BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: xeroc on July 02, 2014, 02:14:12 pm
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Hey friends,
I start thinking about what a realistic initial price for a XTS would be.
Taking the XTS asset from the blockchain (test run7)
default (unlocked) >>> blockchain_get_asset XTS
{
"id": 0,
"symbol": "XTS",
"name": "BitShares XTS",
"description": "Stake in future BitShares X chains",
"public_data": null,
"issuer_account_id": 0,
"precision": 100000,
"current_share_supply": 199999281421126,
"maximum_share_supply": 1000000000000000,
"collected_fees": 953331802,
"registration_date": "20140701T000000"
}
yields a supply of 199999281421126 which is (afaik) 1999992814.21126 XTS.
The 28. feb loss in value for PTS was at least 15kUSD
How many PTS have existed on 2.28?
What is the ratio of PTS->XTS and BTC->XTS?
What your honest (not sure if this works out) price for your XTS?
I am thinking about buying some XTS (worth 5 BTC) right on launch and can't come up with a BTC to XTS price .. any help?
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
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I have some stats from that time:
PTS/BTC=0.0285
LTC/BTC=0.02514
(4,871 BTC = 2900,71 USD //14/02/22/20:57//UTC)
Feb 28th:
BTS/PTS=1,288319566
Total PTS supply: 1552409,862
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
By theory of economics, it would not change or "artificially inflate" the market cap. Market cap = total # of shares x value of one share, so if total # goes up, value of an individual share goes down and market cap stays the same
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5199.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5199.0)
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Wait, so registering a delegate will cost 20 XTS out of 2 billion, or 20 XTS out of 4 million ?
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Wait, so registering a delegate will cost 20 XTS out of 2 billion, or 20 XTS out of 4 million ?
interesting point !
PS the same question for the transaction fees?
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
Yes, because in my opinion prices like 1000 XTS are easier to deal with in the early days than prices of .001 after it gains bitcoin level acceptance.
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
By theory of economics, it would not change or "artificially inflate" the market cap. Market cap = total # of shares x value of one share, so if total # goes up, value of an individual share goes down and market cap stays the same
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).
I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?
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Wait, so registering a delegate will cost 20 XTS out of 2 billion, or 20 XTS out of 4 million ?
Registering a delegate costs a variable amount proportional to the amount of revenue one could hope to earn over 2 full weeks of operation. This changes as the transaction fees change.
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
By theory of economics, it would not change or "artificially inflate" the market cap. Market cap = total # of shares x value of one share, so if total # goes up, value of an individual share goes down and market cap stays the same
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).
I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?
No, you would not expect the cap to be higher just because the supply is higher because you would expect the price to be proportionally lower.
If the cap ends up higher it is because we guessed which "direction" people would be irrational, basically you would have to think "I have 1000 XTS so I like XTS more than if I had 0.001 at the same price so I will work harder to promote it" or some very indirect reasoning like that
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There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion? Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?
Yes, because in my opinion prices like 1000 XTS are easier to deal with in the early days than prices of .001 after it gains bitcoin level acceptance.
Ok
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Wait, so registering a delegate will cost 20 XTS out of 2 billion, or 20 XTS out of 4 million ?
Registering a delegate costs a variable amount proportional to the amount of revenue one could hope to earn over 2 full weeks of operation. This changes as the transaction fees change.
So, delegates will have an incentive to set high pay rate, at least at the beginning.
Btw, what is the pay rate, so that delegate will not dilute the network? 10?
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Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).
I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?
All coins will be available from the beginning, so nothing to do with marketcap. It doesn't matter with how much coin's you will start, at least theoretical.
Practical it matters like toast and other's mentioned and it has to do with usability and market psychology...
If you ask me 2 billion coins is a brilliant idea....
I give you one psychology example:
let's say 1 XTS = $ 0.03 Many investors would make the conclusion that it is still undervalued because for example NXT has a value of $0.06 and the majority maybe thing XTS=NXT or more... so they will buy until the price reach
$0.06 or more... Guess what? When it happens we will have double the NXT market cap ....because they have only 1 billion coins (not 2)... :) Many investors are looking only the price (not the market cap)...
just random thoughts :P
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Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).
I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?
All coins will be available from the beginning, so nothing to do with marketcap.
http://coinmarketcap.com/
Look at NXT vs DRK
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Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly...
Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.
The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.
After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)
Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).
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Just wondering if Bm is still going to use 2B BIP to map 4M XTS(bts)? or this design has been changed.
notes: 1% of XTS will be destroyed annually according to the I3 's whitepaper
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Just wondering if Bm is still going to use 2B BIP to map 4M XTS(bts)? or this design has been changed.
notes: 1% of XTS will be destroyed annually according to the I3 's whitepaper
Yes, that was original design but in an effort to remove price fixing the rate of destruction is now in the hands of shareholders who select the delegates and the delegates determine the burn rate.
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to remove price fixing the rate of destruction is now in the hands of shareholders
I did not understand this.. How is rate of destruction of shares related to price fixing?
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Same question.
bm,do you mean system generate new share to pay delegates instead of paying from tx fee
to remove price fixing the rate of destruction is now in the hands of shareholders
I did not understand this.. How is rate of destruction of shares related to price fixing?
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Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).
I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?
All coins will be available from the beginning, so nothing to do with marketcap.
http://coinmarketcap.com/
Look at NXT vs DRK
It makes no difference to market cap. XTS is just using a smaller unit of measurement.
An ounce of gold divided into two pieces will have same market cap as an ounce of gold divided into ten pieces.
To artificially inflate your market cap & so that you appear higher on coinmarketcap you have to get them to multiply the share price by more coins than there actually are.
-So for example Ripple had an artificially high market cap for a while as their share price was being multiplied by 100 Billion when only a 5-10 billion had actually been released.
- Auroracoin also had an artificially high market cap for a while as their share price was being multiplied by the total amount of coins there would be after all mining (and a full airdrop I believe.) When actually there were only a few thousand that had been released via mining at the time and no airdrop yet.
Darkcoin's & NXT valuations are fair relative to the amount of coins they have mined and released respectively.
(NXT I believe has some large initial whales so it's possible they could be withholding a market cap distorting amount from the market. However that is a separate issue, but whether NXT chose to divide their company into a Billion or a million shares initially as their standard unit of measurement makes no difference.)
Bitcoin for example has considered making the 'MilliBit' the new standard unit of measure, in which case there would be 13 billion Millibits, but making this change would not directly effect Bitcoins overall CAP.
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Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly...
Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.
The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.
After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)
Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).
I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?
Is that right?
If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least
$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.
(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)
Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr... :)
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Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly...
Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.
The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.
After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)
Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).
I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?
Is that right?
If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least
$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.
