BitShares Forum

Other => Graveyard => Beyond Bitcoin [closed] => Topic started by: gamey on August 11, 2014, 02:36:25 pm

Title: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 11, 2014, 02:36:25 pm

As a delegate, am I helping the network by keeping my bitsharesx wallet open?

As a user ?

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: xeroc on August 11, 2014, 02:59:48 pm

delegates should be run in daemon mode .. no GUI!!

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: gamey on August 11, 2014, 03:53:45 pm

Quote from: xeroc on August 11, 2014, 02:59:48 pm

delegates should be run in daemon mode .. no GUI!!

Wallets have concept of closed and not closed even in CLI mode ?

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: xeroc on August 11, 2014, 04:18:39 pm

wallets can be closes in the terminal version too .. usually a session goes like this

Code: [Select]

./bitshares_client
wallet_open default
wallet_unlock 99999999 foobar-secured-password

The 99999999 indicate the time the wallet stays unlocked ... can chose a much higher number (up to 40 years) in the console verison than compared to the gui version(couple of hours)
That is a safty because gui is not meant for delegates!

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: gamey on August 11, 2014, 05:22:19 pm

What I am saying is I realize there is a locked and unlocked mode in the CLI/terminal version which is what I was curious about.  Although it is a good thing to always remind people to not run delegates in GUI.

I still do not know if a wallet being locked prevents it from acting as a delegate.  I would guess that it does not.

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: xeroc on August 11, 2014, 05:31:25 pm

Delegates MUST have their wallets unlocked as they ned the privkey to sign the blocks

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: nathansobo on August 13, 2014, 03:11:28 am

* Can Daniel delve into the reasons why he believes that BitUSD and BitGold will track the price of the real assets? I would love to hear a full discussion of the game theory behind the hypothesis. What are the common critiques of the theory and how would you address them?

* Are there plans for making BitShares more accessible to new users? The sign up process was pretty brutal with the requirement to have funds to register a name before I could send funds to myself.

Title: Re: Questions for August 15
Post by: bytemaster on August 13, 2014, 03:15:18 am

I'll be at Cryptolina on the 15th and 16th. 

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 13, 2014, 07:15:56 am

Well I just realized that I won't be around Friday either.  There was a large group of people last week, so if anyone cares to show up to have a pow-wow, feel free.  Maybe even record it if it is interesting ?

So.. continue with the questions in this thread.  There is also a reddit thread but I have reddit blocked due being a time waste of a site. :)  Getting more activity on reddit would be preferable, I just wanted a list here for myself and other questions people might have and can't make it to reddit.

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: fuzzy on August 13, 2014, 07:47:06 am

Quote from: gamey on August 13, 2014, 07:15:56 am

Well I just realized that I won't be around Friday either.  There was a large group of people last week, so if anyone cares to show up to have a pow-wow, feel free.  Maybe even record it if it is interesting ?

So.. continue with the questions in this thread.  There is also a reddit thread but I have reddit blocked due being a time waste of a site. :)  Getting more activity on reddit would be preferable, I just wanted a list here for myself and other questions people might have and can't make it to reddit.

Multiple locations is nice, a single one would be preferable.  I think Jabba might have an idea that will help with this though and (potentially) make it unnecessary for users to go to Reddit as they will be able to do it through BeyondBitcoinX.net. 

Quote from: bytemaster on August 13, 2014, 03:15:18 am

I'll be at Cryptolina on the 15th and 16th.

Any way to get a couple plugs while you are there?  It would be nice to get the team's newly forming connections onto the Mumble Server for a couple hangouts.  Who knows what possibilities might spark to life in this way...

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:39:45 am

What happens when a block is missed?  Is it skipped, or is does the next block signer shift their broadcast time backwards ?

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: xeroc on August 21, 2014, 10:45:42 am

Quote from: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:39:45 am

What happens when a block is missed?  Is it skipped, or is does the next block signer shift their broadcast time backwards ?

just skipped .. there is hole punched in the 10sec raster :)

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:54:10 am

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun? 

What in the network would allow detection of this type of attack if it exists ?

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: fuzzy on August 21, 2014, 11:15:37 am

Quote from: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:54:10 am

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun? 

What in the network would allow detection of this type of attack if it exists ?

Added to reddit.

