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Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: bytemaster on October 17, 2014, 09:33:53 pm

Title: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 17, 2014, 09:33:53 pm
On todays mumble I revealed some more details:

1) VOTING itself is not profitable for a DAC so VOTING cannot be where it gets its value.... *(or can it ;) ) 
2) It will have BitUSD (but no other BitAssets)
3) It will have an improved and more generalized Key Graph than .P2P/KeyID
4) It will have a turing complete scripting environment

There are other to be announced details... but that is what came out today.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: emski on October 17, 2014, 09:35:45 pm
On todays mumble I revealed some more details:

1) VOTING itself is not profitable for a DAC so VOTING cannot be where it gets its value.... *(or can it ;) ) 
2) It will have BitUSD (but no other BitAssets)
3) It will have an improved and more generalized Key Graph than .P2P/KeyID
4) It will have a turing complete scripting environment

There are other to be announced details... but that is what came out today.

Will it be only voting then ?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: sschechter on October 17, 2014, 10:15:57 pm
hmmmmm.....my guess is that it will allow lobbyists to buy bitUSD to pay transaction fees for 'advertisements' - transaction messages sent to DAC voters

Or.....the usage of the term 'turning complete' will cause people to irrationally throw money at it without really knowing what they're getting....

Either way, it sounds like exciting stuff
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 17, 2014, 10:27:32 pm
Can we use VOTE DAC to vote what to do with PTS? :)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 17, 2014, 10:29:20 pm
hmmmmm.....my guess is that it will allow lobbyists to buy bitUSD to pay transaction fees for 'advertisements' - transaction messages sent to DAC voters

Or.....the usage of the term 'turning complete' will cause people to irrationally throw money at it without really knowing what they're getting....

Either way, it sounds like exciting stuff

lol @ turing complete's value.

Your first guess sounds solid to me.  You can use keygraph to narrow down demographics etc.  Not just for lobbyists, but for marketers.   

I wonder if the ad money is funneled all to the DAC or to the receiver of the ads?   or both?

Or is your speculation completely off ?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 17, 2014, 10:38:15 pm
hmmmmm.....my guess is that it will allow lobbyists to buy bitUSD to pay transaction fees for 'advertisements' - transaction messages sent to DAC voters

Or.....the usage of the term 'turning complete' will cause people to irrationally throw money at it without really knowing what they're getting....


A whole new meaning to 'turning complete'
LOL
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 17, 2014, 10:43:55 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 17, 2014, 10:49:52 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen... :(
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: starspirit on October 17, 2014, 10:53:39 pm
In general, what point does a DAC concept need to be at to justify a snapshot. e.g. Was the VOTES snapshot taken too early, given the business model is still not known?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: sschechter on October 17, 2014, 10:53:49 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

Core developer just put on his CEO hat
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 17, 2014, 11:11:48 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

Core developer just put on his CEO hat

The thing is, I totally agree with the notion that there should be thousands of DAC's manifesting themselves into our world and transforming all human business, but the key to getting that to happen will be the creation of a huge network that gives bitsharesx, and thus all of bitshares the momentum it needs for these things to get made. A few people cannot create this boundless future of business alone, and unless btsx takes off, there will never be more than a few people working on it (within the bitshares framework anyway).

Right now in these few months, with bitcoin at a yearly low but business interest continuously increasing, we are basically sitting in the perfect storm for propelling a new decentralized network into the spotlight. Before this year is over btsx could be locked in and the future of blockchain tech secured, but only if the developers take the lead and the entire community follows behind them.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 17, 2014, 11:14:24 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen... :(

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck! :)


Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 17, 2014, 11:34:50 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen... :(

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck! :)

But btsx is not useable. There's no mobile wallet, there's no ability to integrate it with a POS system. Shorts paying interest is not going to add any value on its own, it will only make a difference if there is a reason to either buy bitUSD or go long btsx and currently there is no such reason. There must be trade inside the system for it to create any value.

The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: jsidhu on October 17, 2014, 11:41:04 pm
Turing complete? Are you going to use AT scripts from CIYAM or something? (http://ciyam.org/at)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 17, 2014, 11:42:00 pm
The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Simply put I do not have enough pluses to state how much I agree with that!

 +5% +5% +5%
                     +5% +5% +5%
                                           +5% +5% +5%

PS
And by the way, there is NOTHING, not a single thing!, that can be  AS BIG AS BTSX,  if BTSX reaches its full potential that is...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 17, 2014, 11:43:35 pm
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen... :(

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck! :)

But btsx is not useable. There's no mobile wallet, there's no ability to integrate it with a POS system. Shorts paying interest is not going to add any value on its own, it will only make a difference if there is a reason to either buy bitUSD or go long btsx and currently there is no such reason. There must be trade inside the system for it to create any value.

The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Oh yeah, I believe all of those things you mentioned are happening & I presume BM will be as involved as he needs to be. Again as I said in another thread, BM came up with BTSX, he knows how big it can be & he's put loads into it to make it a reality from just an idea. If he's working on something else, I'm sure he's confident he can handle both & that there are reasons for it.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 18, 2014, 12:02:14 am
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen... :(

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck! :)

But btsx is not useable. There's no mobile wallet, there's no ability to integrate it with a POS system. Shorts paying interest is not going to add any value on its own, it will only make a difference if there is a reason to either buy bitUSD or go long btsx and currently there is no such reason. There must be trade inside the system for it to create any value.

The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Oh yeah, I believe all of those things you mentioned are happening & I presume BM will be as involved as he needs to be. Again as I said in another thread, BM came up with BTSX, he knows how big it can be & he's put loads into it to make it a reality from just an idea. If he's working on something else, I'm sure he's confident he can handle both & that there are reasons for it.

Dan is incredibly smart but that doesn't mean he cannot make mistakes. In this case starting a new project is a huge mistake. Btsx doesn't even have a mobile wallet or the capability for pos integration. Every single cent of the current market cap is entirely speculative, all based on future expectations. There is not a single actual user. If those expectations fail to appear in a reasonable timeframe, the entire market cap will evaporate. If it turns out that the main person behind the entire thing now has his heart set on other things then patience will turn to panic. Btsx will die, and every other bitshares DAC will die alongside it.

Saying "I'm sure [...] there are reasons for it" literally means that you are unable to think of any reasons for it.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 12:20:30 am
Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix as I improve the toolkit. 

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Anyway, btsx will thrive and grow in parallel. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: tonyk on October 18, 2014, 12:26:49 am
Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix as I improve the toolkit. 

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Anyway, btsx will thrive and grow in parallel.

in Parallel???????????????????

Please, please, please!

Let's finish the new earth... before building the new solar system...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 12:30:42 am
Bitsharesx is not even close to being a finished or useable product and the core developer focus now goes to a new project?

I think you are a wise man... I also doubt anybody will listen... :(

I think BitSharesX is amazing & looking pretty good especially after the next update where shorts compete on yield. BM has said he thinks this DAC could be as big as BTSX and Stan has said there may be some synergy between the two. Personally I'd probably recommend BM takes a bit of a break because I can't imagine all the work and time he must have put into BTSX in the last few months. However if he's passionate about getting stuck into another project that will probably also benefit BTSX, I say thanks and good luck! :)

But btsx is not useable. There's no mobile wallet, there's no ability to integrate it with a POS system. Shorts paying interest is not going to add any value on its own, it will only make a difference if there is a reason to either buy bitUSD or go long btsx and currently there is no such reason. There must be trade inside the system for it to create any value.

The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Oh yeah, I believe all of those things you mentioned are happening & I presume BM will be as involved as he needs to be. Again as I said in another thread, BM came up with BTSX, he knows how big it can be & he's put loads into it to make it a reality from just an idea. If he's working on something else, I'm sure he's confident he can handle both & that there are reasons for it.

Dan is incredibly smart but that doesn't mean he cannot make mistakes. In this case starting a new project is a huge mistake. Btsx doesn't even have a mobile wallet or the capability for pos integration. Every single cent of the current market cap is entirely speculative, all based on future expectations. There is not a single actual user. If those expectations fail to appear in a reasonable timeframe, the entire market cap will evaporate. If it turns out that the main person behind the entire thing now has his heart set on other things then patience will turn to panic. Btsx will die, and every other bitshares DAC will die alongside it.

Saying "I'm sure [...] there are reasons for it" literally means that you are unable to think of any reasons for it.

The CAP is not entirely speculative. BitAssets work, the peg works. I am a user, I own BitAssets.
If the banks collapsed tomorrow my BitAssets would still be fine without all the add-ons. So there is a lot of genuine value included in the current CAP.

I also often react to things and write and will continue to write my fair share of 'The sky is falling down' posts but the sky is not falling down, every single cent of it is not speculative, every single BitShares DAC will not die... 

As for the reasons, yes you're right I'm not clear what they are, as not all has been revealed yet (& I'll probably disagree with some of them when they are) It took about 6 months but I have a lot of confidence in BM and so I don't always need to know all the details to be very comfortable about my position.

 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 18, 2014, 12:36:57 am
Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix as I improve the toolkit. 

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Anyway, btsx will thrive and grow in parallel.

Then the right thing to do is to inflate btsx to fund development. Sure, your job is to lead. But you also lead the community, and the speculators. When they catch on that you are not focusing on getting the first and most important project off the ground then many will divest. Btsx is the DAC that determines the fate of all other bitshares DACs.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 12:43:04 am
The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Simply put I do not have enough pluses to state how much I agree with that!

 +5% +5% +5%
                     +5% +5% +5%
                                           +5% +5% +5%

PS
And by the way, there is NOTHING, not a single thing!, that can be  AS BIG AS BTSX,  if BTSX reaches its full potential that is...

You need to think BIGGER, Pinky.  :)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 12:45:38 am
New DACs give additional funding to the ecosystem.  People who have been here from earlier days may not have as much of an interest in BTSX as people new.  IMO Voting DAC is basically the same as the KeyID DAC, so there will be even more value in terms of potential dev money.

I'm much happier seeing I3/whoever diversify outside BitsharesX.  To not lay groundwork elsewhere would be foolish.   We get better strategic positioning via first mover type stuff.  We get more funding to help the ecosystem as a whole.  We benefit.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: tonyk on October 18, 2014, 12:52:38 am
The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Simply put I do not have enough pluses to state how much I agree with that!

 +5% +5% +5%
                     +5% +5% +5%
                                           +5% +5% +5%

PS
And by the way, there is NOTHING, not a single thing!, that can be  AS BIG AS BTSX,  if BTSX reaches its full potential that is...

You need to think BIGGER, Pinky.  :)

"tonyk, What happened to this project of yours, from couple of years  ago, that you liked so much, and even thought it's going to change the world?"

" Yee, nothing.... the voting DAC just got more interesting... at the wrong time."


@Stan I have thought big all my life, Stan. This time I prefer to limit myself something much smaller, like 10 Trillion Market cap on BTSX...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 01:05:02 am
Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix as I improve the toolkit. 

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Anyway, btsx will thrive and grow in parallel.

in Parallel???????????????????

Please, please, please!

Let's finish the new earth... before building the new solar system...

When Mercury-Atlas manned orbital missions were blasting off from Launch Complex 14

In parallel Gemini-Titan II two man missions were being prepared for Launch Complex 19

In parallel we were preparing Apollo-Saturn launch facilities at Launch Complex 39

(http://www.nbbd.com/events/NASAimages/CapeCanaveralLaunchPads.png)

This is a fast-break offense.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 18, 2014, 01:06:25 am
The vote DAC being as big as btsx means nothing, because currently btsx is nothing. It has no actual users, only Chinese speculators and western true believers.

BTSX has the potential to become what everyone has thought bitcoin would become, the system that liberates mankind. But that will only happen if it is made to happen, and currently there are some crucial pieces missing before it will be ready for lift off.

I realize that dan and the team have already done a tremendous lot, but if they finish what they started they will earn the right to rest for the rest of their lives. Right now is really not the time to rest.

Simply put I do not have enough pluses to state how much I agree with that!

 +5% +5% +5%
                     +5% +5% +5%
                                           +5% +5% +5%

PS
And by the way, there is NOTHING, not a single thing!, that can be  AS BIG AS BTSX,  if BTSX reaches its full potential that is...

You need to think BIGGER, Pinky.  :)

Means of payment and store of value is the biggest potential use case for decentralized systems, and the only with a functional implementation. The btsx community is also the funnel that will bring users to other bitshares DACs. The only potential userbase for a voting DAC will be btsx users. I promise you that it will be impossible to sell the concept to anyone who don't already get btsx enough to invest in it.

Btsx must get off the ground before it makes sense to build any other DAC. You build things from the bottom, in this case thinking big just means losing perspective and getting overtaken by others that focus on doing a few things well.

That being said, I see no issue with rapidly creating more value by spring boarding many new DACs off the network effect of btsx, as soon as there is one. But currently there is none
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 18, 2014, 01:11:54 am
New DACs give additional funding to the ecosystem.  People who have been here from earlier days may not have as much of an interest in BTSX as people new.  IMO Voting DAC is basically the same as the KeyID DAC, so there will be even more value in terms of potential dev money.

I'm much happier seeing I3/whoever diversify outside BitsharesX.  To not lay groundwork elsewhere would be foolish.   We get better strategic positioning via first mover type stuff.  We get more funding to help the ecosystem as a whole.  We benefit.

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase. Having an empty DAC will give no advantage at all. An established network with active users will come along and take whatever innovations they can for their own blockchain to use. Also how long do you think it will be possible to get funding out of the same small group of people?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 01:16:15 am
It's interesting over the past weeks to hear everybody saying

"Gee, I hope there a Plan B for Marketing this stuff."

Apparently there are those who wouldn't recognize a Plan B if it sneaked up and bit them in the assets.

:)

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 01:21:26 am
New DACs give additional funding to the ecosystem.  People who have been here from earlier days may not have as much of an interest in BTSX as people new.  IMO Voting DAC is basically the same as the KeyID DAC, so there will be even more value in terms of potential dev money.

I'm much happier seeing I3/whoever diversify outside BitsharesX.  To not lay groundwork elsewhere would be foolish.   We get better strategic positioning via first mover type stuff.  We get more funding to help the ecosystem as a whole.  We benefit.

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase. Having an empty DAC will give no advantage at all. An established network with active users will come along and take whatever innovations they can for their own blockchain to use. Also how long do you think it will be possible to get funding out of the same small group of people?

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase?  That is how it works ?  So if someone else created a far superior Namecoin without any users, they wouldn't have an advantage ?  ::)  KeyID/DNS doesn't even necessarily overlap much with the people who are interested in BTSX.

People will use the products due to value they perceive in using it. Your account is quite new so I assume you see everything in BTSX tinted glasses.  Ok... I get it.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 18, 2014, 01:24:29 am
It's interesting over the past weeks to hear everybody saying

"Gee, I hope there a Plan B for Marketing this stuff."

Apparently there are those who wouldn't recognize a Plan B if it sneaked up and bit them in the assets.

:)


With all due respect this seems like a terrible way to market btsx. I can't think of any consumers who are craving decentralized voting to the extent that they will actively seek it out themselves, or let it go viral in any way. It seems like something that itself needs a gargantuan marketing budget to tell people and organizations why they actually need it.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 18, 2014, 01:25:31 am
 +5% to everything Rune has posted. You need the initial network effect before you can start focusing on taking over other industries. Think Google: did search engines amazingly well, earned network effect because of it, then began to take over every other industry they possibly could.

Timing is important, and the BTSX first-mover hype engine is already rapidly decelerating.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 18, 2014, 01:31:10 am
New DACs give additional funding to the ecosystem.  People who have been here from earlier days may not have as much of an interest in BTSX as people new.  IMO Voting DAC is basically the same as the KeyID DAC, so there will be even more value in terms of potential dev money.

I'm much happier seeing I3/whoever diversify outside BitsharesX.  To not lay groundwork elsewhere would be foolish.   We get better strategic positioning via first mover type stuff.  We get more funding to help the ecosystem as a whole.  We benefit.

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase. Having an empty DAC will give no advantage at all. An established network with active users will come along and take whatever innovations they can for their own blockchain to use. Also how long do you think it will be possible to get funding out of the same small group of people?

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase?  That is how it works ?  So if someone else created a far superior Namecoin without any users, they wouldn't have an advantage ?  ::)  KeyID/DNS doesn't even necessarily overlap much with the people who are interested in BTSX.

People will use the products due to value they perceive in using it. Your account is quite new so I assume you see everything in BTSX tinted glasses.  Ok... I get it.

Metcalfes law. Namecoin is currently 100% useless precisely because no one uses it. OB might change that, but a better version of Namecoin coming along would not be able to piggyback off that in any way, and would thus be as useless as Namecoin currently is.

The only way to attract new users en masse "out of nowhere" is through monetary incentive, and that is why currently BTSX IS bitshares, as it is the only bitshares DAC with the potential to attract users. Once btsx gains a network, then the other DACs might actually benefit from it and the greater ecosystem can be established and grow. Without btsx growth, there will be nothing.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: tonyk on October 18, 2014, 01:32:17 am
Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix as I improve the toolkit. 

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Anyway, btsx will thrive and grow in parallel.

in Parallel???????????????????

Please, please, please!

Let's finish the new earth... before building the new solar system...

When Mercury-Atlas manned orbital missions were blasting off from Launch Complex 14

In parallel Gemini-Titan II two man missions were being prepared for Launch Complex 19

In parallel we were preparing Apollo-Saturn launch facilities at Launch Complex 39

(http://www.nbbd.com/events/NASAimages/CapeCanaveralLaunchPads.png)

This is a fast-break offense.

Mercury-Atlas It first flew on 29 July 1960, conducting the suborbital Mercury-Atlas 1 test flight. The rocket suffered a structural failure shortly after launch, and as a result failed to place the spacecraft onto its intended trajectory....


Hope you are ready with similar budget as NASA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA )

 and you are prepared for likely structural failure ...


Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 01:51:11 am
1) All work on web wallets will work for all DACs.
2) All work on partnerships benefits all DACs
3) All bug fixes on core code (network, RPC, etc) benefit all DACs
4) AGS funds received after Feb 28th need to be spent on infrastructure other than BTSX and "now".
5) The new project will be self funded, not being funded by BTSX development fund.
6) BTSX will likely be funded by the new project.


7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: 天籁 on October 18, 2014, 01:58:59 am
 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
1) All work on web wallets will work for all DACs.
2) All work on partnerships benefits all DACs
3) All bug fixes on core code (network, RPC, etc) benefit all DACs
4) AGS funds received after Feb 28th need to be spent on infrastructure other than BTSX and "now".
5) The new project will be self funded, not being funded by BTSX development fund.
6) BTSX will likely be funded by the new project.