(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)
Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr... :)
Leaving aside that you math is wrong …with just a few decimal positions.
Do you want to make a bet?
Tell me what % of BTS XT you want to buy at $30 Mil market capitalization. (1% will be worth about $300,000; 0.1% will be $30,000 etc.; 0.001% will be $300)
The bet is the following:
- You will publish the percentage you want to buy at $30 Mil market cap. Then you will transfer the amount to an escrow that we both agree on.
- I will send the # shares equal to the % you wanted to buy (for you to withdraw) and I will get all the money in the escrow.
-Additionally, I will transfer your shares in 15 days or less after BTS X become liquid.
Sounds fair?
P.S. The bet is open to anybody having $30 mil capitalization expectations and wanting to buy less than 1%.
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Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly...
Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.
The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.
After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)
Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).
I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?
Is that right?
If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least
$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.
(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)
Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr... :)
Leaving aside that you math is wrong …with just a few decimal positions.
Do you want to make a bet?
Tell me what % of BTS XT you want to buy at $30 Mil market capitalization. (1% will be worth about $300,000; 0.1% will be $30,000 etc.; 0.001% will be $300)
The bet is the following:
- You will publish the percentage you want to buy at $30 Mil market cap. Then you will transfer the amount to an escrow that we both agree on.
- I will send the # shares equal to the % you wanted to buy (for you to withdraw) and I will get all the money in the escrow.
-Additionally, I will transfer your shares in 15 days or less after BTS X become liquid.
Sounds fair?
P.S. The bet is open to anybody having $30 mil capitalization expectations and wanting to buy less than 1%.
Do you really own 1%?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Close to...
edit1. I will buy the difference if somebody takes the whole bet.
... and those that can take me on this for sure ...will most like not do so.
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$20 or above/XTS sounds fair enough but assuming $7.50 / BTS seriously.... have some descent respect on DPOS.
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Up to the 28th of Feb 1 PTS = c1.3 XTS and 1 PTS was ranging between $15 - $20 if I remember correctly...
Therefore 1 XTS at that time should have been c$11 - $16.
The market has valued Bitshares BACK THEN a market cap of $44 mil - $64 mil before even having a finished product.
After all these delays and all these amazing improvements with DPOS. The initial market cap of Bitshares shouldn't be less than at least $80 mil and I think I am pessimistic here...Otherwise our long term investment in Bitshares was not a good one and we should have invested in NXT (that doesn't make sense sorry)
Concluding 1 XTS should not be less than $20 each (calculation based on 4 million PTS / AGS).
I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?
Is that right?
If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least
$30 Million divided by 2 Billion XTS = $0.015 per share.
(Or $7.5 x amount of BTS you have listed on AGS explorer)
Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr... :)
Leaving aside that you math is wrong …with just a few decimal positions.
Do you want to make a bet?
Tell me what % of BTS XT you want to buy at $30 Mil market capitalization. (1% will be worth about $300,000; 0.1% will be $30,000 etc.; 0.001% will be $300)
The bet is the following:
- You will publish the percentage you want to buy at $30 Mil market cap. Then you will transfer the amount to an escrow that we both agree on.
- I will send the # shares equal to the % you wanted to buy (for you to withdraw) and I will get all the money in the escrow.
-Additionally, I will transfer your shares in 15 days or less after BTS X become liquid.
Sounds fair?
P.S. The bet is open to anybody having $30 mil capitalization expectations and wanting to buy less than 1%.
I didn't say I would be buying at $30 million CAP :) I said I think that according to my maths that it should be at least that but I'm hoping as it's been so long people will want/need to sell. At what price I'd be buying will depend on many factors, for one according to you, it seems I need some better calculations :) (Also I know as a gambler usually when someone is very eager to make a bet, then chances are I must be very wrong... ;D )
Please help me with my maths :'( I asked 'Is that right?'
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Your math - @ 30 Mil cap (and 2 or 4 mil shares), one share is:
$15/$7.5 per share not $0.015...
But BTW I offered you a bet at the correct numbers.
Anyway it's all good :)... if your money are not where your mouth is :)
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Your math - @ 30 Mil cap (and 2 or 4 mil shares), one share is:
$15/$7.5 per share not $0.015...
But BTW I offered you a bet at the correct numbers.
Anyway it's all good :)... if your money are not where your mouth is :)
I think there will be 2 Billion XTS now. (2 000 000 000)
There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like 2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:
1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.
so $30 million CAP divided by 2 000 000 000 = $0.015 per XTS ?
(But each of the BTS you see on AGS explorer is when there 4 000 000. 2 000 000 000 divided by 4 000 000 = 500 and 500x$0.015 = $7.5, so at a 30 milllion CAP the original XTS would be $7.5 each.)
I still think that's right, but it is 4 am here.
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I think there will be 2 Billion XTS now. (2 000 000 000)
...............
so $30 million CAP divided by 2 000 000 000 = $0.015 per XTS ?
Sure,
at what price are you willing to buy ($amount/ %stake)
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I think there will be 2 Billion XTS now. (2 000 000 000)
...............
so $30 million CAP divided by 2 000 000 000 = $0.015 per XTS ?
Sure,
at what price are you willing to buy ($amount/ %stake)
I don't understand. Won't the bet involve too much trust from me?
I can give BTC to an escrow now. But you won't have XTS to trade till it is launched.
So if when XTS is launched the XTS price is high you just won't send me the XTS...?
(But if the XTS CAP is lower than 30 mil then you will be happy to send it and take my BTC from escrow..)
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What % do you want me to put now?
20% OK? (I can put 100% if you do not intend to go close to 1% of total shares).
Tell me how big you wanna go and I will offer you decent security deposit too.
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What % do you want me to put now?
20% OK? (I can put 100% if you do not intend to go close to 1% of total shares).
Tell me how big you wanna go and I will offer you decent security deposit too.
Im pretty sure I will buy more on the market if it's trading < $30 million after launch.
But I will not take your bet/offer. Thanks.
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Sure.
PM me if you change your mind.
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dream on with your buying price . Our BTS will surely be much higher than what you have just estimated. ::)
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dream on with your buying price . Our BTS will surely be much higher than what you have just estimated. ::)
Hug? How that?
To my calculations .. having 2 billion XTS each worth 20$ .. that totals $40 billion ... more than 4 times the total market cap of ALL coins .. that's sure not gonna happen
IMHO a realistic price would be around $0.025 per XTS
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dream on with your buying price . Our BTS will surely be much higher than what you have just estimated. ::)
I agree. I think the market cap will be $50-75 million myself to start.
But that doesn't mean I want to buy from Simeon @ 30 million, though he is probably an honest guy.
But his account was created mid-May and XTS was allocated at the end of Feb.