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: friendsofbitshares on August 21, 2014, 08:34:38 pm

How is voting from a cold wallet being addressed?  Will we see this ?   If it isn't going to be done, why?   etc.

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:08:02 pm

There was talk of you convincing Vitalik  that nothing-at-stake does not apply to DPOS.  Could you go into what about DPOS vs a standard POS algorithm invalidates Nothing-At-Stake ?

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: tonyk on August 21, 2014, 10:13:09 pm

Quote from: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:54:10 am

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun? 

What in the network would allow detection of this type of attack if it exists ?

I believe this is THE MAIN reason for the 'Get What you asked for' order matching algo. Will be happy to hear Dan confirm/reject that.

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: xeroc on August 21, 2014, 10:34:46 pm

Quote from: TheOnion on August 21, 2014, 10:13:09 pm

Quote from: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:54:10 am

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun? 

What in the network would allow detection of this type of attack if it exists ?

I believe this is THE MAIN reason for the 'Get What you asked for' order matching algo. Will be happy to hear Dan confirm/reject that.

*confirmed* although i am not BM :P

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 22, 2014, 01:49:38 am

I would just like to state that even though the question is answered, Dan may very likely be asked anyway. :)

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: tonyk on August 22, 2014, 01:51:27 am

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 01:49:38 am

I would just like to state that even though the question is answered, Dan may very likely be asked anyway. :)

By you or by me?  :)

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: Stan on August 22, 2014, 02:04:08 am

Quote from: TheOnion on August 21, 2014, 10:13:09 pm

Quote from: gamey on August 21, 2014, 10:54:10 am

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun? 

What in the network would allow detection of this type of attack if it exists ?

I believe this is THE MAIN reason for the 'Get What you asked for' order matching algo. Will be happy to hear Dan confirm/reject that.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3895.msg50318#msg50318

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 22, 2014, 03:57:09 am

Just for clarity, the get what you pay for order matching algorithm protects against typical market participants front-running.  It does not provide a defense against a delegate reordering transactions.  I was wondering what can be done to protect against that ?   

It is like how banks were caught queuing up charges on bank cards and putting the largest ones first to maximize the number of overcharges.  Weird games can be played like that by being able to order transactions. 

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 22, 2014, 10:52:54 am

So now with DPOS we have this new type of miner, the delegate.  At some point the network becomes more in control by the delegates than by the dacsunlimited.  So what happens if there is a split in delegates where there is disagreement on which release to use.  Say 40% did not want to use a new fork and 60% proceeded to use it.  Have you ever thought how this might play out in real life ?  Thoughts ?

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: xeroc on August 22, 2014, 11:03:40 am

Actuall, I thought about this a little and an other question for BM would be:

can you imageing extra features and channels to communicate with the delegates (in particular the upcoming delegate that is to sign your transaction in the block)?

An example: I am a trader .. I see a big sell wall and want to buy it as quickly as possible .. wall street make that easy .. processing within milliseconds .. in DPOS you need to wait for 10 sec to be sure.
But, if you were able to send your transaction directly to the delegate, and if the delegate (the one that supposedly signs your tx) had a channel to communicate with the participant, they could make a side-blockchain deal!

i.e.
- I pay you 1BTSX extra fee if you were to guarantee to put my transaction in the front of your transactions ..
- you get 10 extra btsx for guaranteeing that I can buy that sell wall and no one else does.

sure all this is for bots to be performed inbetween-blocks. Maybe we could come up with sth and use that also for other features.

Just my thoughts .. hope some understand what I want to tell you :)

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

BTW I do not necessarily expect to get to every question tomorrow, er today.   There will always be future sessions. 

Possible questions so far from this thread -

When reading NXT forums I see a lot of concern "flash crashes".   Can you explain the latest thoughts on the failsafes included in BTSX ?  What exists currently, and are there current plans to change it ?

What does it mean technically to say that a wallet is "unlocked" ?  That the private key is exposed in memory?  Does a locked wallet process transactions ? 

What happens when a block is missed? Ok, so it is skipped.  Is there anything put on the blockchain saying that the delegate missed a block?  Is there just a null block in the chain?   Howzzit work ?

How is voting from a cold wallet being addressed?  Will we see this ?   If it isn't going to be done, why?   etc.

