BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: alt on January 14, 2015, 08:10:22 am
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many people ask me to buy BITUSD or BITCNY to cover,
because there is not enough bitusd and bitcny at market now. what ever price.
this is not fair to the short.
so I suggest to stop market engine emergency, any thought?
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I agree with you.
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I'm one of the "victims", I don't know what to do but I do think the situation need some changes!
Thanks alt!
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+5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
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If the price is 0.01USD/BTS, and if there is no USD at market,
I think it's OK to allow shorter to cover the order at price 0.009, this is the last way.
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You mean not enough people want to buy BitUSD right now?
I wouldn't halt the market. If it can't stay operational in a situation like this how can we ever sell it in the future.
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You mean not enough people want to buy BitUSD right now?
I wouldn't halt the market. If it can't stay operational in a situation like this how can we ever sell it in the future.
I agree ..
I don't really get the issue now? Is it that the shorts made the wrong bet and have to cover though there are no sell orders?
would the expiration cover buy up bitUSD above the feed?
would the force cover?
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You mean not enough people want to buy BitUSD right now?
I wouldn't halt the market. If it can't stay operational in a situation like this how can we ever sell it in the future.
We want bitusd to cover but there's nowhere to go to buy bitusd except in the wallet market. Bitcny I think we have the btstrade.com to go to, I will give it a try.
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It's a market, it's not supposed to be fair imo..
What exactly is the problem? People do not want to pay the market price for bitUSD? I managed to short some bitUSD and bitCNY yesterday and so did a lot of other people (about 35,000 USD created yesterday), so the market seems to be working to me.
Yes the market is thin right now but that's also a consequence of a lot of trading action yesterday.
If the price is 0.01USD/BTS, and if there is no USD at market,
I think it's OK to allow shorter to cover the order at price 0.009, this is the last way.
Are there limitations on cover orders?
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many people ask me to buy BITUSD or BITCNY to cover,
because there is not enough bitusd and bitcny at market now. what ever price.
this is not fair to the short.
so I suggest to stop market engine emergency, any thought?
I think the market is working as intended.
It sucks for people who shorted and may have their margin called, but that is the deal they went into knowing this could be a possibility.
Also, if you want to avoid the margin call penalty, it is possible to just short to yourself at this new low price to cover your old short. You may likely need to buy more BTS to have enough collateral to do this though. And of course it means realizing the losses on your old shorts, as well as increasing your exposure to BTS (which could potentially fall even further). It's your choice whether that is better than just paying the penalty.
Other options include adding more collateral to keep the margin call price further away or even partial covering.
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yes, first he want to short to himself,but when he short, someone else buy his USD.
so he have to add collateral, and he can't do this from qt wallet, finally he have to ask me for help.
I feel the long and short is not balance
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would the expiration cover buy up bitUSD above the feed?
would the force cover?
I believe both the expiration and margin call covers would be limited to the price feed. In the current market environment, that means they will not be automatically covered but rather will sit there as an order until someone decides to sell BitUSD at the price feed (or short sell it at the price feed). Whatever damage there will be to the short seller will be inevitable at that point (although I suppose they could buy BitUSD above the price feed and sell it at the price feed if they are desperate to get their collateral back immediately), but his collateral BTS would still be locked up until the cover order is filled.
Although this is based on my current understanding, and I am not sure if it is completely accurate.
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I don`t know the detail regular of BID and ask.
but I `d to say some as macroscopic view .
we cannot protect short so much. short should have risk. this risk restrict people short too many BTA . so it can limit the total supply of BTA . if bitusd is over supply,I think the price cannot peg.
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You mean not enough people want to buy BitUSD right now?
I wouldn't halt the market. If it can't stay operational in a situation like this how can we ever sell it in the future.
+5%
This would be the last thing we need right now, if we stop the markets BTS will go down, and we will be in bigger trouble.
BTS is outperforming BTC at the moment.
BTC seems to be over dumped at the 900 CNY level. (Time will tell)
I think we should see a reversal pretty soon.