1% is also a very big stake/investment to have made...
Also to jump on and try sell it (much too eagerly) for a low valuation when I didn't ask specifically to buy from someone off-market, makes me think he wants to keep the perception low so he can buy more too.
If you did have a big stake his actions seem illogical. But I don't know.
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dream on with your buying price . Our BTS will surely be much higher than what you have just estimated. ::)
I agree. I think the market cap will be $50-75 million myself to start.
But that doesn't mean I want to buy from Simeon @ 30 million, though he is probably an honest guy.
But his account was created mid-May and XTS was allocated at the end of Feb.
1% is also a very big stake/investment to have made...
Also to jump on and try sell it (much too eagerly) for a low valuation when I didn't ask specifically to buy from someone off-market, makes me think he wants to keep the perception low so he can buy more too.
If you did have a big stake his actions seem illogical. But I don't know.
First – The bet is of the table now! Let that be clear.
I was trying to make several points .
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
Several factors are in play for the initial price (most not in favor of BTS). So taking the highest price that PTS ever was, when you must be fully aware of the reasons driving the price up at that moment, and to use those prices as a starting point of calculating BTS initial price is pretty optimistic. I personally see the initial price/capitalization at a range of 2X PTS to 1/3 PTS (meaning 2 to 15 Mil capitalization)
So, all in all, BTS may go to trillions someday, but this will be some day in the more distant future.
As for my side of the story – I have a lot of paper losses and missed opportunities ever since I invested in Bitshares. What is worse, I envision even more of those in the near future. So locking my profits/losses at near 0 is not the worse deal for me... :)
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so all in all we agree that irrespective of no of coins the total market cap should be $40 - $75 mil upon launching...I hope that we are all on the same page here to believe that it should be at least $100 mil by the end of the year especially if Bitcoin gets pumped
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First – The bet is of the table now! Let that be clear.
I was trying to make several points .
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
Several factors are in play for the initial price (most not in favor of BTS). So taking the highest price that PTS ever was, when you must be fully aware of the reasons driving the price up at that moment, and to use those prices as a starting point of calculating BTS initial price is pretty optimistic. I personally see the initial price/capitalization at a range of 2X PTS to 1/3 PTS (meaning 2 to 15 Mil capitalization)
How do you say that? Based on the current PTS price? Shouldn't you value the investment at the PTS price back then? Back then Bitshares was valued 30-60 mil and bitcoin was ranging from $600-$1,200. So assuming bitcoin same price now of $600 the market cap should no way be less than 30 mil taking into account all the improvements so far and the time we have locked our profits...If people sell below that and realise their losses then I don't think BTS will have much of the future...
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so all in all we agree that irrespective of no of coins the total market cap should be $40 - $75 mil upon launching...I hope that we are all on the same page here to believe that it should be at least $100 mil by the end of the year especially if Bitcoin gets pumped
I obviously disagree - 2 to 15 Mil is my prediction.
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I hope you are wrong or else I am f...d :(
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What % do you want me to put now?
20% OK? (I can put 100% if you do not intend to go close to 1% of total shares).
Tell me how big you wanna go and I will offer you decent security deposit too.
The only way it is a fair deal is if you put up something like 500% deposit. That way if XTS comes out real high and you don't send the XTS the other person still makes the return they should get. Use someone at I3 like BM as escrow if he'd bother with it.
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What % do you want me to put now?
20% OK? (I can put 100% if you do not intend to go close to 1% of total shares).
Tell me how big you wanna go and I will offer you decent security deposit too.
The only way it is a fair deal is if you put up something like 500% deposit. That way if XTS comes out real high and you don't send the XTS the other person still makes the return they should get. Use someone at I3 like BM as escrow if he'd bother with it.
Sounds fair (Unfortunately I cannot deposit 500% my holdings, not even 100% if he wanted to go a whole 1%).
And thanks for the advice. The deal is off though.
edit: We could have done something else (using BM) –ask him to move the balances from my account to his accounts in the genesis block!
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edit: We could have done something else (using BM) –ask him to move the balances from my account to his accounts in the genesis block!
Possible or not... LOL
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edit: We could have done something else (using BM) –ask him to move the balances from my account to his accounts in the genesis block!
Possible or not... LOL
Sure as hell possible... assuming he has access to any text editor. :D
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dream on with your buying price . Our BTS will surely be much higher than what you have just estimated. ::)
I agree. I think the market cap will be $50-75 million myself to start.
But that doesn't mean I want to buy from Simeon @ 30 million, though he is probably an honest guy.
But his account was created mid-May and XTS was allocated at the end of Feb.
1% is also a very big stake/investment to have made...
Also to jump on and try sell it (much too eagerly) for a low valuation when I didn't ask specifically to buy from someone off-market, makes me think he wants to keep the perception low so he can buy more too.
If you did have a big stake his actions seem illogical. But I don't know.
First – The bet is of the table now! Let that be clear.
I was trying to make several points .
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
Several factors are in play for the initial price (most not in favor of BTS). So taking the highest price that PTS ever was, when you must be fully aware of the reasons driving the price up at that moment, and to use those prices as a starting point of calculating BTS initial price is pretty optimistic. I personally see the initial price/capitalization at a range of 2X PTS to 1/3 PTS (meaning 2 to 15 Mil capitalization)
So, all in all, BTS may go to trillions someday, but this will be some day in the more distant future.
As for my side of the story – I have a lot of paper losses and missed opportunities ever since I invested in Bitshares. What is worse, I envision even more of those in the near future. So locking my profits/losses at near 0 is not the worse deal for me... :)
Thanks for the explanation & analysis.
I hope you and other shareholders will be positively surprised by where BitShares XT trades,
I agree that if it doesn't then there has been a significant opportunity cost for shareholders who have had their funds tied up, specifically those that showed the most faith.
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First – The bet is of the table now! Let that be clear.
I was trying to make several points .
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
As far as putting my money where my mouth is.
I hope you agree that there is a big difference between being able to buy on the market when the product is actually released and you have all the information about volume, depth & can gauge the interest/How people are receiving it? To make a deal before the market is a different proposition.
I know your bet is off the table. The best bet I can commit to now and offer is the following -
(Unfortunately, I cannot do anywhere close to your 1%.) But I am happy to buy $10 000 worth of XT now at a 20 million CAP now. So 0.05 % of the total shares,
The offer is available for next 24 hours, with the conditions
1. XTS is not trade-able on the market in the next 24 hours.
2. Someone at I3 needs to handle the escrow and guarantee that I wll get 0.05% of the XTS supply for my $10 000.
I'm sure they are really busy, but maybe it will be good for publicity.
So you/someone else would just need to convince them to guarantee your side if you were interested in the bet.