7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: robrigo on October 18, 2014, 01:59:55 am
It seems to me that there is a fair amount of misplaced concern in this thread that BTSX is getting pushed to the back burner. If you look at the commit history for the toolkit you'll notice there is a lot of work being pushed daily to fix stability issues: https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/commits/develop

The brilliance here is that this is bolstering ALL DACs! I think the recent price drop has some people in panic mode. Take a deep breath and BUY / HODL imo!

Oh, and as for the recent VOTE push... I would look at the latest FMV blog post:

http://followmyvote.com/follow-my-vote-joins-cavo/

Coupled with the bill that prompted the formation of CAVO:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB360

Perhaps the newfound "push" is pursuant of a huge opportunity for BitVote (and democratic elections in the U.S. at large)? Perhaps this opportunity is constrained by time and a reorganization of some priorities are in order? Parallel computing is much faster and more efficient than single core after all. I for one trust Dan's task scheduling algorithm.

It would seem to me that a state sponsored election on BitVote is very much in the cards (pending the necessary functionality is implemented to demo to the state of California).
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 02:01:26 am
(http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/61/45/010519/boeing-s3g1h_n2-logo.jpg)

A lot of components had to be engineered to reach the moon.

See that big 1st Stage?   Yeah, that's BitShares VOTE.

(Meanwhile, we already have people working on all the other stages.)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 02:01:54 am
New DACs give additional funding to the ecosystem.  People who have been here from earlier days may not have as much of an interest in BTSX as people new.  IMO Voting DAC is basically the same as the KeyID DAC, so there will be even more value in terms of potential dev money.

I'm much happier seeing I3/whoever diversify outside BitsharesX.  To not lay groundwork elsewhere would be foolish.   We get better strategic positioning via first mover type stuff.  We get more funding to help the ecosystem as a whole.  We benefit.

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase. Having an empty DAC will give no advantage at all. An established network with active users will come along and take whatever innovations they can for their own blockchain to use. Also how long do you think it will be possible to get funding out of the same small group of people?

There is no first mover advantage without a userbase?  That is how it works ?  So if someone else created a far superior Namecoin without any users, they wouldn't have an advantage ?  ::)  KeyID/DNS doesn't even necessarily overlap much with the people who are interested in BTSX.

People will use the products due to value they perceive in using it. Your account is quite new so I assume you see everything in BTSX tinted glasses.  Ok... I get it.

Metcalfes law. Namecoin is currently 100% useless precisely because no one uses it. OB might change that, but a better version of Namecoin coming along would not be able to piggyback off that in any way, and would thus be as useless as Namecoin currently is.

The only way to attract new users en masse "out of nowhere" is through monetary incentive, and that is why currently BTSX IS bitshares, as it is the only bitshares DAC with the potential to attract users. Once btsx gains a network, then the other DACs might actually benefit from it and the greater ecosystem can be established and grow. Without btsx growth, there will be nothing.

I've heard people suggest JDS might have a very high valuation.  So I don't think your premise is true. 

I think I3 would be in a far worse position if they just let a better Namecoin come around. 

I figure there are likely 2 camps. Those who want more DACs and the toolkit the mature and those who want absolutely everything put into Bitshares X.  I have about as much in AngelShares post Bitshares X snapshot as pre.  That money shouldn't all be put into a speculative position for BTSX, because that is not why people were putting into AGS when they donated post Feb 28 AFAIK.

I want BTSX to succeed more than anyone, but it is just one possible out. While BTSX solves the largest need, it also has the largest competition. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xh3 on October 18, 2014, 02:10:07 am
 +5%  I trust it.  there's bound to be some bumps along the way, but I think BM and friends have thought out most of the possibilities.  There's bound to be continued loss of value in btsX while it's development is left idle however.  :-\
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 02:16:27 am
+5%  I trust it.  there's bound to be some bumps along the way, but I think BM and friends have thought out most of the possibilities.  There's bound to be continued loss of value in btsX while it's development is left idle however.  :-\

Nobody said anything about leaving it idle.
Nobody said anything about diverting resources.
The Eastern and Western Marketing Teams are now finalizing their Launch Facilities.
Their planned loud, earth shattering kaboom they have been promising is still coming.
Meanwhile our advanced concepts team continues to do what it does best:
 work on advanced concepts.
We need to keep the innovation pipeline filled.
Bytemaster is our pipeline filler.
(And you get to see what's entering that pipeline as soon as it happens!)
Sweat not.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 02:19:32 am
It seems to me that there is a fair amount of misplaced concern in this thread that BTSX is getting pushed to the back burner. If you look at the commit history for the toolkit you'll notice there is a lot of work being pushed daily to fix stability issues: https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/commits/develop

The brilliance here is that this is bolstering ALL DACs! I think the recent price drop has some people in panic mode. Take a deep breath and BUY / HODL imo!

Oh, and as for the recent VOTE push... I would look at the latest FMV blog post:

http://followmyvote.com/follow-my-vote-joins-cavo/

Coupled with the bill that prompted the formation of CAVO:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB360

Perhaps the newfound "push" is pursuant of a huge opportunity for BitVote (and democratic elections in the U.S. at large)? Perhaps this opportunity is constrained by time and a reorganization of some priorities are in order? Parallel computing is much faster and more efficient than single core after all. I for one trust Dan's task scheduling algorithm.

It would seem to me that a state sponsored election on BitVote is very much in the cards (pending the necessary functionality is implemented to demo to the state of California).

Ding Ding Ding Ding... we have a winner. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Riverhead on October 18, 2014, 02:21:11 am
If everyone thinks you're nuts you must be doing something right.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 18, 2014, 02:21:46 am
So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 02:22:01 am
If everyone thinks you're nuts you must be doing something right.

Then NuBits is on to something?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 02:26:11 am
If everyone thinks you're nuts you must be doing something right.

"If we weren't all crazy
we would go insane.
"

        -- Jimmy Buffet

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CLains on October 18, 2014, 02:28:55 am
My job is to lead not code.

Now that's what I am looking for. +5%
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 18, 2014, 02:53:24 am
... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

See that's the part that worries an investor such as myself. I have a small AGS donation, but a very large stake in BTSX. Now suddenly my BTSX stake has competition with itself. Should I plan to sell my stake and get more into VOTEs when they start trading? Tough to determine the most profitable route, especially when the details are still under wraps...  :-\
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Riverhead on October 18, 2014, 02:56:03 am
If everyone thinks you're nuts you must be doing something right.

Then NuBits is on to something?

No one thinks they are nuts. Dishonest and deceitful perhaps, but not nuts.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 02:58:18 am
So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but to also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.
2) BTSX is multi-asset exchange and there will be many clones of it for many different assets... this VOTE DAC cannot support the transaction volume of all of those assets *AND* do everything else we want it to do... thus it will not be competing with BTSX as a store of wealth or exchange with derivatives. 
3) This new DAC will be funding features that will help BTSX holders... ie: my plan to fund BTSX growth without diluting BTSX.   BTSX is just swapping its tech for BitUSD for the tech funded by the other DAC and both sides win.   As a result BTSX development funds will mostly be used for "bug fixes" and "porting features" rather than developing new features.   
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 03:05:09 am
Please don't reveal any details. I urge you to keep the secret sauce SECRET until it is ready to be released. There are a lots of ideas that are coming from this forum and now they are used by others and 0 credit given.
Bitshare toolkit is opensource so anybody can do whatever they please with it and this is perfect, but this is enough. There's too much information and ideas discussed publicly already that should not be reveal until they are done.

It is very clear that BitsareX will continue to be developed at full speed. I don't even know where the idea came that development will slow.
Actually if Bytemaster will work to Vote in parallel this is good. The fundamentals ideas of BitshareX are done, the peg is working the rules of trading are final now. What is left be done it is a lot of development a lots of coding , wallet, light wallet, trading software, marketing. This is important but you don't need Bytmaster for that...ohh by the way he's not leaving he'll surely make sure that Bitshare will be whatever everyone here and himself wanted to be.
Please people, the whole thing here exist because of Bytemaster idea and he delivered, so if the guy is saying that it is worth working in parallel for something that could be bigger than Bitshare X ... then what the hell are you arguing about ? What all of you want is Bytemaster to be a leader not a coder, but already you know he'll do both.
Please stop putting  pressure to reveal any more information until is to late, we shoot ourselves in the foot here just putting all our strategy in plain view.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 03:05:49 am
... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

See that's the part that worries an investor such as myself. I have a small AGS donation, but a very large stake in BTSX. Now suddenly my BTSX stake has competition with itself. Should I plan to sell my stake and get more into VOTEs when they start trading? Tough to determine the most profitable route, especially when the details are still under wraps...  :-\

I hear you.

Of course, taking off the wraps prematurely could cause you to wind up with nothing.

Bottom line, people on this forum will know what they need to know before 99.999% of their competition.

To the vigilant go the spoils.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Riverhead on October 18, 2014, 03:05:56 am
It would seem to me that a state sponsored election on BitVote is very much in the cards (pending the necessary functionality is implemented to demo to the state of California).

Welcome to the big leagues. Good thing we have world class devs and business guidance.

Stan I hope you write a book one day. Something tells me it'd tell quite a tale...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 03:07:52 am
Please don't reveal any details. I urge you to keep the secret sauce SECRET until it is ready to be released. There are a lots of ideas that are coming from this forum and now they are used by others and 0 credit given.
Bitshare toolkit is opensource so anybody can do whatever they please with it and this is perfect, but this is enough. There's too much information and ideas discussed publicly already that should not be reveal until they are done.

It very clear that BitsareX will continue to be developed at full speed. I don't even know where the idea came that development will slow.
Actually if Bytemaster will work to Vote in parallel this is good. The fundamentals ideas of BitshareX are done, the peg is working the rules of trading are final now. What is left be done it is a lot of development a lots of coding , wallet, light wallet, trading software, marketing. This is important but you don't need Bytmaster for that...ohh by the way he's not leaving he'll surely make sure that Bitshare will be whatever everyone here and himself wanted to be.
Please people, the whole thing here exist because of Bytemaster idea and he delivered, so if the guy is saying that it is worth working in parallel for something that could be bigger than Bitshare X ... then what the hell are you arguing about ? What all of you want is Bytemaster to be a leader not a coder, but already you know he'll do both.
Please stop putting  pressure to reveal any more information until is to late, we shoot ourselves in the foot here just putting all out strategy in plain view.

This.  Thank you.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 03:08:49 am
I have not revealed the true secret sauce.... and will not say anything more about our strategy for VOTE / etc...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 03:10:09 am
So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but to also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.
2) BTSX is multi-asset exchange and there will be many clones of it for many different assets... this VOTE DAC cannot support the transaction volume of all of those assets *AND* do everything else we want it to do... thus it will not be competing with BTSX as a store of wealth or exchange with derivatives. 
3) This new DAC will be funding features that will help BTSX holders... ie: my plan to fund BTSX growth without diluting BTSX.   BTSX is just swapping its tech for BitUSD for the tech funded by the other DAC and both sides win.   As a result BTSX development funds will mostly be used for "bug fixes" and "porting features" rather than developing new features.

1. Will the VOTE DAC have it's own BitUSD backed by shares of VOTE?

2. If so do you know if the BitUSD debit cards that have been mentioned will be launched and marketed using BitUSD backed by VOTE or BitUSD backed by BTSX?

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 03:17:26 am
So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but to also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.
2) BTSX is multi-asset exchange and there will be many clones of it for many different assets... this VOTE DAC cannot support the transaction volume of all of those assets *AND* do everything else we want it to do... thus it will not be competing with BTSX as a store of wealth or exchange with derivatives. 
3) This new DAC will be funding features that will help BTSX holders... ie: my plan to fund BTSX growth without diluting BTSX.   BTSX is just swapping its tech for BitUSD for the tech funded by the other DAC and both sides win.   As a result BTSX development funds will mostly be used for "bug fixes" and "porting features" rather than developing new features.

1. Will the VOTE DAC have it's own BitUSD backed by shares of VOTE?

2. If so do you know if the BitUSD debit cards that have been mentioned will be launched and marketed using BitUSD backed by VOTE or BitUSD backed by BTSX?

1. Yes
2. Both

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: 天籁 on October 18, 2014, 03:48:04 am
 +5%
I have not revealed the true secret sauce.... and will not say anything more about our strategy for VOTE / etc...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Tuck Fheman on October 18, 2014, 05:01:30 am
Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Please elaborate.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 05:05:55 am
So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but to also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.
2) BTSX is multi-asset exchange and there will be many clones of it for many different assets... this VOTE DAC cannot support the transaction volume of all of those assets *AND* do everything else we want it to do... thus it will not be competing with BTSX as a store of wealth or exchange with derivatives. 
3) This new DAC will be funding features that will help BTSX holders... ie: my plan to fund BTSX growth without diluting BTSX.   BTSX is just swapping its tech for BitUSD for the tech funded by the other DAC and both sides win.   As a result BTSX development funds will mostly be used for "bug fixes" and "porting features" rather than developing new features.

1. Will the VOTE DAC have it's own BitUSD backed by shares of VOTE?

2. If so do you know if the BitUSD debit cards that have been mentioned will be launched and marketed using BitUSD backed by VOTE or BitUSD backed by BTSX?

1. Yes
2. Both

Ok thanks. That makes it seem a bit like BTSX + dilution except it doesn't snapshot off BTSX.

Be interested to see what the secret sauce is.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 05:35:20 am
Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 

Please elaborate.

The BTSX received via PTS angel address has to last... ie: BTSX must grow faster than the funds are spent or BTSX will be in the same boat as Bitcoin when it comes to paying for ongoing development.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Shentist on October 18, 2014, 06:04:57 am
every day is just waiting and more and different promises!

if you could not say anything it is fine.

what i whant to see is something like a probable timeline for all BTS chains - starting with BTSX

we are working at:
1. mobile app (expect Dec. 14)
2. .....
and so on

we want to work need more funds:

1. ....

maybe bytemaster or stan can put a summery together what was accomplished till now and what is coming in the next weeks.

this will be invested good time, because it feels like the people loosing some faith.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 18, 2014, 06:11:30 am
every day is just waiting and more and different promises!

if you could not say anything it is fine.

what i whant to see is something like a probable timeline for all BTS chains - starting with BTSX

we are working at:
1. mobile app (expect Dec. 14)
2. .....
and so on

we want to work need more funds:

1. ....

maybe bytemaster or stan can put a summery together what was accomplished till now and what is coming in the next weeks.

this will be invested good time, because it feels like the people loosing some faith.

You must be new here.... except your post count suggests otherwise..

We don't post timelines because we will always miss them.
We have many things we want to do and things are being done by different people.
Business partners is a large majority of work to be done.

We are actively working on:
1) Notification system for light weight clients
2) Interest on Shorts
3) Escrow
4) A vote demo by Dec 7th.

These should be out within the next month.  (Not a light weight client, just the foundation for it).

High in the queue:
1) Rework of BTSX GUI to be more user friendly and pretty... estimated time about 1 month from start of effort... likely this year, but no promises.





Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bennyliaa on October 18, 2014, 06:17:56 am
1) All work on web wallets will work for all DACs.
2) All work on partnerships benefits all DACs
3) All bug fixes on core code (network, RPC, etc) benefit all DACs
4) AGS funds received after Feb 28th need to be spent on infrastructure other than BTSX and "now".
5) The new project will be self funded, not being funded by BTSX development fund.
6) BTSX will likely be funded by the new project.


7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

 +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Shentist on October 18, 2014, 06:32:29 am
every day is just waiting and more and different promises!

if you could not say anything it is fine.

what i whant to see is something like a probable timeline for all BTS chains - starting with BTSX

we are working at:
1. mobile app (expect Dec. 14)
2. .....
and so on

we want to work need more funds:

1. ....

maybe bytemaster or stan can put a summery together what was accomplished till now and what is coming in the next weeks.

this will be invested good time, because it feels like the people loosing some faith.

You must be new here.... except your post count suggests otherwise..

We don't post timelines because we will always miss them.
We have many things we want to do and things are being done by different people.
Business partners is a large majority of work to be done.

We are actively working on:
1) Notification system for light weight clients
2) Interest on Shorts
3) Escrow
4) A vote demo by Dec 7th.

These should be out within the next month.  (Not a light weight client, just the foundation for it).

High in the queue:
1) Rework of BTSX GUI to be more user friendly and pretty... estimated time about 1 month from start of effort... likely this year, but no promises.



new? i am not, but you have many thing to do and not to recognise my name is ok with me.

do you not feel, now is the time to write a summery? what was achieved, what will come...wil help the community without much to say (because >400 posts are not recognised at all  ;) ). just ask yourself, what do you want now if you has nothing to say, no one will hear your voice and maybe some new people are coming. maybe you want a good summery where everything is heading now and what timeframe can we expect.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 07:15:07 am
new? i am not, but you have many thing to do and not to recognise my name is ok with me.

do you not feel, now is the time to write a summery? what was achieved, what will come...wil help the community without much to say (because >400 posts are not recognised at all  ;) ). just ask yourself, what do you want now if you has nothing to say, no one will hear your voice and maybe some new people are coming. maybe you want a good summery where everything is heading now and what timeframe can we expect.

You accused him of just making random "promises".  If you have been paying attention things change constantly around here.  I don't like to defend bytemaster too much because he can do it himself, but this information is spread about.  Giving out specific timeframes just causes more and more issues in software development.  I haven't seen many if any "promises" that have not been met.  The Bitshares team has done pretty well for its size and what they have accomplished. 

I've been trying to work to get the mostly weekly update translated to Chinese.  Bytemaster is there to answer all questions and every 2 out of 3 weeks he gives an update on what has changed or been accomplished.  It isn't fair that English speakers get this info, but I've been trying to get a Chinese translation of the show.

 So you want him to do 2 updates now.  Then everyone else wants him to only work on BTSX.  It never stops.  Bytemaster is more responsive than a solid majority of devs IMO and gives plenty of time to forum. 


Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: betax on October 18, 2014, 07:25:52 am
Bytemaster has provided roadmap without compromises timeline, so that is good enough. We don't know his plans for Vote so it is seems that BTSX is going to benefit from this, but it could be the other way around, who knows.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 18, 2014, 07:47:42 am
1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.

Now I'm confused? It is up to shareholders to determine if BTSX has a "hard cap of 2 billion". If shareholders deem it necessary they can vote in delegates that support delusion, right?

From the "How much is a new user worth?" thread (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0)) it seems like +60% of the people are for delusion as long as there is a good plan. And many of the people who were against it change their minds and some even said it should be done if need be but only as a last resort.

So BTSX doesn't have a hard cap and doesn't have limited growth potential. Or at least I think it should be left up to shareholders to decide if it does.

Or have I missed something???
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Shentist on October 18, 2014, 08:09:11 am
new? i am not, but you have many thing to do and not to recognise my name is ok with me.

do you not feel, now is the time to write a summery? what was achieved, what will come...wil help the community without much to say (because >400 posts are not recognised at all  ;) ). just ask yourself, what do you want now if you has nothing to say, no one will hear your voice and maybe some new people are coming. maybe you want a good summery where everything is heading now and what timeframe can we expect.