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yes, first he want to short to himself,but when he short, someone else buy his USD.
so he have to add collateral, and he can't do this from qt wallet, finally he have to ask me for help.
I feel the long and short is not balance
before he is shorting he can put a specific buy order so he knows that his buy order will be executed first (after he short) with very high probability ....
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I don`t know the detail regular of BID and ask.
but I `d to say some as macroscopic view .
we cannot protect short so much. short should have risk. this risk restrict people short too many BTA . so it can limit the total supply of BTA . if bitusd is over supply,I think the price cannot peg.
I agree with you. But the problem is I can't buy enough bitUSD or bitCNY to cover my short order in wallet market, I even tried to short some bitUSD, but it is automatically filled by other people which is my mistake not awaring of the existed BTS sell order though. But I really don't know what to do if I had awared. Thanks alt, he helped me to add collateral. But when 30 days deadline reached and there is still no bitUSD at then price I will let it expire I guess.
What will happen when this expire thing happens if there is no enough BTS buy/short order then? thanks everyone for a clarification on this question.
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many people ask me to buy BITUSD or BITCNY to cover,
because there is not enough bitusd and bitcny at market now. what ever price.
this is not fair to the short.
so I suggest to stop market engine emergency, any thought?
I think the market is working as intended.
It sucks for people who shorted and may have their margin called, but that is the deal they went into knowing this could be a possibility.
Also, if you want to avoid the margin call penalty, it is possible to just short to yourself at this new low price to cover your old short. You may likely need to buy more BTS to have enough collateral to do this though. And of course it means realizing the losses on your old shorts, as well as increasing your exposure to BTS (which could potentially fall even further). It's your choice whether that is better than just paying the penalty.
Other options include adding more collateral to keep the margin call price further away or even partial covering.
+5% +5% +5%
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I don`t know the detail regular of BID and ask.
but I `d to say some as macroscopic view .
we cannot protect short so much. short should have risk. this risk restrict people short too many BTA . so it can limit the total supply of BTA . if bitusd is over supply,I think the price cannot peg.
I agree with you. But the problem is I can't buy enough bitUSD or bitCNY to cover my short order in wallet market, I even tried to short some bitUSD, but it is automatically filled by other people which is my mistake not awaring of the existed BTS sell order though. But I really don't know what to do if I had awared. Thanks alt, he helped me to add collateral. But when 30 days deadline reached and there is still no bitUSD at then price I will let it expire I guess.
What will happen when this expire thing happens if there is no enough BTS buy/short order then? thanks everyone for a clarification on this question.
It will put in a BTS buy order, at the feed price
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I don`t know the detail regular of BID and ask.
but I `d to say some as macroscopic view .
we cannot protect short so much. short should have risk. this risk restrict people short too many BTA . so it can limit the total supply of BTA . if bitusd is over supply,I think the price cannot peg.
I agree with you. But the problem is I can't buy enough bitUSD or bitCNY to cover my short order in wallet market, I even tried to short some bitUSD, but it is automatically filled by other people which is my mistake not awaring of the existed BTS sell order though. But I really don't know what to do if I had awared. Thanks alt, he helped me to add collateral. But when 30 days deadline reached and there is still no bitUSD at then price I will let it expire I guess.
What will happen when this expire thing happens if there is no enough BTS buy/short order then? thanks everyone for a clarification on this question.
It will put in a BTS buy order, at the feed price
This I can accept fine. I'm worried it would eat down to the order at whatever low price to gather eough bitUSD for me. This case I'm doomed.
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stop market then bts die.
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stop market then bts die.
That's why you will have difficulties persuading 51+ delegates to not publish feeds any longer ... and this will only hold the market in 24h .. not earlier ..
no other chance to "stop" a market ..
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If a delegate stop publishing feed prices for stopping his own losses, the necessary response of the blockchain has to be to kick him out. This conflict of interest is quite frightening for the stability of the whole system...