I can transfer the BTC equivalent to I3 as soon as those conditions are met. (So there is nothing for them to guarantee from my side, only that they are willing to be escrow and to confirm that they've received my funds.)
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and as far as I am concerned under the same conditions that Empirical1 described I will be more than happy to pay $2,500 for 0.0125% of the total shares...Please someone arrange this...
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(Unfortunately, I cannot do anywhere close to your 1%.) But I am happy to buy $10 000 worth of XT now at a 20 million CAP now. So 0.05 % of the total shares,
1% is not an issue (and never was ; it was up to 1%); I even do not have the full 1% as I said, I would have had to buy some to make it full one percent.
But cutting my price from 30 mil to 20 mill… Come on…
If you want to start negotiating again try going up from 30 mil not down…
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I personally see the initial price/capitalization at a range of 2X PTS to 1/3 PTS (meaning 2 to 15 Mil capitalization)
so all in all we agree that irrespective of no of coins the total market cap should be $40 - $75 mil upon launching...I hope that we are all on the same page here to believe that it should be at least $100 mil by the end of the year especially if Bitcoin gets pumped
I obviously disagree - 2 to 15 Mil is my prediction.
Your avg. expectation for the initial Market CAP is $8.5 Million
I am offering you a price that is 2.35 X higher then what you say your expectations are?
But don't worry, as you say -
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
I guess saying '$2-15 Million' and even putting your money where your mouth is, at '$20 million' is a different thing ;D
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so all in all we agree that irrespective of no of coins the total market cap should be $40 - $75 mil upon launching...I hope that we are all on the same page here to believe that it should be at least $100 mil by the end of the year especially if Bitcoin gets pumped
I obviously disagree - 2 to 15 Mil is my prediction.
How are we cutting from your prediction of $30 mil to $20 mil? You said $2mil - $15 mil. So we are offering 10 times more than your lowest estimate...
Don't make me offer you what it should have been fair for your estimations that is half of $2 - $15 mil i.e. $9mil...
And actually since you want some negotiations this is my new proposal:
$2,500 @ $17 mil for 0.015% of all shares which is still above your expectations is the new offer which is still above your maximum expectations of $15 mil.
What do you say? Will you put your money where your mouth is? ;)
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so all in all we agree that irrespective of no of coins the total market cap should be $40 - $75 mil upon launching...I hope that we are all on the same page here to believe that it should be at least $100 mil by the end of the year especially if Bitcoin gets pumped
I obviously disagree - 2 to 15 Mil is my prediction.
Where is your valuation coming from? How can it be valued at less than pts? you do realize this is the protodac for bitshares x? i wouldn't be supprised if the market cap started at $100 mil. Unless ppl are absolutely desperate for money right now I don't see them selling their shares at such low prices. You have to be an idiot
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First – The bet is of the table now! Let that be clear.
I was trying to make several points .
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
I am not ready to lock in any of my losses …
As negotiation go, I will use the same approach as you - I can start considering again at:
- Whatever 10K USD buys @ 45 mil market cap.
As far as putting my money where my mouth is.
I hope you agree that there is a big difference between being able to buy on the market when the product is actually released and you have all the information about volume, depth & can gauge the interest/How people are receiving it? To make a deal before the market is a different proposition.
I know your bet is off the table. The best bet I can commit to now and offer is the following -
(Unfortunately, I cannot do anywhere close to your 1%.) But I am happy to buy $10 000 worth of XT now at a 20 million CAP now. So 0.05 % of the total shares,
The offer is available for next 24 hours, with the conditions
1. XTS is not trade-able on the market in the next 24 hours.
2. Someone at I3 needs to handle the escrow and guarantee that I wll get 0.05% of the XTS supply for my $10 000.
I'm sure they are really busy, but maybe it will be good for publicity.
So you/someone else would just need to convince them to guarantee your side if you were interested in the bet.
I can transfer the BTC equivalent to I3 as soon as those conditions are met. (So there is nothing for them to guarantee from my side, only that they are willing to be escrow and to confirm that they've received my funds.)
I am not ready to lock in any of my losses …
As negotiation go, I will use your approach and counter-offer:
- Whatever 10K USD buys @ 45 mil market cap.
Or
You can use my approach and offer something creative that that covers my losses, if BTS is at my prediction level at launch. Giving me the chance to go from 15 mil to 20 mil (at which level I will still be getting only 66% for a small fraction of my total position) just does not cut it.
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Hope when it really starts, at least we,
the community members,
will not get ... trolls :)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRn5MMm4FCLIeBiBd-bVRL17Xu7ybfTG1DkA0P4ihKsvrmb84Q1)
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I am not ready to lock in any of my losses …
As negotiation go, I will use the same approach as you - I can start considering again at:
- Whatever 10K USD buys @ 45 mil market cap.
Right...Obviously troll and not to take you seriously anymore...
Starting with $2 - $15mil. We offer $20 mil you reject. I lower a bit to $17 mil and you go to $45 mil...
whatever dude...
But since you are not serious for your bets the least you can do is to stop spread FUD about max $15 mil market cap
The offer of $17 mil is still on the table and actually is on the table for everyone that has voted that it will be between $10-$20 mil!
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Where is your valuation coming from? How can it be valued at less than pts? you do realize this is the protodac for bitshares x? i wouldn't be supprised if the market cap started at $100 mil. Unless ppl are absolutely desperate for money right now I don't see them selling their shares at such low prices. You have to be an idiot
Please don't put off potential golden gooses who are willing to give away their golden eggs :)
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First – The bet is of the table now! Let that be clear.
I was trying to make several points .
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
I am not ready to lock in any of my losses …
As negotiation go, I will use the same approach as you - I can start considering again at:
- Whatever 10K USD buys @ 45 mil market cap.
As far as putting my money where my mouth is.
I hope you agree that there is a big difference between being able to buy on the market when the product is actually released and you have all the information about volume, depth & can gauge the interest/How people are receiving it? To make a deal before the market is a different proposition.
I know your bet is off the table. The best bet I can commit to now and offer is the following -
(Unfortunately, I cannot do anywhere close to your 1%.) But I am happy to buy $10 000 worth of XT now at a 20 million CAP now. So 0.05 % of the total shares,
The offer is available for next 24 hours, with the conditions
1. XTS is not trade-able on the market in the next 24 hours.
2. Someone at I3 needs to handle the escrow and guarantee that I wll get 0.05% of the XTS supply for my $10 000.
I'm sure they are really busy, but maybe it will be good for publicity.
So you/someone else would just need to convince them to guarantee your side if you were interested in the bet.
I can transfer the BTC equivalent to I3 as soon as those conditions are met. (So there is nothing for them to guarantee from my side, only that they are willing to be escrow and to confirm that they've received my funds.)