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun?   What in the network would allow detection of this type of attack if it exists ?  By this attack I do mean delegate.  I could frontrun on the block producing level.  In theory, there are opportunities where a delegate can determine it would be profitable to purchase an asset themselves and scalp trades.  I was curious about your thoughts on this ?

So now with DPOS we have this new type of miner, the delegate.  At some point the Bitshares X network becomes more in control by the delegates than by the dacsunlimited.  So what happens if there is a split in delegates where there is disagreement on which release to use.  Say 40% did not want to use a new fork and 60% proceeded to use it.   Thoughts on how this might play out in real life ?

Thin clients?  Plans?  placement on roadmap ?

See Xeroc's post

Quote from: xeroc on August 22, 2014, 11:03:40 am

Actuall, I thought about this a little and an other question for BM would be:

can you imageing extra features and channels to communicate with the delegates (in particular the upcoming delegate that is to sign your transaction in the block)?

An example: I am a trader .. I see a big sell wall and want to buy it as quickly as possible .. wall street make that easy .. processing within milliseconds .. in DPOS you need to wait for 10 sec to be sure.
But, if you were able to send your transaction directly to the delegate, and if the delegate (the one that supposedly signs your tx) had a channel to communicate with the participant, they could make a side-blockchain deal!

i.e.
- I pay you 1BTSX extra fee if you were to guarantee to put my transaction in the front of your transactions ..
- you get 10 extra btsx for guaranteeing that I can buy that sell wall and no one else does.

sure all this is for bots to be performed inbetween-blocks. Maybe we could come up with sth and use that also for other features.

Just my thoughts .. hope some understand what I want to tell you :)

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: xeroc on August 22, 2014, 11:59:54 am

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

Possible questions so far from this thread -

I can answer some right now if you want.

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

What does it mean technically to say that a wallet is "unlocked" ?  That the private key is exposed in memory?  Does a locked wallet process transactions ? 

Yes, private key is exposed in memory and has to be as you need it for scanning
TITAN transactions (no scanning if wallet is locked!!) and also for signing
transactions (or blocks if you are a delegate). There is no fancy way to
prevent that, except in-memory encryption.

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

What happens when a block is missed? Ok, so it is skipped.  Is there anything
put on the blockchain saying that the delegate missed a block?  Is there just a
null block in the chain?   Howzzit work ?

There just is no block .. the transactions that were supposed to go in there
are then stil unconfirmed and the subsequent delegate has to do the job (he has
to do it anyway).

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

How is voting from a cold wallet being addressed?  Will we see this ?   If it
isn't going to be done, why?   etc.

BM already answered that somewhere. If you send you stake into coldstorage you
vote but that transaction. Period. If you want to change your vote you need to
take your stake out of coldstorage and move them somewhere else.

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

Can a delegate in Bitshares X frontrun?   What in the network would allow
detection of this type of attack if it exists ?  By this attack I do mean
delegate.  I could frontrun on the block producing level.  In theory, there are
opportunities where a delegate can determine it would be profitable to purchase
an asset themselves and scalp trades.  I was curious about your thoughts on
this ?

Good question!

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

So now with DPOS we have this new type of miner, the delegate.  At some point
the Bitshares X network becomes more in control by the delegates than by the
dacsunlimited.  So what happens if there is a split in delegates where there is
disagreement on which release to use.  Say 40% did not want to use a new fork
and 60% proceeded to use it.   Thoughts on how this might play out in real life
? 

BM probably will answer sth. along: the market will decide!

Quote from: gamey on August 22, 2014, 11:11:45 am

Thin clients?  Plans?  placement on roadmap ?

Afaik, planned, probably not upcoming. probably not so high in the todo list.
Would like to know more about that too.



Hope you don't mind that I tried answering some questions. You can sure still
ask them in the hangout. Would be nice to self-check my answers Bingo-like :)

Title: Re: Questions for August 22
Post by: gamey on August 22, 2014, 01:24:38 pm

The point is not necessarily that I am asking because I need answers.  It is because I think the question to be a useful one to educate listeners or provide audio clips addressing the issue and as a place to keep track of the questions.   

Actually I sorta plan to ask Dan which questions he'd like to answer.  If someone else wants to ask specific questions they have the chance.  There's a show that needs content, therefore questions for the show are a useful thing.   Although it does help figure out the most valuable questions if they aren't answered. ;)