You accused him of just making random "promises".  If you have been paying attention things change constantly around here.  I don't like to defend bytemaster too much because he can do it himself, but this information is spread about.  Giving out specific timeframes just causes more and more issues in software development.  I haven't seen many if any "promises" that have not been met.  The Bitshares team has done pretty well for its size and what they have accomplished. 

I've been trying to work to get the mostly weekly update translated to Chinese.  Bytemaster is there to answer all questions and every 2 out of 3 weeks he gives an update on what has changed or been accomplished.  It isn't fair that English speakers get this info, but I've been trying to get a Chinese translation of the show.

 So you want him to do 2 updates now.  Then everyone else wants him to only work on BTSX.  It never stops.  Bytemaster is more responsive than a solid majority of devs IMO and gives plenty of time to forum. 



i did not, or wanted to do that. Please excuse my english, it is just a foreign language for me, and maybe sometimes it sounds strange to you what i say.

what i wanted to express is that it is really hard or impossible to follow the "things" are going on, if you are not an "insider". i am just reading and writing every day on this forum, but i am more convused with this half backed "i can not say anything" post then before. i don't know what is going on with BTSX etc. etc.

with timeline i don't mean something to set in stone, but it would be nice to know what is at the moment in the making and what time of "arrivel" can we expect. If this is to much or not wanted, fine, maybe i am the only one who wants something like this as a sticky on top of each DAC.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 08:24:07 am
i did not, or wanted to do that. Please excuse my english, it is just a foreign language for me, and maybe sometimes it sounds strange to you what i say.

what i wanted to express is that it is really hard or impossible to follow the "things" are going on, if you are not an "insider". i am just reading and writing every day on this forum, but i am more convused with this half backed "i can not say anything" post then before. i don't know what is going on with BTSX etc. etc.

with timeline i don't mean something to set in stone, but it would be nice to know what is at the moment in the making and what time of "arrivel" can we expect. If this is to much or not wanted, fine, maybe i am the only one who wants something like this as a sticky on top of each DAC.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of other coins like to just steal ideas and claim they're part of their "roadmap".  Really, what do you lose when you are an anonymous dev of a project ?  You can claim you will be implementing all these features.  We might as well just keep it somewhat secret to maintain competitive advantage.  I would still like to see the specifics of things discussed openly though, just so that the community can go over ideas and prune out the bad ones. So I'm not sure what the best answer is.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mint chocolate chip on October 18, 2014, 08:37:20 am
By 'Getting Out the Vote' many new users will potentially be introduced to the BitShares ecosystem.


Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: kisa on October 18, 2014, 08:58:14 am
opinion polls is a big business... firms get paid to conduct them, and people get paid to participate... promising synergy of decentralised voting with decentralised payments in one app... "answer our poll and you get paid in bitUSD" :)

for I3 and all of us, being flexible when opportunities arise may be much more valuable than adhering to a pre-designed plan. "Chance favors the prepared mind"  - L. Pasteur
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:01:06 am
It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD? 

Also there have been numerous offers by btsx holders to raise funds for btsx. If more funds would be useful then lets do a fundraiser. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 09:09:33 am
It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD?


 I have been a buyer of BitShares and BTSX since day 1. This news is the first thing I've ever sold on.

It was really painful as BTSX has such a low valuation but I didn't hesitate.

The product you have donated to and the marketing strategy for it is being forked by the lead developer in a project not directly snapshotted off BTSX. So you are now in a position more than ever  of requiring to have faith that this new DAC is not designed to directly compete with BTSX in some markets and that the lead developers positions in other DACs won't cause them to favour them more.

I'm keeping the vast majority of my position because I have faith but as a poker player, I certainly can't let faith make me the sucker at a poker table. So it is with regret that I have sold some. I will adjust my position as more information is revealed but it's frustrating to have to sell at all as BitAssets are a $100 Billion baby.






Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 18, 2014, 09:13:09 am
What value will a decentralized voting DAC offer that a centralized solution absolutely can't? Will we be proving unique human through KYC verification? Get BitUSD and vote at the same time? Is the BitUSD created backed with BTSX or VOTE tokens?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:13:35 am
It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD?


The product you have donated to and the marketing strategy for it is being forked by the lead developer in a project not directly snapshotted off BTSX.

Now that's an idea, if the Vote Dac snapshotted BTSX holders a portion of the shares, that would be ok.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:17:05 am


Hongkong has multiple banks issue their version of HONGKONG DOLLOR.
Over the years,all the version of the HONGKONG DOLLOR still exist together peacefully.And none of them has the less value than the others.
As long as 1 BTSX-USD = 1 VOTE-USD,the benefit is mutual for both system.
It's not drawing blood when they're in the same ecosystem.
And I don't think some payment service would use "vote-bitusd" to issue a debit card instead of the BTSX-bitusd.

Not true because when bitUSD which is backed by BTSX is bought it directly increases the value of BTSX.  A competing bitUSD on another blockchain is not a good idea and harms BTSX.  It's a direct attack, forking the main product of BTSX.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 18, 2014, 09:20:59 am
It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD? 

Also there have been numerous offers by btsx holders to raise funds for btsx. If more funds would be useful then lets do a fundraiser.

All Bitshares DACs features will be usable in any other DAC with any DACs token via "atomic cross chain trading" or w/e it's called. There will not be a separate bitUSD for Vote, it will use BTSX's bitUSD. Thus if it is popular (vote) it will do marketing for BTSX as fees will be earned by BTSX by the use of bitUSD, it will provide more volume in the bitUSD market, and by buying bitUSD via vote DAC more BTSX will be tied up in the form of collateral for the bitUSD.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 09:21:22 am
It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD?


The product you have donated to and the marketing strategy for it is being forked by the lead developer in a project not directly snapshotted off BTSX.

Now that's an idea, if the Vote Dac snapshotted BTSX holders a portion of the shares, that would be ok.

If you have faith then you'll believe that this move will add far more value to BTSX than it will take away. I'm keeping the vast majority of my position because I believe this is the intention and will 90%+ probably be the case.

It's not very encouraging when the leader of the project you've invested in says the project is "hamstrung" and "limited growth potential" and now reveals this vote dac he's working on instead (with some unknown amount of transferable tech) will a have its own bitUSD rather than using bitshare's X bitUSD, which, if this was really about a way to fund BTSX would be an obvious move surely, as that directly increases the value of BTSX.  Why does it need its own bitUSD? 

Also there have been numerous offers by btsx holders to raise funds for btsx. If more funds would be useful then lets do a fundraiser.

All Bitshares DACs features will be usable in any other DAC with any DACs token via "atomic cross chain trading" or w/e it's called. There will not be a separate bitUSD for Vote, it will use BTSX's bitUSD. Thus if it is popular (vote) it will do marketing for BTSX as fees will be earned by BTSX by the use of bitUSD, it will provide more volume in the bitUSD market, and by buying bitUSD via vote DAC more BTSX will be tied up in the form of collateral for the bitUSD.

No. My understanding is VOTE will have it's own competing BitUSD.

Read the two questions at the end.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 18, 2014, 09:33:08 am
Hmm, it seems you are right. That is unfortunate.. BitsharesVote should use BTSX's bitUSD without even knowing that they are by tying the chains together.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:35:43 am
If the Vote dac used BTSX's bitUSD that would be fine, brilliant idea, launch more dacs that use bitassets.  Great way to increase demand.   I don't know why that's not the plan :s
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 18, 2014, 09:46:49 am
 +5%, you make some excellent points matt & empirical. This is the kind of stuff that worries me, and I hope BM seriously considers what you guys are saying...

Investors need to feel confident that their BTSX investment won't be cannibalized.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Chuckone on October 18, 2014, 09:57:15 am
From this page: http://followmyvote.com/follow-my-vote-joins-cavo/

"We are both extremely excited that legislation now exists in California for county voting registrars to begin using government funds to explore pilot programs for elections that include open source voting solutions."

BTSX funding is limited... Get government funding on board to improve Voting and its technology... oh and look, all the parts of the software are open-source, and they fit perfectly within BTSX, and they improve the current technology... And then suddenly by piggybacking Votes you have government funding to improve BTSX.

Synergy... That's the way I interpret this word from Stan...

No way, I'm not selling any of my BTSX.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: liondani on October 18, 2014, 09:58:41 am
That will split demand for bitUSD to a couple of bitshares "coins"...

bitshares_music bitUSD
bitsharesx_ bitUSD
bitshares_vote bitUSD
etc...
etc...
...
each time a new bitUSD version comes out... the bitUSD will get weaker and weaker... Am I missing something?
Except there is a great plan in place that will provide liquidity/demand to all different bitUSDs.


Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 18, 2014, 10:00:45 am
From this page: http://followmyvote.com/follow-my-vote-joins-cavo/

"We are both extremely excited that legislation now exists in California for county voting registrars to begin using government funds to explore pilot programs for elections that include open source voting solutions."

BTSX funding is limited... Get government funding on board to improve Voting and its technology... oh and look, all the parts of the software are open-source, and they fit perfectly within BTSX, and they improve the current technology... And then suddenly you have government funding to improve BTSX.

Synergy... That's the way I interpret this word from Stan...

No way, I'm not selling any of my BTSX.

I truly hope your interpretation is right.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Chuckone on October 18, 2014, 10:08:12 am
From this page: http://followmyvote.com/follow-my-vote-joins-cavo/

"We are both extremely excited that legislation now exists in California for county voting registrars to begin using government funds to explore pilot programs for elections that include open source voting solutions."

BTSX funding is limited... Get government funding on board to improve Voting and its technology... oh and look, all the parts of the software are open-source, and they fit perfectly within BTSX, and they improve the current technology... And then suddenly you have government funding to improve BTSX.

Synergy... That's the way I interpret this word from Stan...

No way, I'm not selling any of my BTSX.

I truly hope your interpretation is right.

And yet we will not know for sure before there are any official announcements, since the secret sauce must remain secret...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 10:17:26 am
From this page: http://followmyvote.com/follow-my-vote-joins-cavo/

"We are both extremely excited that legislation now exists in California for county voting registrars to begin using government funds to explore pilot programs for elections that include open source voting solutions."

BTSX funding is limited... Get government funding on board to improve Voting and its technology... oh and look, all the parts of the software are open-source, and they fit perfectly within BTSX, and they improve the current technology... And then suddenly by piggybacking Votes you have government funding to improve BTSX.

Synergy... That's the way I interpret this word from Stan...

No way, I'm not selling any of my BTSX.
+5%

I am once again in full t(h)rust mode on this ...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 10:19:44 am
That will split demand for bitUSD to a couple of bitshares "coins"...

bitshares_music bitUSD
bitsharesx_ bitUSD
bitshares_vote bitUSD
etc...
etc...
...
each time a new bitUSD version comes out... the bitUSD will get weaker and weaker... Am I missing something?
Except there is a great plan in place that will provide liquidity/demand to all different bitUSDs.
Thar. Not an issue .. only differences are the spread in the dacs .. not the value itself ...

So people will try to buy bitUSD in the market with smallest spread/highea liquidity. ...

Pretty much the same we have with altcoin PRICES on different exchanges ...
But now be are talking spread/liquidity and not price
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 18, 2014, 10:22:36 am
Thought experiment: Where would Google be today if Larry and Sergey had spread their effort over search, email and video as opposed to focusing exclusively on search? Would any of these products exist under the Google brand?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 18, 2014, 10:34:38 am
That will split demand for bitUSD to a couple of bitshares "coins"...

bitshares_music bitUSD
bitsharesx_ bitUSD
bitshares_vote bitUSD
etc...
etc...
...
each time a new bitUSD version comes out... the bitUSD will get weaker and weaker... Am I missing something?
Except there is a great plan in place that will provide liquidity/demand to all different bitUSDs.
Thar. Not an issue .. only differences are the spread in the dacs .. not the value itself ...

So people will try to buy bitUSD in the market with smallest spread/highea liquidity. ...

Pretty much the same we have with altcoin PRICES on different exchanges ...
But now be are talking spread/liquidity and not price

So in theory if the Vote DAC gets bigger than btsx the bitUSD on there would be more sought after than on the bitUSD on the btsx exchange because of less spread.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 10:50:44 am
So in theory if the Vote DAC gets bigger than btsx the bitUSD on there would be more sought after than on the bitUSD on the btsx exchange because of less spread.
How knows ...

IMHO liquidity has nothing to do with the 'value' of the base asset (BTSX, or VOTE) .. more about marketing and options ..
in VOTE you don't have options .. USD is the single only asset .. in BTSX you can hedge against GLD SLV ....

But I think you get the difference ... instead of choosing your favorit altcoin exchange by highest price .. you now choose your favorit (decentralized) exchange by liquidity / spread
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 11:08:56 am
That will split demand for bitUSD to a couple of bitshares "coins"...

bitshares_music bitUSD
bitsharesx_ bitUSD
bitshares_vote bitUSD
etc...
etc...
...
each time a new bitUSD version comes out... the bitUSD will get weaker and weaker... Am I missing something?
Except there is a great plan in place that will provide liquidity/demand to all different bitUSDs.

The only BitUSD can trade with Bitgold\BitSilver\BitCNY\BitBTC...directly is BTSX_BitUSD.
Vote_USD can only trade with Vote_note.
Music_USD can only trade with Music_note.
That's the value of BTSX_BitUSD.

You think VOTE won't add their own BitAssets if they corner BitUSD?

(Also if it's as big as BM thinks then from a marketing POV, BTSX loses BitUSD and it becomes BTSX-USD & BTSX-Assets. There can be only one main 'BitUSD' in the market that is not tied to the DAC name, just like there can be only one Bitcoin.)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 11:18:01 am
You think VOTE won't add their own BitAssets if they corner BitUSD?
But what's the snapshot for then?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 11:19:41 am
There are many people reading this post that get confused, panic and dump their BTSX and wait for the next big thing coming out i.e VOTE. It is very important that BTSX holds now at this market cap and then is boosted in parallel with VOTE, or DNS or whatever.

These teasers about Vote are great and much appreciated and give me more confidence about my BTSX. But, the same time I read comments from bytemaster that BTSX growth is limited due to the 2 bil cap. How limited? To $100 mil market cap already reached or to billions of market cap? I hope is the latter. 

We need to separate ourselves from Bitcoin and trust the new ecosystem. Diversification should happen between BTSX, DNS, MUSIC, VOTE, bitassets and not bitcoin in order to create the new ecosystem.
Now we have a GUI BTSX client that even it is not very user friendly, it is quite stable. I can finally  use the client to trade and it looks like there is no participation what so ever in the client. Apparently everyone is happy with their position so there is not much trading so I really hope that VOTE can boost demand for BTSX by increasing it's market cap, liquidity and trading and not kill this beautiful experiment called BTSX.

If BTSX doesn't hold now, then I am pretty sure that no matter what happens when VOTE is out, everyone will think that it will get pumped and then dumped until something else comes out..DAC Insurance maybe?

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 11:34:09 am
You think VOTE won't add their own BitAssets if they corner BitUSD?
But what's the snapshot for then?

What do you mean?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 11:40:34 am
What do you mean?
There was a VOTE snapshot ... to figure out initial distribution .. for what? if not VOTE!
if there was only bitUSD as asset on the "chain" .. then what's the snapshot good for?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: BTSdac on October 18, 2014, 11:47:32 am
So bytemaster, when are you planning on letting us in on the details of this brilliant new way of doing the Voting DAC? The teasing is so painful.

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)

I'm still finding the fact that this could have larger (or even comparable) market cap than BTSX very hard to believe, but I guess I will have to wait for the details. I assume the market cap comes from the demand for BitUSD (I am surprised the only BitAsset planned for that chain is BitUSD). Not sure where the demand for BitUSD comes from though? I don't see how holding more BitUSD would (or even should) give one more voting power in elections. I'm assuming and hoping the Voting DAC is still going to be designed with the capability of supporting traditional elections where each unique human has one vote.

The other thing I want to mention (which may very well not be relevant at all) is that if the DAC's purpose has changed to not just be about voting but to also to act as a decentralized bank and exchange AND means of paying for goods/services in the real world (essentially making BitShares X obsolete), then in my opinion it is only fair for that DAC to snapshot off of BTSX instead of PTS/AGS. But if its purpose truly is only for voting and BitShares X is the DAC meant for a store of value and to hold the BitCurrencies that the world standardizes around to pay for goods/services in the physical world, then the current snapshot of Voting DAC is fair.

1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.
2) BTSX is multi-asset exchange and there will be many clones of it for many different assets... this VOTE DAC cannot support the transaction volume of all of those assets *AND* do everything else we want it to do... thus it will not be competing with BTSX as a store of wealth or exchange with derivatives. 
3) This new DAC will be funding features that will help BTSX holders... ie: my plan to fund BTSX growth without diluting BTSX.   BTSX is just swapping its tech for BitUSD for the tech funded by the other DAC and both sides win.   As a result BTSX development funds will mostly be used for "bug fixes" and "porting features" rather than developing new features.
1). Diluting BTSX you mentioned in MAY this year , there were many opposer. but now sultation is change , BTSX was lunched successly .all inverster of AGS get profit.  recently after discussed with many BTSX holder in Chinese community. most of us can accept diluting BTSX for developing.
2).BTSX was lunched , if it value can grow up rapidly ,it can attract many people by without devalued by one of this clone.
3).I think most of BTSX holder can accept diluting BTSX for developing.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 18, 2014, 11:52:56 am
3).I think most of BTSX holder can accept diluting BTSX for developing.
Yes that's what I'm saying  +5%
At the end of the day it's up to the shareholders so let them decide.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 12:03:18 pm
What do you mean?
There was a VOTE snapshot ... to figure out initial distribution .. for what? if not VOTE!
if there was only bitUSD as asset on the "chain" .. then what's the snapshot good for?

I do not know all the details. It is clear there will be a big VOTE component.

I guess the question is whether VOTE will look more like BTSX + dilution.
From the last answer here -  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066 it seems people may be offered debit cards with BitUSD backed by VOTE. That sounds more like BTSX to me. (VOTE will also be able to offer greater incentives because of dilution.) But as I said we don't know all the details.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: vegolino on October 18, 2014, 12:07:02 pm
1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.

Now I'm confused? It is up to shareholders to determine if BTSX has a "hard cap of 2 billion". If shareholders deem it necessary they can vote in delegates that support delusion, right?

From the "How much is a new user worth?" thread (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0 (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.0)) it seems like +60% of the people are for delusion as long as there is a good plan. And many of the people who were against it change their minds and some even said it should be done if need be but only as a last resort.

So BTSX doesn't have a hard cap and doesn't have limited growth potential. Or at least I think it should be left up to shareholders to decide if it does.

Or have I missed something???
  +5%
If bytemaster think 2 billion cap is going to limit growth potential, than let's change it. If majority of shareholders wants to remove it than what is the problem?
 Please forgive me for any ignorance that I am not aware of regarding this issue.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 12:12:25 pm
I do not know all the details. It is clear there will be a big VOTE component.