You have misquoted me in your post above.
I am not ready to lock in any of my losses …
As negotiation go, I will use the same approach as you - I can start considering again at:
- Whatever 10K USD buys @ 45 mil market cap.
This is you speaking, not me as indicated in your post.
$45 Million hey? At least we have found out where your real selling price is :)
5.3X higher than your average expectation ($8.5 million) and 22.5X higher than your minimum expectation ($2 mil)...
I will leave my offer at $20 million standing according to the terms described in case you change your mind.
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I don't want to get out bid by Empirical so I will also agree on $20 mil and not $17 mil...
And since I am feeling very generous today I will buy $2,500 at $20 mil and another $1000 at $21 mil...Unfortunately after the $3,500 I will have no more money for any summer holidays..
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I am not ready to lock in any of my losses …
As negotiation go, I will use your approach and counter-offer:
- Whatever 10K USD buys @ 45 mil market cap.
Or
You can use my approach and offer something creative that that covers my losses, if BTS is at my prediction level at launch. Giving me the chance to go from 15 mil to 20 mil (at which level I will still be getting only 66% for a small fraction of my total position) just does not cut it.
You will not have losses, if you actually believe your expectations.
You have a maximum expectation of $15 million for the market.
I personally see the initial price/capitalization at a range of 2X PTS to 1/3 PTS (meaning 2 to 15 Mil capitalization)
I obviously disagree - 2 to 15 Mil is my prediction.
I have a minimum expectation of $30 million for the market.
I looked at coinmarketcap and PTS was valued at $25 million before the snapshot and $10 million after.
As PTS makes up 50% of XTS. I would think that means the market was valuing BitShares X @ circa $30 Million?
If that's the case, I think the market should be valuing it at, at least $30 million
...Obviously the valuation should be much higher now for multiple reasons, personally I'm kind of hoping there will be some people that need to sell because it's been a while since the snapshot and I want to buy moarrrrr... :)
So our perfect trade is at +-$21 million
At that price I will get +-40% gain based on my minimum expectations of price at launch.
At that price you will get a +- 40% gain based on your maximum expectations of price at launch.
(You can always buy your shares back at the $15 million or less you believe the market will be and keep the few thousand as profit. Then you have no losses, only the same shares + $$ profit.)
It is one thing to make estimations, it is totally deferent if you have to put your money where your mouth is (i.e. buy/sell at those prices). Do not take it personally, it is human nature.
You are the one talking about numbers & valuations that you don't believe at all :D
I believe I have won this contest.
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I am very curious... 15/52 people so far believe that the initial market cap will be between $10-20mil and still no one is accepting our offer for $20-$21 mil... Come on people... who will be the lucky one to get the $13,500 from me and Empirical1 and lock some good profits upon release...Don't be shy...come forward...
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
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I am very curious... 15/52 people so far believe that the initial market cap will be between $10-20mil and still no one is accepting our offer for $20-$21 mil... Come on people... who will be the lucky one to get the $13,500 from me and Empirical1 and lock some good profits upon release...Don't be shy...come forward...
$10-20 million, I wish :D
King Leonidas: 'Pray they are that stupid. Pray we are that lucky.'
- King Leonidas from 300 (2006)
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
Exciting stuff!!! 8)
(Hmm.. Or should we be a bit concerned BM thinks small animals are speaking to him? :P )
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
Exciting stuff!!! 8)
(Hmm.. Or should we be a bit concerned BM thinks small animals are speaking to him? :P )
I need to stay away from twitter...
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
Exciting stuff!!! 8)
(Hmm.. Or should we be a bit concerned BM thinks small animals are speaking to him? :P )
I need to stay away from twitter...
:)
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I don't want to get out bid by Empirical so I will also agree on $20 mil and not $17 mil...
And since I am feeling very generous today I will buy $2,500 at $20 mil and another $1000 at $21 mil...Unfortunately after the $3,500 I will have no more money for any summer holidays..
what about PTS and the transition to TITAN
or donation's for AGS ?
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
When is soon?
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
When is soon?
Little bird did not say.
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I little bird told me that there may be something released real soon so these speculative pre-trades may be for very short-lived advantage.
When is soon?
Little bird did not say.
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSks5JzUrsV8u0KksBrviIb6OUYuAI_UYLsyc2IbyfNGbmotuFo9Q)
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I think some of the valuations here are a bit optimistic and wishful thinking. That said in the long run they may become true and even greatly surpass the original investment.
However we should also take into account human nature and other factors. Many, including myself have been waiting to become liquid so we can unload some. Where I'm going with this is, let's assume for a moment that all investors are at least smart enough to not want to sell at a loss. The moment XTS becomes liquid, we should look at the lowest price, not the highest that AGS was being acquired at. In general people should not sell lower than that.
Then there are other factors. Even if I am a big believer in the ideas, the velocity of the team wasn't to my liking so, I think there is risk they will be outrun by competition.
Thirdly the Ethereum sale will be coming up, and I would definitely want to diversify and move some % from XTS to eth.
I'll try to do a more detailed analysis and display what prices people bought at, we should then use those as a theoretical floor, since people generally should not sell at a loss.
Exciting times indeed. Trading will be very emotional as well, there will be some fun volatility ahead. :)
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Thirdly the Ethereum sale will be coming up, and I would definitely want to diversify and move some % from XTS to eth.
lol...why would you want to do that when in the future you could have Bitether and earn +5%?
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Thirdly the Ethereum sale will be coming up, and I would definitely want to diversify and move some % from XTS to eth.
lol...why would you want to do that when in the future you could have Bitether and earn +5%?
There will be much better investments with ether than with XTS. If we are talking about "future", in the future I can fund actual DApps that generate income and much more, I could participate as escrow etc.
Also I'm not 100% sure how well BitUSD will actually track the price. There is no unit of account, and price could be severely manipulated by big players. It's all theoretical at this point and the "future" you speak of is viewed through rose colored glasses. Which is fine, but I'm taking the approach of diversification. I would not put all my eggs in one basket. And I have put way too many in AGS.
I didn't say I'm going to sell all of it, just some % of it.
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Also I wanted to share this as I think I'm not alone, and you guys are trying to predict prices. In fact I may even sell a % at a small loss in order to move into early ethereum and other more lucrative investments. My point is I won't be surprise if we don't even see a market cap of $15M for some time while people who have been waiting to cash out become liquid. Of course that will likely be a short lived drop and great investment opportunity for those who missed the boat.
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I feel you man...Actually I do hope that a lot of you sell some XTS upon launching at cheap prices as I seriously need to increase my BTS holdings...I have also invested a lot in AGS but mostly after the 28th snapshot...For some reason I thought that keeping PTS was the way to go before the snapshot (Idiot...)