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If a delegate stop publishing feed prices for stopping his own losses, the necessary response of the blockchain has to be to kick him out. This conflict of interest is quite frightening for the stability of the whole system...
even if he do it, it's not enough to stop the market, he must find many delegates that agree to do it!
The market will decide what they will do with delegates dependent of their actions and not so much of their suggestions/words/thoughts I suppose....
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you want more and more people to hold BITCNY and BITUSD to shopping,
and you don't care about how the shot position can cover his order,
do you really think this can work good?
I am afraid fewer and fewer people will short after this time.
we can run market engine continue, but I really think this is a problem and we should have a plane to fix it
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So why is no one shorting? No one bullish any longer?
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just let the market do what it do best.
There always risk when you short and everybody should know that and take the risk before short.
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you want more and more people to hold BITCNY and BITUSD to shopping,
and you don't care about how the shot position can cover his order,
do you really think this can work good?
I am afraid fewer and fewer people will short after this time.
we can run market engine continue, but I really think this is a problem and we should have a plane to fix it
+5%
这个类似支付宝，bitcny会沉淀在账户中，比如，我就有几十bitcny在账户中，很久没有动过
如果流通起来，会有大量资金沉淀。市场上的bitcny就会越来越少。
short的时候无法买到足够的bitcny
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So why is no one shorting? No one bullish any longer?
current price totally not about value,
I really believe BTS price should up to 1 dollar
but I will not short at this time, because I know I can't get any USD to cover my order,
and the price is out of control , or be control by somebody
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I think it's risky to have the primary BTS market on an external exchange. People are buying BTS on btc38 but not on the bitshares exchange itself, this can cause all sorts of weird issues.
When we're past this crash we should really do everything we can to move all BTS liquidity to the internal market, and use centralized exchanges as on/off ramps only.
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I think it's risky to have the primary BTS market on an external exchange. People are buying BTS on btc38 but not on the bitshares exchange itself, this can cause all sorts of weird issues.
When we're past this crash we should really do everything we can to move all BTS liquidity to the internal market, and use centralized exchanges as on/off ramps only.
also no more advertising of BTS/BTC pairs but BIT*/BTC pairs and bit*/Fiat gateways of course!!
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just let the market do what it do best.
There always risk when you short and everybody should know that and take the risk before short.
I know you are right
so the result is fewer and fewer people want to short,
and where is the way for BITUSD?
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但是问题又来了，不怕大户击穿BTS的卖单？1BTS产生了10000000000BTA？
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So why is no one shorting? No one bullish any longer?
i shorted bitEUR :)
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So why is no one shorting? No one bullish any longer?
i shorted bitEUR :)
For a nice 0% interest i would guess ;)
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So why is no one shorting? No one bullish any longer?
i shorted bitEUR :)
For a nice 0% interest i would guess ;)
0.101% (never under that even when I can)
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I think it's risky to have the primary BTS market on an external exchange. People are buying BTS on btc38 but not on the bitshares exchange itself, this can cause all sorts of weird issues.
When we're past this crash we should really do everything we can to move all BTS liquidity to the internal market, and use centralized exchanges as on/off ramps only.
+1
This is what BM suggested and visioned, and the right way to realise a decentralized exchange which BTS created for. But it has a long way to go as the market ended up like this: no one willing to short atm.
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just let the market do what it do best.
There always risk when you short and everybody should know that and take the risk before short.
I know you are right
so the result is fewer and fewer people want to short,
and where is the way for BITUSD?
when liquidity increase that will be not an issue anymore....
I really believe we participate on early days, after we have the relative orders future ready (v0.7) I am sure it will be a lot easier to cover orders (patience, we are almost there!)
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
I'm aware of here. But it's not enough. My cover order is due in 7 days, I'm worried if no one shorting situation lasts. And I think I'm not alone so to speak.
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I wouldn't interrupt the market at all but the 30 day requirement is maybe too quick, 90 days might be better.