I guess the question is whether VOTE will look more like BTSX + dilution.
From the last answer here -  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066 it seems people may be offered debit cards with BitUSD backed by VOTE. That sounds more like BTSX to me. (VOTE will also be able to offer greater incentives because of dilution.) But as I said we don't know all the details.
I am not an economics guy ... but from what I understand it doesn't make any difference for the bitUSD if it is backed by VOTE, DNS or BTSX .. the only difference is that the "market cap" of the bitUSD is split amongst the DACs.

It all breaks down to having different exchanges/DACs with different use-cases .. and DIFFERENT liquidity because of the use-cases.
If you are a trader and want to use bitGLD, you need to buy bitUSD via BTSX ... if you are interested in building a decentralized internet you should go to keyID ...

In the end, we will see a set of DACs which all trade the bitUSD ... with DIFFERENT spread and liquidity .. it's not that VOTE will reduce the 'value' of the BTSX DAC .. because it focuses on a completely different audience ..

In fact .. IMHO it will increase the usefulness of BTSX as people start reading about DACs and the bitUSD ...

</IMHO>
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 12:31:45 pm
I do not know all the details. It is clear there will be a big VOTE component.

I guess the question is whether VOTE will look more like BTSX + dilution.
From the last answer here -  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066 it seems people may be offered debit cards with BitUSD backed by VOTE. That sounds more like BTSX to me. (VOTE will also be able to offer greater incentives because of dilution.) But as I said we don't know all the details.
I am not an economics guy ... but from what I understand it doesn't make any difference for the bitUSD if it is backed by VOTE, DNS or BTSX .. the only difference is that the "market cap" of the bitUSD is split amongst the DACs.

It all breaks down to having different exchanges/DACs with different use-cases .. and DIFFERENT liquidity because of the use-cases.
If you are a trader and want to use bitGLD, you need to buy bitUSD via BTSX ... if you are interested in building a decentralized internet you should go to keyID ...

In the end, we will see a set of DACs which all trade the bitUSD ... with DIFFERENT spread and liquidity .. it's not that VOTE will reduce the 'value' of the BTSX DAC .. because it focuses on a completely different audience ..

In fact .. IMHO it will increase the usefulness of BTSX as people start reading about DACs and the bitUSD ...

</IMHO>

BitUSD backed by different DACs are not fungible.

It's more of a branding thing. BTSX introduced BitUSD and BitAssets. So currently BitUSD is the BTSX brand. NXT would have to call there's NXTUSD or NXTBitUSD as there's is different. However if VOTE corners the market on their version of BitUSD before we cement our brand then that will become 'BitUSD' and we will become something else like BTSXUSD. It would be like losing the brand name Bitcoin in my opinion.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 12:36:40 pm
BitUSD backed by different DACs are not fungible.

It's more of a branding thing. BTSX introduced BitUSD and BitAssets. So currently BitUSD is the BTSX brand. NXT would have to call there's NXTUSD or NXTBitUSD as there's is different. However if VOTE corners the market on their version of BitUSD before we cement our brand then that will become 'BitUSD' and we will become something else like BTSXUSD. It would be like losing the brand name Bitcoin in my opinion.
Hm ... sorry .. but I do not agree ..
bitUSD are bitUSD .. no matter in which chain they are .. and not matter which asset backs it ..
it's just a name that states .. 1 bitUSD is worth 1USD .. and it's traded in a bitshares DAC ..

the important thing for btsx to become is the exchange and trading platform for the bitassets such as GLD, CNY, and others ..
while the focus of DNS is the decentralized internet/registry
and VOTE is the decentalized voting ..
and MUSIC is for decentralized music trading ..

but once again .. i am not an economist and i may be completely wrong here  ;D
you are free to enlighten me here
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 12:45:39 pm
BitUSD backed by different DACs are not fungible.

It's more of a branding thing. BTSX introduced BitUSD and BitAssets. So currently BitUSD is the BTSX brand. NXT would have to call there's NXTUSD or NXTBitUSD as there's is different. However if VOTE corners the market on their version of BitUSD before we cement our brand then that will become 'BitUSD' and we will become something else like BTSXUSD. It would be like losing the brand name Bitcoin in my opinion.
Hm ... sorry .. but I do not agree ..
bitUSD are bitUSD .. no matter in which chain they are .. and not matter which asset backs it ..
it's just a name that states .. 1 bitUSD is worth 1USD .. and it's traded in a bitshares DAC ..

the important thing for btsx to become is the exchange and trading platform for the bitassets such as GLD, CNY, and others ..
while the focus of DNS is the decentralized internet/registry
and VOTE is the decentalized voting ..
and MUSIC is for decentralized music trading ..

but once again .. i am not an economist and i may be completely wrong here  ;D
you are free to enlighten me here

I am not an economist either and could be wrong.

But if Amazon says 'BitUSD accepted here' do you think I can make a Y DAC that issues $1 million worth of my BitUSD backed by 5% collateral? I do not think those are the BitUSD Amazon will accept as payment. When they say 'BitUSD accepted here', BitUSD will refer to one specific DAC - the one that controls the brand 'BitUSD' Others will be 'YBitUSD accepted here too' etc.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 12:52:58 pm
I am not an economist either and could be wrong.

But if Amazon says 'BitUSD accepted here' do you think I can make a Y DAC that issues $1 million worth of my BitUSD backed by 5% collateral? I do not think those are the BitUSD Amazon will accept as payment. When they say 'BitUSD accepted here', BitUSD will refer to one specific DAC - the one that controls the brand 'BitUSD' Others will be 'YBitUSD accepted here too' etc.
*agreed*

wouldn't make sense for the merchant to have to monitor several chains for a bitUSD payment

So .. in the end .. we need a mechanism for the enduser .. to flawlessly exchange 1bitUSD in DNS for 1bitUSD in VOTE .. or BTSX ..

hmm ...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: fuzzy on October 18, 2014, 12:53:30 pm

7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

"Completely transparent and auditable voting, done from anywhere using only that little cell phone in your pocket." Is now the first thing that comes out of my mouth when I tell people I meet in the public arena about bitshares.  Why?  Because you cant explain polymorphic digital assets to the everyday user without them smiling, eyes glazed over and searching for the nearest exit...  If you want to get their attention (and the network effect that will grow from it), you want to show them how absolutely mind blowing the voting DAC is in the context of  both history and our current political problems.  Nearly everyone intuitively understands THAT angle...

Once you do that, it becomes far easier to apply their newly formed conceptual model to the rest of the DACs.  Trust me, ive tried to explain btsx to people (and I know how to explain it)...but the voting DAC has proven in my experience to be far more effective at grabbin their attention and sparking their imagination..and sparking the imagination is the first step to the network effect. 

If there is one thing Absolutely necessary, but largely left untended....it would be the web wallet and mobile phone app.

Most people keep thinkin in terms of the west as the cash cow...but I assure you that in most 3rd world countries the cell phone is going to be our cheat code to reach a substantial level of adoption. Capturing THAT market will solidify our success...failing to will give our direct competitors a dangerous (and very effective) weapon to use against us.

We ignore mobile phone tech at our peril, imho.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: kisa on October 18, 2014, 01:21:38 pm
I am not an economist either and could be wrong.

But if Amazon says 'BitUSD accepted here' do you think I can make a Y DAC that issues $1 million worth of my BitUSD backed by 5% collateral? I do not think those are the BitUSD Amazon will accept as payment. When they say 'BitUSD accepted here', BitUSD will refer to one specific DAC - the one that controls the brand 'BitUSD' Others will be 'YBitUSD accepted here too' etc.
*agreed*

wouldn't make sense for the merchant to have to monitor several chains for a bitUSD payment

So .. in the end .. we need a mechanism for the enduser .. to flawlessly exchange 1bitUSD in DNS for 1bitUSD in VOTE .. or BTSX ..

hmm ...

a centralised bitUSD exchange / payment processor would resolve that *lol*
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Overthetop on October 18, 2014, 01:55:57 pm
That will split demand for bitUSD to a couple of bitshares "coins"...

bitshares_music bitUSD
bitsharesx_ bitUSD
bitshares_vote bitUSD
etc...
etc...
...
each time a new bitUSD version comes out... the bitUSD will get weaker and weaker... Am I missing something?
Except there is a great plan in place that will provide liquidity/demand to all different bitUSDs.

also worry about that...

How about using the bitusd backed by btsx directly instead of issuing new bitusd from Vote ?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 18, 2014, 02:02:12 pm
I have a possible solution that wouldn't make BTSX-only investors angry or worried for its future value. Why does BitsharesVote even need bitUSD? In other words, what is the specific reason for Bitshares Vote to need bitUSD?

If there is anything inside the client that wanted to be priced in dollars, you could do so by having Delegates publish price feeds for USD and choosing the median. If you wanted you could put the amount of Vote coins in parentheses like... $1.99 US Dollars (289 Votes). Behind the scenes it converts the US dollar amount into Vote coins (or whatever they're called.)

Also... I thought Bitshares has been advertising that all DACs will be linked together and that you can use bitUSD in any other DAC. Is that not the case anymore or was it a misunderstanding? As in each DAC can have their own bitUSD, but they won't be linked. I thought BTSX was supposed to be "the bank" of Bitshares DACs and we would implement atomic cross chain trading to use bitUSD in other DACs? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading

IMO splitting up the liquidity and volume of the bitUSD market is a mistake. It is already bad enough.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 02:24:07 pm
I have a possible solution that wouldn't make BTSX-only investors angry or worried for its future value. Why does BitsharesVote even need bitUSD? In other words, what is the specific reason for Bitshares Vote to need bitUSD?

If there is anything inside the client that wanted to be priced in dollars, you could do so by having Delegates publish price feeds for USD and choosing the median. If you wanted you could put the amount of Vote coins in parentheses like... $1.99 US Dollars (289 Votes). Behind the scenes it converts the US dollar amount into Vote coins (or whatever they're called.)

Also... I thought Bitshares has been advertising that all DACs will be linked together and that you can use bitUSD in any other DAC. Is that not the case anymore or was it a misunderstanding? As in each DAC can have their own bitUSD, but they won't be linked.

IMO splitting up the liquidity and volume of the bitUSD market is a mistake. It is already bad enough.

The reason to have bitUSD is the same like in Music. If you have an account open and you put 10 dollars that are converted in Notes, the problem is NOTES fluctuates so 1 month later his 10 dollars in his account are not anymore 10 $. So every chain absolutely needs bitUSD(or bitCurrency) if not we go back to original problem : stability.

One solution maybe the Bitmeat proposal every chain will mint bitCurrency  basically automatically not trading involved.
BitshareX will  still be use as a trading platform, everybody will use that platform for paying employee merchants and so on it will still grow at the same pace like before.
The AltDACS will use their own bitCurrencys for paying DAC expenses and offer the stability of bitUSD but nobody will keep money in VOTES . One more benefit having bitCurrency is the cross trading will be possible.

BitshareX will remain exactly what is is now. You Virtual Bank and Exchange and Forex all other DAC will be just businesses that use bitUSD. You don't go to Wallmart for you mortgage do you ?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 02:36:05 pm
Let's see if I understand correctly or I am completely wrong again.

BTSX will continue to be the bitusd creator, the decentralised bank. People value BTSX as much as they value a decentralized bank that no one can seize their assets, a trading platform that one can safely place market bets in market pegged assets.

VOTE will be more centralised (perhaps one big entity is buying up all the votes) and will process  bitsud to merchants and others. People will value this DAC due to it's centralised security and more easy mass adoption.

Votes can be exchanged with bitusd but bitusd is still only created by short selling in BTSX or bitusd can be created in VOTE DAC as well?
I assume that bitusd will be created by BTSX and this same bitusd will be accepted in VOTE DAC in exchange for votes through cross trading?

So essentially people will want to have bitusd (created from BTSX) to pay and acquire VOTES because they will anticipate that VOTE will have a bigger network effect due to its centralised nature. So at the same time by creating strong demand for bitusd to acquire shares in the VOTE DAC, you increase the demand for BTSX as well?

 

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 18, 2014, 02:59:17 pm
Maybe there are easier ways to bootstrap BitUSD adoption? Just sayin...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 03:05:43 pm
I hope I have lots of misunderstandings in my previous post. But unless someone confirms my misunderstandings what I am saying below is essentially a way of promoting bitusd and BTSX by getting it more centralized and effectively create bitusd IOU from the VOTE DAC which is centralized.

If that is the plan there is no surprise why BTSX is plunged.. How would anyone be confident that the centralized entity that owes VOTE DAC will honor bitusd IOUs? If these IOUs are not honored the whole system collapses...

Again, I hope I misunderstood completely VOTE.. I doubt that BM would have a plan like that..
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: svk on October 18, 2014, 03:16:31 pm
I hope I have lots of misunderstandings in my previous post. But unless someone confirms my misunderstandings what I am saying below is essentially a way of promoting bitusd and BTSX by getting it more centralized and effectively create bitusd IOU from the VOTE DAC which is centralized.

If that is the plan there is no surprise why BTSX is plunged.. How would anyone be confident that the centralized entity that owes VOTE DAC will honor bitusd IOUs? If these IOUs are not honored the whole system collapses...

Again, I hope I misunderstood completely VOTE.. I doubt that BM would have a plan like that..

I don't see why you think bitUSD will only come from BTSX, it only seems logical that MUSIC and VOTE will have their very own bitUSD system, complete with shorting and covering. The market rules would be the same, the only difference is that VOTE and MUSIC will have only that one asset, bitUSD.

You can then eventually do Atomic Cross Chain Trading to buy VOTEbitUSD with BTSXbitUSD for example.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 03:19:41 pm
I don't see why you think bitUSD will only come from BTSX, it only seems logical that MUSIC and VOTE will have their very own bitUSD system, complete with shorting and covering. The market rules would be the same, the only difference is that VOTE and MUSIC will have only that one asset, bitUSD.

You can then eventually do Atomic Cross Chain Trading to buy VOTEbitUSD with BTSXbitUSD for example.
*agreed* .. except that I am not sure MUSIC will only have one asset ... peetracks might only accept bitUSD ... but the blockchain might support other assets too ..

VOTE is different .. as I understand it ... it will be a product mainly for the U.S. first ..
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 03:21:24 pm


The reason to have bitUSD is the same like in Music. If you have an account open and you put 10 dollars that are converted in Notes, the problem is NOTES fluctuates so 1 month later his 10 dollars in his account are not anymore 10 $. So every chain absolutely needs bitUSD(or bitCurrency) if not we go back to original problem : stability.



But bitUSD is already stable, there's no need for more versions of it to be launched in every dac for the sake of stability. The real reason for launching a new bitUSD the funding model.  The vote dac probably needs it's bitUSD to become popular to be able to make its shares become more valuable, just like Bitshares-X and peertracks, rendering them all competitors.  The Vote dac could get hired by the government for an election and BTSX holders wouldn't gain a bean.  bitUSD could take off around the world, but if that bitUSD is issued by peertracks or the vote dac, BTSX holders get nothing.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 03:23:20 pm
I hope I have lots of misunderstandings in my previous post. But unless someone confirms my misunderstandings what I am saying below is essentially a way of promoting bitusd and BTSX by getting it more centralized and effectively create bitusd IOU from the VOTE DAC which is centralized.

If that is the plan there is no surprise why BTSX is plunged.. How would anyone be confident that the centralized entity that owes VOTE DAC will honor bitusd IOUs? If these IOUs are not honored the whole system collapses...

Again, I hope I misunderstood completely VOTE.. I doubt that BM would have a plan like that..

Yes indeed you misunderstood, the bitUSD will be issue on Vote DAC they will be collateraized  with VOTE's. No IOU no centralized. How Vote dac will work, that we don't know. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: svk on October 18, 2014, 03:24:13 pm
I don't see why you think bitUSD will only come from BTSX, it only seems logical that MUSIC and VOTE will have their very own bitUSD system, complete with shorting and covering. The market rules would be the same, the only difference is that VOTE and MUSIC will have only that one asset, bitUSD.

You can then eventually do Atomic Cross Chain Trading to buy VOTEbitUSD with BTSXbitUSD for example.
*agreed* .. except that I am not sure MUSIC will only have one asset ... peetracks might only accept bitUSD ... but the blockchain might support other assets too ..

VOTE is different .. as I understand it ... it will be a product mainly for the U.S. first ..

Yea you're probably right, it would make sense to have more currencies, bitEUR, bitCNY etc for different markets. I don't see them having bitGLD for example though, and of course MUSIC will have user issued assets in the form of Artist Coins.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 03:27:05 pm
Quote
I don't see why you think bitUSD will only come from BTSX, it only seems logical that MUSIC and VOTE will have their very own bitUSD system, complete with shorting and covering.

I am ok with that as long the same rules apply that apply to BTSX in order to create bitusd, so effectively all bitusd are equal by applying ACCT.

But, why would anyone would want to hold BTSX now? What is their benefit now? MUSIC, DNS, VOTE will have some utility. What is the utility of BTSX now? I hope is not only the creation of biteur, bitcny, bitbtc and bitGLD because the demand for those assets apparently is non existent currently...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: blahblah7up on October 18, 2014, 03:30:33 pm
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go.  BTSX might be worthless.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 18, 2014, 03:38:04 pm
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go. BTSX might be worthless.

This is the problem... There is nothing stopping other DACs from creating other Bitassets. BitsharesVote or any other DAC can create bitGLD, bitSLV, etc.. and at that point BTSX is pretty much useless if other DACs have the same functionality with more features built on top of bitAssets.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 03:40:02 pm


The reason to have bitUSD is the same like in Music. If you have an account open and you put 10 dollars that are converted in Notes, the problem is NOTES fluctuates so 1 month later his 10 dollars in his account are not anymore 10 $. So every chain absolutely needs bitUSD(or bitCurrency) if not we go back to original problem : stability.



But bitUSD is already stable, there's no need for more versions of it to be launched in every dac for the sake of stability. The real reason for launching a new bitUSD the funding model.  The vote dac probably needs it's bitUSD to become popular to be able to make its shares become more valuable, just like Bitshares-X and peertracks, rendering them all competitors.  The Vote dac could get hired by the government for an election and BTSX holders wouldn't gain a bean.  bitUSD could take off around the world, but if that bitUSD is issued by peertracks or the vote dac, BTSX holders get nothing.
Think how the bitUSD are issued in BitshareX ? The tokens in Vote DAC let's call them votes. You put 10 $ in value votes how you'll keep the same value one month later we all know that notes will fluctuate like btsx does ? The stability of bitUSD it coming by the way they are issued the whole trading thing. So you need inside chain system to mint bitUSD.
If you want to have the same bitUSD used by all DAC then all DAC needs to be on the same blockchain, etherum anyone ? If not you need bitCurrencys issued in each blockchain.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: blahblah7up on October 18, 2014, 03:41:23 pm
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go. BTSX might be worthless.