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Don't beat yourself up, I'm sure there will be opportunities to get in at reasonable prices.
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http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms
Please look at the market caps of these other platforms and tell me that its going to IPO at $15 million. Ethereum wont even be more efficient that bitshares because its still trying to create an asic resistant proof of work.
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http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms
Please look at the market caps of these other platforms and tell me that its going to IPO at $15 million. Ethereum wont even be more efficient that bitshares because its still trying to create an asic resistant proof of work.
Can someone fix the wiki with some details:
1) Our transactions are just slightly more anonymous than bitcoin (automatic unique address generation)
2) A MAJOR benefit our transactions have is the memo field and identification of who the transaction is from
3) 100 TPS is theoretically possible for all systems, our first system will probably start out with a 10 TPS limit.
Very good information on the Wiki guys!
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@ Empirical1 and other interested in buying BTS.
I do not know if this is good or bad news for you but:
I have found counter party and have sold 75% of my position at 31.25 Mil USD (at $640/BTC) market cap.
50% of the money, by both sides, is transferred to escrow, so it is effectively done! :)
@ Agent86 – my security deposit is 35%. The other party finds the amount satisfactory, so…
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@ Empirical1 and other interested in buying BTS.
I do not know if this is good or bad news for you but:
I have found counter party and have sold 75% of my position at 31.25 Mil USD (at $640/BTC) market cap.
50% of the money, by both sides, is transferred to escrow, so it is effectively done! :)
@ Agent86 – my security deposit is 35%. The other party finds the amount satisfactory, so…
+5%
I'm glad you were able to make a deal with and sort out escrow on terms you were happy with.
I'm also glad there's someone willing to buy a big position at $31.25 Million.
Your remaining 25% still leaves you with a nice stake, I hope you will keep it and share in the success of X :)
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@ Empirical1 and other interested in buying BTS.
I do not know if this is good or bad news for you but:
I have found counter party and have sold 75% of my position at 31.25 Mil USD (at $640/BTC) market cap.
50% of the money, by both sides, is transferred to escrow, so it is effectively done! :)
@ Agent86 – my security deposit is 35%. The other party finds the amount satisfactory, so…
+5%
I'm glad you were able to make a deal with and sort out escrow on terms you were happy with.
I'm also glad there's someone willing to buy a big position at $31.25 Million.
Your remaining 25% still leaves you with a nice stake, I hope you will keep it and share in the success of X :)
Ohhhh, if I am correct or partially correct I intend to use most of the money to re-buy a bigger stake than the one I had.
If I am wrong and you guys were correct I will repurchase but unfortunately a smaller stake… things of life, you know, you cannot have it both ways.
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@ Empirical1 and other interested in buying BTS.
I do not know if this is good or bad news for you but:
I have found counter party and have sold 75% of my position at 31.25 Mil USD (at $640/BTC) market cap.
50% of the money, by both sides, is transferred to escrow, so it is effectively done! :)
@ Agent86 – my security deposit is 35%. The other party finds the amount satisfactory, so…
+5%
I'm glad you were able to make a deal with and sort out escrow on terms you were happy with.
I'm also glad there's someone willing to buy a big position at $31.25 Million.
Your remaining 25% still leaves you with a nice stake, I hope you will keep it and share in the success of X :)
Ohhhh, if I am correct or partially correct I intend to use most of the money to re-buy a bigger stake than the one I had.
If I am wrong and you guys were correct I will repurchase but unfortunately a smaller stake… things of life, you know, you cannot have it both ways.
Ok. Hope it works out!
I wasn't too impressed when you challenged me in this thread, but I came across some of your posts in other threads and actually found I agree with a lot of what you have to say. I think it's good you speak your mind.
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@ Empirical1 and other interested in buying BTS.
I do not know if this is good or bad news for you but:
I have found counter party and have sold 75% of my position at 31.25 Mil USD (at $640/BTC) market cap.
50% of the money, by both sides, is transferred to escrow, so it is effectively done! :)
@ Agent86 – my security deposit is 35%. The other party finds the amount satisfactory, so…
+5%
I'm glad you were able to make a deal with and sort out escrow on terms you were happy with.
I'm also glad there's someone willing to buy a big position at $31.25 Million.
Your remaining 25% still leaves you with a nice stake, I hope you will keep it and share in the success of X :)
Ohhhh, if I am correct or partially correct I intend to use most of the money to re-buy a bigger stake than the one I had.
If I am wrong and you guys were correct I will repurchase but unfortunately a smaller stake… things of life, you know, you cannot have it both ways.
Ok. Hope it works out!
I wasn't too impressed when you challenged me in this thread, but I came across some of your posts in other threads and actually found I agree with a lot of what you have to say. I think it's good you speak your mind.
I think we nailed it:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5471.msg73348#msg73348
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I'm just catching up on everything so my question shows complete ignorance and I'm counting on your kindness to explain to me what's probably basic knowledge here :D
were all the PTSX distributed or is it possible to buy some (in order to receive stake in future X ventures)? and I saw in another post there are ptsx available on bter38, are those the same thing, and is there a special wallet for ptsx to hold them or can they be transferred to a BitShare-PTS wallet?
(well now that I'm asking, I also took part in the initial buy/funding last year where you sent PTS to reserve a name of your choice. what happened to that?)
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I'm just catching up on everything so my question shows complete ignorance and I'm counting on your kindness to explain to me what's probably basic knowledge here :D
were all the PTSX distributed or is it possible to buy some (in order to receive stake in future X ventures)? and I saw in another post there are ptsx available on bter38, are those the same thing, and is there a special wallet for ptsx to hold them or can they be transferred to a BitShare-PTS wallet?
(well now that I'm asking, I also took part in the initial buy/funding last year where you sent PTS to reserve a name of your choice. what happened to that?)
It is BTSX not PTSX. All are distributed. The one you see on btc38 are BTSX that was "created" cause on the snapshot 28/2/2014 some investors had their PTS on the exchange and not on their BitShares-PTS wallets so the owner seems to bee technicaly btc38 (because the PTS was on the exchange wallet). Because btc38 was fair to their customers they created a BTSX IOU and has made the commitment that when BitSharesX is official out, they will give to it's customers the BTSXs everyone owns depended on the number of BitShares-PTS they had on snapshot day on the exchange. So right now nobody can withdrawn the BTSX since BitSharesX is not yet out but they are tradable ;) The new owners (you could be to) just must wait until BTSX is official out and everything works flawless and then make any withdrawals to their BitSharesX wallets (now on alpha testing).
