0 marketing push & Method's opinion is probably the one I'd be interested in most.
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what can we do if they dont comply with the audit? what delegates do thry run?
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Ok first of all this is not a community issue nor some great crime.
This is my issue because I was the one who hired them.
There will be no audit or committee. It is my job to make the best of the situation.
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Wasn't he paid with community funds? Namely AGS?
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Wasn't he paid with community funds? Namely AGS?
No. He was paid with donated funds.
A better question for us all to be asking is how Brian Page's weight compares to that of a duck.
Quoting myself from another thread:
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Also, everyone please bear in mind that agreements already made with Brian Page are effectively a sunk cost. Complaining about them will not make them go away, and destructive criticism can only reduce the return on that cost, if it has any impact at all. The only logical response in my opinion is to give him the benefit of the doubt and support him with constructive criticism, advice, and at least any assistance that does not hinder other efforts. I honestly believe that Brian wants to help make BitShares more successful, but even if you believe he doesn't, attacks against him accomplish nothing.
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Ok first of all this is not a community issue nor some great crime.
This is my issue because I was the one who hired them.
There will be no audit or committee. It is my job to make the best of the situation.
Thank you!! Hope you people can stop hammering on Brian and start doing constructive stuff again ..
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Wasn't he paid with community funds? Namely AGS?
[/quote
There are no community funds. No strings attached donations. I try to do the best by them, but it isn't always possible to know in advance who will deliver.
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I I think everyone just needs to relax... Obviously the crypto bear market is weighing on everyone. Bp is more of a regular guy trying to target regular people. It would make no sense if he started marketing bts to Joe six pack before 1.0... It would do much more damage if the main marketing push was going on while all these changes and forks are happening. How is bp suppose to constantly explain to people that network shutdowns, rebranding, air drops and that it takes 3 transactions to buy bts and 4 to buy bitusd is normal. U guys were all on board with his marketing strategy earlier and a from what I can tell the plan has been consistent.
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I I think everyone just needs to relax... Obviously the crypto bear market is weighing on everyone. Bp is more of a regular guy trying to target regular people. It would make no sense if he started marketing bts to Joe six pack before 1.0... It would do much more damage if the main marketing push was going on while all these changes and forks are happening. How is bp suppose to constantly explain to people that network shutdowns, rebranding, air drops and that it takes 3 transactions to buy bts and 4 to buy bitusd is normal. U guys were all on board with his marketing strategy earlier and a from what I can tell the plan has been consistent.
I have strong thoughts on what could have been done prior, however, it doesn't help us today. Nullstreet is pressing forward, BP is meeting with BM, Adam is updating the community and Method-X is requesting coordinating efforts with Adam.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12329.0
Let's start here.
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I I think everyone just needs to relax... Obviously the crypto bear market is weighing on everyone. Bp is more of a regular guy trying to target regular people. It would make no sense if he started marketing bts to Joe six pack before 1.0... It would do much more damage if the main marketing push was going on while all these changes and forks are happening. How is bp suppose to constantly explain to people that network shutdowns, rebranding, air drops and that it takes 3 transactions to buy bts and 4 to buy bitusd is normal. U guys were all on board with his marketing strategy earlier and a from what I can tell the plan has been consistent.
I have strong thoughts on what could have been done prior, however, it doesn't help us today. Nullstreet is pressing forward, BP is meeting with BM, Adam is updating the community and Method-X is requesting coordinating efforts with Adam.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12329.0
Let's start here.
+5%
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I would NOT alienate Brian. He still has some tricks up his sleeve and we will need them. Let him do what he does best and let other people do other things they can do better. Brian still has a part to play, perhaps a very important one as the 1.0 client debuts.
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Ok first of all this is not a community issue nor some great crime.
This is my issue because I was the one who hired them.
There will be no audit or committee. It is my job to make the best of the situation.
Not an audit as such, just let a trusted member of the community and a look through and see if they have really got anything to show.
What are your thoughts on Bitreserve?
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With the network outage today I am actually quite happy that the marketing push has not happened yet.
Get 1.0 first - and get it soon.
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Wasn't he paid with community funds? Namely AGS?
There are no community funds. No strings attached donations. I try to do the best by them, but it isn't always possible to know in advance who will deliver.
This makes me sick. You are Bitshares. We are Bitshares. We are a community whether you like it or not and our money is now your money. Just because you control the flow of money doesn't negate the fact at it was ours first. And it was OURS for you to do what WE agreed you would do.
I think you are ignoring the fact that AGS wasn't enough to keep you on BTSX alone, but you'd rather dilute BTSX holders in order for you to siphon off more theoretical money to keep you on the team you originally asked for money from.
In other words:
Hey bob, we have this cool product we can make. If you give us X amount of money, we can develope it... Oh Bob, Alice has offered X amount to help them, but we can still help you if you devalue your share by 20%. This way we get some of the 20% and then secure future income if we actually deliver. Pay no mind to our original agreement and everything still sitting in "unmarked accounts". We never said we would maintain your network, we would just get it going. If we want to clone it and keep our team working we will do it under a different name. After all, we gave up $150K jobs at google (no offense Toast, should have never made that comment) and our output doesn't equate to anything remotely acceptable to the opportunity cost we forgave going in to this project. Of course that is excluding the multi millions of dollars you gave us to begin with. But you have no say in what we do with that money. Just saying.
What amazes me is that "Satoshi Nakamoto" was able to do what "I3" can't. And that is, see a true anomaly in finance Pierce through Walls and barriers without worrying about who pays him for his contributions. Maybe early coins future wealth had him, or maybe altruism. I see neither here. I divest at a loss with a loss for further words....
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All we need to know is what Brian and his team have been working on if anything. We need to hear of what content has been created. Obviously they have been developing things waiting for the 1.0 release and people from the community need to be shown this.
We don't need multiple people having access to their email and skype logs and other things. We just need to see the work they have done in preparation.
We're not trying to uncover a crime.
This elaborate audit thing will just get us away from what is a quite simple situation. Brian should be able to show all the work he has done in preperation. If he can't, then remove his bonus program because it is obvious our donations are not going towards what was anticipated when people donated. Then we re-appropriate the yet to be transferred donations to something that shows far more potential effectiveness and value.
+5%
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What amazes me is that "Satoshi Nakamoto" was able to do what "I3" can't. And that is, see a true anomaly in finance Pierce through Walls and barriers without worrying about who pays him for his contributions. Maybe early coins future wealth had him, or maybe altruism. I see neither here. I divest at a loss with a loss for further words....
This here alone shows you have no clue what you are talking about. Bitshares is far far beyond the Bitcoin reference client. If you are talking about adoption, then I'm not sure what your expectations are... or why.
Give me a mid level machine shop and I can make you a Model-T. I can't make you a modern car. Understand?
I know you love to show up anytime Charles H has to get his digs in and faces resistance, but you spew such absurdity that your comments are largely now irrelevant even to negative people such as myself.
As I believe Empirical pointed out, you might have more listeners around here if you weren't always 100% negative. We'll see if you are truly at a loss for words. Hard to imagine that though...
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With the network outage today I am actually quite happy that the marketing push has not happened yet.
Get 1.0 first - and get it soon.
+5%
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Ok first of all this is not a community issue nor some great crime.
This is my issue because I was the one who hired them.
There will be no audit or committee. It is my job to make the best of the situation.
It really depends on your perspective.
Please be careful, and objective.
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Some business investment and decisions are good, others are bad. Every entrepreneur at some point has to live with a couple of bad decisions. What deal has been struck between BM and the marketing team can't just be voided, as there was probably nothing related to "if you do not deliver, than this will happen". What has been done is done, and the millions of BTS and the 100k$+ in salary paid can't be "unspent".