This is the problem... There is nothing stopping other DACs from creating other Bitassets. BitsharesVote or any other DAC can create bitGLD, bitSLV, etc.. and at that point BTSX is pretty much useless if other DACs have the same functionality with more features built on top of bitAssets.

...and more users.  The winning DAC will turn out to be "candy crush DAC" where you can buy bitGLD, vote for you local senator, and release coins for your latest home made dance album.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 03:42:55 pm
you should think that way:

No one will want a single DAC worth $10T .. would they?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 03:43:48 pm
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go. BTSX might be worthless.

This is the problem... There is nothing stopping other DACs from creating other Bitassets. BitsharesVote or any other DAC can create bitGLD, bitSLV, etc.. and at that point BTSX is pretty much useless if other DACs have the same functionality with more features built on top of bitAssets.

Then it will be a clone of BitshareX. It is a Voting dac. of course they could but why they would do it ? It is a different model. I mean sure Walmart could sell car but it is not their business.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 03:45:06 pm
If there was a way to combine the bitUSDs so it's effectively backed by the shares in all the dacs then that would make the whole system more stable wouldn't it?  At the moment bitUSD is backed only by BTSX, if it could be backed by BTSX, NOTE, VOTE etc it would get stronger and stronger and help protect all users from systemic failure (black swan event that causing flash crash in one of the dacs share price). 

I'm not sure if atomic cross-chain trading is the answer as I don't understand on a technical level. 

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: blahblah7up on October 18, 2014, 03:45:28 pm
you should think that way:

No one will want a single DAC worth $10T .. would they?

You are basing your assumption on the history of humanity?  Or the current distribution of wealth?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 18, 2014, 03:46:43 pm
I really like this Peter Thiel quote:

Quote
Poor distribution, not product, is the number one cause of failure. If you can get even a single distribution channel to work, you have great business. If you try for several but don’t nail one, you’re finished… People say it all the time: this product is so good that it sells itself. This is almost never true. These people are lying, either to themselves, to others, or both.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 03:47:12 pm
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go.  BTSX might be worthless.

No BTSX wouldn't be worthless if it bootstrapped BitAssets and particularly BitUSD first.

Luckily BTSX is way ahead, it has the best dev talent, DPOS & an awesome marketing in the pipeline. So it was very hard to see anything challenging it.

Until now...

VOTE will fork BitUSD, VOTE has DPOS and the best dev talent in the business (Bytemaster), they will apparently be using everything in the BTSX amazing secret marketing campaign too. (Offering BitUSD on debit card https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066 except VOTE has dilution so can offer big incentives to customers.) With whatever the secret sauce of VOTE is and BM saying it could be bigger, it seems they could easily bootstrap BitUSD first (including the brand name 'BitUSD') and I struggle to see them not adding BitAssets if they have the main market.

So while not all is revealed to me it currently seems BitsharesX is now in a position where it needs to add dilution so that we can compete with BitSharesY if it wants to bootstrap BitUSD.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 03:48:07 pm
different DACs will have different business models .. which will make THEIR base token (BTSX, MUSIC, VOTE) worth SOMETHING ..
if it is worth something you can start trading USD for it ON CHAIN ... and as all USD will be worth the SAME .. you can easily exchange them ...

if there was a DAC that would just ISSUE bitUSD on their chain .. you don't need to trade (ACCT) with them .. ACCT is user initiated .. independently of chains/delegates
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 03:52:42 pm
  At the moment bitUSD is backed only by BTSX, if it could be backed by BTSX, NOTE, VOTE etc it would get stronger and stronger and help protect all users from systemic failure (black swan event that causing flash crash in one of the dacs share price). 

I'm not sure if atomic cross-chain trading is the answer as I don't understand on a technical level.

So you are saying that is good to have bitUsd in each chain 6 :)

cross-chain trading is not the answer but it will be possible to do it. In fact you everything will still function without it. It is just a extremely practical nice future.

Here is a Eli5  cross trading explanation by Xeroc : https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10132.msg132196#msg132196
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 03:55:16 pm
Here is a Eli5  cross trading explanation by Xeroc : https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10132.msg132196#msg132196
So I guess I should go more technical next time .. hehe  :P
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 18, 2014, 03:58:33 pm
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go.  BTSX might be worthless.

No BTSX wouldn't be worthless if it bootstrapped BitAssets and particularly BitUSD first.

Luckily BTSX is way ahead, it has the best dev talent, DPOS & an awesome marketing in the pipeline. So it was very hard to see anything challenging it.

Until now...

VOTE will fork BitUSD, VOTE has DPOS and the best dev talent in the business (Bytemaster), they will apparently be using everything in the BTSX amazing secret marketing campaign too. (Offering BitUSD on debit card https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066 except VOTE has dilution so can offer big incentives to customers.) With whatever the secret sauce of VOTE is and BM saying it could be bigger, it seems they could easily bootstrap BitUSD first (including the brand name 'BitUSD') and I struggle to see them not adding BitAssets if they have the main market.

So while not all is revealed to me it currently seems BitsharesX is now in a position where it needs to add dilution so that we can compete with BitSharesY if it wants to bootstrap BitUSD.

So, essentially BTSX was Bitshares XT after all...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 04:07:47 pm
how will the outside world identify all kinds of BitUSD ?

A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ).....Failed.
B:What's wrong?Why can't you send BitUSD to me?Oh,yours is vote-usd。。。。。you need to use ACCT to turn your BitUSD on vote into BitUSD on BTSX and then transfer to me ?

Why are people so panicking!? you are cross chain trading all the time when you do a wire transfer from your local bank account to another bank account
or transfer funds to you credit card ...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 18, 2014, 04:14:11 pm
how will the outside world identify all kinds of BitUSD ?

A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ).....Failed.
B:What's wrong?Why can't you send BitUSD to me?Oh,yours is vote-usd。。。。。you need to use ACCT to turn your BitUSD on vote into BitUSD on BTSX and then transfer to me ?

Why are people so panicking!? you are cross chain trading all the time when you do a wire transfer from your local bank account to another bank account
or transfer funds to you credit card ...

Because every month it just keeps getting more and more complicated.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 18, 2014, 04:14:39 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)

(You may quit when you have evolved a solution that nothing else can beat.)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 04:16:18 pm
different DACs will have different business models .. which will make THEIR base token (BTSX, MUSIC, VOTE) worth SOMETHING ..
if it is worth something you can start trading USD for it ON CHAIN ... and as all USD will be worth the SAME .. you can easily exchange them ...

if there was a DAC that would just ISSUE bitUSD on their chain .. you don't need to trade (ACCT) with them .. ACCT is user initiated .. independently of chains/delegates

how will the outside world identify all kinds of BitUSD ?


A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ).....Failed.
B:What's wrong?Why can't you send BitUSD to me?Oh,yours is vote-usd。。。。。you need to use ACCT to turn your BitUSD on vote into BitUSD on BTSX and then transfer to me ?


A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(because there is no way to send to bitUSD to a diffrent chain without ACCT by default, this type of transfer, will be ACCT ) using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ ... Success
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 18, 2014, 04:22:12 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)

Yee, my Darwinian conclusion is that if VOTE is a mutation of BTSX, that is more fit for survival; it should inherit more (like 99%) of the genes of the original BTSX... and basically be snapshotted from BTSX and not from some random initial distribution that gives 40% of the stake to some entity with unknown purpose.

Or at least something like 10%/10%/80% - AGS/PTS/BTSX
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 04:23:58 pm
A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(because there is no way to send to bitUSD to a diffrent chain without ACCT by default, this type of transfer, will be ACCT ) using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ ... Success
Lol .. nice way of saying the same as I did ...
It's basically I wire transfer to a different bank which already use to take some extra time ...

I can see a flourishing arbitrage market between chains .. with maybe a few cents profit per trade .. (surely, ACCT might cost some extra tx fees)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 04:34:35 pm
how will the outside world identify all kinds of BitUSD ?

A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ).....Failed.
B:What's wrong?Why can't you send BitUSD to me?Oh,yours is vote-usd。。。。。you need to use ACCT to turn your BitUSD on vote into BitUSD on BTSX and then transfer to me ?

Why are people so panicking!? you are cross chain trading all the time when you do a wire transfer from your local bank account to another bank account
or transfer funds to you credit card ...

A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(because there is no way to send to bitUSD to a diffrent chain without ACCT by default, this type of transfer, will be ACCT ) using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ ... Success

Different dacs could have different collateralization rules could't they? And varying quality of dev teams, varying strength of DPOS etc.  So 1 bitUSD backed by BTSX is different to 1 bitUSD backed by vote.  Because what gives bitUSD is value is its redeem-ability for BTSX, and what gives BTSX its value is investors faith in the project as a whole, which will be different for every dac.  Another DAC issuing bitUSD exposes BTSX holders to risk, what if that dac collapses and the good name of bitUSD is tarnished?  They're pretending it's the same product when it's not.

Another point, bitUSD is a great name, shouldn't other dacs call their currency something else?  It's pretty cheeky to fork someone's product and name it the exact same thing isn't it? (unless it's somehow mutually beneficial, I'm still trying to figure out if it is or not).  But if they name it something else how can it remain market pegged as the name is the key for that working?

What if I launched a ratty arse dac with 5% collateral (vs BTSXs 200%) and issued bitUSD, can that then be 'atomically cross chain traded' and exchanged for BTSX? 

This leads to the conclusion that bitUSD is only as strong as it's weakest issuing dac, and it's weakest dac can be made deliberately weak as an attack vector.  Unless the bitUSD all being joined up via acct means it wouldn't collapse in the event of a black swan on one of the dacs, maybe it would actually be stronger.

Either way it the competing bitUSD of VOTE is a very harmful force for BTSX.  BTSXers should be snapshotted in imo.

This is a bit over my head so I could be getting this all wrong. 

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 18, 2014, 04:35:55 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)

Yee, my Darwinian conclusion is that if VOTE is a mutation of BTSX, that is more fit for survival; it should inherit more (like 99%) of the genes of the original BTSX... and basically be snapshotted from BTSX and not from some random initial distribution that gives 40% of the stake to some entity with unknown purpose.

Or at least something like 10%/10%/80% - AGS/PTS/BTSX

This. I hope something is considered for BTSXers. Not all of us were fortunate enough to grab a foothold in the ecosystem in the pre-BTSX days...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: graffenwalder on October 18, 2014, 04:47:13 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)

Yee, my Darwinian conclusion is that if VOTE is a mutation of BTSX, that is more fit for survival; it should inherit more (like 99%) of the genes of the original BTSX... and basically be snapshotted from BTSX and not from some random initial distribution that gives 40% of the stake to some entity with unknown purpose.

Or at least something like 10%/10%/80% - AGS/PTS/BTSX

This. I hope something is considered for BTSXers. Not all of us were fortunate enough to grab a foothold in the ecosystem in the pre-BTSX days...

I guess the next step in evolution would be to fork VOTE, with a distribution that would satisfy/compensate BTSX holders
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 04:51:29 pm


I guess the next step in evolution would be to fork VOTE, with a distribution that would satisfy/compensate BTSX holders

lol, yeah fork all the dacs, run all of them on one blockchain, all issuing bitassets in a global mega-dac and take over the world.  Shareholders could vote on whether to inflate the supply to fund the development of a new business to run on the dac.  There's gotta be 100 different ways of selling bitUSD.  Just do them all on one chain via 100 different businesses. 

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 18, 2014, 04:59:24 pm
lol, yeah fork all the dacs, run all of them on one blockchain, all issuing bitassets in a global mega-dac and take over the world.  Shareholders could vote on whether to inflate the supply to fund the development of a new business to run on the dac.  There's gotta be 100 different ways of selling bitUSD.  Just do them all on one chain via 100 different businesses.

This introduces many significant problems.

Relevant (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg112889#msg112889) reading (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg114390#msg114390).
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 05:03:12 pm
Different dacs could have different collateralization rules could't they? And
varying quality of dev teams, varying strength of DPOS etc.  So 1 bitUSD backed
by BTSX is different to 1 bitUSD backed by vote.  Because what gives bitUSD is
value is its redeem-ability for BTSX,
No .. every bitUSD is redeemable for any base asset on other DACs .. the price
bitUSD/BTSX and the price bitUSD/VOTE will differ over time. but the price
bitUSD/bitUSD and bitUsD/USD will always be 1.0 (+-spread)

and what gives BTSX its value is
investors faith in the project as a whole, which will be different for every
dac.  Another DAC issuing bitUSD exposes BTSX holders to risk, what if that dac
collapses and the good name of bitUSD is tarnished?  They're pretending it's
the same product when it's not.
Investors faith in the project (i.e. DAC) is what makes the value of the DAC
(i.e. the value of it's base asset) worth more. .. so the price of BTSX against
bitUSD rises .. not the value of a bitUSD in any DAC!!!!!

Another point, bitUSD is a great name, shouldn't other dacs call their currency
something else?  It's pretty cheeky to fork someone's product and name it the
exact same thing isn't it? (unless it's somehow mutually beneficial, I'm still
trying to figure out if it is or not).  But if they name it
something else how can it remain market pegged as the name is the key for that
working?
bitUSD is indeed a great name .. but what would you price a bitUSD-A in?
A bitUSD is worth a USD .. no matter where you trade it .. only differences
between DACs are the spread (read, time you need to buy/sell a considerable
amount) .. and the collateralization, which IMHO is priced into the
baseToken/bitUSD price and not in the bitUSD price itself .. because that one
is simpley $1!

What if I launched a ratty arse dac with 5% collateral (vs BTSXs 200%) and
issued bitUSD, can that then be 'atomically cross chain traded' and exchanged
for BTSX? 
If you wanted to trade with that DAC it's your own fault .. all bitUSD in BTSX
will always be backed by at least 150% BTSX. If you want to give them away for
bitUSD in a different chain that are backed by less.. then it's you own fault!

This leads to the conclusion that bitUSD is only as strong as it's weakest
issuing dac, and it's weakest dac can be made deliberately weak as an attack
vector.  Unless the bitUSD all being joined up via acct means it wouldn't
collapse in the event of a black swan on one of the dacs, maybe it would
actually be stronger.
Why would the bitUSD in BTSX collapse because some other DAC's base token is
beein worthless (which wouldn't harm their peg, btw).. or the other DAC uses
the wrong collateralization (which is just stupid)?

It is not that you can 'transfer' a "vote-bitusd" into the "btsx-bitUSD" ...
you will always have to trade 1:1 (or close to)

ALL BITUSD IN BTSX WILL ALWAYS BE BACKED BY BTSX!!! USING AT LEAST 150% COLLATERAL! .. PERIOD!

sorry for crying that out loud :)

Either way it the competing bitUSD of VOTE is a very harmful force for BTSX.  BTSXers should be snapshotted in imo.
I just fail to get the issue

This is a bit over my head so I could be getting this all wrong.
may be .. future will tell!



//edit: I apologize if parts of this post sound rude :D
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 18, 2014, 05:06:20 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)
Yee, my Darwinian conclusion is that if VOTE is a mutation of BTSX, that is more fit for survival; it should inherit more (like 99%) of the genes of the original BTSX... and basically be snapshotted from BTSX and not from some random initial distribution that gives 40% of the stake to some entity with unknown purpose.

Or at least something like 10%/10%/80% - AGS/PTS/BTSX

This. I hope something is considered for BTSXers. Not all of us were fortunate enough to grab a foothold in the ecosystem in the pre-BTSX days...

I guess the next step in evolution would be to fork VOTE, with a distribution that would satisfy/compensate BTSX holders

No need for that. From the current description it has almost nothing to do with the initial idea of the VOTE DAC. It should be called something simple like  BitshareXEthereum OpenGraphium Bazarium.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 05:09:35 pm
This introduces many significant problems.

Relevant (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg112889#msg112889) reading (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg114390#msg114390).
Wise words over there!
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: oco101 on October 18, 2014, 05:22:40 pm

What if I launched a ratty arse dac with 5% collateral (vs BTSXs 200%) and issued bitUSD, can that then be 'atomically cross chain traded' and exchanged for BTSX? 


Why are you trading then if you don't trust the other chain ? Please don't confuse trading with transfer.
If you trade bitUSDbtsx for bitUSD5% it means you have an account on the 5% chain to begin with. Don't trust don't trade.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 05:48:42 pm
Please correct me again, but I think VOTE snapshot was already taken the same day as DNS. VOTE shares have been already allocated and distributed. Correct?

Why are we having a discussion about VOTE shares to be airdropped to BTSX? BM says that VOTE just got more interesting because he has something in mind. This is irrelevant to BTSX. VOTE will just help BTSX adoption.

Although comments like "VOTE will surpass BTSX" are not doing very good at the moment I think. People can't trade VOTE, don't know what's all that about and comments like that make people think "I will sell BTSX now, get bitusd and when VOTE is out I will buy more VOTE". Comments like that create confusion and fear about BTSX future from a DAC that is not launched yet and hurt the BTSX confidence ihmo..

Finally, why the discussions about diluting BTSX by increasing the supply? Some people invested in BTSX due to the fixed supply. If you want just create BTSY with the right to increase unlimited the supply of shares and snapshot those shares to BTSX shareholders. People will then be able to choose whichever model they like, keep both of them for diversification or dump everything and go back to bitcoin..


Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 05:55:16 pm
Please correct me again, but I think VOTE snapshot was already taken the same
day as DNS. VOTE shares have been already allocated and distributed.
Correct?
correct!

Why are we having a discussion about VOTE shares to be airdropped to BTSX? BM
says that VOTE just got more interesting because he has something in mind. This
is irrelevant to BTSX. VOTE will just help BTSX adoption.
*agreed*

Although comments like "VOTE will surpass BTSX" are not doing very good at the
moment I think. People can't trade VOTE, don't know what's all that about and
comments like that make people think "I will sell BTSX now, get bitusd and when
VOTE is out I will buy more VOTE". Comments like that create confusion and fear
about BTSX future from a DAC that is not launched yet and hurt the BTSX
confidence ihmo..
Hehe .. it's called FUD :)

People still not grasp the bigger picture and start to interpret on things they
cannot possibly understand as a total as there is just to few information
available. period! I'd call for "weak hands" and those that spread FUD to
further strengthen their position.

Quote
Finally, why the discussions about diluting BTSX by increasing the supply? Some
people invested in BTSX due to the fixed supply. If you want just create BTSY
with the right to increase unlimited the supply of shares and snapshot those
shares to BTSX shareholders. People will then be able to choose whichever model
they like, keep both of them for diversification or dump everything and go back
to bitcoin..
BM stated that BTSX will not be deluted .. period!
Alternatively, a second chain could be launched by a competitor deluting their
base token. BTSX will certainly not do that.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: kisa on October 18, 2014, 05:58:36 pm
thanks mf-tzo for formulating clear questions  +5%
thanks xeroc for bringing some clarity  +5%
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 18, 2014, 06:07:50 pm
Please correct me again, but I think VOTE snapshot was already taken the same day as DNS. VOTE shares have been already allocated and distributed. Correct?