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I'm just catching up on everything so my question shows complete ignorance and I'm counting on your kindness to explain to me what's probably basic knowledge here :D
were all the PTSX distributed or is it possible to buy some (in order to receive stake in future X ventures)? and I saw in another post there are ptsx available on bter38, are those the same thing, and is there a special wallet for ptsx to hold them or can they be transferred to a BitShare-PTS wallet?
(well now that I'm asking, I also took part in the initial buy/funding last year where you sent PTS to reserve a name of your choice. what happened to that?)
If you owned BitShares-PTS on February 28th, you will have a stake in BitShares X (BTSX); accessed with the same wallet keys that held the PTS on that date. You can also buy more BitShares X on btc38 already. You should also get some BTSX because you bought a keyhotee ID. I believe your keyhotee ID may be pre-registered on the BTSX blockchain. The Bitshares X blockchain has not officially launched yet.
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@ Empirical1 and other interested in buying BTS.
I do not know if this is good or bad news for you but:
I have found counter party and have sold 75% of my position at 31.25 Mil USD (at $640/BTC) market cap.
50% of the money, by both sides, is transferred to escrow, so it is effectively done! :)
@ Agent86 – my security deposit is 35%. The other party finds the amount satisfactory, so…
+5%
I'm glad you were able to make a deal with and sort out escrow on terms you were happy with.
I'm also glad there's someone willing to buy a big position at $31.25 Million.
Your remaining 25% still leaves you with a nice stake, I hope you will keep it and share in the success of X :)
Ohhhh, if I am correct or partially correct I intend to use most of the money to re-buy a bigger stake than the one I had.
If I am wrong and you guys were correct I will repurchase but unfortunately a smaller stake… things of life, you know, you cannot have it both ways.
And what is your buy back price?
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I don't know about Simeon, but my buy back price would be at $16.3M and $12.5M market cap (given I still believe in the long term growth of the platform).
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Thanks liondani and Agent86 for the help!
ok so to own BTSX I should buy them on btc38 and then when it's ready withdraw them to my BTSX wallet. I believe I had PTS in February but they were on cryptsy so I guess I will get nothing ::)
About my keyhotee ID, I sent the PTS from cryptsy, was that a bad idea? :o
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About my keyhotee ID, I sent the PTS from cryptsy, was that a bad idea? :o
for your keyhotee you only need the address you sent the PTS to .. but you need to generate a public key using the keyhotee software soon!! otherwise you will not get your name registered in the genesisblock!
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About my keyhotee ID, I sent the PTS from cryptsy, was that a bad idea? :o
for your keyhotee you only need the address you sent the PTS to .. but you need to generate a public key using the keyhotee software soon!! otherwise you will not get your name registered in the genesisblock!
wheew thats good :), but I could not find a keyhotee software I guess this is still to be released?
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About my keyhotee ID, I sent the PTS from cryptsy, was that a bad idea? :o
for your keyhotee you only need the address you sent the PTS to .. but you need to generate a public key using the keyhotee software soon!! otherwise you will not get your name registered in the genesisblock!
wheew thats good :), but I could not find a keyhotee software I guess this is still to be released?
https://github.com/InvictusInnovations/keyhotee/releases
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1433.msg50002#msg50002
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thanks xeroc!!
I expected they would send an email when something new happens to keep us informed, I don't know if back then this forum even existed >:(
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I feel you man...Actually I do hope that a lot of you sell some XTS upon launching at cheap prices as I seriously need to increase my BTS holdings...I have also invested a lot in AGS but mostly after the 28th snapshot...For some reason I thought that keeping PTS was the way to go before the snapshot (Idiot...)
Don't feel too bad, I did some cursory research shortly before the snapshot. I understood PTS better and so invested a bit there, then read more and had a better understanding of AGS afterwards as well.
In both our cases at least we got involved somehow before the snapshot even if we didn't maximize well for XTS.
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I don't know about Simeon, but my buy back price would be at $16.3M and $12.5M market cap (given I still believe in the long term growth of the platform).
I will start buying at $15Mil and get seriously involved at $9-$10MIil
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
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Adam exchanges haven't adjusted for the change in number of shares. They should once it is confirmed, because if they don't it will be very bad news that travels fast. Btc38 already confirmed they will handle this correctly. I'm assuming bter will as well.
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^^ bter is trading with 4m total, so its $19m market cap. Also it will scale up to 2b not 4b.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
No, the price on the exchanges is relative to a supply of 4 million.
I'm paying 0.008BTC for an IOU for 2 billion / 4 million = 500BTSX. In other words, 0.008BTC/500=0.000016 BTC/BTSX.
Edit. Did the calculations first with 2 billion, then posted with 4 billion cause that's what Adam used. Corrected to 2 billion again!
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
Wow this is just FUD Adam. You like that don't you ? Ohh that because you don't have the time to read the forum right.. now I remember. That is a good excuse so you can say anything you like.
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To be fair... any one trading prior to the launch of a specific DAC is taking a huge risk and should be doing so with a heavy dose of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt and pricing their bids and asks accordingly.
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
Wow this is just FUD Adam. You like that don't you ? Ohh that because you don't have the time to read the forum right.. now I remember. That is a good excuse so you can say anything you like.
Are you blaming me for being confused, when this is pretty clearly confusing? I've been following and supporting the project Since august of last year, and I don't even know how many tokens there are going to be.
Am I stupid, a bad actor, or is it confusing?
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Are you blaming me for being confused, when this is pretty clearly confusing? I've been following and supporting the project Since august of last year, and I don't even know how many tokens there are going to be.
Am I stupid, a bad actor, or is it confusing?
It's confusing, risky and uncertain!
I'm trading pre-launch and realize I might be taking a huge risk, but like I said before we're talking small quantities here, about 0.5BTC so far. Assuming the conversion to 2 billion goes as planned, I'm buying XTS at an estimated market cap of 20 million, which seems reasonable to me considering the potential.
I've been following along every dry run, compiling the client, playing with the web wallet and windows wallet etc, and that's why I believe there's potential for a higher market cap.
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
Wow this is just FUD Adam. You like that don't you ? Ohh that because you don't have the time to read the forum right.. now I remember. That is a good excuse so you can say anything you like.
Are you blaming me for being confused, when this is pretty clearly confusing? I've been following and supporting the project Since august of last year, and I don't even know how many tokens there are going to be.
Am I stupid, a bad actor, or is it confusing?
Confusing it is yes, you right about that. BTSX in not out yet maybe that why. There are gonna be 2 billion tokens last I know.
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Anybody checked Bter and BTC38 recently? Even their IOUs in BTSX are trading with a market cap of $20-25 million. This sucker's going to debut much higher than some folks think.
