BitShares Forum
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: troy61 on September 22, 2014, 03:36:39 pm
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Is this true, the fee is gone if I cancel my order?
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Is this true, the fee is gone if I cancel my order?
No... there is always a required fee.
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Is this true, the fee is gone if I cancel my order?
No... there is always a required fee.
My understanding is that fees are non-refundable. But I would have answered the question "yes".
The wording of the question is itself ambiguous -- does "the fee is gone" mean "the fee is cancelled (and returned to the order's originator)", or "the fee is permanently out of reach (even if the order is cancelled)"?
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
Shoot me an email when you find the centralized exchanges with $0.003 fees... for now I will not even seek discount for the risks of using centralized exchange...
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
the fee is there in place. Right now its 0.003 cents USD - is that so high?
The fee should be there to prevent people from making not thought out orders in the first place. Its liek a chess game - if oyu touch the piece you go with it.
Dont see any problems with it.
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
You can "update an order" with a single transaction (technically) and pay a single fee... but every order on the blockchain burdens everyone so these are not "free" and everyone is playing the same fees / risks. If we had no fees then obviously someone could flood the network at no cost.
An arbitrage bot at normal exchanges charge you a percent of your volume... compared to a flat rate regardless of volume and depending only upon update frequency. The whole market moves slower... so assuming you were to update your orders every single block you would pay a total of $400 per day in fees. If you have a spread of 1% and work it with $40,000 in volume you would be break even.
The good news is that you rarely have to update your orders every 10 seconds. If you do it once per minute then your costs are $65 per day. If you are a large trader with $100,000 in volume then you will be paying $250 per day on BitStamp vs $65 per day on BTSX.
If you drop down to lower volumes then the big exchanges charge higher fees.
So I think the fee schedule for BTSX is better for "low frequency traders"... given the fee schedule on BitStamp there is a minimum spread of 0.5% for small orders.
Given a choice between paying .5% or paying $0.05 per order, I think BTSX is far cheaper for all orders greater than $10.
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
You can "update an order" with a single transaction (technically) and pay a single fee... but every order on the blockchain burdens everyone so these are not "free" and everyone is playing the same fees / risks. If we had no fees then obviously someone could flood the network at no cost.
An arbitrage bot at normal exchanges charge you a percent of your volume... compared to a flat rate regardless of volume and depending only upon update frequency. The whole market moves slower... so assuming you were to update your orders every single block you would pay a total of $400 per day in fees. If you have a spread of 1% and work it with $40,000 in volume you would be break even.
The good news is that you rarely have to update your orders every 10 seconds. If you do it once per minute then your costs are $65 per day. If you are a large trader with $100,000 in volume then you will be paying $250 per day on BitStamp vs $65 per day on BTSX.
If you drop down to lower volumes then the big exchanges charge higher fees.
So I think the fee schedule for BTSX is better for "low frequency traders"... given the fee schedule on BitStamp there is a minimum spread of 0.5% for small orders.
Given a choice between paying .5% or paying $0.05 per order, I think BTSX is far cheaper for all orders greater than $10.
This sort of info is marketing gold.
Really hope that when the time is right Brian & Co. capture these tidbits!
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Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
If we changed the code to make placing and cancelling orders free, what would stop malicious hackers from spamming transactions and wasting everyone's resources?
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To be accurate: placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.
This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
Shoot me an email when you find the centralized exchanges with $0.003 fees... for now I will not even seek discount for the risks of using centralized exchange...
I shoot you one right now: cancelling and placing orders is free on all exchanges.
This is what I am talking about: Placing and cancelling orders. I do not mind paying fees for trades. I understand that it is necessary to prevent abuse of the system, and I do not have a better solution right now.
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Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
If we changed the code to make placing and cancelling orders free, what would stop malicious hackers from spamming transactions and wasting everyone's resources?
Sure, this is the problem. I am aware of it. POW could be a solution, if it costs resources to submit orders then it is difficult for the bad boys to abuse the system. Similar to sending a message in bitmessage.
But one can argue that is effectively the same as paying money.
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You can "update an order" with a single transaction (technically) and pay a single fee... but every order on the blockchain burdens everyone so these are not "free" and everyone is playing the same fees / risks. If we had no fees then obviously someone could flood the network at no cost.
An arbitrage bot at normal exchanges charge you a percent of your volume... compared to a flat rate regardless of volume and depending only upon update frequency. The whole market moves slower... so assuming you were to update your orders every single block you would pay a total of $400 per day in fees. If you have a spread of 1% and work it with $40,000 in volume you would be break even.
The good news is that you rarely have to update your orders every 10 seconds. If you do it once per minute then your costs are $65 per day. If you are a large trader with $100,000 in volume then you will be paying $250 per day on BitStamp vs $65 per day on BTSX.
If you drop down to lower volumes then the big exchanges charge higher fees.
So I think the fee schedule for BTSX is better for "low frequency traders"... given the fee schedule on BitStamp there is a minimum spread of 0.5% for small orders.
Given a choice between paying .5% or paying $0.05 per order, I think BTSX is far cheaper for all orders greater than $10.
Thanks for these explanations. So you see only at quite large volumes, this becomes cheaper than centralized exchanges. And most of them have 0.2 % not 0.5 %.
So let's break it down: if the cancel/fill ratio is 1:1, BTSX is cheaper clearly.
If the cancel/fill ratio is 10:1 (I update 10 times my order before I get a fill), we have $0.03 per fill, and for a ratio of 100 0.3$ dollar and so on. Of course no-one would update every block I agree with this. But for example every 5 minutes is not insane, we would then have 288*0.003 = roughly $1 per day, just for submitting orders. So for a poor guy like me working with $100 capital to have some fun on the blockchain it is too expensive, given that my bot does not make 1% per day.
So you see: this prevents guys like me to start small and experiment with some trading algo. I understand you need to prevent abuse, but one must also facilitate use. I wrote in the other post: a simple POW system, like bitmessage is using, would be a possibility. Only for submitting orders, nothing else, so that the client stays light.
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I am sorry, but use for use sake is pointless and counterproductive by consuming more than you produce. Someone with as little capital as you have is not entitled to be subsidized by everyone who must store and scan every one of your transactions.
You need to make money playing a wider spread or trading manually on news.
How much value does your $100 order add to the market/peg. How much does it cost the network. I would argue the fees are doing their job perfectly.
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I am sorry, but use for use sake is pointless and counterproductive by consuming more than you produce. Someone with as little capital as you have is not entitled to be subsidized by everyone who must store and scan every one of your transactions.
You need to make money playing a wider spread or trading manually on news.
How much value does your $100 order add to the market/peg. How much does it cost the network. I would argue the fees are doing their job perfectly.
Oh my goodness, I am not worthy!
$100 is just a figure of speech for countless passionate geeks who can contribute to some serious volume and make this thing going somewhere.
I am arguing that fees for submitting/cancelling orders will prevent this cool project from growing. I will be happy to be proven wrong.
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I think the point of the fees is to prevent/minimize/disincentivize painting the tape/front running/HFT shenanigans.
BitsharesX has much lower overall transaction costs than any centralized exchange.
The way in which the transaction costs are allocated is a bit different, a paradigm shift if you will, and should serve to keep the trading more honest/fair.
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I shoot you one right now: cancelling and placing orders is free on all exchanges.
This is what I am talking about: Placing and cancelling orders. I do not mind paying fees for trades. I understand that it is necessary to prevent abuse of the system, and I do not have a better solution right now.
It's important to note that exchanges collect higher fees per trade to pay for the "free" features such as placing an order.
On top of it, exchanges make a lot of money. A decentralized exchange like BTSX doesn't have a single big entity raking it in. I think this fact alone means BTSX will always be cheaper in the long run. No need to pay the fat cats.
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I think the point of the fees is to prevent/minimize/disincentivize painting the tape/front running/HFT shenanigans.
BitsharesX has much lower overall transaction costs than any centralized exchange.
The way in which the transaction costs are allocated is a bit different, a paradigm shift if you will, and should serve to keep the trading more honest/fair.
Not sure the Flash Boys need to come into this discussion. Gladly, front running and things alike are not possible on a decentralized exchange, but this is because of the nature of the exchange, not because of fees.
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I shoot you one right now: cancelling and placing orders is free on all exchanges.
This is what I am talking about: Placing and cancelling orders. I do not mind paying fees for trades. I understand that it is necessary to prevent abuse of the system, and I do not have a better solution right now.
It's important to note that exchanges collect higher fees per trade to pay for the "free" features such as placing an order.
On top of it, exchanges make a lot of money. A decentralized exchange like BTSX doesn't have a single big entity raking it in. I think this fact alone means BTSX will always be cheaper in the long run. No need to pay the fat cats.
I get that. Trading is cheaper here than elsewhere. Liquidity provision is not.
You want a liquid market to ensure fair prices. More and more exchanges go to rewarding market makers.
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I shoot you one right now: cancelling and placing orders is free on all exchanges.
This is what I am talking about: Placing and cancelling orders. I do not mind paying fees for trades. I understand that it is necessary to prevent abuse of the system, and I do not have a better solution right now.
It's important to note that exchanges collect higher fees per trade to pay for the "free" features such as placing an order.
On top of it, exchanges make a lot of money. A decentralized exchange like BTSX doesn't have a single big entity raking it in. I think this fact alone means BTSX will always be cheaper in the long run. No need to pay the fat cats.
I get that. Trading is cheaper here than elsewhere. Liquidity provision is not.
You want a liquid market to ensure fair prices. More and more exchanges go to rewarding market makers.
Do they? A large liquidity provider on btsx faces lower fees than the same liquidity provider on centralized exchanges.
Your only complaint is that small fries like yourself are not subsidized by larger players. For small fries you get lower trading fees and spreads.
Overall everyone wins with btsx.
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Do they? A large liquidity provider on btsx faces lower fees than the same liquidity provider on centralized exchanges.
Your only complaint is that small fries like yourself are not subsidized by larger players. For small fries you get lower trading fees and spreads.
Overall everyone wins with btsx.
I am sorry if I expressed myself so poorly as to come across as complaining. I only wanted to present my insignificant case as an example for someone who could not trade here because I tend to update my orders (admittedly too) frequently. As many here argued the overall fees are still lower than elsewhere, which is is clearly a valid point, and the relay fee for each transaction (submit and cancel), is necessary to protect the network from abuse. My only concern was this might prevent volume from growing, which is what we all want, right? Will try to make my code update less then. Thank you all for your insight.
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Do they? A large liquidity provider on btsx faces lower fees than the same liquidity provider on centralized exchanges.
Your only complaint is that small fries like yourself are not subsidized by larger players. For small fries you get lower trading fees and spreads.
Overall everyone wins with btsx.
I am sorry if I expressed myself so poorly as to come across as complaining. I only wanted to present my insignificant case as an example for someone who could not trade here because I tend to update my orders (admittedly too) frequently. As many here argued the overall fees are still lower than elsewhere, which is is clearly a valid point, and the relay fee for each transaction (submit and cancel), is necessary to protect the network from abuse. My only concern was this might prevent volume from growing, which is what we all want, right? Will try to make my code update less then. Thank you all for your insight.
My tone could have been misinterpreted. I am glad you were able to understand the benefits and technical reasons for the approach.