Why are we having a discussion about VOTE shares to be airdropped to BTSX? BM says that VOTE just got more interesting because he has something in mind. This is irrelevant to BTSX. VOTE will just help BTSX adoption.

Although comments like "VOTE will surpass BTSX" are not doing very good at the moment I think. People can't trade VOTE, don't know what's all that about and comments like that make people think "I will sell BTSX now, get bitusd and when VOTE is out I will buy more VOTE". Comments like that create confusion and fear about BTSX future from a DAC that is not launched yet and hurt the BTSX confidence ihmo..

Finally, why the discussions about diluting BTSX by increasing the supply? Some people invested in BTSX due to the fixed supply. If you want just create BTSY with the right to increase unlimited the supply of shares and snapshot those shares to BTSX shareholders. People will then be able to choose whichever model they like, keep both of them for diversification or dump everything and go back to bitcoin..

Vote shares have been allocated, but to my knowledge not yet distributed as there is no way to claim them. When Vote was snapshotted, its focus appears to have been completely different from what it essentially might now be -- a BTSX competitor.

We're having a discussion about airdropping to BTSX because presumably Vote is about to steal BTSX's thunder, and apparently BTSX's killer app BitUSD. It's not good to dilute the focus of BitShares across so many ventures when its main baby is still being nurtured. I believe the current market price is reflecting this sentiment.

Creating BTSY just to have dilutable shares is an absolutely terrible idea. Everything about BTSX is already considered to be way too complex/confusing, and further diluting the brand into even more paths is about the worst idea possible at this point in time IMHO. As has been said before, the shareholders should decide whether diluting BTSX is worth the costs/benefits.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: fluxer555 on October 18, 2014, 06:18:54 pm
lol, yeah fork all the dacs, run all of them on one blockchain, all issuing bitassets in a global mega-dac and take over the world.

So, Ethereum?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 06:22:58 pm
Quote
Hehe .. it's called FUD :)

People still not grasp the bigger picture and start to interpret on things they
cannot possibly understand as a total as there is just to few information
available. period! I'd call for "weak hands" and those that spread FUD to
further strengthen their position

Now I feel that I spoiled the FUD...

Quote
Creating BTSY just to have dilutable shares is an absolutely terrible idea. Everything about BTSX is already considered to be way too complex/confusing, and further diluting the brand into even more paths is about the worst idea possible at this point in time IMHO. As has been said before, the shareholders should decide whether diluting BTSX is worth the costs/benefits.

Confusing yes..That's why BTSX is worth millions and not billions yet...
My understanding is that there will be a lot of BTSY,Z,FX etc... chains that will distribute to BTSX with dillution and will try to steal BTSX thunder (which in reality they won't but rather increase adoption). VOTE is not one of those chains...I would expect one of these chains within 2015...

Bitusd is not the killer app of BTSX. Bitusd is just usd easily transferable through the net, without many fees and holding it gives you much higher interest and more security than keeping it in a typical bank.
BTSX is the killer app. and all the other DACs will also be killer apps that can use the easily transferable usd in the net. Bitusd is only the killer of bitcoin..
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 06:24:39 pm
Vote shares have been allocated, but to my knowledge not yet distributed as
there is no way to claim them. When Vote was snapshotted, its focus appears to
have been completely different from what it essentially might now be -- a BTSX
competitor.
How can it be a competitor when you cannot trade GOLD on it?!

We're having a discussion about airdropping to BTSX because presumably Vote is
about to steal BTSX's thunder, and apparently BTSX's killer app BitUSD. It's
not good to dilute the focus of BitShares across so many ventures when its main
baby is still being nurtured. I believe the current market price is reflecting
this sentiment.
lol .. bitUSD is not BTSX killer app .. how come all those guys in the U.S.
always thinks the USD is the only true thing in the whole world?! WTF?

You forget that most of the markets BTSX is good for haven't opened yet ..

Creating BTSY just to have dilutable shares is an absolutely terrible idea.
Everything about BTSX is already considered to be way too complex/confusing,
and further diluting the brand into even more paths is about the
worst idea possible at this point in time IMHO. As has been said
before, the shareholders should decide whether diluting BTSX is
worth the costs/benefits.
*agreed*
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 18, 2014, 06:35:41 pm
I'm listening to the latest hangout (https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/beyond-bitcoin-community-hangout-2014-10-17). And bytemaster said its incorporating the ideas of OpenBazaar and Ethereum. Now I'm also starting to wonder if it will have similarities to the Service Listings DAC (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8933.msg116114#msg116114) I've been mulling over (but where the services could be expanded to the selling of goods like eBay). 

I should probably hold my tongue until we are given more detail on this grand plan, but I'm sorry, from what little I am able to piece together, this no longer seems like just a Voting DAC to me. People invested in the Vote snapshot under the assumption that it was going to be a blockchain to just facilitate voting. Anyone analyzing the potential at that time should have been able to realize the network effect (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6508.msg88140#msg88140) was in the identity verifiers and not in the blockchain itself AND that the cryptography for voting doesn't even really require a blockchain (bytemaster admits this in the hangout) other than I suppose to make sure that ballot submissions haven't been censored. With the original purpose of the Voting DAC it should have been clear that it was not a big money maker (bytemaster also admits this in the latest hangout). If this new DAC idea really is a competitor to Ethereum and OpenBazaar, then it is a completely different beast and IMHO it deserves its own new snapshot rather than reusing the Voting snapshot that was taken in August 21 under completely different assumptions/goals.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 18, 2014, 06:37:07 pm
Saying things like "people don't grasp the bigger picture" and "people are spreading FUD" is a bit demeaning to the people sharing their honest opinions here. I think a lot of people voicing concerns have valid arguments, as basically everyone is speculating on what they think will happen at some point in the future... some speculate that implementing bitUSD on other chains will hurt BTSX, others think that it will help BTSX. Although implementing bitUSD and other Bitassets on alternative DACs may very well help BTSX from an adoption stand point, it may also hurt it and take potential volume and liquidity away from BTSX's bitUSD. The biggest weakness of BTSX at the moment are the volume and liquidity of the Bitasset marketplace, and it is understandable that some people are worried about this possibility of it never improving.

The future is uncertain as it is not a sure thing that popularity and use of the vote DAC (or any other DAC) will increase the value and use of the BTSX DAC, as they apparently have nothing to do with each other other than having Bitshares in their name. I think a lot of people are learning for the first time that BTSX's bitUSD will not be compatible with other DACs and that each DAC will be implementing their own version of bitUSD. I was under the impression BTSX would be the bank whose tokens tied into the other DACs and anytime bitUSD was used on another chain it would be bought in the BTSX market. I can't be the only one that thought this, and I think that it is telling from some of the replies here that others thought this was the case as well. This makes me rethink the economics of the DAC tokens as I have been judging them as a part of a whole, but now I feel like I must reevaluate them on an individual basis.

I can see a bit of a rift in the special interest groups as to AGS donators and PTS snapshot participants versus people that have bought into BTSX since it was released. Obviously the latter are probably not thrilled to hear that BTSX's biggest feature... bitUSD... will be used in what can be viewed as competing alternative chains. I'm still not sure exactly what to think about it, but my initial reaction is not one of bullishness. Maybe you are right and I can't see the big picture, but it is easy to see why some are not thrilled about other DACs implementing bitUSD off of the BTSX chain.

Furthermore, BTSX token holders basically have to take the word of the other DACs that they will not issue any other Bitassets like bitGLD and bitSLV. Since they are user issued assets and all it takes are delegates publishing price feeds, there is nothing stopping an alternative DAC from taking business away from the BTSX chain by issuing more Bitassets. It relies simply on trust that the other DACs will not do this. The potential for future business and adoption of Bitassets is how BTSX has garnered the value and market cap that it has. News that other DACs will take away from (at the very least) the bitUSD business changes the way someone would perceive the value of the BTSX token.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xh3 on October 18, 2014, 06:37:51 pm
Bytemaster may be influencing the market for the gain of 3I/himself.  Btsx (sell, sell, fud, wait, buy, rumor, sell)  PTS ( rumor, sell).  Not saying it's happening, but it wouldn't be the worst strategy  ;D.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 06:50:03 pm
Bytemaster may be influencing the market for the gain of 3I/himself.  Btsx (sell, sell, fud, wait, buy, rumor, sell)  PTS ( rumor, sell).  Not saying it's happening, but it wouldn't be the worst strategy  ;D.
LOL ... obviously you are new here ..

BM, usually ALWAYS publishes news once they are in his head .. he not even asks his PR guys :)
and received a lot of critiques for this already ..

I'd call BM one of the most honest people around in the crypto world
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 06:51:49 pm
From this thread:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg115513#msg115513

My guess is that BitShares X will keep the BitAssets meant for spending on "real world" goods/services, while BitAssets on other DACs will be kept only to pay for that DAC's "digital" services. This way DACs would all accept the BitAssets on their own blockchain for payment of services (they have to), but everyone else in the real world would still accept the BitShares X BitAssets for payment (so there shouldn't be any confusion).


The market makers in each chain they still need a certain depth before they can even provide liquidity. So there will be DAC's that will not have enough market depth to be able to mint bitUSD so what I think Darwinian Natural Selection will apply. If a DAC could not reach the market depth required it means that DAC business model is not good and there is not enough interests in it, or there need more marketing etc. Like for the brick and mortar company, only the one that are successful will survive (unlike the altcoins out there ) 
Being able to mint bitUSD it will be the equivalent of having a IPO of sorts.

Ok so basically the bitshares dac business model is:
1.  IPO/raising funds (with unpegged 'base asset' e.g. BTSX)
2.  Issue bitasset(s) (pegged)
3.  Generate demand for bitasset(s) by creating a popular service where they must be used.

Usually that asset will be a single currency which must be used on the dacs website.  A currency they have every interest in promoting to other merchants.  So arhags guess (quoted above) is not correct, especially seeing as the VOTE dac's bitUSD is getting its own debit card too.

Other dacs will market their bitUSD to merchants, this can't be prevented.  Different merchants will accept different types of bitUSD and they will be confused and so will users of those various bitUSD, they wont know if a place accepts it or not.  So how does merchant acceptance of multiple bitUSDs work? 

A bitUSD you can't spend anywhere wont be fungible with a bitUSD you can spend in lots of places.  How can they maintain the same value?  They are competing bitUSDs, there's no way around it.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Shentist on October 18, 2014, 06:55:31 pm

From this thread:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg115513#msg115513

My guess is that BitShares X will keep the BitAssets meant for spending on "real world" goods/services, while BitAssets on other DACs will be kept only to pay for that DAC's "digital" services. This way DACs would all accept the BitAssets on their own blockchain for payment of services (they have to), but everyone else in the real world would still accept the BitShares X BitAssets for payment (so there shouldn't be any confusion).


The market makers in each chain they still need a certain depth before they can even provide liquidity. So there will be DAC's that will not have enough market depth to be able to mint bitUSD so what I think Darwinian Natural Selection will apply. If a DAC could not reach the market depth required it means that DAC business model is not good and there is not enough interests in it, or there need more marketing etc. Like for the brick and mortar company, only the one that are successful will survive (unlike the altcoins out there ) 
Being able to mint bitUSD it will be the equivalent of having a IPO of sorts.

Ok so basically the bitshares dac business model is:
1.  IPO/raising funds (with unpegged 'base asset' e.g. BTSX)
2.  Issue bitasset(s) (pegged)
3.  Generate demand for bitasset(s) by creating a popular service where they must be used.

Usually that asset will be a single currency which must be used on the dacs website.  A currency they have every interest in promoting to other merchants.  So arhags guess (quoted above) is not correct, especially seeing as the VOTE dac's bitUSD is getting its own debit card too.

Other dacs will market their bitUSD to merchants, this can't be prevented.  Different merchants will accept different types of bitUSD and they will be confused and so will users of those various bitUSD, they wont know if a place accepts it or not.  So how does merchant acceptance of multiple bitUSDs work


i have the same problem. i don't get it, how it will function. so we need first a 3rd party to bundle all the possible bitUSD and provide the merchants with his own bitUSD? sounds really confusing and it is not starting yet. maybe some detailed explaination could be provided from I3, how this is planed to function?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 06:56:26 pm
especially seeing as the VOTE dac's bitUSD is getting its own debit card too.
What are you talking about!??! where is that quote that there will be a debit card for bitUSD on VOTE?!
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: svk on October 18, 2014, 06:58:28 pm
I think everyone needs to stop overreacting to incomplete information and making up scary stories for themselves.

How did we go from BM announcing that he was more excited than ever about VOTE to people somehow thinking VOTE is now a competitor to BTSX??

Why do people think having bitUSD on VOTE or MUSIC is bad for BTSX?? Is the fact that you can buy music for dollars on iTunes somehow bad for Forex markets??

You guys need to chill out..
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 06:58:38 pm
especially seeing as the VOTE dac's bitUSD is getting its own debit card too.
What are you talking about!??! where is that quote that there will be a debit card for bitUSD on VOTE?!

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10118.msg132066#msg132066
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Empirical1.1 on October 18, 2014, 07:05:46 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)

(You may quit when you have evolved a solution that nothing else can beat.)

Bytemaster and co. are extremely confident about the network effect they can gain using dilution as well as the fact they need it for infrastructure and development.

Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix.

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 


1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.

7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

Now I am someone more in favour of no dilution but there is no advantage to not choosing the general option Bytemaster is for after feedback. So now I'm for dilution.

Why? Put simply Bytemaster doesn't work for us. As he says above he's here to lead not code.

While I'm sure BM will fulfil his obligations to a DAC, he doesn't work for the DAC. So you can either be part of a DAC where the underlying toolkit development etc.  is largely lead by Bytemaster but there is no option where he is the one being lead on big decisions imo.

If BM is clear after feedback that dilution is required for the BitAsset network effect. Then...

The only possible Darwinian conclusion:

What does Bytemaster think is the best dilution model for BTSX? and pretty much do that.


Also to follow that formula more in general. To not support the direction of the key talent after feedback especially on big decisions leads to more of these mixed options and uncertainty.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Pheonike on October 18, 2014, 07:06:17 pm
For any chain outside of btsx you could just offer a price feed for that asset (vote,note) and create a leg like you do for any other asset.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 07:13:23 pm
@ Coinhoarder

How would you feel if NXT or whichever other crypto launched an asset calling it Bitusd? Would that mean that BTSX has no value anymore because now you could have bitusd on NXT? If that's the case I have news for you. NXT already has launched bitusd. It is just called Coino or something like that i think...

Bitusd is not the killer app of BTSX. BTSX is the killer app that you could have all kind of market peg assets with advanced trading options fully decentralized and secured. BTSX value is based on the economic fundamentals that support the creation of bitusd and all the other bitassets.

Other I3 DACs launching using bitusd with economic fundamentals can only do good for BTSX imho since we get more people on board interested in different things (DNS,MUSIC,VOTE,BANKING) and we stay on top of competition.

Quote
I can see a bit of a rift in the special interest groups as to AGS donators and PTS snapshot participants versus people that have bought into BTSX since it was released.

I can assure you that my breakeven of BTSX is at $45 mil market cap. I am not complaining though because when BTSX was launched at $20 mil market cap I bought some more and bought until they were at $70 mil and if I had any money left I would definitely buy more now since my stake is still insignificant compared to most of you in here... So don't feel that you lost much by not be being part of AGS-PTS 28th snapshot.. Back then there were many other opportunities that could have already increased my money x5 or x10..If you have bought BTSX upon launching at $20 mil you have doubled your money within a couple of months. I am still trying to build some position for the future and haven't taken any profit yet. So don't think that AGS-PTS shareholders are in a better position than someone getting in BTSX now.. People can get in Music IPO now cheaper than holding PTS...So it is not fair to say the distribution of VOTE or whatever shouldn't be given to AGS-PTS but to BTSX...

If all this is confusing, you can't imagine how confusing to make a proper decision was pre 28th snapshot..But in the end of the day the whole thing is so nice structured that no matter what decision you make you can't lose your money long term..Opportunity costs ofcourse exist, but losing money impossible..at least for the next decade.. I wouldn't say these things now but I want this FUD to go away (especially since I am broke and can't invest more) but BTSX is the safe bet to the coming DACs as Bitcoin is the safe bet to all altcoins..
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Pheonike on October 18, 2014, 07:14:11 pm
Bitusd is peg to a dollar not a DAC.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 18, 2014, 07:14:34 pm
How can it be a competitor when you cannot trade GOLD on it?!

Personally I think gold and other precious metals are overrated, but that is of course just my opinion. I'm sure there is quite a bit of value from BitAssets tracking the price of various commodities, but I think most of the value to a DAC comes from just having an asset with very good price stability. In fact, I would be fine with just a single BitAsset, e.g. BitCPI, and that's it. The relative volatility between BitCPI and most national currencies would be very small. We could even use a delegate proposal ratified by BitCPI holder votes to change the definition of the basket of goods the CPI tracks as necessary to keep up with the times (the delegates answer to the core asset holders and the BitCPI votes represent the interest of the BitCPI holders, so both sides would have to negotiate to get a fair re-definition that doesn't hurt either end of the short-long contract).

lol .. bitUSD is not BTSX killer app ..

I agree. BitAssets are not a killer app of BitShares X and the BTSX token. They are one of the killer apps of the BitShares toolkit which can be used for any DAC. The killer app for BitShares X is (hopefully) the network effect that comes from everyone agreeing to be paid a salary and accept currency for goods/services in the physical world using the BitAssets on the BitShares X blockchain.

Read more on this topic here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg113082#msg113082).

Usually that asset will be a single currency which must be used on the dacs website.  A currency they have every interest in promoting to other merchants.  So arhags guess (quoted above) is not correct, especially seeing as the VOTE dac's bitUSD is getting its own debit card too.

Maybe, maybe not. No one knows for sure. It all depends on which DAC can get the network effect. And I am sure it will be split among many different DACs, but I still believe there will be one blockchain that is far more dominant than the others just because it is far more convenient to have intra-blockchain transfers than it is to have inter-blockchain transfers. Again I will refer to the relevant portion in this post (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg113082#msg113082):

Network effect. In theory we could have a BitShares X clone for every city. This splits the market cap over many different DACs rather than unifying it into one (BTSX). While that does make things more scalable, it is also very annoying. Someone might keep most of their wealth in their home city DAC, get paid a salary in their workplace city DAC, and if they are visiting a neighboring city they need to move their money from the other DACs into yet another DAC to pay the merchant in the neighboring city. Moving money from one DAC to another using cross-chain trading is inconvenient and could even add up in costs. For convenience, people will tend to centralize to one particular DAC if it can handle the transaction volume. BitShares X (by virtue of being the first DAC designed for that purpose) can be that one DAC we all congregate around. Once the network effect is built around it (merchants set up the BTSX client software to receive payments, employers set up the BTSX client software to pay workers, people install the BTSX client software and amass their savings on the BTSX DAC) it will be too difficult for just another clone DAC to take away that spot from BTSX.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: CoinHoarder on October 18, 2014, 07:17:54 pm
I think everyone needs to stop overreacting to incomplete information and making up scary stories for themselves.