The IOUs are the only way to get BTSX right now. The supply is very limited at the moment. Once actual BTSX floods the market it will go down, just like ANY other IPO that debuts on an exchange. Then it should resume its course higher, given no major setbacks. I think there will be opportunities to get in on the cheap once more after we go live.
I really hope so...
We'll see. I've been buying some small quantities at around 0.008BTC at BTC38, but if the price drops even further on launch I'll be ready to buy even more. If BM and the others can sort out the few remaining bugs, the current state of this project is miles ahead of most other "altcoins", which bodes well for the Bitshares ecosystem.
I won't be surprised it BTSX is in the nr. 2 spot on Coinmarketcap come Christmas.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
Are you not aware that the supply will change? Or are you just refusing to do the math?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Guys, keep in mind Adam is doing something really good here. He is a supporter not the FUDder, many see him as. What he is bringing is the viewpoint of all the outsiders. The questions he ask are questions people interested and unfamiliar with BTSX will ask. That said Invictus needs to start investing heavily in proper marketing. A good product without good clear documentation and marketing would not prosper.
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Guys, keep in mind Adam is doing something really good here. He is a supporter not the FUDder, many see him as. What he is bringing is the viewpoint of all the outsiders. The questions he ask are questions people interested and unfamiliar with BTSX will ask. That said Invictus needs to start investing heavily in proper marketing. A good product without good clear documentation and marketing would not prosper.
+5%
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If you have difficulties calculating market cap of BTSX, just go to Bter.com and you can find it by looking at Market Cap(BTC) column.
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I see 2 prominent actors in this thread playing more stupid then we know they actually are. What are their respective benefits of their misfortunate posts ? I do not know, do you?
First ABL is behaving like the exchanges are those big bad wolfs and will never adjust the share supply accordingly ( which bter btw already did just to probably show him how easy it is for them to do, as well as to show they have no ill intentions to trick you in paying 500 times more than what you think you are paying).
The second is BM, who finds trading shares before their release very dangerous. My question for him is – how is that more risky than donating to AGS, or buying PTS? If anything it is orders of magnitude less so.
There are going to be 4 billion bitshares available on the market all at once, and you're paying .008btc EACH? That's what, $4.80 a piece, and would give a market cap of $19,200,000,000 i.e. bigger than the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem including bitcoin.
Are you aware of how much you're likely overpaying?
To be fair... any one trading prior to the launch of a specific DAC is taking a huge risk and should be doing so with a heavy dose of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt and pricing their bids and asks accordingly.
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I suspect that those trading BTSX will be fine and I trust the exchanges to do the most honorable thing they can.
I only say it is risky because of the large number of unknowns/changing conditions and due to my position I have a responsibility to point out that there are extra risks. All risks are manageable and experts can trade/gamble/speculate but it isn't for the average user just yet.
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I suspect that those trading BTSX will be fine and I trust the exchanges to do the most honorable thing they can.
I only say it is risky because of the large number of unknowns/changing conditions and due to my position I have a responsibility to point out that there are extra risks. All risks are manageable and experts can trade/gamble/speculate but it isn't for the average user just yet.
Seeing the last 2 posts (msg74921 and msg74949) here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5508.0,
I see your point.
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I think that adam generally does bring up some great points and rather than trying to shun him I think we should appreciate that he, along with everyone else that still bothers to voice an opinion or concern is still doing so.
It is not to detract or divide this community but rather to challenge each other's views and learn.
Not everyone is glued to the forums 24/7 and not everyone can subsist on blind faith.
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Guys, keep in mind Adam is doing something really good here. He is a supporter not the FUDder, many see him as. What he is bringing is the viewpoint of all the outsiders. The questions he ask are questions people interested and unfamiliar with BTSX will ask. That said Invictus needs to start investing heavily in proper marketing. A good product without good clear documentation and marketing would not prosper.
+5%
+5% +5% +5%
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I am a bit confused. How is even XTS being traded on btc38 or bter? I don't think we have a mechanism in place to transfer stakes to exchanges yet, right?
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I am a bit confused. How is even XTS being traded on btc38 or bter? I don't think we have a mechanism in place to transfer stakes to exchanges yet, right?
they are from the pts balances people had on the exchanges during snapshot
bter and btc38 gave the shares to the pts holders that they deserve
not like greedy cryptsy
so the shares are basicly IOU's until btsx launches
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I am a bit confused. How is even XTS being traded on btc38 or bter? I don't think we have a mechanism in place to transfer stakes to exchanges yet, right?
they are from the pts balances people had on the exchanges during snapshot
bter and btc38 gave the shares to the pts holders that they deserve
not like greedy cryptsy
so the shares are basicly IOU's until btsx launches
well that is a pretty risky move, leaving balances on exchanges.
I guess that is one of the reasons there is no price parity between btc38 and bter. One is running away with the price while other is stable.
Though the thing which is confusing me most is how the buyers are going to transfer their stakes?
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when Bitshares X is official out expect to make withdrawals to your wallet without problem, our you can sell your BTSX for BTC if you think your profit is good enough OR arbitraging... (keep the secret safe please )
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The secret will remain a secret as I dint leave any on the exchanges, just too much risk. In any case there is the huge sell wall on bter for 6 BTC, people on btc38 must be salivating/kicking themselves :P
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So if I had PTS from the pts snapshot and it was initially 1.33xPTS is it now 500X1.33xPTS amount of XTS given to my key in the snapshot?
Would be nice to have this info available somewhere in the clear...
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~644 btsx per pts (1.28 not 1.33)
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
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gotcha
+5%
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Anyone know the % of PTS left on BTER at the time of the Snapshot?
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Look at snapshot for PTS I think they are either the largest or second largest address. I wouldn't be surprised if it is something like 300M BTSX.
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Look at snapshot for PTS I think they are either the largest or second largest address. I wouldn't be surprised if it is something like 300M BTSX.
that means 6000 BTC(!), and on both exchanges the 24h volume is combined only 30-50 BTC ???
Could it be possible that only 1% is traded from the available supply? It doesn't make sense to me?
Except the majority of the exchange customer's don't have a clue they are BTSX owners... ::)
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Look at snapshot for PTS I think they are either the largest or second largest address. I wouldn't be surprised if it is something like 300M BTSX.
Where do I find the explorer for the snapshot?
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Where do I find the explorer for the snapshot?
I would imagine this could be an exchange address, with over 20,000 transactions. Not sure if it is BTER.
https://coinplorer.com/PTS/Addresses/PvMga93tnLgmJuZnD43kSqVSbEcSTiywVu
Of course there is no way of knowing how many PTS the exchange was holding at the time of the snapshot, but 50K PTS I think are roughly 30M BTSX.
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THe biggest ones, last time I looked, were BTC38 and the AGS donation address. I imagine Bter is very high, though.