As some have said, let them to their job, as they don't get paid a salary by I3 anymore and they have all the incentives in the world to deliver. If they get the market cap equal to Bitcoin market cap they'll all be millionaires. If they don't, then they will lose a hell of an opportunity, as all they have to do is market an awesome product.
I understand Brian to stay away from the forum right now, as he's going to get rocks thrown at him the minute he comes here. He may not have struck any public deals, but he has made business contacts, and I wouldn't be suprised he was involved in getting the deals with some of the on/off-ramps we heard about, but that are still being set-up.
His mistake has been the lack of communication with the community and also the lack of small accomplishments that get the community reassured. What could be done though, for a start, would be for him to come over on this forum with his team and start interacting and stop being so secretive.
I don't give a damn about his deal with BM as it is what it is, but I sure want to know what is current plan is, and what are the next steps (except waiting for the 1.0 version). And knowing that, it wouldn't hurt if he got in touch with the community marketing team to work with them in order to have a better coordination between the different marketing teams. All those things would help a lot IMO, and people might stop asking for his head on a spike.
And he needs to manage his PR badly, like right now.
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Ok first of all this is not a community issue nor some great crime.
This is my issue because I was the one who hired them.
There will be no audit or committee. It is my job to make the best of the situation.
How can you not consider this a community issue, everyone here stands to gain or lose right alongside with you?
This isn't your cross to bare. You can't be atlas and just hold the weight of Bitshares on your shoulders or it will only lead to more problems.
Please at least consider letting a member from nullstreet (many their have proven themselves) lesion between the current marketing and the community effort. Nullstreet is all ready providing weekly
updates. It isn't a audit its a assessment of where the official arm is and tieing it into what the community is doing their to be more productive as a whole.
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Wasn't he paid with community funds? Namely AGS?
No. He was paid with donated funds.
A better question for us all to be asking is how Brian Page's weight compares to that of a duck.
Quoting myself from another thread:
...
Also, everyone please bear in mind that agreements already made with Brian Page are effectively a sunk cost. Complaining about them will not make them go away, and destructive criticism can only reduce the return on that cost, if it has any impact at all. The only logical response in my opinion is to give him the benefit of the doubt and support him with constructive criticism, advice, and at least any assistance that does not hinder other efforts. I honestly believe that Brian wants to help make BitShares more successful, but even if you believe he doesn't, attacks against him accomplish nothing.
LOL!
"A WITCH! A WITCH!"
"Good! And what do we do with a witch?"
"BURN EM!!"
(Classic Python)
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What's done is done. We should not cause more distractions by insisting that official marketing divulge any strategic plans that may already be in motion, lest we lose a competitive advantage. Fortunately, the most recent incentives for Bp's team were contingent in nature, so no deliverable means little additional cost. There may have been an opportunity cost, but again that's in the past, and insisting on an audit or disclosure of the past will not help recover that sunk cost. Keep in mind that some of the work that Bp was doing might involve discussions with on ramp/off ramp partners and might not be things they can talk about for now. Transparency is important, but demanding transparency about the past is not productive at this stage.
Besides, it sounds as if Adam is already reaching out to those doing community marketing. And who knows--the past official marketing efforts may yet deliver something.
Better to focus on other, more productive endeavors, like getting us to Client 1.0 and building awareness of BTS among the BTC and altcoin communities.
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I think the root of this problem is Brian's failure to engage the community on the same level as other core BTS team members, rather than a need to know what he has or has not done with funds.
Most of the BTS dev team has a high level of engagement with the community.
The community expects transparency, and so it should, however marketing is one area where it is not necessarily in the best interests of the shareholders to be transparent.
Even Methodx took his marketing efforts to an invite-only forum... and his presence in the open forum has since diminished considerably.
Brian could do a better job of posting updates and being more active in the community.
That said, I think a forensic audit *after* Brian's marketing strategy goes live is a great idea and would certainly help with deciding who gets a marketing delegate position going forward...
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I think the root of this problem is Brian's failure to engage the community on the same level as other core BTS team members, rather than a need to know what he has or has not done with funds.
Most of the BTS dev team has a high level of engagement with the community.
The community expects transparency, and so it should, however marketing is one area where it is not necessarily in the best interests of the shareholders to be transparent.
Even Methodx took his marketing efforts to an invite-only forum... and his presence in the open forum has since diminished considerably.
Brian could do a better job of posting updates and being more active in the community.
That said, I think a forensic audit *after* Brian's marketing strategy goes live is a great idea and would certainly help with deciding who gets a marketing delegate position going forward...
I feel one of the major differences is Nullstreet provides weekly newsletters. We know it's essential the community knows the progress that's being made so they can offer feedback on the direction and critique the methods. I will still argue that business development needs to be kept quiet to protect the conversations between potential clients, marketing should be open. Nullstreet might be invite only, but there's 109 of us over there with 20-30 online at any given time.
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What does 'in light of recent events' mean? Did something actually happen or does this just refer to people bitching about the BP and the official marketing effort?
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This would be the perfect time to attempt to bring Andreas onto the Bitshares team by offering him a purposeful delegate position.
Sent from the tiny wrinkles in my brain via mind bullets!
Yes I agree someone should reach out to Andreas.
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This would be the perfect time to attempt to bring Andreas onto the Bitshares team by offering him a purposeful delegate position.
Sent from the tiny wrinkles in my brain via mind bullets!
Yes I agree someone should reach out to Andreas.
Andreas?
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This would be the perfect time to attempt to bring Andreas onto the Bitshares team by offering him a purposeful delegate position.
Sent from the tiny wrinkles in my brain via mind bullets!
Yes I agree someone should reach out to Andreas.
Andreas?
Andreas Antonopoulos
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What does 'in light of recent events' mean? Did something actually happen or does this just refer to people bitching about the BP and the official marketing effort?
It's people bitching... people who are way too in love with their investments and most likely betting more than they can afford to lose. An old trading rule is never fall in love, it clouds your judgement. This is very common though in almost every asset class.
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It's people bitching... people who are way too in love with their investments and most likely betting more than they can afford to lose. An old trading rule is never fall in love, it clouds your judgement. This is very common though in almost every asset class.
Yes, this is very true. It definitely lower the ability to profitably trade BTS, when you love it.
On the other hand, pretty much the only way to hold through the kinds of rises that sometimes happen in crypto, such as the 100x rises in bitcoin's past, are if you love it. Otherwise you would trade yourself out of the position after its up several hundred percent, and then the pullback never comes.
Maybe we will miss smaller gains, and then win very big eventually when BTS succeeds. Or maybe we will go down with the ship.
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What does 'in light of recent events' mean? Did something actually happen or does this just refer to people bitching about the BP and the official marketing effort?
It's people bitching... people who are way too in love with their investments and most likely betting more than they can afford to lose. An old trading rule is never fall in love, it clouds your judgement. This is very common though in almost every asset class.
Any complaints I've made I've backed up with a crap load of work on how I thought it should be done. For some, you might be right. My complaints were about transparency and actual measurements. I wish Brian the best in his future endeavors and equally excited about the momentum that's starting to form around Nullstreet initiatives.
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All we need to know is what Brian and his team have been working on if anything. We need to hear of what content has been created. Obviously they have been developing things waiting for the 1.0 release and people from the community need to be shown this.
We don't need multiple people having access to their email and skype logs and other things. We just need to see the work they have done in preparation.
We're not trying to uncover a crime.
This elaborate audit thing will just get us away from what is a quite simple situation. Brian should be able to show all the work he has done in preperation. If he can't, then remove his bonus program because it is obvious our donations are not going towards what was anticipated when people donated. Then we re-appropriate the yet to be transferred donations to something that shows far more potential effectiveness and value.
+5%
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