How did we go from BM announcing that he was more excited than ever about VOTE to people somehow thinking VOTE is now a competitor to BTSX??

Why do people think having bitUSD on VOTE or MUSIC is bad for BTSX?? Is the fact that you can buy music for dollars on iTunes somehow bad for Forex markets??

You guys need to chill out..

It is competing in the sense that it will take volume and liquidity out of the BTSX bitUSD market and put it in the BTSVOTE bitUSD market. Volume and liquidity is already a problem with the bitUSD market, and this could amplify the problem or make it not get better as someone that wanted bitUSD could simply buy it in any other DAC. I am not seeing the connection with how Bitshares Vote will for sure help BitsharesX in any way as they are two completely different chains. The only thing that is similar is they have the word Bitshares in their names. It could possibly help BitsharesX, but it is not a sure thing that there will be a "trickle down" effect as in the users of one DAC will end up using another.

Your example of iTunes and Forex isn't a good example, as people can't buy USD on iTunes... they already have USD when they purchase from iTunes (or whatever your local currency is.) If you could buy USD on iTunes and iTunes was in the business of currency exchange, then yes it would be bad for Forex. Similarly to how it could possibly be bad for the BTSX bitUSD market for bitUSD to be able to be purchased on a different Bitshares DAC. It takes business and fees out of the BTSX market and awards them to a different DAC's shareholders.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 07:29:54 pm
I think everyone needs to stop overreacting to incomplete information and making up scary stories for themselves.

How did we go from BM announcing that he was more excited than ever about VOTE to people somehow thinking VOTE is now a competitor to BTSX??

Why do people think having bitUSD on VOTE or MUSIC is bad for BTSX?? Is the fact that you can buy music for dollars on iTunes somehow bad for Forex markets??

You guys need to chill out..

It is competing in the sense that it will take volume and liquidity out of the BTSX bitUSD market and put it in the BTSVOTE bitUSD market. Volume and liquidity is already a problem with the bitUSD market, and this could amplify the problem or make it not get better as someone that wanted bitUSD could simply buy it in any other DAC. I am not seeing the connection with how Bitshares Vote will for sure help BitsharesX in any way as they are two completely different chains. The only thing that is similar is they have the word Bitshares in their names. It could possibly help BitsharesX, but it is not a sure thing that there will be a "trickle down" effect as in the users of one DAC will end up using another.

Your example of iTunes and Forex isn't a good example, as people can't buy USD on iTunes... they already have USD when they purchase from iTunes (or whatever your local currency is.) If you could buy USD on iTunes and iTunes was in the business of currency exchange, then yes it would be bad for Forex. Similarly to how it could possibly be bad for the BTSX bitUSD market for bitUSD to be able to be purchased on a different Bitshares DAC. It takes business and fees out of the BTSX market and awards them to a different DAC's shareholders.

I'm pretty sure the bitUSD in BTSX will always be the one people are pushed to invest in by the general bitshares community.  THe market peg is part of the toolkit though and other DACs will be using it.  People will need to deal with it.  IMO the question then becomes how do we name the various bitUSDs to minimize confusion yet still maintain some network effect.

DAC/altcoin/BTC are competing for capital which I think is basically the point here.  That will never change.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: fuzzy on October 18, 2014, 07:30:22 pm
A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(because there is no way to send to bitUSD to a diffrent chain without ACCT by default, this type of transfer, will be ACCT ) using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ ... Success
Lol .. nice way of saying the same as I did ...
It's basically I wire transfer to a different bank which already use to take some extra time ...

I can see a flourishing arbitrage market between chains .. with maybe a few cents profit per trade .. (surely, ACCT might cost some extra tx fees)

Ive been waiting for someone to realize this exact point.   This makes bitUSD...welll amazingly liquid and creates a situation wherein competition from other chains reinforces the peg. 

Of course if this conceptualization is incorrect feel free to give opinions. 

On another point, everyone here realizes my flawed level of idealism,  but even im starting to think of "products" like ethereum, and the likelihood they likely have teams set up just watching this forum for conversations like these so they can come to the same conclusions... copy them (or find ways to subordinate them) with a slight twist and use all their ample funding (and, like before, funding they do not even technically have) to pimp their product line on mainstream television with samuel l jackson as their celeb endorser.  Anymore, eagles early post about this being a war...make more and more sense.

While we are debating over these things we are actually completely overlooking the most DANGEROUS of the threats to this entire ecosystem (and thus, all our investments).   Imo, trust bm amd team (theyve proven their abilities) ...then if we disagree later (when the system has achieved flight), we can board different vessels that have slightly altered the methods to see which one gets us there faster/more comfortably...Just my two cents.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mf-tzo on October 18, 2014, 07:39:21 pm
 +5% to Fuzzy. I think that with this post we have created a lot of unnecessary FUD and some people gave good food for thought to competition...

Bottom line just trust BM and the devs..
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: amencon on October 18, 2014, 08:10:18 pm
Bottom line just trust BM and the devs..
I believe this is awful advice.  People should get in the habit of questioning things for themselves constantly.  This doesn't mean you can't take BM's intelligence and credibility or I3's track record into the equation, but I don't think blind faith is ever the answer.

There is a ubiquitous saying on the internet, "pics or it didn't happen", meaning a claim without proof or something of some substance to back it is meaningless.  I understand that there might be huge things around the corner that I3 are excited about, but I think it's a mistake to release these teasing statements about thinking big and being excited.  Without details the community really has nothing to discuss, though they will anyway as is evidenced in this thread.  Something that brings value to a Bitshares DAC is worthless until that value is realized by the DAC.  Hinting about it beforehand doesn't do anyone much of a service in my opinion.

There is enough about Bitshares to discuss and be excited about without getting enigmatic teasers dangled in front of us.  Once something doesn't need to be secret lets bring it out into the open and tear it to pieces, until then I see no reason to even bring it up.

Please note my intention isn't to slam BM or the devs at all.  It's human nature to be excited about big news and want to share with your friends and family or in this case your community.  I just think that while it's a completely understandable mistake, it is still a mistake nonetheless.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xeroc on October 18, 2014, 08:19:16 pm
I think it's a difficult act for BM to a) tell shareholders about recent intellectual improvements and b) not tell too much that competitors can rob the first-mover advantage ...

I'd say we should all calm down and wait for some more hard facts and information .. speculation leads to fear :-\
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 18, 2014, 08:22:49 pm
Bottom line just trust BM and the devs..
I believe this is awful advice.  People should get in the habit of questioning things for themselves constantly.  This doesn't mean you can't take BM's intelligence and credibility or I3's track record into the equation, but I don't think blind faith is ever the answer.

There is a ubiquitous saying on the internet, "pics or it didn't happen", meaning a claim without proof or something of some substance to back it is meaningless.  I understand that there might be huge things around the corner that I3 are excited about, but I think it's a mistake to release these teasing statements about thinking big and being excited.  Without details the community really has nothing to discuss, though they will anyway as is evidenced in this thread.  Something that brings value to a Bitshares DAC is worthless until that value is realized by the DAC.  Hinting about it beforehand doesn't do anyone much of a service in my opinion.

There is enough about Bitshares to discuss and be excited about without getting enigmatic teasers dangled in front of us.  Once something doesn't need to be secret lets bring it out into the open and tear it to pieces, until then I see no reason to even bring it up.

Please note my intention isn't to slam BM or the devs at all.  It's human nature to be excited about big news and want to share with your friends and family or in this case your community.  I just think that while it's a completely understandable mistake, it is still a mistake nonetheless.

 +5%
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 18, 2014, 08:24:24 pm
Bottom line just trust BM and the devs..
I believe this is awful advice.  People should get in the habit of questioning things for themselves constantly.  This doesn't mean you can't take BM's intelligence and credibility or I3's track record into the equation, but I don't think blind faith is ever the answer.

There is a ubiquitous saying on the internet, "pics or it didn't happen", meaning a claim without proof or something of some substance to back it is meaningless.  I understand that there might be huge things around the corner that I3 are excited about, but I think it's a mistake to release these teasing statements about thinking big and being excited.  Without details the community really has nothing to discuss, though they will anyway as is evidenced in this thread.  Something that brings value to a Bitshares DAC is worthless until that value is realized by the DAC.  Hinting about it beforehand doesn't do anyone much of a service in my opinion.

There is enough about Bitshares to discuss and be excited about without getting enigmatic teasers dangled in front of us.  Once something doesn't need to be secret lets bring it out into the open and tear it to pieces, until then I see no reason to even bring it up.

Please note my intention isn't to slam BM or the devs at all.  It's human nature to be excited about big news and want to share with your friends and family or in this case your community.  I just think that while it's a completely understandable mistake, it is still a mistake nonetheless.

+5% I assume most of us here are investors, not faithful gamblers.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: blahblah7up on October 18, 2014, 08:48:37 pm
All of you guys are doing great!  I am extremely proud of the collective reasoning powers of this forum.

Keep on following all this thread to its only possible Darwinian conclusion...

 :)

(You may quit when you have evolved a solution that nothing else can beat.)

Bytemaster and co. are extremely confident about the network effect they can gain using dilution as well as the fact they need it for infrastructure and development.

Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix.

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 


1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.

7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

Now I am someone more in favour of no dilution but there is no advantage to not choosing the general option Bytemaster is for after feedback. So now I'm for dilution.

Why? Put simply Bytemaster doesn't work for us. As he says above he's here to lead not code.

While I'm sure BM will fulfil his obligations to a DAC, he doesn't work for the DAC. So you can either be part of a DAC where the underlying toolkit development etc.  is largely lead by Bytemaster but there is no option where he is the one being lead on big decisions imo.

If BM is clear after feedback that dilution is required for the BitAsset network effect. Then...

The only possible Darwinian conclusion:

What does Bytemaster think is the best dilution model for BTSX? and pretty much do that.


Also to follow that formula more in general. To not support the direction of the key talent after feedback especially on big decisions leads to more of these mixed options and uncertainty.

This is mind twisting.  Like the end of the film "The Usual Suspects"

Are you suggesting that those who are capable of this evolutionary step will recognize the foley in BTSX, dump it, and move on with BM?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Shentist on October 18, 2014, 08:51:39 pm
+5% to Fuzzy. I think that with this post we have created a lot of unnecessary FUD and some people gave good food for thought to competition...

Bottom line just trust BM and the devs..

if i would  want trust, do you think i would invest in a trustfree solution?

if you watch startup or entrepeneur videos - the most advice you get is to try to dominate a niche and then conquer the world. with we conquer the world without outlined steps for the community to take action i am not satisfied with it.

it seems to me you all assume bytemaster is a "jack of all trades device" but i am sure he is not, he is human. it would be better to have more information/guidance on the forum where we are heading.

just to watch and not able to help much is a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: matt608 on October 18, 2014, 09:00:30 pm
What if there was a payment processor dac who's sole purpose was to allow merchants to accept all versions of bitUSD, or even better, all bitassets across all dacs via a single process.  That would be a way to peg the bitUSDs together as they would all be able to be exchanged for $1 of value with the merchant.  This payment processor dac releases shares.  They make money by taking a tiny fee (like bitpay) from the transaction, and/or they could charge a fee to accept another bitasset (from any dac) to be accepted by their network.

This way there would be no need for dacs to market directly to merchants to take only their bitasset, it would be mutually beneficial for all dacs to promote the payment processor dac to merchants rather than their individual bitasset.  This way if vote-bitUSD scores a big merchant, we all win, and if BTSX-bitUSD scores a big merchant, we all win too. 

All the value of the base assets ultimately comes from the faith of the investors in the success of the bitasset of that dac.  If we create a payment processor party dac that where if everyone uses that system it works better for everyone, then everyone will use that system because it lowers risk for all parties.

What if a dac promoties its own bitassets to merchants outside of the payment processor dac?

- It seems unlikely to happen much, the dacs are in very different niches, other than currency competition they are not in competition at all.  There's much more in it to be gained to just promote the bitasset payment processor than do it all themselves.  As well as a desire to generate good will between dacs.
 - A dac going 'rogue' and promting its bitassets to a large degree directly outside of the payment processor dac could be voted out by stakeholders of the payment processor shares perhaps? 


As this payment processor dac grows there becomes more and more incentive for dacs to keep using it because its payment network gets bigger and bigger.  The fee for bitasset signup could be increased perhaps as it grows to help the payment processor grow more and help the whole network of dacs. 

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: teenagecheese on October 18, 2014, 09:30:28 pm
It seems to me that having every DAC have its own version of bitUSD backed by its own token (btsx, bitVOTE, etc.) will cause each chain to have a weaker (larger spread & lower liquidity) peg. It also makes the ecosystem, which is already complex, even more confusing to understand and use. Wouldn't it be better to only have the one bitUSD backed by btsx that all the DACs use? Is that possible technically?

I assume the purpose for having each DAC have its own bitUSD is to create demand for its token and therefore generate income for the DAC, is that why this is the plan? If that is the only reason I wish fundraising could be accomplished in some other manner for the reasons stated in my first paragraph.

Could someone please explain the logic behind creation of unique bitUSD for each DAC and why this is a better choice than just having the one btsx bitUSD as I have explained it? I would really love to hear from bytemaster on this if possible. It would help me, and I'm sure a lot of other people in guiding their investments. With my current understanding I am wondering if I should sell.

Thanks!
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 18, 2014, 09:42:20 pm
It seems to me that having every DAC have its own version of bitUSD backed by its own token (btsx, bitVOTE, etc.) will cause each chain to have a weaker (larger spread & lower liquidity) peg. It also makes the ecosystem, which is already complex, even more confusing to understand and use. Wouldn't it be better to only have the one bitUSD backed by btsx that all the DACs use? Is that possible technically?

Please read this (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg112889#msg112889) and this (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg114390#msg114390). I hope that will explain why things are done this way.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: sumantso on October 18, 2014, 10:05:44 pm
Just read this thread and I realized I was being a jackass buying up BTSX :-[ Almost the entire of my BTC collection I have used up in the past few days.

Thanks a lot BM.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: onceuponatime on October 18, 2014, 10:08:33 pm
Just read this thread and I realized I was being a jackass buying up BTSX :-[ Almost the entire of my BTC collection I have used up in the past few days.

Thanks a lot BM.

I have read the thread and I continue to buy up btsx.

What's your take on the valuation?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: toast on October 18, 2014, 10:10:17 pm
The OP was not approved by toast's patent-pending PR Sanity Check
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: teenagecheese on October 18, 2014, 10:20:48 pm
It seems to me that having every DAC have its own version of bitUSD backed by its own token (btsx, bitVOTE, etc.) will cause each chain to have a weaker (larger spread & lower liquidity) peg. It also makes the ecosystem, which is already complex, even more confusing to understand and use. Wouldn't it be better to only have the one bitUSD backed by btsx that all the DACs use? Is that possible technically?

Please read this (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg112889#msg112889) and this (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg114390#msg114390). I hope that will explain why things are done this way.

Thanks arhag, those links really helped me to understand.

It seems my concerns were valid, but the creation of mulitple bitUSD may be the best choice for technical reasons. I think this will hurt bithshares x and the other DACs because the peg and liquidity will not be as strong, but if it is necessary, sobeit.

I3: I will say please try to limit how many times you rebrand / make huge fundamental changes. This has and still is a big problem with bitshares. Maybe take a step back and really try to map out how the whole ecosystem should be before moving forward much more. This figure it out as you go approach is really not good for adoption or retention of participants. I understand sometimes you have to make changes, but there have been too many in my opinion.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: zerosum on October 18, 2014, 10:25:34 pm
The OP was not approved by toast's patent-pending PR Sanity Check

Good to know...

even on page 13 of the thread  :)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: gamey on October 18, 2014, 10:28:02 pm
I3: I will say please try to limit how many times you rebrand / make huge fundamental changes. This has and still is a big problem with bitshares. Maybe take a step back and really try to map out how the whole ecosystem should be before moving forward much more. This figure it out as you go approach is really not good for adoption or retention of participants. I understand sometimes you have to make changes, but there have been too many in my opinion.

And then there those of us who like having these discussions discussed so that we can have input that we know is at least read and considered on its merits.

If they do like you say then there is no input, less vetting of ideas etc.

All they have done is grown the VOTE DAC which was never really a core DAC IMO.  BitsharesX has stayed pretty damn close to the initial target.   I can't think of any rebranding either ?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: teenagecheese on October 18, 2014, 10:50:11 pm
Discussion here is great. I'm talking about things like: protoshares-->bitshares pts --> bitshares genesis? and keyhotee -->keyID + DNS? ---> now bitVOTE is involed somehow?, and bitVOTE --> bitSOMETHING?

Definitely discuss it first, just don't go ahead and launch it and then discuss it and then change it. It's confusing. It will hurt the chances of success. Sometimes that is necessary because you learn from experience, but I think it could and should be done less. It takes a lot of effort to try to imagine how things will develop and to plan them out accordingly, but that is what needs to happen.

...and when I said bitshares I wasn't talking about bitshares x, I was talking about bitshares the brand, it is confusing, but I think it's gaining clarity and I just wanted to say my piece in hopes it will reinforce that clarity. Bitshares x has been done very well. Very clean, no rebrading (except for the bitshares xt which I'm o.k. with becasue it was early). I'm very impressed with bitshares x, they have a done a great job with that.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: blahblah7up on October 18, 2014, 10:56:59 pm
At least "the writing is on the wall".

If you go to the main page and look up on top of your browser it clearly states:

BitShares Forum - Reimagine Everything

 ;)
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: starspirit on October 18, 2014, 11:42:46 pm
Maybe the system that is most adaptive is the one that eventually dominates everything. Maybe what we need is improved process to manage maximal adaptation.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 19, 2014, 12:02:03 am
Bytemaster and co. are extremely confident about the network effect they can gain using dilution as well as the fact they need it for infrastructure and development.

Btsx is not being abandoned.  This project is designed to fund common infrastructure via dilution.   My job is to lead not code.   And btsx is dac suns job to maintain upgrade and bug fix.

Btsx is hamstrung with a fixed dev budget that will take time to grow. 


1) BTSX hard cap of 2 billion is going to limit its growth potential.

7) The biggest reason of all why we are doing this has to do with the fact that we can gather "network effect" faster with the VOTE DAC...

How we do all of that is still slightly under wraps... but trust me it may beat BTSX to the moon.

Now I am someone more in favour of no dilution but there is no advantage to not choosing the general option Bytemaster is for after feedback. So now I'm for dilution.

Why? Put simply Bytemaster doesn't work for us. As he says above he's here to lead not code.