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我觉得还是不要更改现有规则，不然会出现新的问题，我觉得没人SHORT是因为价格还没到预期的低价，价格到了，自然会有很多的bitusd,bitcny买单出现。前期short的人应该要明白自己的风险，
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I wouldn't interrupt the market at all but the 30 day requirement is maybe too quick, 90 days might be better.
Although 90 day shorts would be great, for the shorters. This is a very temporary problem.
I think then there will be another thread in the not to distant future, screaming shame there are not enough BitUSD buy orders.
This. When BTS(X) first launched, people were distraught because nobody was buying BitUSD. Why they didn't see this coming, I'll never know. When the system is young, times like this will be routine. Why would you expect there to be BitUSD buyers when BTS is pumping? Why would you expect there to be BitUSD sellers when BTS is tanking? These are the hurdles we have to accept with a free-market system like this.
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
I'm aware of here. But it's not enough. My cover order is due in 7 days, I'm worried if no one shorting situation lasts. And I think I'm not alone so to speak.
I'm not sure how much you need, but the way the market-maker bots on that trading pair are configured, they only place so much on orders at any one time. If you buy up the orders you see now, more will appear after a while. Just so you know.
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
I'm aware of here. But it's not enough. My cover order is due in 7 days, I'm worried if no one shorting situation lasts. And I think I'm not alone so to speak.
I'm not sure how much you need, but the way the market-maker bots on that trading pair are configured, they only place so much on orders at any one time. If you buy up the orders you see now, more will appear after a while. Just so you know.
thanks, you are so kind
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I don't understand the problem, I see there's like $10k worth of BitUSD selling at feed price, why are people saying they can't buy BitUSD?
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I don't understand the problem, I see there's like $10k worth of BitUSD selling at feed price, why are people saying they can't buy BitUSD?
They have price limit much lower than current feed price .
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
I'm aware of here. But it's not enough. My cover order is due in 7 days, I'm worried if no one shorting situation lasts. And I think I'm not alone so to speak.
I'm not sure how much you need, but the way the market-maker bots on that trading pair are configured, they only place so much on orders at any one time. If you buy up the orders you see now, more will appear after a while. Just so you know.
thanks, you are so kind
Thankful to both of you, LOL.
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
I'm aware of here. But it's not enough. My cover order is due in 7 days, I'm worried if no one shorting situation lasts. And I think I'm not alone so to speak.
Why don't you place a good size buy order for bitUSD a bit above parity here: https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd ($1.02/bitUSD?)
Then make an announcement; I suspect you will find takers for the amount you need.
I haven't formed a super strong opinion about the perfect system parameters, because it's not my decision how things get implemented. But, I think you are generally lucky that you are protected as a short by the price feed. I have thought 30day forced covering seems short, and maybe the 5% margin call penalty is not so nice. But in my opinion you are lucky that you are not forced to buy above the feed; I think this is too generous to shorts and not good for the system.
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I wouldn't interrupt the market at all but the 30 day requirement is maybe too quick, 90 days might be better.
Although 90 day shorts would be great, for the shorters. This is a very temporary problem.
I think then there will be another thread in the not to distant future, screaming shame there are not enough BitUSD buy orders.
This. When BTS(X) first launched, people were distraught because nobody was buying BitUSD. Why they didn't see this coming, I'll never know. When the system is young, times like this will be routine. Why would you expect there to be BitUSD buyers when BTS is pumping? Why would you expect there to be BitUSD sellers when BTS is tanking? These are the hurdles we have to accept with a free-market system like this.
A longer period would encourage more shorts, thereby increasing competition to short, which increases interest, which helps BitAsset demand. So it could be win-win for both sides.
It all depends how much more the 30 day requirement adds to the peg and I haven't really looked into it enough to know.
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There is some bitUSD for sale for BTC on bter.com 8) . Probably not at the price the shorts need it though.
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Can shorting users buy BitUSD on BTER, and then close their positions inside their own wallet by combining this BitUSD with their BitUSD shorts?
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Can shorting users buy BitUSD on BTER, and then close their positions inside their own wallet by combining this BitUSD with their BitUSD shorts?
You should be able to withdraw the bitUSD to your wallet from BTER.
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Can shorting users buy BitUSD on BTER, and then close their positions inside their own wallet by combining this BitUSD with their BitUSD shorts?
You should be able to withdraw the bitUSD to your wallet from BTER.
And then close the short? Does the availability of BitUSD on BTER solve the problem in this thread? I guess I'm missing something.
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alt, you can get BitUSD here: https://bter.com/trade/btc_bitusd there are several hundred on orders not too far from the price feed.
I'm aware of here. But it's not enough. My cover order is due in 7 days, I'm worried if no one shorting situation lasts. And I think I'm not alone so to speak.
Why don't you place a good size buy order for bitUSD a bit above parity here: https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd ($1.02/bitUSD?)
Then make an announcement; I suspect you will find takers for the amount you need.
I haven't formed a super strong opinion about the perfect system parameters, because it's not my decision how things get implemented. But, I think you are generally lucky that you are protected as a short by the price feed. I have thought 30day forced covering seems short, and maybe the 5% margin call penalty is not so nice. But in my opinion you are lucky that you are not forced to buy above the feed; I think this is too generous to shorts and not good for the system.
Thanks to the shorting guy with no price limit, I was able to cover it earlier. LOL...
I think this is a win-win action, these are all-time low prices indeed.
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Can shorting users buy BitUSD on BTER, and then close their positions inside their own wallet by combining this BitUSD with their BitUSD shorts?
You should be able to withdraw the bitUSD to your wallet from BTER.
And then close the short? Does the availability of BitUSD on BTER solve the problem in this thread? I guess I'm missing something.
Yes, it does.
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There seems to be $40,000 USD available at the price feed at the moment. I think all is well.
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I don't see what you're seeing, bytemaster.
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I don't see what you're seeing, bytemaster.
In the BitUSD market? 5M BTS short wall?
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I may be wrong, but isn't this thread talking about a lack of BitUSD BUYERS?
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I may be wrong, but isn't this thread talking about a lack of BitUSD BUYERS?
You have it backwards, concern was that nobody would be willing to sell/short. This morning was the first time buy wall was higher than short wall.
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Can you buy bitUSD at the feed price from the short wall?
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We don't have to stop anything.
This is the market.
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Can you buy bitUSD at the feed price from the short wall?
We now have about $15k short (without price limit). Yes we can.
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Can you buy bitUSD at the feed price from the short wall?
We now have about $15k short (without price limit). Yes we can.
How do you do that in the wallet? Buy bitUSD from the shorts at feed price....
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I may be wrong, but isn't this thread talking about a lack of BitUSD BUYERS?
You have it backwards, concern was that nobody would be willing to sell/short. This morning was the first time buy wall was higher than short wall.
uhhh... at least the second time.
I don't see what you're seeing, bytemaster.
In the BitUSD market? 5M BTS short wall?
It was never quite 5 mil, but you should know better than me...maybe it was eaten to less than 5mil before I can see it.
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Can you buy bitUSD at the feed price from the short wall?
We now have about $15k short (without price limit). Yes we can.
How do you do that in the wallet? Buy bitUSD from the shorts at feed price....
Due to the buggy wallet, you cannot see price limit on shorts. Please refer http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/asset?id=USD
We have 5,506 and 9,235 shorts without price limit.
So just buy bitUSD at feed price. That's it.
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Can you buy bitUSD at the feed price from the short wall?
We now have about $15k short (without price limit). Yes we can.
How do you do that in the wallet? Buy bitUSD from the shorts at feed price....
Due to the buggy wallet, you cannot see price limit on shorts. Please refer http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/asset?id=USD
We have 5,506 and 9,235 shorts without price limit.
So just buy bitUSD at feed price. That's it.
We can see the limit in new wallet (v0.5.0) now.