While I'm sure BM will fulfil his obligations to a DAC, he doesn't work for the DAC. So you can either be part of a DAC where the underlying toolkit development etc.  is largely lead by Bytemaster but there is no option where he is the one being lead on big decisions imo.

If BM is clear after feedback that dilution is required for the BitAsset network effect. Then...

The only possible Darwinian conclusion:

What does Bytemaster think is the best dilution model for BTSX? and pretty much do that.


Also to follow that formula more in general. To not support the direction of the key talent after feedback especially on big decisions leads to more of these mixed options and uncertainty.

 +5%

This is the way I see it. BM had this great idea to dilute BTSX in order to market it and help it grow faster. Some people were strongly against that.
So now BM is focusing on something that can be diluted and help itself grow (Voting DAC)

I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)
^ This pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: James212 on October 19, 2014, 01:12:07 am
I3: I will say please try to limit how many times you rebrand / make huge fundamental changes. This has and still is a big problem with bitshares. Maybe take a step back and really try to map out how the whole ecosystem should be before moving forward much more. This figure it out as you go approach is really not good for adoption or retention of participants. I understand sometimes you have to make changes, but there have been too many in my opinion.
+5%

And then there those of us who like having these discussions discussed so that we can have input that we know is at least read and considered on its merits.

If they do like you say then there is no input, less vetting of ideas etc.

All they have done is grown the VOTE DAC which was never really a core DAC IMO.  BitsharesX has stayed pretty damn close to the initial target.   I can't think of any rebranding either ?

I would second teenagecheese on this.  I think what is meant is that it is starting to looking like I3 doesn't really have a thought through business plan/execution plan for BTSX.  If funding was a problem, the red flag should have been raised a while ago. 

 I have supported these 90 degree changes in the past, but seriously it is starting to looking like I3 is taking us through a  random walk in the woods.  This proposal with the VOTE Dac seems less like us capitalizing on an opportunity and more like us trying to compensate for financing problems with BTSX.   Additionally these provocative comments by BM regarding  the future prospects of BTSX will surely spook the market.  I don't think this was the best way to position this discussion.    With that said, my question is what would be the best way to move forward?   Is it really the best for Bitshares to launch this VOTE proposal, or do we just need to dilute BTSX so that we have financing and can continue to focus on getting this, our main DAC, up and running properly.   I remember there were discussions regarding dilution of BTSX recently, but then the issue was theoretical, now we are facing some real-word choices.   Right now, with what I know about this new VOTE project (which is not much at all) I would rather dilute, BTSX and fold any of the VOTE special features (if in fact they are special) into BTSX if that is possible. 

I lot of confusion has been thrown into BTSX at the moment.  All my future investments in the project have been parked until such time that this is resolved.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 19, 2014, 01:28:03 am
I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)
^ This pretty much sums it up.

We've come a long way during the past year in introducing the company metaphor and weening ourselves away from Bitcoin folklore associated with the currency metaphor.  There are many things our community now accepts as obvious that would have been dead on arrival last November.  Chief among them is the idea that you can (and should) pre-allocate some or all of a DAC's shares.  A year ago there would have been outraged cries of "unfair pre-mining!".  This might be valid if you are distributing a new currency.  It is not valid if you are launching a new company.  Companies always have an initial allocation of shares and then release more shares as they need to attract talent and capital.  Metaphors matter.

Companies do not generally promise to lock themselves into one set of rules like a good currency might.  Most companies only promise one thing to their shareholders - to be successful.  To provide a return on investment.  To grow the value of their shares and perhaps share some profits along the way.

Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: James212 on October 19, 2014, 01:31:18 am
I'm assuming the self-funding for the project will come through dilution of Vote shares? (something that could have been done with BTSX as well if we weren't so foolish to promise a 2 billion BTSX hard cap)
^ This pretty much sums it up.

We've come a long way during the past year in introducing the company metaphor and weening ourselves away from Bitcoin folklore associated with the currency metaphor.  There are many things our community now accepts as obvious that would have been dead on arrival last November.  Chief among them is the idea that you can (and should) pre-allocate some or all of a DAC's shares.  A year ago there would have been outraged cries of "unfair pre-mining!".  This might be valid if you are distributing a new currency.  It is not valid if you are launching a new company.  Companies always have an initial allocation of shares and then release more shares as they need to attract talent and capital.  Metaphors matter.

Companies do not generally promise to lock themselves into one set of rules like a good currency might.  Most companies only promise one thing to their shareholders - to be successful.  To provide a return on investment.  To grow the value of their shares and perhaps share some profits along the way.

Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

 +5% +5% +5%
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 19, 2014, 01:40:34 am
I3: I will say please try to limit how many times you rebrand / make huge fundamental changes. This has and still is a big problem with bitshares. Maybe take a step back and really try to map out how the whole ecosystem should be before moving forward much more. This figure it out as you go approach is really not good for adoption or retention of participants. I understand sometimes you have to make changes, but there have been too many in my opinion.
+5%

And then there those of us who like having these discussions discussed so that we can have input that we know is at least read and considered on its merits.

If they do like you say then there is no input, less vetting of ideas etc.

All they have done is grown the VOTE DAC which was never really a core DAC IMO.  BitsharesX has stayed pretty damn close to the initial target.   I can't think of any rebranding either ?

I would second teenagecheese on this.  I think what is meant is that it is starting to looking like I3 doesn't really have a thought through business plan/execution plan for BTSX.  If funding was a problem, the red flag should have been raised a while ago. 

 I have supported these 90 degree changes in the past, but seriously it is starting to looking like I3 is taking us through a  random walk in the woods.  This proposal with the VOTE Dac seems less like us capitalizing on an opportunity and more like us trying to compensate for financing problems with BTSX.   Additionally these provocative comments by BM regarding  the future prospects of BTSX will surely spook the market.  I don't think this was the best way to position this discussion.    With that said, my question is what would be the best way to move forward?   Is it really the best for Bitshares to launch this VOTE proposal, or do we just need to dilute BTSX so that we have financing and can continue to focus on getting this, our main DAC, up and running properly.   I remember there were discussions regarding dilution of BTSX recently, but then the issue was theoretical, now we are facing some real-word choices.   Right now, with what I know about this new VOTE project (which is not much at all) I would rather dilute, BTSX and fold any of the VOTE special features (if in fact they are special) into BTSX if that is possible. 

I lot of confusion has been thrown into BTSX at the moment.  All my future investments in the project have been parked until such time that this is resolved.

A path can seldom appear straight when one desires to achieve a consensus. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: roadscape on October 19, 2014, 01:47:33 am
Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

If a fixed supply hurts the competitive edge, has BTSX has broken that promise?

Some spin BM's comments as "BTSX cannot inflate, therefore DOA".
Is there any remote truth to this, and if so, what are our options for fixing it?
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 19, 2014, 02:11:20 am
I haven't read the whole thread... but want to let everyone know that we are working to achieve consensus and do so transparently.

BTSX isn't dead, it can and will grow naturally like Bitcoin.  It raised enough funds to get built, deployed and maintained.....  the original plan was assuming faster more viral growth due to the massive advantages over the 3 players ahead of us (BTC, LTC, and Ripple)....

The original plan was to fund many DACs that would compete against each other...  there were expected to be many BTSX clones each trading different assets and all having at least one BitAsset in common (likely BitUSD or BitGLD).   

The original plan was for me to work and help bootstrap / design these other DACs to have a robust ecosystem.

The only thing I see now is that the later DACs have learned from BTSX and thus people are starting to see that they might be a threat...

I am first and foremost loyal to those who have given so much and placed so much faith in me, especially during our darkest hour in the months from March until July.   

BTSX doesn't want competition, but we must all remember that I must build a solid product using funds from after Feb 28 too.




 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 19, 2014, 02:12:37 am
With that said, my question is what would be the best way to move forward?   Is it really the best for Bitshares to launch this VOTE proposal, or do we just need to dilute BTSX so that we have financing and can continue to focus on getting this, our main DAC, up and running properly.   I remember there were discussions regarding dilution of BTSX recently, but then the issue was theoretical, now we are facing some real-word choices.   Right now, with what I know about this new VOTE project (which is not much at all) I would rather dilute, BTSX and fold any of the VOTE special features (if in fact they are special) into BTSX if that is possible. 

I lot of confusion has been thrown into BTSX at the moment.  All my future investments in the project have been parked until such time that this is resolved.

 +5% +5% +5%

What I think should be done is an official proposal be created by I3 on what a good marketing plan would look like for BTSX (in great detail) and the stakeholders can vote for delegates who support or don't support dilution based off of what the stakeholders think of it.

I agree this poll really doesn't mean anything in the end. So why not do what I mentioned above and see where stakeholders really stand?

That's how I think we should approach it at least.
"BTSX is similar to a company where the stakeholders have a say". We keep saying that... Let's actually DO IT.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Stan on October 19, 2014, 02:28:29 am
Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

If a fixed supply hurts the competitive edge, has BTSX has broken that promise?

Some spin BM's comments as "BTSX cannot inflate, therefore DOA".
Is there any remote truth to this, and if so, what are our options for fixing it?

My point was that the existence of such an unpromised promise is a metaphorical trap that even we almost let ourselves be led into by the oft repeated can't infuse fresh capital assumptions of others.  If there was such a fatal promise made for the Feb 28th snapshot or upon release by DAC Sun Limited, would someone help us find it?  As far as i remember, the only thing specified was the initial genesis block distribution.

BitShares has always been about breaking the currency metaphor and embracing the company metaphor.  Companies aggressively infuse all kinds of value-increasing capital to compete.  That includes mergers and acquisitions and additional rounds of venture capital and people working for equity. 
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Rune on October 19, 2014, 02:42:22 am
Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

If a fixed supply hurts the competitive edge, has BTSX has broken that promise?

Some spin BM's comments as "BTSX cannot inflate, therefore DOA".
Is there any remote truth to this, and if so, what are our options for fixing it?

My point was that the existence of such an unpromised promise is a metaphorical trap that even we almost let ourselves be led into by the oft repeated can't infuse fresh capital assumptions of others.  If there was such a fatal promise made for the Feb 28th snapshot or upon release by DAC Sun Limited, would someone help us find it?  As far as i remember, the only thing specified was the initial genesis block distribution.

BitShares has always been about breaking the currency metaphor and embracing the company metaphor.  Companies aggressively infuse all kinds of value-increasing capital to compete.  That includes mergers and acquisitions and additional rounds of venture capital and people working for equity.

Even if there was a promise of no inflation, it would be irrelevant because the authority in a DAC lies with the delegates, and nowhere else. If elected delegates decide to hard fork to inflate, and no majority or significant minority of stakeholders oppose them, then it will happen regardless of any promises made earlier. The purpose of a DAC is to grow in network and in value, and as it is fast becoming apparent that no inflation without a huge bootstrapped network is not competitive, then I don't think it will be difficult to gain a majority for inflation any longer.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Mysto on October 19, 2014, 02:45:31 am
Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

If a fixed supply hurts the competitive edge, has BTSX has broken that promise?

Some spin BM's comments as "BTSX cannot inflate, therefore DOA".
Is there any remote truth to this, and if so, what are our options for fixing it?

My point was that the existence of such an unpromised promise is a metaphorical trap that even we almost let ourselves be led into by the oft repeated can't infuse fresh capital assumptions of others.  If there was such a fatal promise made for the Feb 28th snapshot or upon release by DAC Sun Limited, would someone help us find it?  As far as i remember, the only thing specified was the initial genesis block distribution.

BitShares has always been about breaking the currency metaphor and embracing the company metaphor.  Companies aggressively infuse all kinds of value-increasing capital to compete.  That includes mergers and acquisitions and additional rounds of venture capital and people working for equity.

Even if there was a promise of no inflation, it would be irrelevant because the authority in a DAC lies with the delegates, and nowhere else. If elected delegates decide to hard fork to inflate, and no majority or significant minority of stakeholders oppose them, then it will happen regardless of any promises made earlier. The purpose of a DAC is to grow in network and in value, and as it is fast becoming apparent that no inflation without a huge bootstrapped network is not competitive, then I don't think it will be difficult to gain a majority for inflation any longer.
I was about to say the exact same thing  +5%
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 19, 2014, 02:51:13 am
Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

If a fixed supply hurts the competitive edge, has BTSX has broken that promise?

Some spin BM's comments as "BTSX cannot inflate, therefore DOA".
Is there any remote truth to this, and if so, what are our options for fixing it?

My point was that the existence of such an unpromised promise is a metaphorical trap that even we almost let ourselves be led into by the oft repeated can't infuse fresh capital assumptions of others.  If there was such a fatal promise made for the Feb 28th snapshot or upon release by DAC Sun Limited, would someone help us find it?  As far as i remember, the only thing specified was the initial genesis block distribution.

BitShares has always been about breaking the currency metaphor and embracing the company metaphor.  Companies aggressively infuse all kinds of value-increasing capital to compete.  That includes mergers and acquisitions and additional rounds of venture capital and people working for equity.

I think most people are coming around to the notion that shares can and should be diluted to facilitate growth. I don't anticipate you'll receive much resistance from the community on that issue. Diluting BTSX for the right reasons seems like the path of least resistance compared to the alternatives.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Xeldal on October 19, 2014, 02:51:33 am
Above all, they promise to do everything possible to remain competitive.

The idea that the unspecified default behavior of a company is to promise a fixed set of shares for all time is a vestigial holdover from early currency metaphor thinking.  This is the red herring that needs to be faced squarely.

If a fixed supply hurts the competitive edge, has BTSX has broken that promise?

Some spin BM's comments as "BTSX cannot inflate, therefore DOA".
Is there any remote truth to this, and if so, what are our options for fixing it?

My point was that the existence of such an unpromised promise is a metaphorical trap that even we almost let ourselves be led into by the oft repeated can't infuse fresh capital assumptions of others.  If there was such a fatal promise made for the Feb 28th snapshot or upon release by DAC Sun Limited, would someone help us find it?  As far as i remember, the only thing specified was the initial genesis block distribution.

BitShares has always been about breaking the currency metaphor and embracing the company metaphor.  Companies aggressively infuse all kinds of value-increasing capital to compete.  That includes mergers and acquisitions and additional rounds of venture capital and people working for equity. 


This is making more and more sense to me. 

BTSX is the company or vehicle, and there are any number or existing 'currency' ideals traded within.  I think bitGold can satisfy my need for stability/unchanging/incorruptible/anti-dilutive 'ideal' currency needs.   The vessel that carries it needs to be more adaptive with greater tools for growth/development.   

Delegated dilution makes sense to me.

Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: arhag on October 19, 2014, 03:01:26 am
Even if there was a promise of no inflation, it would be irrelevant because the authority in a DAC lies with the delegates, and nowhere else. If elected delegates decide to hard fork to inflate, and no majority or significant minority of stakeholders oppose them, then it will happen regardless of any promises made earlier. The purpose of a DAC is to grow in network and in value, and as it is fast becoming apparent that no inflation without a huge bootstrapped network is not competitive, then I don't think it will be difficult to gain a majority for inflation any longer.

I would say the authority of the DAC actually lies with the shareholders not the delegates, since the shareholders can always fork it and change delegates if the delegates decide to take over the DAC and refuse to follow the wishes of the shareholders.

Also, you said "and no majority or significant minority of stakeholders oppose them." That is the problem. I think there is a majority of BTSX holders who oppose dilution, or maybe it's just a significant minority now because all of this discussion initiated by bytemaster has scared BTSX holders straight ;). Then again, I and no one else really knows that. This is why we need a quantifiable mechanism of determining the consensus of the shareholders. That's my cue to plug my proposals here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9603.msg125414#msg125414), here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.msg123045#msg123045), here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.msg123075#msg123075), and here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.msg123149#msg123149).

P.S. I like your merger and acquisition discussion here (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10145.msg132483#msg132483). I have a similar discussion but regarding a DAC splitting (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9654) into two instead of two DACs merging together. For either process, delegate proposals with shareholder ratification would seriously help with the process and would allow a consensus of the shareholders to be determined to know if they actually approved of such significant actions.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Ander on October 19, 2014, 03:09:36 am

I think most people are coming around to the notion that shares can and should be diluted to facilitate growth. I don't anticipate you'll receive much resistance from the community on that issue. Diluting BTSX for the right reasons seems like the path of least resistance compared to the alternatives.

Indeed, I am sure most of us would rather dilute than have you kill BTSX and just make VOTE the new BTSX+
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: bytemaster on October 19, 2014, 03:10:40 am

I think most people are coming around to the notion that shares can and should be diluted to facilitate growth. I don't anticipate you'll receive much resistance from the community on that issue. Diluting BTSX for the right reasons seems like the path of least resistance compared to the alternatives.

Indeed, I am sure most of us would rather dilute than have you kill BTSX and just make VOTE the new BTSX+

I started a new thread with a proposed unification of everything under BTSX and dropping the X and just calling it BitShares...
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Method-X on October 19, 2014, 03:25:40 am

I think most people are coming around to the notion that shares can and should be diluted to facilitate growth. I don't anticipate you'll receive much resistance from the community on that issue. Diluting BTSX for the right reasons seems like the path of least resistance compared to the alternatives.

Indeed, I am sure most of us would rather dilute than have you kill BTSX and just make VOTE the new BTSX+

I started a new thread with a proposed unification of everything under BTSX and dropping the X and just calling it BitShares...

It sounds fantastic! Once you've established BitShares as THE crypto to challenge Bitcoin, you will literally have developers throwing themselves at you. At that point you could create a BitShares Labs and work with some of the most brilliant minds in the world on your other ideas.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: jsidhu on October 19, 2014, 06:47:37 am
The of bitshares is not to challenge bitcoin but to work with bitcoin.. bitshares is the shares allocation and dac part of the crypto sphere as bitcoin is currency.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: xh3 on October 19, 2014, 08:44:27 pm
Subtract until it breaks. If we're going to sell bitshares to the world, we need to mystify people, not confuse them.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: Brent.Allsop on October 20, 2014, 03:05:13 am

Can we use VOTE DAC to vote what to do with PTS? :)

If you want something like this to get done, you only need to build enough consensus.  Once you have enough consensus, no matter how hard, it will just happen.  It is all in the consensus building, and measuring, quantitatively how many people are on board, who is not yet on board and why, and what it would take to get them on board.  Everything else is easy.

http://Canonizer.com can do this.  So, if you want something done, simply create a survey topic (like a modern dynamic petition in many ways) and once you have enough consensus, it will just happen.

What, exactly, is it that you want to happen with PTS?  And lets get started getting it done.

Brent Allsop





Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: mbaeichapareiko on October 20, 2014, 03:30:17 am
That was great news released on mumble, about the Vote DAC.   And the good news is if bts will benefit from the capital infusion from pts and ags, then it will be a win win for us.  I think its time to buy some more btsx now.  the price is looking good.
Title: Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
Post by: vikram on October 20, 2014, 08:40:09 pm
Locking to avoid further confusion. Refer instead to subsequent threads: